67 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

Dear Bernie
 
If you're really worried about the spectacle, then get FOM to take a lesson in camera angles from some of your punters. The current TV pictures give nothing of the sensation of speed, you'd add a couple of million to your totals if they were getting shots like this every weekend:

Edited by Lazy, 07 April 2014 - 13:54.

[MirNyet]

That is pretty cool, you really get a feel for how hard they are braking into that turn and the ability of the cars to change direction.

[RedBaron]

What a lucky bunch of people in that grand stand. I bet your arms, legs and throats ache from so much cheering during that race!

 

Edit: I loved the sound of the Mercs there, they sounded so futuristic and fast. It's different, it's not as loud but I liked that (Sorry a little OT) 

Edited by RedBaron, 07 April 2014 - 14:46.

[Disgrace]

Lower and more static shots would be nice, but then the screen would be filled with cars rather than with advertising boards.

[Andrew Hope]

Like most things in F1, the camera angles are acceptable as they are now, but they could be so much better.

 

I'm more pissed at what is now 3 or 4 straight seasons of "What's that? DRS has been enabled? Perfect, let's show 14 replays of the start where nothing happened."

[SanDiegoGo]

like two jet fighters dogfighting. imense speed. the camera angles are chosen with advertising in mind so fast panning shots are not allowed as the advertisments would look blurry and advertising is bernie's number one priority. he's even less inclined to do it now as he is actively trying to tank F1 so he can buy on the cheap, the devious bastard.

[Lazy]

Lower and more static shots would be nice, but then the screen would be filled with cars rather than with advertising boards.

True, but you could put a few shots like this in the mix and more people would be watching your advertising shots.

[Ross Stonefeld]

F1 could use some creativity in the camera work, but I don't think shots from the grandstand like that would add anything. The FOM views of the race for the lead were WAY better.

[Lazy]

F1 could use some creativity in the camera work, but I don't think shots from the grandstand like that would add anything. The FOM views of the race for the lead were WAY better.

You can't be serious Ross, I've just watched the whole race and there's nothing that gives anything like the sense of the speed and energy of an F1 car as that one.

[DanardiF1]

F1 could use some creativity in the camera work, but I don't think shots from the grandstand like that would add anything. The FOM views of the race for the lead were WAY better.

 

That's what's key I think. The current camera setups are very good at letting you see as much as possible of what is going on, but not so much of the more 'atmospherics', ie. the speed, direction change etc. 

 

Getting a balance of the 'standard' shots as well as more creative ones like the fan-video above would be great.

Edited by DanardiF1, 07 April 2014 - 14:34.

[TheManAlive]

That is a brilliant video. It captures the sensation of the speed and the sheer ferocity of the braking. I have been watching F1 for 26 years, been to multiple GPs, but that video still impresses me.

[LoudHoward]

The WEC had a nice shot of the backstraight in China last year, it was quite a zoomed in shot perpendicular to the back straight from what seemed to be all the way over the other side of the track. It gave an immense sense of speed with the background wizzing along. Maybe they'll use it in the F1 this year.

 

https://www.youtube....etailpage#t=429

[Ross Stonefeld]

You can't be serious Ross, I've just watched the whole race and there's nothing that gives anything like the sense of the speed and energy of an F1 car as that one.

 

So you put up a static camera on the back straight or something. I want to see good angles on the cars overtaking each other, not a distance shot showing the "wow, omg, mph!" effect. 

[Beamer]

+1 There really are ways to show the speed much better than they do now. Not all the time, but blend it inbetween. Less zoom, corner sequences, static camera's. Plenty of opportunities. 

[muramasa]

occasionally inserting shots from viewer stands like that is what other events like baseball and football have been doing since maybe mass broadcasting had started.

 

Certainly will be nice flavor for F1 too i think.

[KavB]

I fully agree. Looking head on at incoming F1 cars on the main straight make them look like they are slow. Obviously this is not the case but FOM aren't conveying the sense of speed. 

 

My friend and brother who don't watch F1 both said the camera angles make the cars look quite slow when they are isolated from each other. However they said the cars looked really quick when they were bunched up after the safety car. When you have large, open tracks with a lot of run off areas, it's hard to perceive the speed of the cars because there are no static objects in the background to compare their relative speeds. Compare that to a compact track like Monaco full of buildings everywhere, it looks like they are going really fast even though they are actually going slower than normal. The camera angle by the swimming pool is the best demonstration of how fast these cars are. 

 

It's all about perception. It would be great if they could improve the angles one day. At least you can at least appreciate the speed even when the races itself are boring. 

