210 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

Edited:

 

This is a sincere effort to provide a "cyberhood" where like-minded people can share their views on what's wrong with McLaren. Whether that would be disaster stories about the current car, the hopelessness the coming season appears to offer, or which team members should be fired -- or any other issues they'd like to discuss about what's not working at the team.  

 

It's my hope that the folks who want to castigate the team will come here, while the driver threads and car threads can be focused on those topics.

 

The MP4-29 thread has certainly morphed into "The car's a dog," "No, let's wait and see," territory... With a thread dedicated to discussing the problems at McLaren (Management, Drivers, Car, etc), those who wish to, will have a place to do so, while those who'd rather not, can just focus on the latest "news" on the car or drivers.

 

Seems like a reasonable compromise, if the Mods are okay with it.

 

I do think this thread is warranted, as unlike Ferrari, they are being outpaced by fellow Mercedes runners with fewer resources. The drivers and engine are not the issue, and management has changed - so how have they not recovered from MP4-28?

Edited by Disgrace, 06 April 2014 - 17:41.

[LightningMcQueen]

The people designing the cars are not good enough... That's it

[DanardiF1]

The people designing the cars are not good enough... That's it

 

This. They've actually made some clear improvements on the mechanical side of the car from the overly stiff and unmanageable cars they've made in recent years, but their aero department seems patchy at best.

[mgs315]

Bahrain is very much a traction based circuit where they struggle with their chassis.

They got a double podium in Aus, it's not a disaster yet.

Odd that they were the slowest of all 4 Mercedes trams but hey ho, someone has to be.

[Cyanide]

Martin Whitmarsh.

 

Oh wait, he's not there. Well, then...whose head will roll pointlessly this time?

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's that goddamn Martin Whitmarsh. When are they going to replace him?

[Massa]

Mclaren would want the Ferrari chassis, and Ferrari would want the Mclaren engine. Funny

[Ricardo F1]

Martin Whitmarsh.

 

Oh wait, he's not there. Well, then...whose head will roll pointlessly this time?

Pointlessly?  Whitmarsh was a disaster, McLaren can recover but it won't happen overnight.  The car is very much still in development.

[DanardiF1]

Martin Whitmarsh.

 

Oh wait, he's not there. Well, then...whose head will roll pointlessly this time?

 

Sam Michael. It's all his fault now.

[Force Ten]

They seem to be having an okay car. Not great, not crap. Better than last year's. Pretty much on par with 4 or so other teams out there - Williams, FI, Ferrari and Red Bull.

 

They apparently did a one-eighty on their whole design philosophy last year and usually if you disrupt a process you've grown used to operate within it takes a bit of time to recalibrate and iron the kinks out. We'll see.

[AvranaKern]

I don't think it's fair to criticise McLaren, any other team bar Mercedes for that matter, for being slow or incompetent. If you take Mercedes factory cars out of the equation, then we will have 5 teams who are incredibly close to one another. Which means they have done more or less the same job with what they had. Granted, Force India and Williams deserve credit for being in the mix with the likes Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari, but then again, they had abandoned their projects early to work on these cars. Just like Mercedes who now have plethora of resources. Make no mistake, they have manpower, money and resources now unlike two years earlier. They have been working on this car for a very long time. They deserve their place, but because of their dominance, current predicemant of other teams are a bit skewed. We need more patience to see what they will do in Europe. Look how close it would be if there was no Mercedes - 8 cars within 10 seconds after ~12 laps:

 3. Sergio Perez          Force India-Mercedes      +24.067s
 4. Daniel Ricciardo      Red Bull-Renault          +24.489s
 5. Nico Hulkenberg       Force India-Mercedes      +28.654s
 6. Sebastian Vettel      Red Bull-Renault          +29.879s
 7. Felipe Massa          Williams-Mercedes         +31.200s
 8. Valtteri Bottas       Williams-Mercedes         +31.800s
09. Fernando Alonso       Ferrari                   +32.500s
10. Kimi Raikkonen        Ferrari                   +33.400s

[FenderJaguar]

to start with. Ron. the way he got rid of Whitmarsh in a way that he didn't deserve. no class. nothing. jokes about where he is.

