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#1 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 14:36

Ok, so, Sunday we saw yet another example of losing lap upon lap of racing while we wait for a couple of cars to drive round to get a lap back and catch back to the back of the pack. Surely this has to be sorted. I can't remember what lap the SC came in, but I'm pretty certain it came in at least 2 laps later than it needed to. For me it should be a case of let them through before the end of S1 and go racing at the end of that lap. Ok, they may not be caught up, but............without meaning to sound cynical, so what? Get racing. It's a major drawback of the rules. If the track is clear for them to go round unlapping themselves, the track is clear to go racing. I want to see the cars racing!


Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 08 April 2014 - 14:37.


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#2 917k

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:07

Ok, so, Sunday we saw yet another example of losing lap upon lap of racing while we wait for a couple of cars to drive round to get a lap back and catch back to the back of the pack. Surely this has to be sorted. I can't remember what lap the SC came in, but I'm pretty certain it came in at least 2 laps later than it needed to. For me it should be a case of let them through before the end of S1 and go racing at the end of that lap. Ok, they may not be caught up, but............without meaning to sound cynical, so what? Get racing. It's a major drawback of the rules. If the track is clear for them to go round unlapping themselves, the track is clear to go racing. I want to see the cars racing!

 

Agree - why not just have lapped cars fall back and join at the end of the line. I know, technically not ''unlapped'' but who cares.....



#3 Jejking

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:17

For such a hightech sport it's nothing short of embarassing that they can't fix a computer that can add or retract laps from certain cars.



#4 EndlessMotion

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:19

This, along with Charlie starting every wet race under a safety car, really winds me up. Would it work to have the lapped cars peel off from the pack after the final turn into the pit lane, run through and stack up at the pit exit until the trail of cars goes past turn 1 before releasing the cars to join the back of the pack again?

 

Much like the post above by 917k they wouldn't technically be "unlapped" but surely it's not difficult for the computers keeping track of laps to account for this? I guess you could then argue these cars would have an "extra lap" left in their tires compared to the rest of the field though.



#5 Lights

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:21

Through everything that went on in the final laps and the aftermath I almost forgot how this waiting frustrated me. It took far too long. T1 was clear for at least 3 laps before they continued racing. 



#6 S3baman

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:25

This rule bugged me ever since it's inception a few seasons ago. Even Nascar manages to get going faster than F1 and that's with a field of 43 cars. Granted, the tracks are shorter than F1 but we want to see racing not Bernd running at the front of the pack in a SLS Gullwing.



#7 superden

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:26

It ensures that the dangerous and subversive act of 'overtaking' is limited as far as is possible and that nothing as 'dirty' as overtaking spoils a front runners day. Not that it matters anyway as, with DRS, energy boost and 'one defensive manoeuvre allowed', the art of overtaking is pretty stifled anyway. I was always sure overtaking cars, be they lapped or not, was a part of racing but I now accept that I was quite, quite wrong and apologise unreservedly.



#8 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:40

It is frustrating, because you can see the track is clear (and it must be for them to allow lapped cars past). It may not be super terrible at a track like Monza where it's a short lap and there's lots of straights, but the amount of time lost while a backmarker catches up to the back of the pack around Singapore for example is farcical. It's annoying enough that they wait until everyone has pitted and is in a line behind the SC before they allow the lapped cars to go past. We probably lose a lap just from waiting for them to let the lapped cars past because we're waiting for the field to be in a line all together, let alone the laps lost because we have to wait for the backmarkers to actually get back to the end of the line.


Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 08 April 2014 - 15:43.


#9 ANF

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:45

As far as I can recall, the unlapping in Bahrain took three extra laps. It's a mess.



#10 kedia990

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:52

It ensures that the dangerous and subversive act of 'overtaking' is limited as far as is possible and that nothing as 'dirty' as overtaking spoils a front runners day. Not that it matters anyway as, with DRS, energy boost and 'one defensive manoeuvre allowed', the art of overtaking is pretty stifled anyway. I was always sure overtaking cars, be they lapped or not, was a part of racing but I now accept that I was quite, quite wrong and apologise unreservedly.

 

:lol:  :lol:  Superden, Ph.D. (Sarcasm)

 

Good one  :up:



#11 Kristian

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 15:58

I like the rule in principle, as indeed the awesome lead battles we had in Bahrain would have been disrupted with the backmarkers there. 

 

But it just takes one lap to let them past the 'snake', then start the race. They are down in 15th, they don't need to catch up. They are already closer than they would have been without the SC. 