[rooksby]

A favourite clip from a few years ago showing the violent speed of Monza that you don't even get close to seeing or appreciating with FOM cameras perched high and far away in the same fixed locations they've used since the 70s.

 

http://youtu.be/IYBiTwdeS44?t=42s

[BullHead]

Yeah, that's impressive. Fan shots do add to the atmosphere, I think, but I'm not sure they should necessarily be part of the race feed. Maybe the individual broadcasters could take a few shots at places and show them afterwards. Actually, scrub that - not allowed/would cost a fortune. We could get into the habit on this bb (I've said this a few times in the past) of finding and posting good fan shots from each race as we go on. Would give us some new material to view and be inspired by in between events....

[Jamiednm]

I don't know...I think it is very difficult to convey the speed and direction changes on TV, not just because of the camera angles, but because you cant notice the small nuances that give it the wow factor in person.

There are loads of angles of Eau Rouge, but when I was at the foot of it in 2012 for the GP, the speed of the elevation, direction change and sound of the gears stimulated experiences that would be impossible to convey on TV.

I'd like to see an attempt at least of covering breaking zones at the end of straights in a way that demonstrates the breaking effects though - especially in these days of energy recovery - its very relevant to understanding just how much energy is involved. Also, the cars sound great under breaking so that would add to the spectacle.

Edited by Jamiednm, 07 April 2014 - 15:32.

[dweller23]

F1 could use some creativity in the camera work, but I don't think shots from the grandstand like that would add anything. The FOM views of the race for the lead were WAY better.

But they can't, they have same camera crew working on cameras since, what, Germany 1996 (or even Great Britain 1996 if you believe they did that as well)? It's a routine for those guys, no place for creativity.

[spacekid]

Good OP, and completely agree. As always I don't think the debate has to be binary.

There is a place for the current types of views that FOM use, and angles such as in the OP and that trackside at Monza vid, which was thrilling.

There are often dull bits in races where we are shown multiple slow motion replays of a car taking a kerb, something I now find quite soporific. Intersperse the coverage with angles like that one in Monza instead to show us just how fast the cars are really going. Show us how exciting it really is, instead of sucking all the vitality out of the thing.

Edited by spacekid, 07 April 2014 - 19:37.

[ANF]

Excellent thread. Speaking of Monza, it would be nice if the run down to Ascari looks something like this.

Instead of something like this:

[Fonzey]

I think the head on view of the start is terrible, cars look very slow to get off the line... I much prefer the top down they show in replays.

Audio has been terrible on the FOM coverage for years too, so much quality from the V8s was lost to just the wailing. We rarely hear the explosive downshifts and crackling overrun on TV. This is why I refuse to pass judgement on the new sounds until I attend a GP.

[Skinnyguy]

I really don´t get how they think what we have better is now (regarding angles, not action coverage) than what we had 14 years ago. This is how a Monaco lap used to look like.

 

[ANF]

Ah, the alternative Bernievision feed... They should use some of those camera positions again. Amazing shot through the right-hander after Loews!

[rooksby]

Fierce. Absolutely fierce.

[f1fastestlap]

Like 2 fighter jets on a dogfight. Love it...

[Incast]

That 2001 Monaco clip is the same FOM production, although back from F1 Digital+ then. In their defence, Monaco is the only race they don't cover today.

 

That said - there seems to have been a shift in the last 2-3 seasons in their camera coverage, F1 Digital+ and the initial years of them taking over the world feed (05, 06, 07) they stuck with the closer more exciting angles. However, in recent years very wide angles have become more prominent - alongside cramming in CGI advertising constantly. The change may be down to the fact that Bernie now owns the trackside advertising, I think that he only took control of that in the last ten years.

It surprises me the broadcasters don't lobby for change, since they are paying millions for the coverage. 

[f1fastestlap]

Another one 

[zztopless1]

I've been bitching about this for years, especially after finally seeing the cars a few years back (how they slowed down at the end of the straights blew me away more than anything).

 

To me, the way they film it at the moment doesn't convey any sense of speed, save for high speed accidents and the occasional camera position (there used to be one down near a curb in Valencia that was excellent).

 

All that money spent to go fast and be all kinds of awesome and yet the company charged with promoting the sport seems to do it's best to hide said awesomeness from current and potential fans.

 

I'd love to see this actually brought up by someone like Sky that has a vested interest in improving how the sport comes across on TV.  Brundle is always talking about how TV just doesn't do it justice, but never about how it potentially could...

[4MEN]

I really don´t get how they think what we have better is now (regarding angles, not action coverage) than what we had 14 years ago. This is how a Monaco lap used to look like.

 

Stop posting videos of V10!!!

