66 replies to this topic

[George Costanza]

The fastest is F2002. it got the pole a year a later....

 

However, in terms of PURE pace? Williams FW14B by a mile. The fact that Nigel got 14 poles with it, is incredible.  Had Senna been in that Williams, the margins would be even greater than the McLaren MP4/4.

 

The 1992 Mexico GP is prime example.... That car was nearly 1 second faster than Schumacher's Benetton and over 2.4 seconds faster than Ayrton in the Mac Honda. In Brazil of 1992, it was 2.1 seconds faster than Senna and 2.7 seconds faster than Berger in the Mac-Honda.

Edited by George Costanza, 09 April 2014 - 01:10.

[Henri Greuter]

 

Anyone remember Monaco qualifying 1988 where Senna out-qualified the nearest non-Mclaren teams by 2.6ses!!! MP4/4 was a fantastic car. It was fast and reliable and in fact of the four retirements two were due to crash. The combination of the reliable Honda V6 to replace TAG-Porsche V6 which was used on the unreliable MP4/3, Senna and Gordon Murray made the car unbeatable. But the Porshe V6 Turbo was a monstrous engine and probably one of the most powerful capable of producing a maximum of 1500 horsepower in qualifying!!! Crazy!

Did you mean the Honda V6 capable of 1500 hp in qualifying?
The TAG was never such a beast in qualifying (See the 1986 season) but a very good engine in race trim.

Henri

[jesee]

Did you mean the Honda V6 capable of 1500 hp in qualifying?The TAG was never such a beast in qualifying (See the 1986 season) but a very good engine in race trim.Henri

Sorry. It was 1000HP not 1500 in qualifying. Yes it was Porshe engine but you are right. ..It was not as reliable as the Honda on the MP4/4.

[sopa]

I thought BMW was the most powerful turbocharged engine in qualifying trim. It took Benetton up there to the front rows on the fastest circuits on the calendar in 1986. And Nelson Piquet got lots of poles in 1984 in the Brabham despite unreliability in races.

[aditya-now]

The Brabham fan car.... 100% effective

 

BTW the Honda turbo in the mp4/4 was 1.5 liters and not that monstruous, around 650 HP "only" 

 

50% effective - as far as I remember John Watson did not finish.

[Wander]

50% effective - as far as I remember John Watson did not finish.

 

I think Gordon Murray also said on the recent motorsport magazine podcast that he was surprised that it finished considering how quickly they had put it together.

[Henri Greuter]

 

I think Gordon Murray also said on the recent motorsport magazine podcast that he was surprised that it finished considering how quickly they had put it together.

not mentioning the general unreliability of the Alfa Flat12 engines in general between 76 and 78......


Henri

[Henri Greuter]

 

Sorry. It was 1000HP not 1500 in qualifying. Yes it was Porshe engine but you are right. ..It was not as reliable as the Honda on the MP4/4.

In fairness to the TAG, don't forget that the 1988 Honda had to deliver performances way below that what was asked of the TAG in '86 and '87. And from what I can figure out, it is defendable to say that the 1988 Honda had many more brand newly designed components in 1988 then the TAG had is 1987. In fact, the TAG was on the edge of its performances in 86 and 87.
It is indeed a tantalizing thought what would have happened had funding for the TAG been found to continue one more year because the '88 rules could have been pretty well within the boundaries in which the TAG had thrived in its early years.
Had it been maintained and developed with the same zeal as Honda had done with their engine.....
Same is said by the way about the Cosworth V6.

Henri




Edit: Added

Makes you wonder how the season could have been if Senna and Piquet had remained where they were in 1987 and Mclaren using the TAG one last year.

Imagine: Piquet and Manseel with Williams-Honda's one more year, Senna with the Lotus-Honda, Prost with the Mclaren-TAG.
My gut feeling says that by then Williams would have been all dominant but possibly that Prost and Senna could have surprised on occasion and perhaps the Ferraris a bit better then they eventually did did against the Honda powered MP4/4.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 April 2014 - 10:35.

[Otaku]

50% effective - as far as I remember John Watson did not finish.

 

Well... yea, what I meant was a win/start ratio of 1.

[George Costanza]

 


In fairness to the TAG, don't forget that the 1988 Honda had to deliver performances way below that what was asked of the TAG in '86 and '87. And from what I can figure out, it is defendable to say that the 1988 Honda had many more brand newly designed components in 1988 then the TAG had is 1987. In fact, the TAG was on the edge of its performances in 86 and 87.
It is indeed a tantalizing thought what would have happened had funding for the TAG been found to continue one more year because the '88 rules could have been pretty well within the boundaries in which the TAG had thrived in its early years.
Had it been maintained and developed with the same zeal as Honda had done with their engine.....
Same is said by the way about the Cosworth V6.

