92 replies to this topic

[Ksharp]

Quite ironic that Ferrari make probably the best engines in the road cars, but fails in F1.
On the other hand, this is a comparison with Mercedes engine, which has been developed for three years and circa $500 millions were invested, so it was a big spoon to swallow from the very beginning.
But Ferrari can complain as much as they can, truth is Mercedes did a better job, including the sacked Aldo Costa. Now it's probably time for Ferrari to invest in something really good instead of being a midfield team.

[Mart280]

I wonder if Sauber might switch to Mercedes next year, Mercedes will be keen to have another team to replace McLaren. 

Thats what I was thinking, other teams will be very keen to get their hands on a Mercedes PU in 2015, you have to wonder if Mclaren have made a big mistake or a masterstroke only time will tell, or is it possible that once this season is over Mercedes will only want to supply themselves, FI and Williams ?

[Lazy]

Quite ironic that Ferrari make probably the best engines in the road cars, but fails in F1.
On the other hand, this is a comparison with Mercedes engine, which has been developed for three years and circa $500 millions were invested, so it was a big spoon to swallow from the very beginning.
But Ferrari can complain as much as they can, truth is Mercedes did a better job, including the sacked Aldo Costa. Now it's probably time for Ferrari to invest in something really good instead of being a midfield team.

They do?

[Ksharp]

They do?

 

Personally I think so, yes. I have driven 458 Italia and the glorious Superamerica, just to be sure. There's no other car maker that can deliver such a sensation. 

But I don't want to go down into a debate which company does the best hi-tech most efficient engines. That's a personal opinion, hence the use of probably. Luca asked for engines instead of aero, here you go, it's your turn now. 

[Retrofly]

Easy solution, stick a Merc engine in the back of the Ferrari

 

In a hypothetical world would Ferrari be allowed to do that?

[blackgerby]

LdM is a goof. He has and will only care about himself and how much money he can make.

He certainly made himself look very stupid with his taxi remarks just before the race at the weekend. A total own goal.
Ferrari may not have produced a good engine but his meddling turned Ferrari into the laughing stock of the weekend.
They'll get things sorted as long as he stays out of it, but he seems to be arrogant enough to believe he's helping.

Edit: Spelling.

Edited by blackgerby, 09 April 2014 - 07:43.

[Petroltorque]

If the Ferrari PU is 13kg over the minimum weight that is costing them 0.45s a lap every lap and really they should be pressuring Maranello to get the weight down.

[zottzell]

He certainly made himself look very stupid with his taxi remarks just before the race at the weekend. A total own goal.
Ferrari may not have produced a good engine but his meddling turned Ferrari into the laughing stock of the weekend.
They'll get things sorted as long as he stays out of it, but he seems to be arrogant enough to believe he's helping.

Edit: Spelling.

Think it was Rosberg that was asked over radio to remember to save fuel already around lap 3,so even the with a successful PU as the Mercedes the drivers are asked to save fuel.

[Seanspeed]

If the Ferrari PU is 13kg over the minimum weight that is costing them 0.45s a lap every lap and really they should be pressuring Maranello to get the weight down.

I'm pretty sure Ferrari are working on this as much as they can for their own benefit. Sauber 'pressuring them' doesn't change anything.

Also not sure how much they can do about it this year.

[blackgerby]

Think it was Rosberg that was asked over radio to remember to save fuel already around lap 3,so even the with a successful PU as the Mercedes the drivers are asked to save fuel.

 

I don't understand the relevance of your comment as it made no difference to us having one of the most exciting races in recent history throughout the field. Whether it's true or not, Renault and Mercedes are coming of as caring about the planet, wanting to advance technology, and caring about the future of F1. Also, whether it's true or not Ferrari are coming of as arrogant, we're the most important, and we don't care whether you get good races, we won't let our drivers race. Marketing is important to car manufacturers (look at what's happening with Toyota road cars) and Ferrari aren't winning the battle, thanks in large part to LdM.

[blackgerby]

Back on topic, I feel sorry for teams like Sauber, who have struggles to make the grid because of finances, and are caught at the back of the field because of circumstances beyond their control. I would far rather see all the grid having similar powered engines, or have them all producing their own engines (which would be impractical).

[Jon83]

Back on topic, I feel sorry for teams like Sauber, who have struggles to make the grid because of finances, and are caught at the back of the field because of circumstances beyond their control. I would far rather see all the grid having similar powered engines, or have them all producing their own engines (which would be impractical).

 

So are Sauber saying the only reason they are were they are is because of the Ferrari PU?

[vlado]

LdM asked for a race series where engines are more important than aerodynamics.  He got it.

[George Costanza]

Sauber Mercedes would be awesome. like the old days.

[Maustinsj]

Easy solution, stick a Merc engine in the back of the Ferrari

In a hypothetical world would Ferrari be allowed to do that?

I'm sure they would. Not sure about the PR effect, though!

