41 replies to this topic

[RealRacing]

Bahrain produced a great race, especially after the SC. Can we presume that if the fuel limits are increased (and hopefully other limitations relaxed), the probability of having more races like this or, at least, more stints like these, will be better?

 

Will Bahrain serve as a lesson to F1's stakeholders that entertainment is what's mostly needed and make them straighten its course even if it means making changes mid-season? 

[PayasYouRace]

It works now. Don't change anything.

[Tourgott]

It works now. Don't change anything.

 

It only worked because there were no fuel issues after the safety car.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Even before the safety car we had plenty of fights and overtaking behind LH and NR.

[Jon83]

It was a good show today, no doubt about it. 

 

Tyres were still too much of a factor IMO and without the safety car, Hamilton would have won with a fair chunk of time in hand. The first stint battle between the two was the best moment of the race. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

It only worked because there were no fuel issues after the safety car.

 

I think it worked because the entire field was bunched up with 10 laps to go and you had cars on different tires, and some cars out of position. 

[dweller23]

I think it worked because the entire field was bunched up with 10 laps to go and you had cars on different tires, and some cars out of position. 

This. Pretty much like Silverstone 2013.

[Andrew Hope]

Entertainment is not "what's mostly needed". What's mostly needed is fairness and the acceptance that not every race is going to come down to a last-lap pass, and the response to Mercedes dominating is for the other teams to step it up, not for them to tear Merc down.

[V8 Fireworks]

And....?

 

Surely FOM & Bernie would not be displeased with "race to the flag" rule, requiring a double file restart with 10 laps to go....

[DanardiF1]

Bahrain produced a great race, especially after the SC. Can we presume that if the fuel limits are increased (and hopefully other limitations relaxed), the probability of having more races like this or, at least, more stints like these, will be better?

 

Will Bahrain serve as a lesson to F1's stakeholders that entertainment is what's mostly needed and make them straighten its course even if it means making changes mid-season? 

 

I thought the race was better before the Safety Car. Despite the bigger gaps there were individual pockets of racing that were developing nicely.

[Tourgott]

Even before the safety car we had plenty of fights and overtaking behind LH and NR.

 

Only boring DRS, fuel and tire saving overtakes. This has nothing to do with F1.

At the end HAM and ROS had the same tires (prime vs option but there was no difference) and they had not to save fuel. This was good racing.

[spacekid]

It was a very exciting race. Although it was good up until that point, Maldonado cranked up the excitement. If you look closely though, a lot of went on before that was DRS passes, I didn't notice many multi lap battles going on.

F1 is as 'fixed' now as it was 'broken' before. China could be a classic race, or a total snooze fest.

Edited by spacekid, 06 April 2014 - 17:29.

[RealRacing]

Yeah but why does it work after the SC? Of course because they are all together but also because they have more margin with the fuel. If the limit was increased to allow similar pushing to after the SC, we'd have better races anyway. The question is, is this doable without major changes to the cars?

[Jon83]

Maybe 5 laps behind a safety car 2/3 of a way through each race will be a new regulation? 

[stewie]

I think it all got a bit Indycar with the late safety car period - having the cars all together, and some out of position (as someone noted above), gave for a massive fight we wouldn't have seen without the SC. Wouldn't want it all the time but it certainly does make for an exciting watch.

[RealRacing]

Entertainment is not "what's mostly needed". What's mostly needed is fairness and the acceptance that not every race is going to come down to a last-lap pass, and the response to Mercedes dominating is for the other teams to step it up, not for them to tear Merc down.

I'm not expecting all races to be like this, that would be unrealistic. However, there are changes that could be made to increase the probability. Never mentioned anything about tearing Merc down...

[Tourgott]

Maybe 5 laps behind a safety car 2/3 of a way through each race will be a new regulation? 

 

I thought exactly the same.  

Even if it was planned it couldn't be better. The constellation was perfect.

[Ickx]

It only worked because there were no fuel issues after the safety car.