 

Using a computer to give laps back, etc. wouldn't work imo as that disrupts the integrity of the racing. And if a leader is between a battling Marussia and Caterham, and then the latter has to drop back a lap and not have a chance of potentially getting a major position in the championship then that's unfair. Or if they are given a lap less on a tyre or fuel then they might have an advantage which is equally unfair, so I can see why they do this. 


Edited by Kristian, 08 April 2014 - 15:59.


#12 Youichi

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 16:19

Would it work to have the lapped cars peel off from the pack after the final turn into the pit lane, run through and stack up at the pit exit until the trail of cars goes past turn 1 before releasing the cars to join the back of the pack again?

 

This ! I've been saying this since the rule was introduced.

 

The problem they were trying to solve, is lapped cars disrupting the lead battle, this is the obvious solution. Don't give them a lap back, just get them out the way.



#13 FerrariV12

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 16:55

They shouldn't move the cars at all - If someone has built up a sufficient lead to have lapped traffic between him and his pursuer when a safety car comes out, then he deserves at the very least to have that buffer on the restart. I can accept the use of the safety car for, well, safety reasons, but any form of this rule, whether letting them unlap or moving them to the back, is basically admitting that it's almost as much for the show as it is for safely clearing cars out the way.



#14 rooksby

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:03

Not sure why we still need an actual Safety Car trundling around out there.

 

The drivers can't exceed their FIA supplied delta time as soon as the SC board comes out, that system works already, seems proven, and slows things down instantly. They don't need an actual mechanical car to come wandering out onto the track and then play a long game of find the race-leader round Spa. Let's apply some of that pinnacle of motorsport technology to proceedings.

 

Keep supplying sector deltas to the drivers dashboard until the track is clear. When it is and we are ready to go green, the cars are released from their delta limit only as their transponders pass the start-finish line on the restart.

 

No more unnecessary messing about waiting for a stack of cars to organise itself. It also allows all the cars to (roughly) maintain the time gaps they had built-up before the incident. A nice, quick, efficient SC period (with no SC), unlike now never longer than is absolutely necessary, get back to the racing, and a fairer system than the current lottery.

 

 

Personally I don't agree with the lapped traffic being moved out the way. I know it adds a bit of juice to restarts, but it's fake. The leaders had to pass those cars, I don't see why cars behind should have them spirited out the way. But if everyone else says they want them removed, then I agree with the other suggestion, send them down the pitlane.



#15 Otaku

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:05

They shouldn't move the cars at all - If someone has built up a sufficient lead to have lapped traffic between him and his pursuer when a safety car comes out, then he deserves at the very least to have that buffer on the restart. I can accept the use of the safety car for, well, safety reasons, but any form of this rule, whether letting them unlap or moving them to the back, is basically admitting that it's almost as much for the show as it is for safely clearing cars out the way.

 

This, but F1 is regulated by idiots, so common sense will NEVER prevail.



#16 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:08

They shouldn't move the cars at all - If someone has built up a sufficient lead to have lapped traffic between him and his pursuer when a safety car comes out, then he deserves at the very least to have that buffer on the restart. I can accept the use of the safety car for, well, safety reasons, but any form of this rule, whether letting them unlap or moving them to the back, is basically admitting that it's almost as much for the show as it is for safely clearing cars out the way.

 

This^

 

The reasons given for having cars unlap themselves have always been a load of rubbish.

 

Not sure why we still need an actual Safety Car trundling around out there.

So that race control has another pair of eyes out on the track to say everything is clear and ready for a restart.

 

The drivers can only just see their own wheels, they wouldn't be able to confirm to race control that the track is clear


Edited by johnmhinds, 08 April 2014 - 17:08.


#17 Atreiu

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:13

The simplest solution is the best, pick up the leader and let the rest of field remain exactly where it is. The SC isn't supposed to get anyone out of a tough spot or artificially shuffle the track order.

 

Sadly, there will be times backmarkers come between track battles, but it the price that has to be paid to avoid red flags at every GP.



#18 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:22

Not sure why we still need an actual Safety Car trundling around out there.

 

The drivers can't exceed their FIA supplied delta time as soon as the SC board comes out, that system works already, seems proven, and slows things down instantly. They don't need an actual mechanical car to come wandering out onto the track and then play a long game of find the race-leader round Spa. Let's apply some of that pinnacle of motorsport technology to proceedings.

 

Keep supplying sector deltas to the drivers dashboard until the track is clear. When it is and we are ready to go green, the cars are released from their delta limit only as their transponders pass the start-finish line on the restart.

 

No more unnecessary messing about waiting for a stack of cars to organise itself. It also allows all the cars to (roughly) maintain the time gaps they had built-up before the incident. A nice, quick, efficient SC period (with no SC), unlike now never longer than is absolutely necessary, get back to the racing, and a fairer system than the current lottery.