"Buy a Ferrari - they're nearly as good as a Mercedes".

[bonjon1979a]

I'm pretty sure Ferrari are working on this as much as they can for their own benefit. Sauber 'pressuring them' doesn't change anything.

Also not sure how much they can do about it this year.

All manufacturers will be and have been bringing in reliability (performance too undoubtedly) upgrades already. Realistically there isn't a huge amount they can do this year about the wdc wcc, that's gone. However, they can work towards the engine next year being far better. A different engine, well 95%, different engine will be allowed to be presented next year for homologation and Ferrari will be working not that now. I imagine all the engine manufacturers are offering huge sums of money to Brixworth employees trying to pouch them. Next year things will even out a bit, the year after they'll be all in the same boat.

[George Costanza]

All manufacturers will be and have been bringing in reliability (performance too undoubtedly) upgrades already. Realistically there isn't a huge amount they can do this year about the wdc wcc, that's gone. However, they can work towards the engine next year being far better. A different engine, well 95%, different engine will be allowed to be presented next year for homologation and Ferrari will be working not that now. I imagine all the engine manufacturers are offering huge sums of money to Brixworth employees trying to pouch them. Next year things will even out a bit, the year after they'll be all in the same boat.

 

 

next season depends on Honda.

[sopa]

I'm sure they would. Not sure about the PR effect, though!

"Buy a Ferrari - they're nearly as good as a Mercedes".

 

Only 100 hp down!

[eronrules]

well, nissan (technically Renault  ) is offering merc engine with there new Skyline GT cars ... maybe Ferrari should do it too. 

[Shambolic]

Back on topic, I feel sorry for teams like Sauber, who have struggles to make the grid because of finances, and are caught at the back of the field because of circumstances beyond their control. I would far rather see all the grid having similar powered engines, or have them all producing their own engines (which would be impractical).

 

This again?

 

What about when one team buys in a gearbox that turns out to be substandard? Or brakes? Or fasteners? Or any one of the myriad things they rely on outside suppliers for?

 

I like Sauber, and I also quite like Lotus. And I worry for both of them when they're being held back at least in part by their engine packages. But I'm able to accept F1 isn't about forcing everyone to run to the lowest common denominator. It's about competition, and choosing, even lucking into, the best engine is part of that contest. Just as was the case when we had a tyre war, and probably as was the case when customer cars still existed.

[bonjon1979a]

next season depends on Honda.

Id be pretty worried if I were mclaren. Merc clearly have a monster and they're not going to be sitting on their hands for the next year. Honda may have a good unit but who knows...

[dave34m]

Id be pretty worried if I were mclaren. Merc clearly have a monster and they're not going to be sitting on their hands for the next year. Honda may have a good unit but who knows...

Yes indeed, I would love to know whats going on over at Honda. Hopefully for McLaren they have the new engine installed in a GP2 type car and are doing plenty of miles, perhaps running race weekends similar to what Toyota did before joining F1. It should be a huge advantage to be able to have this year to update and improve the engine

[ardbeg]

Well, the PU's are of course important. They should be allowed to develop them. How much does it cost to develop  chassis and aerodynamics that compensates for a 80hp deficit?

Edited by ardbeg, 10 April 2014 - 01:29.

[ultimatebourne]

Ferrari want engine development to be more important than aero development.

We still don't have that.

 

Yes development is not just development in season, but also development before the season. Development in season with the homologated bits is frozen (aside from so-called reliability changes which no doubt actually mean getting more power without having current reliability problems), but other parts are not frozen such as software etc, which by all accounts seems to be the main issue with Ferrari - how the ERS is integrated and utilised. This is not frozen.

 

But aside from development in season, Ferrari failed in development prior to the season. Engine development was important - Ferrari wanted that and failed.

[ultimatebourne]

The whole "reliability" changes are a very grey area. What parameter do you fix - the reliability or the performance?

 

That is, the two actually go together. It's easy to get a reliable engine that produces 500 hp but more challenging if same engine is producing 800 hp.

 

So teams can simply claim "Hey I need to make reliability upgrades because I can't make full power reliably. We're *supposed* to be making 900 hp but if we try and get that out of the engine it blows up, hence we need to make changes to improve reliability".

 

So in reality the manufacturer is actually improving performance by getting more hp from the engine that was previously producing 500 hp reliably.

[Ferrari2183]

I think it's quite evident that Ferrari have the worst PU by some margin. Reports that it is heavier also lead me to believe their main focus was reliability instead of performance. They've gone conservative once again...

[F1ultimate]

The whole "reliability" changes are a very grey area. What parameter do you fix - the reliability or the performance?

 

It is very grey, and FIA will very likely allow Ferrari and Renault to overhaul their engines so that they can compete with Mercedes, or else half the teams on the grid won't be happy about taking part in the sport.

[Ferrari2183]

It is very grey, and FIA will very likely allow Ferrari and Renault to overhaul their engines so that they can compete with Mercedes, or else half the teams on the grid won't be happy about taking part in the sport.