Henri




Edit: Added

Makes you wonder how the season could have been if Senna and Piquet had remained where they were in 1987 and Mclaren using the TAG one last year.

Imagine: Piquet and Manseel with Williams-Honda's one more year, Senna with the Lotus-Honda, Prost with the Mclaren-TAG.
My gut feeling says that by then Williams would have been all dominant but possibly that Prost and Senna could have surprised on occasion and perhaps the Ferraris a bit better then they eventually did did against the Honda powered MP4/4.

Henri

 

I think Ayrton would have won it either way.

[917k]

This thread is good to illustrate one thing that more recent fans take as a given - that the cars, throughout the decades - have been evenly matched and that domination is just associated with Red Bull and Ferrari [and now MB] of the past decade.

 

Those that wistfully refer to the eighties and nineties as a time of great competition are [generally] mistaken. Great innovation yes, but often the racing was quite dire.

Edited by 917k, 09 April 2014 - 18:33.

[Atreiu]

The fastest is F2002. it got the pole a year a later....

 

However, in terms of PURE pace? Williams FW14B by a mile. The fact that Nigel got 14 poles with it, is incredible.  Had Senna been in that Williams, the margins would be even greater than the McLaren MP4/4.

 

The 1992 Mexico GP is prime example.... That car was nearly 1 second faster than Schumacher's Benetton and over 2.4 seconds faster than Ayrton in the Mac Honda. In Brazil of 1992, it was 2.1 seconds faster than Senna and 2.7 seconds faster than Berger in the Mac-Honda.

 

 

My immediate answer was the F2002, perhaps because it is a much more recent memory. But the FW14B is also a obvious and very strong candidate for most dominant car ever. Difference between the F2002 and it being near bullet proof perfect reliability was still a decade away.

 

And Mansell seemed to be made for active suspension piloting while Patrese struggled, making the season even less competitive.

[Henri Greuter]

I think Ayrton would have won it either way.

 

 

Not so sure on that,

McLaren did howver make a brandnew gearbox to maximize the lower lay-out of the Honda engine while Lotus tilted the engine and thus benefitted less than McLaren did. It shall always remain a question what Williams would have done had they been offered the 1988 Honda engine. Follow Lotus or what McLaren did. Somehow I think Williams would have followed the Lotus path in which case both cars would likely be more equal the the Lotus eveuntally was compared with the Honda powered MP4/4.

But somehow , even if both Williaams hand Honda used a tilted drivertrain, given the fact that Williams was better than Lotus in 1987, I have the feeling they would continuing to be the better car in 1988 too. And if Senna could make the difference over Piquet and Mansell while these two were also fighting another to near death?

 

Could have been an interesting season

 

 

Henri

[derstatic]

 


And to rub it in aven more: that third driver using basically the same engine.....


henri

Yes and the older Piquet was certainly not a mug driver.

[Briz]

I think Ayrton would have won it either way.

 

Probably not without what he learned from Prost and McLaren through 1988... I think that experience was very important

[George Costanza]

Yes, I forgot about Monaco 1988.... Yes that was the turning point for Ayrton. But Ayrton had unlucky moments in 1985 when he was leading the championship, actually. Too many DNFs. But I think if would depend on the chassis of the Lotus if Ayrton remained there.

[Henri Greuter]

 

My immediate answer was the F2002, perhaps because it is a much more recent memory. But the FW14B is also a obvious and very strong candidate for most dominant car ever. Difference between the F2002 and it being near bullet proof perfect reliability was still a decade away.
 
And Mansell seemed to be made for active suspension piloting while Patrese struggled, making the season even less competitive.

Whern it comes to results as can be found back in the statistics, then `my` top must be the 1988 Mclaren Honda MP4/4, the 1996 Williams-Renault FW18 and the Ferraris F2002 and F2004. These four cars have the best finish records and point scores to boost for their supremacy.

At the time when I did aal that research, I was surprised to see that the 1992 and 1993 Williams cars which I remember to be all dominant that year hardly feature any of the records set by the four cars I listed.
maybe that is because of being not as reliable enough compared with these four cars.

If the FW14B is listed for being so much better than its opponents, then there is another car that comes to my mind as bening far and away the fastest car of the year but with a disastrous finish record and thus not showing this with results in the stats or within the memory of the fans:

the 1982 Renault RE30B.

It had a number of pole positions yet `only` four victories, one of them a double victory, and a highly controversial one too. But how often did they take off from the field only to retire prematurely?
Out of 32 starts: 17 retirements and a non-classification and only 3rd in the constructors title.


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 10 April 2014 - 09:35.