 

 

Personally I don't agree with the lapped traffic being moved out the way. I know it adds a bit of juice to restarts, but it's fake. The leaders had to pass those cars, I don't see why cars behind should have them spirited out the way. But if everyone else says they want them removed, then I agree with the other suggestion, send them down the pitlane.

 

Disagree totally. Do you think it's safe to have marshals running out onto the race track, onto the racing line around a blind corner to move debris out of the way, with cars coming towards them at speed at totally random intervals?



#19 Fastcake

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:44

Disagree totally. Do you think it's safe to have marshals running out onto the race track, onto the racing line around a blind corner to move debris out of the way, with cars coming towards them at speed at totally random intervals?

 

It is unfortunate people tend to forget the safety of the marshals when talking about the safety car. Apart from their safety, having an empty track for a few minutes makes it a lot easier to clean the debris. I imagine it isn't easy to sweep the track even if the cars are pootling about at 30mph.



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#20 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:50

Easy solution: Instead of letting lapped cars overtake, just let them fall back. Costs a lot less time, you get the same effect (they're not in the way of the leaders), and they don't get the advantage of unlapping themselves.

 

I can't believe the 'smart' people from the FIA haven't come up with this yet.



#21 Nonesuch

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:51

Not sure why we still need an actual Safety Car trundling around out there.

 

The drivers can't exceed their FIA supplied delta time as soon as the SC board comes out, that system works already, seems proven, and slows things down instantly.

 

I agree with your proposal in theory, but we have to consider that F1 drivers are notoriously terrible at observing the yellow flags, single or double.

 

The delta times are nice enough, but I wouldn't be so sure it's enough to guarantee the safety of marshals on the track, and possibly medical personnel as well.

 

The drivers have ruined this for themselves by saying a waved hand or a momentary lifting of the throttle shows they are 'in complete control' when blasting past a double waved yellow.


Edited by Nonesuch, 08 April 2014 - 17:54.


#22 rooksby

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:57

The cars are already out there at delta speed for the first few laps waiting to find a Safety Car. That is right now. Those are the critical laps when an injured driver requires attention. That at present cars all over the place for several laps doesn't seem an issue for the current SC rules.

 

Drivers go past marshalls and double waved yellows driving one handed at almost racing speeds at present. I don't see how a proper system of Delta times represents any sort of unprecedented or reckless additional risk.

 

The delta time can be set to below an SLS slow speed for those initial laps if you require.

 

If the incident is total carnage, such that you feel cars moving at current SC speed would represent an unacceptable risk, you can send out the Merc, but it sounds like it'd be a red flag you needed if it were that serious.

 

If it's just to shove an awkwardly stopped or stranded car behind a barrier, a quick SafetyCar-less SC period would slow everyone down at once, clear the problem and get going again two laps later.


Edited by rooksby, 08 April 2014 - 18:15.


#23 RubalSher

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:58

Agree - why not just have lapped cars fall back and join at the end of the line. I know, technically not ''unlapped'' but who cares.....

 

Something else I noticed this race. The SC actually picked up Kvyat and RoGro first when it came out and HAM and ROS were behind these two. However, these two cars (KVY and RoGRO) were let through by the SC right away so that it could pick up HAM.

 

Now my question is that if lapped cars are not allowed to pass until the incident has been cleared up for safety reasons, how come KVY and RoGRO were let through by the SC.

 

If the SC can let all cars pass between it and the leader right away, surely lapped cars should also be let through right away. This will save all of us the 2-3 laps that it always takes to unlap the cars.



#24 RubalSher

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 17:59

I agree with your proposal in theory, but we have to consider that F1 drivers are notoriously terrible at observing the yellow flags, single or double.

 

The delta times are nice enough, but I wouldn't be so sure it's enough to guarantee the safety of marshals on the track, and possibly medical personnel as well.

 

The drivers have ruined this for themselves by saying a waved hand or a momentary lifting of the throttle shows they are 'in complete control' when blasting past a double waved yellow.

 

 

See my last post. The SC does let any cars between it and the leader pass it right away. Is that not a safety concern??



#25 Tomecek

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 18:01

You people don't know what you want. Remember e.g. Singapore 2012. You have to sacrifice two or three laps to make proper racing.

#26 Red17

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 18:40

Easy solution: Instead of letting lapped cars overtake, just let them fall back. Costs a lot less time, you get the same effect (they're not in the way of the leaders), and they don't get the advantage of unlapping themselves.

 

I can't believe the 'smart' people from the FIA haven't come up with this yet.