Listening to the radio at the pit feed Hamilton was ordered early in the race to stop saving fuel and just drive. They were safe early. 

[SPBHM]

I don't think the SC was such a big deal, it helped, but we had some great fights before the SC, and it's a shame they spent so much time behind the SC waiting for the lapped cars, they need to improve that.

[Ickx]

Only boring DRS, fuel and tire saving overtakes. This has nothing to do with F1.

At the end HAM and ROS had the same tires (prime vs option but there was no difference) and they had not to save fuel. This was good racing.

Since when?  

[noikeee]

Uh, the race was pretty damn fantastic well before the safety car and it would've played out pretty well without it. Maybe Rosberg wouldn't have caught Hamilton but he did have a tyre advantage nevertheless and we were set for a thrilling Force India vs Williams scrap for the podium anyway as they were on different strategies.

 

No doubt the SC helped bunch everyone up but to say the entertainment was all because of it is hugely misleading to say the least.

 

Re the topic, it won't change crap. People will shut up now for 2 weeks that F1 is boring then everyone - the teams, the FIA, Bernie, the fans - will go all like headless chickens the next time we have a boring race. How about we just enjoy what happened eh?

[PayasYouRace]

It works now. Don't change anything.

 

For the record, I was thinking before the SC as much as anything. It's not like a boring race was livened up by bunching everyone together at the end. Without the SC it would still have been an excellent race.

[Massa_f1]

The 1st two races were rubbish in my opinion. Todays race was good. Kind of like watching MotoGP.

 

Is this race a sign of things to come or will the year bring more of Melbourne and sepang boredom.

 

My judgement on the new F1 is probably best off being based half way through the season.

[Tourgott]

Is this race a sign of things to come or will the year bring more of Melbourne and sepang boredom.

 

I think it's sad for F1 if we have to celebrate such a race which would have been a second-class race in the 90s.

Edited by Tourgott, 06 April 2014 - 17:50.

[SpartanChas]

I'm happy with one race like that a season really. If every race is crazy, none of them are

Makes you appreciate it more. Not every race needs to be mad like that.

[noikeee]

I think it's sad for F1 if we have to celebrate such a race which would have been a second-class race in the 90s.

 

I watched the whole 90s. This race was a million times better than anything that happened that decade bar really rare freak races like Magny-Cours 99. An on-track fight for the lead was even rarer than it is today, the midfield was so much more spread out, and overtaking difficult (although not as hard as the following decade when the downforce problem started to become comical).

 

And no today wasn't "artificial".

[Tourgott]

I watched the whole 90s. This race was a million times better than anything that happened that decade 

 

Oh come on. You can't be serious. It was a good race, no doubt but this is ridiculous as all the "best race evaaa" postings.

Maybe everybody should calm down a little bit and then judge again.

[RealRacing]

For the record, I was thinking before the SC as much as anything. It's not like a boring race was livened up by bunching everyone together at the end. Without the SC it would still have been an excellent race.

Yeah, me too. However, the SC showed what may be possible with a little less restrictions. That's were the OP was pointed at: the race was good, the SC period showed it could be even better by tweaking things a little. Of course, corporate agendas always try to polarize the debate and some fans end up agreeing.

[spacekid]

I watched the whole 90s. This race was a million times better than anything that happened that decade bar really rare freak races like Magny-Cours 99. An on-track fight for the lead was even rarer than it is today, the midfield was so much more spread out, and overtaking difficult (although not as hard as the following decade when the downforce problem started to become comical).

And no today wasn't "artificial".

I guess different people enjoy different things. Before the SC I thought far too many passes were done half way down the straight with the DRS flap wide open. That doesn't interest me, it's impossible to defend against.

[SpartanChas]

Wait, I thought the 80s were the pinnacle of F1. Or was that just the opinion last year? What about the 2000s? And now it was the 90s?

I thought is was fairly obvious Mercedes weren't saving fuel when they were having their battle a quarter of the way in. And I don't believe fuel saving really goes on as much as some people believe.