On topic: that footage was pay per view... I guess that's the answer.

[Otaku]

I think that if the FOM guys were trained to do a worst job than they are doing now, they wouldn't be able to...

 

a) wide angles with ZERO sense of speed

b) 358018501850358310598015 idiotic replays of the race start, from almost every car on the grid most of the time to show.... nothing

c) absolute "disuse" (what's the word for NOT using?) of current technology, for example on the last part of the race while they were showing the battle for "best of the rest" while just showing the hamilton-rosberg gap, when they could have used a picture-in-picture square and actually show their battle, there's a bunch of unused screen now that we have "widescreen"

d) on-screen info is as crappy as it gets, most of the time useless or just too little

e) sound filtering... don't even get me started

 

etc etc etc

Edited by Otaku, 07 April 2014 - 23:42.

[wepmob2000]

If you want a true feel for the awesomeness of the sound, fan videos on Youtube are always the way to go, much, much better than anything TV offers now.... The new sound of F1 is very cool in the OP video (even if its a bit too quiet).

Personally I hate the close up tracking shots we get ad-nauseum now, they convey nothing of the speed, and you can barely see the driver anyway, so whats the point (well, advertising obviously). The guys who produced the BBC coverage of the British GP in the 1990's could teach the current useless idiots a thing or two, the shots they used to capture around Maggotts and Becketts caught the speed and changes of direction like no other TV production team manages anywhere......

[teejay]

Gotta remember safety has also made it harder - camera's can only be at certain points through the wall etc.

[morrino]

I think that if the FOM guys were trained to do a worst job than they are doing now, they wouldn't be able to...

 

a) wide angles with ZERO sense of speed

b) 358018501850358310598015 idiotic replays of the race start, from almost every car on the grid most of the time to show.... nothing

c) absolute "disuse" (what's the word for NOT using?) of current technology, for example on the last part of the race while they were showing the battle for "best of the rest" while just showing the hamilton-rosberg gap, when they could have used a picture-in-picture square and actually show their battle, there's a bunch of unused screen now that we have "widescreen"

d) on-screen info is as crappy as it gets, most of the time useless or just too little

e) sound filtering... don't even get me started

 

etc etc etc

 

d) Cutting track action for showing reactions from drivers' girlfriends that nobody cares.

 

This thread should be a sticky. I've been complaining about this for years too.

[discover23]

That video is as impressive as the move Lewis pulled on Nico on that corner. He literally gives nico the corner and slows down to attack him on the inside ..

[zztopless1]

This thread should be a sticky. I've been complaining about this for years too.

 

Agreed.

 

Also, regarding advertising, they could absolutely make sure it is seen no matter what types of shots they use.  If they aren't able to convey to viewers the awesomeness that a billion dollars a year spent on cutting edge research into how to fast faster buys, then what's the point?  F1 has so much potential to attract a much wider audience if they could get the wow factor on tv that it should have and the teams deserve from their enormous investments.  

 

Bernie may have been the right man to lead F1 25 years ago when they needed to expand (arguable but has brought in revenue and exposure, although much of the extra revenue is never seen by the teams that actually make F1 possible), but he has been holding it back for at least the last 15 years in my opinion.  He seems to show no interest in promoting the sport (FOM's primary role), and seems to show almsot no respect for the teams that actually large amounts of their own money each year only to have his company siphon off a majority chunk of the revenues because [reason].  No other major sport would allow this, hence the constant divide and conquer tactics that allowed a third party to be essentially given the rights to the revenues and keep the teams (and FIA) from demanding their fair share of the revenues (ie all of it minus a fee to FOM for promoting the sport, assuming to do a good enough job to warrant even this).

 

As to FOM not doing it's job to broadcast and promote F1 properly:

 

• Bernie constantly complaining about the product is supposed to be promoting (not just this year).
• F1 being pretty much the last sport to get HD broadcasts, despite the relatively small cost compared to the money involved in the sport.
• Still no HD on-board shots.
• Terrible audio of the new power units, shown up by recordings made by fans track-side with cellphone mics.
• Camera angles that seem to go out of their way to not show just how fast and awesome F1 cars are - the resources needed to get this nailed are negligible considering the revenue the commercial rights holder keeps from the sport.  They are supposed to be justifying siphoning off a ridiculously high percentage of revenues the sport receives by promoting and presenting F1 in the best way possible - that is their job (Bernie's job) and they are doing it incredibly poorly and costing F1 a lot of potential fans in my opinion.