 

I think that's how it happens in Nascar nowdays, at least I have seen a couple races were cars stopped on track to "get to the rear".

 

The FIA would do well to prevent accidents likle Montoya's crash into a cleaning truck which was directly related to him speeding under yellow to catch up the field. Heck! Nascar even uses 2 pace cars to form up the starting grid!



#27 Myrvold

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 19:01

I think that's how it happens in Nascar nowdays, at least I have seen a couple races were cars stopped on track to "get to the rear".


That's not unlapping is it?

#28 Clatter

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 20:54

The cars are already out there at delta speed for the first few laps waiting to find a Safety Car. That is right now. Those are the critical laps when an injured driver requires attention. That at present cars all over the place for several laps doesn't seem an issue for the current SC rules.

 

Drivers go past marshalls and double waved yellows driving one handed at almost racing speeds at present. I don't see how a proper system of Delta times represents any sort of unprecedented or reckless additional risk.

 

The delta time can be set to below an SLS slow speed for those initial laps if you require.

 

If the incident is total carnage, such that you feel cars moving at current SC speed would represent an unacceptable risk, you can send out the Merc, but it sounds like it'd be a red flag you needed if it were that serious.

 

If it's just to shove an awkwardly stopped or stranded car behind a barrier, a quick SafetyCar-less SC period would slow everyone down at once, clear the problem and get going again two laps later.

To repeat what has already been said, using delta times means the field will be spread out and the Marshalls will not have a clear period of time without having to dodge cars. 



#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 21:09

To repeat what has already been said, using delta times means the field will be spread out and the Marshalls will not have a clear period of time without having to dodge cars. 

 

But we can use delta times to bunch the field, and then release them back to their original gaps.

 

Maybe that's not what rooksby meant, but I took that idea from his post.



#30 Vepe1995

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 21:58

This issue is interesting. From what I've gathered from previous discussions, is that there are two main arguments against this current system:

  • Time it takes
  • Fairness

 

I agree that it currently takes too much time and I believe it could be easily reduced.

 

The other argument is quite interesting. Usually people moan about the gap between the leader and the rest of the drivers being wiped out. This is sometimes accompanied by moaning about allowing the backmarkers to unlap themselves, because the leader had to lap them and the rest don't have to because they get to unlap themselves.

When they want fairness, they only think about what happens at the front and forget the rest. Thing is, the safety car is never fair. To make it fair would require a complicated system of releasing the cars in interwalls with the original gaps. And because it's too complicated, they are trying to make the safety car least unfair.

 

An example.

 

A lap takes 1 minute and 40 seconds. Driver A leads the race by 10 seconds from driver B, currently in second. Drivers C and D are 10th and 11th, seperated by 5 seconds. Driver A has lapped driver D when the safety car comes out.

 

If the order is retained:

  • Driver A loses his gap to driver B, but driver B still has to lap driver D
  • Driver D's gap to driver C increases from 5 seconds to 1 minute and 30 seconds.

If the lapped driver are allowed to unlap themselves:

  • Driver A loses his gap to driver B and driver B doesn't have to lap driver D
  • Driver C loses his gap to driver D

Now I believe that losing 10 seconds is less than losing 1 minute and 30 seconds. Infact, the difference is 1 minute and 20 seconds.

 

 

 

There are also other suggestions that would replace the safety car completely. The most radical ones are simply not using it and using the red flag and having a restart.

These have som major issues. If a driver collides with anoter driver and loses his front wing that is left on the racing line, what is going to happen? Are they just going to leave it there and hope noone hits it? Are they going to send marshalls to retrieve the wing in an active race track with nothing to protect him/her other than waved yellows? Are they going to red flag the race and have a restart?

 

Another one is using a code 60-ish system, which forces the drivers to drive at a certain speed. This is a lot better than the radical versions, but it still has flaws. Obviously the drivers can't slow down from 320 kph to 60 or 80 or whatever kph, so how long is the window to slow down? It also means there will be no clear period during which the marshalls can go and retrieve the wing or whatever is out on the track.

 

What most people don't think about when complaining about the safety car is that it allows a safe working environment for the marshalls.



#31 wrighty

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 22:47

*sighs*

 

Don't take this badly but there's an important point that people tend to miss:

When the safety car pulls out, the first car a lap down can unlap himself. If he does this by falling back to the tail of the queue, he not only gets his lap back, he also closes the gap to the car ahead but also (this is the bone of contention) he does so while not travelling the same distance as the car ahead, simply because (as an example) the car ahead (i.e. the last car on the leader lap) has done the same number of laps as the leader but the next car behind does one lap less. If a race is fuel-limited at all, this then means that the car behind has saved a lap of fuel and therefore has that fuel in hand for a challenge once the green waves.