[4MEN]

With that engine McLaren should be the second best car.

[MikeMM]

The people designing the cars are not good enough... That's it

I agree with this.

Mercedes have a lot of skilled and smart ex TD and therefore they produced better car.

[Fastcake]

Sam Michael. It's all his fault now.

 

Agreed. Hang him twice and throw him of the cliff, just to be sure.

 

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what to expect from McLaren this year. A poor season in 2013 and starting the new car early should mean they'll be fighting at the front, but then Ron only started reorganising the team in January. However harmonious it may or may not of been, it was too late to influence the 2014 car, and the apparent sacking of Whitmarsh must of caused some upheaval in the crucial pre-season testing.

[bogi]

Repeating my post from the MP4-28 thread,

 

http://www.f1-fansit...-mp4-28-f1-car/

 

I hope there will be one brave journo to ask them what the hell is happening? No way team like McLaren with all the resources they have can be slower than Williams and Force India.

[study]

Only once since 2009 have McLaren being able to design a good car, they need a big change.

[MikeMM]

Repeating my post from the MP4-28 thread,

 

http://www.f1-fansit...-mp4-28-f1-car/

 

I hope there will be one brave journo to ask them what the hell is happening? No way team like McLaren with all the resources they have can be slower than Williams and Force India.

For the second year in a row McLaren is slower than FI at the start of the season.

That is awful.

Edited by MikeMM, 06 April 2014 - 18:22.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Only once since 2009 have McLaren being able to design a good car, they need a big change.

2010, 2011 and 2012 were all pretty okay. If it wasn't for Red Bull all three of those cars could have won the title.

[DanardiF1]

For the second year in a row McLaren is slower than FI at the start of the season.

That is awful.

 

At Bahrain. It was pretty close in Malaysia and they were definitely quicker in Australia. Force India are always good at Sakhir.

[Massa]

At Bahrain. It was pretty close in Malaysia and they were definitely quicker in Australia. Force India are always good at Sakhir.

 

Button was 40 seconds behind Hulk in Malaysia right ?

[F1matt]

The real worry for Mclaren is they have lost the ability to develop their car quicker than their rivals which traditionally helped them when the car was slow at the start of the season, this usually resulted in them finishing the season with the quickest car.

[metz]

Ron Dennis.

He just cant get along with who matters.

Mercedes

Alonso

Whitmarsh

you name them.

[Massa]

The real worry for Mclaren is they have lost the ability to develop their car quicker than their rivals which traditionally helped them when the car was slow at the start of the season, this usually resulted in them finishing the season with the quickest car.

 

Usually ? When ?  It was not a tradition, they did it one year, in 2009, and even at the end, it was not the quickest car.

[pathogen]

All Woking is a big big big piece of sh...t and the bald man is the cherry on the top. I wonder if any sponsor wants to vinculate his name with this team.

[KingTiger]

to start with. Ron. the way he got rid of Whitmarsh in a way that he didn't deserve. no class. nothing. jokes about where he is.

 

Whitmarsh should've been gone after 2010.

[DanardiF1]

Ron Dennis.

He just cant get along with who matters.

Mercedes

Alonso

Whitmarsh

you name them.

 

Huh?

He got along with Mercedes fine.

Alonso kind of blackmailed him over the spygate stuff, not good for any relationship

Whitmarsh has been a good employee for Ron for a long time, but he saw that he wasn't doing all he could in his current position and acted. You'll probably find that Martin has a new role within the McLaren Group.