[Tourgott]

Wait, I thought the 80s were the pinnacle of F1. Or was that just the opinion last year? What about the 2000s? And now it was the 90s?

 

Both decades were better than everything in the 2010's.

[KnucklesAgain]

Oh come on. You can't be serious. It was a good race, no doubt but this is ridiculous as all the "best race evaaa" postings.

Maybe everybody should calm down a little bit and then judge again.

 

Maybe you should rewatch whole nineties seasons.

[noikeee]

I guess different people enjoy different things. Before the SC I thought far too many passes were done half way down the straight with the DRS flap wide open. That doesn't interest me, it's impossible to defend against.

 

Lewis seemed able to defend very well. Now of course if you're on a Renault/Ferrari car vs a guy with a Mercedes on the back with newer softer tyres you're going to get mugged, and it's only fair that it is that way.

 

I think they've hit the sweet spot with the DRS well this year, I was concerned it'd be too strong but seems maybe slightly weaker than last year. Passing is possible and likely, but you still have to fight your way through and possibly overheat your car or hurt your tyres in the process if you don't hurry up. So track position does matter. Whereas last year it was often hit a button and wave by with a smile, which was too much for my taste too.

[ray b]

I think we saw a valid reason to junk the low penis noses for one thing

 

flipping  cars is not a good result

Edited by ray b, 06 April 2014 - 18:13.

[noikeee]

Wait, I thought the 80s were the pinnacle of F1. Or was that just the opinion last year? What about the 2000s? And now it was the 90s?

I thought is was fairly obvious Mercedes weren't saving fuel when they were having their battle a quarter of the way in. And I don't believe fuel saving really goes on as much as some people believe.

 

My favourite era is still the 80s because things were quite open then with lots of variables involved, lots of open development in pursuit of absolute speed before things got out of hand and had to be trimmed because of safety, too much downforce etc. But even in the 80s we didn't have as much action race-long as we have now.

 

I tried to watch the full 1985 season a while ago, it's my favourite season - at least on paper. Sure watching a recording already knowing beforehand what's going to happen can't rival watching a race live, but I still couldn't make it past the 4th or 5th race - bored to tears.

 

The 90s were worse because passing then became harder and with the introduction of refuelling it then became easier to pass on the pits.

Edited by noikeee, 06 April 2014 - 18:16.

[DanardiF1]

I think we saw a valid reason to junk the low penis noses for one thing

 

flipping  cars is not a good result

 

That was nothing to do with a low nose. That was from two tyres hitting each other at a critical angle, with Gutierrez applying the power at the same time.

[DanardiF1]

My favourite era is still the 80s because things were quite open then with lots of variables involved, lots of open development in pursuit of absolute speed before things got out of hand and had to be trimmed because of safety, too much downforce etc. But even in the 80s we didn't have as much action race-long as we have now.

 

I tried to watch the full 1985 season a while ago, it's my favourite season - at least on paper. Sure watching a recording already knowing beforehand what's going to happen can't rival watching a race live, but I still couldn't make it past the 4th or 5th race - bored to tears.

 

Same. Watching races in the 80's was very much for enthusiasts only. There was so much waiting to see how things panned out, which I know happens now with differing tyre strategies etc. but at the time there was very little info on what each driver was doing, so it'd be a case of 'where's Prost? He's nowhere at the moment'... Ten laps to go... 'Prost surges into the lead passing the ailing Ferrari of Alboreto'... well how did he do that then? What was he doing before? (I know he was saving fuel, biding his time etc. but for a TV viewer there's not much to go on, unlike now)

 

The 80's was a great era of drivers, but not necessarily for out-and-out racing. I think it was a little ahead of it's time, the way the races panned out was not matched by the level of coverage and information TV broadcasters (and now the internet) could give the viewers.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Bahrain has never been a bad track for overtaking, so let's nog get carried away. Let's wait on judging this when we get to dull tracks like Barcelona.

[RealRacing]

Wait, I thought the 80s were the pinnacle of F1. Or was that just the opinion last year? What about the 2000s? And now it was the 90s?