You think Mercedes are going to allow that?

The funny thing is that Renault asked for the homologation deadline to be extended but Mercedes as well as Ferrari were against it.

The only way this works is if they all agree to scrap the homologation rule.

[CrucialXtreme]

According to the latest AutoSport magazine, Sauber is 20kg overweight and plans to bring a new lightweight car to Spain in May.

[F1ultimate]

According to the latest AutoSport magazine, Sauber is 20kg overweight and plans to bring a new lightweight car to Spain in May.

 

20KG overweight with Adrian Sutil in a car? Urghh

[Petroltorque]

13 of that 20 kg is the Ferrari Power Unit.

[Mauseri]

Quite ironic that Ferrari make probably the best engines in the road cars, but fails in F1.

Ever owned a Fiat? Did you get 500k trouble free kilometers with the engine? Ok a Fiat is not exactly a Ferrari but I guess a Ferrari needs even more care to get there.

[AngelaTifosi]

I always thought Japanese car manufactures are the one that make the best engines in the road cars.

[Treads]

I always thought Japanese car manufactures are the one that make the best engines in the road cars.

 

Obviously it's the Germans. 

[tormave]

Think it was Rosberg that was asked over radio to remember to save fuel already around lap 3,so even the with a successful PU as the Mercedes the drivers are asked to save fuel.

 

The drivers have been saving fuel with lift and coast for several years already. This has nothing to do with Mercedes being a good or a bad engine. The loss of laptime by not driving all the way to the braking point at full throttle is less than the lap time penalty of carrying enough fuel to not have to lift and coast at any point in the race.

[engineblock1]

Had the regulations stayed, Sauber would probably be where Red Bull are in 2014. Fighting among top 3. However, it's pretty much confirmed that PU is holding them back.

 

As far as the hardware in PU itself is concerned, I doubt Ferrari has supplied something inferior. It's not like the PU is capable of producing enough power. It's more like they have had hard timing putting it down to the surface. This issue demands testing and trials. They will get there, but not any time soon, not this season.

[Petroltorque]

I'm not sure about that. The excuse that the Ferrari PU is failing because it can't put down all the electric energy to track is misleading. I think the is also a significant discrepancy between the ICE outputs of the various manufactures. For the Mercedes unit to produce the reputed 800bhp the ice would have to be producing 630bhp. Renault have suggested their ICE punches out 600bhp. If you also consider that Mercedes could probably plumb another 110bhp from the MGU-HEAT and MGU-KINETIC while running in a steady state and still charge the Energy Store they would already have a significant advantage. All of this before they put down the remaining 50bhp on the straight when not traction limited.

[AlexS]

 

However, it's pretty much confirmed that PU is holding them back.

 Marussia made a very conservative chassis that looks like from last century and it is near Sauber. I don't think their problems are just the PU.

[Petroltorque]

The main problem is the car is 20kg over the minium allowed weight. Half the penalty is the Ferrari PU and that's even before you consider power deficits. To be that far off the weight limit costs between 6 and 7 tenths a second depending on circuit.

[engineblock1]

 Marussia made a very conservative chassis that looks like from last century and it is near Sauber. I don't think their problems are just the PU.

 

PU does not affect speed in one ways. Like Ferrari is suffering recently from tyre degradation, Sauber might be suffering from similar problems. Let's recall Sauber was noted to be one of the kindest to its tires in 2013, Ferrari used not to be that bad too. However, this year we have seen the Ferrari's degradation handling has dropped considerably, in which PU seems to have a role. Same might be happening for Sauber, not making car work what it's capable of due to PU
 

[Bartonz20let]

I always thought Japanese car manufactures are the one that make the best engines in the road cars.

Absolutely, by far the best IMO.

Most euro manufacturers are using off the shelf internals, japs go right for the full forged setups off the shelf.

As someone who is into road car tuning (and runs a German engine) I'd pick a jap any day of the week.

[Timstr11]

It is very grey, and FIA will very likely allow Ferrari and Renault to overhaul their engines so that they can compete with Mercedes, or else half the teams on the grid won't be happy about taking part in the sport.

Redbull has had an aerodynamic advantage for 5 years. Did the FIA help other teams to cacth up to Redbull?

Let's not over-dramatize the Mercedes advantage. We're only 3 races into the season and teams will be able to overhaul their engines for next year.

Edited by Timstr11, 10 April 2014 - 18:16.

[George Costanza]

Had the regulations stayed, Sauber would probably be where Red Bull are in 2014. Fighting among top 3. However, it's pretty much confirmed that PU is holding them back.

 

As far as the hardware in PU itself is concerned, I doubt Ferrari has supplied something inferior. It's not like the PU is capable of producing enough power. It's more like they have had hard timing putting it down to the surface. This issue demands testing and trials. They will get there, but not any time soon, not this season.

Top 3? Whoa, that's quite a statement...