 

I don't get this picture of Ron Dennis being this nightmare to work for. He's worked with every big name going and I don't see them queuing up to kick him in the nads. There's always going to be instances where things don't work (Montoya was an obvious one) but despite Dennis being a very unique individual I've never got the impression that he burns all his bridges. Just ask Mika, Niki, Alain, Jenson, Kimi, DC etc etc.

[maverick69]

It's just a theory - but I think they may have been rather affected by religiously sticking to the RRA ("Integrity" and all that bollocks). That - and they're experiencing the negatives of not being a factory team.

 

Combine the two in a year of massive technical change - then there's every chance you'll get caught with your pants down....... even when those who you supply technology to (for example, Force India) seem to be up and running with it.

[DanardiF1]

All Woking is a big big big piece of sh...t and the bald man is the cherry on the top. I wonder if any sponsor wants to vinculate his name with this team.

 

This team who despite lacking a title sponsor currently still has probably one of the sponsor portfolios on the grid? This team who is now also a volume supercar manufacturer with glowing reviews of it's cars?

[DanardiF1]

My personal opinion is that McLaren have failed in their attempt to create a 'conveyor-belt' of top technical talent, and consequently have lost a lot of their best talent to other teams thinking they'd be easy to replace from within. I don't think this has worked, meanwhile the rest of the grid has strengthened through taking on the best guys McLaren had.

 

Their design team simply isn't that good, and they need to start acting like the others and pinching who they want from their rivals (Prodomou being a good start).

[LuckyStrike1]

As a reader on Autosports forum I've learned that whatever happens at McLaren is alway Sam Michaels and Martin Whitmarshs fault. So why even ask the question? 

[Clatter]

With that engine McLaren should be the second best car.

Why shouldn't they have the best car? 

 

There is a lot more too it than just the engine.

[TurboF1]

All I can say is thank god Lewis saw the rot was too deep to be fixed quickly, and got out of there. Sad to say but Mac went from works mercedes team, 2 best drivers and looking set to sweep the championship in 07 and 08, to a solid midfield team trying to sign a major sponsor a few years later. I was a hardcore Mclaren fan, but 2012 was the last straw for me. Watching them make cockup after cockup, throwing away a pretty much sure 2nd Hamilton title by focusing on the slower drivers issues in the middle of a fistfight, along with poor reliability was too much. I got over 2003, I painfully got over 2005, dealt with 06, the loss of newey etc, still ruing 07, 08 shouldve been wrapped up sooner for a host of reasons, 09 was somewhat understandable, but enough was enough

[WitnessX]

Paddy Lowes brilliant MP4-28 didn't help. Most cars have a standard chassis that they just evolve from year to year and get better. Because the MP4-28 concept turned out to be a dud they have to start from zero again.

[F1matt]

Usually ? When ? It was not a tradition, they did it one year, in 2009, and even at the end, it was not the quickest car.

Off the top of my head I would say 1997, 2005, 2007, and 2009, IMO they had a decent record of catching up and ending the season with the quickest car though usually to late to win a title.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Their 2007 and 2005 cars were pretty competitive from the start...

[rileyl]

Same here, I support this team since 1995 and left with Lewis! I was gutted when MW decided to divert resources to make Button quicker and themselves slower; at the moment Lewis and themselves were on course to win a 2nd title!! Watch them cockup Lewis's race just to try to let Button finished ahead of him really made me sick!  They deserved this as I said before, they lost a top tier driver that can extract the true pace out of the car and lost development directions.   

[Massa]

2005 and 2007 the car was competitive, Alonso won the third race i think. In 2005, it was just the reliability, in term of speed, the car was fast already.

For 97, Williams was the best car in the end, for sure, Mclaren did a big progress that year but i don't think they develop their car better than Williams and Ferrari.

[onewingedangel]

They have changed their design philosophy for the new car and given that their current position is not bad, a necessary rebuilding.

 

If the team cannot outdevelop Force India and Williams given their comparative resource then I'd be more concerned, but I'm expecting McLaren to Pull away and be the solid 2nd/3rd fastest car fighting with Red Bull for best of the rest behind Mercedes in the second half of the year.