I thought is was fairly obvious Mercedes weren't saving fuel when they were having their battle a quarter of the way in. And I don't believe fuel saving really goes on as much as some people believe.

I'll believe it when there isn't a single radio comm. involving fuel unless it refers to a broken pipe...How much fuel do they need to be able to push 100% the whole race (even though not needed nor possible but as a ballpark)? Give them that, see what happens, go from there.

[noikeee]

Same. Watching races in the 80's was very much for enthusiasts only. There was so much waiting to see how things panned out, which I know happens now with differing tyre strategies etc. but at the time there was very little info on what each driver was doing, so it'd be a case of 'where's Prost? He's nowhere at the moment'... Ten laps to go... 'Prost surges into the lead passing the ailing Ferrari of Alboreto'... well how did he do that then? What was he doing before? (I know he was saving fuel, biding his time etc. but for a TV viewer there's not much to go on, unlike now)

 

The 80's was a great era of drivers, but not necessarily for out-and-out racing. I think it was a little ahead of it's time, the way the races panned out was not matched by the level of coverage and information TV broadcasters (and now the internet) could give the viewers.

 

Yeah coverage was a big factor yes. These days they'll show any fun scrap for 11th and replay it if they missed it first time round. Back then they'd just show Prost going round in 1st lap after lap after lap, then they show up the standings and Patrese's now up to 5th from 9th, how did that happen.

 

Even then I do firmly believe there was much less passing in the midfield because the cars were so so much more spread out. It was very common for cars that finished in points positions - and only the top 6 scored - to finish 2 or 3 laps back.

[Fastcake]

Lewis seemed able to defend very well. Now of course if you're on a Renault/Ferrari car vs a guy with a Mercedes on the back with newer softer tyres you're going to get mugged, and it's only fair that it is that way.

 

I think they've hit the sweet spot with the DRS well this year, I was concerned it'd be too strong but seems maybe slightly weaker than last year. Passing is possible and likely, but you still have to fight your way through and possibly overheat your car or hurt your tyres in the process if you don't hurry up. So track position does matter. Whereas last year it was often hit a button and wave by with a smile, which was too much for my taste too.

 

I agree with you about DRS. There have been a lot less mid-straight DRS passes than in previous years, and those we have seen have been Mercedes cars breezing past the others. Out of the two zones in Bahrain, the back straight only served to close them up, while the main one only had equally-engined cars closing up right at the end - where we can see drivers defend and properly battle for position. If we must have DRS, this is the way to do it.

[DanardiF1]

Yeah coverage was a big factor yes. These days they'll show any fun scrap for 11th and replay it if they missed it first time round. Back then they'd just show Prost going round in 1st lap after lap after lap, then they show up the standings and Patrese's now up to 5th from 9th, how did that happen.

 

Even then I do firmly believe there was much less passing in the midfield because the cars were so so much more spread out. It was very common for cars that finished in points positions - and only the top 6 scored - to finish 2 or 3 laps back.

 

The best example I think of how little you could follow in terms of a whole race in that era was Watson and Lauda charging up from the back of the grid to win at Long Beach in 83(82?). Murray Walker would mention them from time to time, but the real picture only emerged once they had charged into the top 6 and were obviously heading for the podium. Nowadays we'd see that coming a mile off, watching their progress on live timing and having TV pick up their passes and progress through the field.

 

Passing wasn't exactly exciting either for the most part. Often the only passing you'd see is where one driver turns his boost up or the other is clearly saving fuel/nursing a problem. The cars were not nimble enough for the kind of into-the-apex racing you get now, and the gaps between cars as you mention were massive. People complain about the Mercedes pair finishing 30 seconds ahead of everyone... try having the top 3 being a couple of laps ahead of the trailing pack!

 

I grew up in the 90's 'sprint' format of F1, with refuelling and fresh tyres at every pitstop, but I've watched a LOT of 80's races and found it hard going for the most part, save for the odd classic.