[button_sw]

FOM to me have always been slow to embrace new technology and creative ideas, it seemed an age before we got to watch F1 in Widescreen even though it had become the norm for many years before and the move to HD should have happened years before it did. For a sport that portrays it's self as the pinnacle it is really sad at the sub-standard quality we get when watching F1 on TV.  I don't even think the onboard cameras are HD yet which is so wrong considering many other racing series around the world have great HD onboard shots.

 

Camera angles need to be much better and It's not that difficult to do, putting cameras at the braking point of corners would be a huge improvement and they should stop the long zoomed in down the straight shots which are abysmal, it makes the cars look like they are travelling at 50mph!! 

 

And the sound! Where do I begin? I love the new sound of the engines and if FOM turned up their mics onboard and around the track the whole experience would be improved 10 fold. I have been watching F1 for 26 years and have never understood how they have never ever once captured the sheer amazing sound of these cars!!

 

Watching films these days in my living room is an amazing experience with 5.1 surround sound and the sub woofer kicks in when needed to produce incredible sound and immersive experience so why can't F1 do it, I have never understood this.

Edited by button_sw, 08 April 2014 - 03:19.

[ollebompa]

They should abandon wide angle for the onbords. The camera they used on the RWEP in the 90's and the low camera positions that IndyCar used around the same time was great

[Clatter]

That 2001 Monaco clip is the same FOM production, although back from F1 Digital+ then. In their defence, Monaco is the only race they don't cover today.

 

That said - there seems to have been a shift in the last 2-3 seasons in their camera coverage, F1 Digital+ and the initial years of them taking over the world feed (05, 06, 07) they stuck with the closer more exciting angles. However, in recent years very wide angles have become more prominent - alongside cramming in CGI advertising constantly. The change may be down to the fact that Bernie now owns the trackside advertising, I think that he only took control of that in the last ten years.

It surprises me the broadcasters don't lobby for change, since they are paying millions for the coverage. 

 

Now? You make it sound like it is something new. He has owned the trackside advertising for a long long time.

 

This is a problem that is afflicting more and more sports. In football they pan so far out it's difficult to even see the ball.

[PayasYouRace]

There need to be more action shots, but I don't want to lose the useful wide shots. They might not be that exciting, but they show best what's going on on track.

[Lazy]

There need to be more action shots, but I don't want to lose the useful wide shots. They might not be that exciting, but they show best what's going on on track.

Agreed, maybe poor choice of words for the thread name. In addition to, rather than instead of.

[S3baman]

What a lucky bunch of people in that grand stand. I bet your arms, legs and throats ache from so much cheering during that race!

 

Edit: I loved the sound of the Mercs there, they sounded so futuristic and fast. It's different, it's not as loud but I liked that (Sorry a little OT) 

 

Hearing those Mercs made me instantly think of this

 

 

I think if F1 cars sounded like this while at full throttle most of people will be happy.  

Edited by S3baman, 09 April 2014 - 12:16.

[undersquare]

The head-on coverage of the start drives me nuts.  We have to wait till Lap3 for a replay to find out what happened.

 

And why do fans' home cameras give better sound? 

 

Plus, while I'm whinging, why can't we record/watch/download the onboards after the race?  It's such a waste.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The front-on and elevated start is the best one, I can't think of how you'd improve it other than a directly above shot from a helicopter.

[SanDiegoGo]

The head-on coverage of the start drives me nuts.  We have to wait till Lap3 for a replay to find out what happened.

 

And why do fans' home cameras give better sound? 

 

Plus, while I'm whinging, why can't we record/watch/download the onboards after the race?  It's such a waste.

 It's almost as is FOM(bernie) adjusted the trackside audio to give the impression that the sound was unimpressive and damaging the sport. But that's ridiculous. Why on earth would he want to do that?

[wepmob2000]

It's almost as is FOM(bernie) adjusted the trackside audio to give the impression that the sound was unimpressive and damaging the sport. But that's ridiculous. Why on earth would he want to do that?

The sound was unimpressive on TV long before the advent of these new turbo's. IMHO, the sound has been rubbish ever since Bernie's own crew took over all TV production, before then some GP's were poor and some were great, depending upon the home broadcaster. Germany, Great Britain, Canada, and Australia seemed to get it just right, while others like Brazil and Japan weren't that great.

[Skinnyguy]

Maybe one day in F1...

 

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's a GoPro taped to the driver's helmet and run during FP1 with the series permission.

 

So you probably won't see that in any series, in a race. 

[f1fan1998]

Thinking of this made me think way back to the Argentine GP in 1995. I always remember thinking how fast the cars looked coming down the back straight and the tv always portrayed it that way too. It helps that Hill was in the throws of passing Schumacher.

 

Edited by f1fan1998, 09 April 2014 - 14:33.