 

It's important that they make sure they are building on a stable platform to carry it through the next few years, and it's better to take the pain now when Mercedes have clearly taken advantage of the rules change and then push forward with Honda.

[F1matt]

For some reason regarding 2005 I recall Renault dominating pre season and the early races, with such dominance even Fisichella managed wins, maybe I am wrong, apologies if so! As for 2007 I must have got mixed up, that was Alonso and Hamilton at Mclaren and they were pretty level with Ferrari, apologies again, age is a cruel thing for the memory.......

[Raziel]

Only once since 2009 have McLaren being able to design a good car, they need a big change.

 

Only four time since 2007 have McLaren being able to design a good car

 

we can go either way on that....

 

 

Ron Dennis.

He just cant get along with who matters.

Mercedes

Alonso

Whitmarsh

you name them.

 

Whitmarsh? They´ve worked together for over 20 years without single problem between them for God´s sake! What are you talking about? Because he sacked MW? Well, Whitmarsh is to weak character and not for the Team principal, as simple as that!

 

Mercedes? You gotta be joking! He refused to sell McLaren to Mercedes and only for that, he is BIG BIG BIG in eyes of all McLaren fans! Mercedes wanted their own team and not "50/50" deal with McLaren.

[HoldenRT]

Ron Dennis' comments after Oz look even funnier now after this race.

 

McLaren and Ferrari are nowhere.  One has the excuse of a weaker engine, the other doesn't.

[HoldenRT]

Anyone remember when Lewis switched to Merc, how a lot of people thought that it was a silly and risky decision?  Even Perez is probably happy he left.  With Perez it's a bit uncertain, but with Lewis it's clear cut.  They've gone downhill ever since he left.  Everyone is so short sighted and it's easy to look at it now and say that Lewis made the smart decision.  But it did NOT look that way at the time.

[GoGro]

Besides of the car they also have a bad strategic management. Leaving Button on track during the safety car and not giving him new tyres is not a mistake to be made by such a team.

[Lazy]

Same here, I support this team since 1995 and left with Lewis! I was gutted when MW decided to divert resources to make Button quicker and themselves slower; at the moment Lewis and themselves were on course to win a 2nd title!! Watch them cockup Lewis's race just to try to let Button finished ahead of him really made me sick!  They deserved this as I said before, they lost a top tier driver that can extract the true pace out of the car and lost development directions.   

Every chance you get you peddle this bullshit which has been disproved many times.

[Lazy]

Ron Dennis' comments after Oz look even funnier now after this race.

 

McLaren and Ferrari are nowhere.  One has the excuse of a weaker engine, the other doesn't.

One has the advantage of being a factory team, one doesn't. Jenson was blowing the Ferraris away until the SC.

[P123]

McLaren are right there with other two Merc customers, so it's not all disastrous. With their resources I think it's fair that the expectation is they should be ahead but they seem to be undergoing a few personnel changes which may be a bit unsettling in the tech and aero depts.

I also wonder if the still have the same correlation issues between factory and track; the same issues which led them to mistakenly believe the concept of 2012 car had reached it peak mid season and resulted in the 2013 car...

[topical]

Ron Dennis fired Whitmarsh in the most contemptuous, arrogant way then pompously starting spouting off that McLaren would "win Grands Prix" this year.

Well, I imagine Whitmarsh is the one laughing now with his big severance pay and RD left with egg on his face.

[bogi]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113325

 

Jense probably high on mushrooms (suspension)

[Jon83]

Ron Dennis fired Whitmarsh in the most contemptuous, arrogant way then pompously starting spouting off that McLaren would "win Grands Prix" this year.

Well, I imagine Whitmarsh is the one laughing now with his big severance pay and RD left with egg on his face.

 

Typical Dennis really. 

 

As arrogant as they come. He looks more than stupid at this moment and for him (not the team) deservedly so.