 

Or to put it another way:

At 50 laps when the SC comes out

Driver A (10th, 50 laps) >>>5 sec gap>>> Leader (50 laps) >>> 5 sec gap >>>>> Driver B (11th, 49 laps)

 

Field reforms behind SC for 2 laps

Leader (52 laps)>2>3>4 etc > 10th (52 laps) > 11th (51 laps)

 

This is why the car making its lap back has to do the distance. Protecting the marshals is key, hence he can't blaze round at qually speed. It's unfortunate but there is logic to it.

 

sorry ;)



#32 Vepe1995

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 23:04

-snip-

 

Was this directed at me? Because I don't support that method you descibed.



#33 Fastcake

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 23:11

*sighs*

 

Don't take this badly but there's an important point that people tend to miss:

When the safety car pulls out, the first car a lap down can unlap himself. If he does this by falling back to the tail of the queue, he not only gets his lap back, he also closes the gap to the car ahead but also (this is the bone of contention) he does so while not travelling the same distance as the car ahead, simply because (as an example) the car ahead (i.e. the last car on the leader lap) has done the same number of laps as the leader but the next car behind does one lap less. If a race is fuel-limited at all, this then means that the car behind has saved a lap of fuel and therefore has that fuel in hand for a challenge once the green waves.

 

Or to put it another way:

At 50 laps when the SC comes out

Driver A (10th, 50 laps) >>>5 sec gap>>> Leader (50 laps) >>> 5 sec gap >>>>> Driver B (11th, 49 laps)

 

Field reforms behind SC for 2 laps

Leader (52 laps)>2>3>4 etc > 10th (52 laps) > 11th (51 laps)

 

This is why the car making its lap back has to do the distance. Protecting the marshals is key, hence he can't blaze round at qually speed. It's unfortunate but there is logic to it.

 

sorry ;)

 

Simple, they don't unlap themselves when moving back, they simply get out of the way so the cars are lined up from first to last. Since the sole idea behind this rule is to allow a fight after the restart, this would be the best way to achieve that without needless laps under the safety car.



#34 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 23:45

I don´t understand why they wait for lapped drivers to catch up again. It´s nonsense. Just let them go the lap before racing starts to get them out of the way, but don´t wait for them to catch up again. They were lapped, you´re already giving them back half a lap roughly, no need to wait for them to catch upagain.

 

So as soon as track is clear, you release the lapped cars, and as soon as they´re out of the pack, next pass through the start line is the restart, regardless of where they are.


Edited by Skinnyguy, 08 April 2014 - 23:48.


#35 Vepe1995

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 23:52

I don´t understand why they wait for lapped drivers to catch up again. It´s nonsense. Just let them go at the start of the lap before racing starts to get them out of the way, but don´t wait for them to catch up again. They were lapped, you´re already giving them back half a lap, no need to wait for them again.

 

I agree with this. However I wouldn't do it exactly like that.

 

I can't remember, but I think the drivers aren't allowed to 'race to the flag' when the SC is called out. So when SC is called out, the drivers on the lead lap are ordered to one side of the track and the lapped ones to the other and they are immediately allowed to unlap themselves. That takes less time than the current system, which is good.



#36 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 00:28

I agree with this. However I wouldn't do it exactly like that.

 

I can't remember, but I think the drivers aren't allowed to 'race to the flag' when the SC is called out. So when SC is called out, the drivers on the lead lap are ordered to one side of the track and the lapped ones to the other and they are immediately allowed to unlap themselves. That takes less time than the current system, which is good.

 

Having people unlapping themselves right away and driving around on their own to the back of the pack while the marshals are still dealing with an accident undermines the whole reason for the safety car.

 

Having the lapped cars drive through the pit lane is the safest way to move them out of the way if we really must do it.

 

But as i've already said I think the pack should stay in the order it was before the safety car and we shouldn't be messing around with any kind of unlapping to improve or "spice up" the show.


Edited by johnmhinds, 09 April 2014 - 00:28.


#37 itsnoe30

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 00:53

Having people unlapping themselves right away and driving around on their own to the back of the pack while the marshals are still dealing with an accident undermines the whole reason for the safety car.

 

Having the lapped cars drive through the pit lane is the safest way to move them out of the way if we really must do it.

 

But as i've already said I think the pack should stay in the order it was before the safety car and we shouldn't be messing around with any kind of unlapping to improve or "spice up" the show.

Easy solution to that: Make them drive on the pit-lane speed limiter through the section where the accident is. Any driver caught speeding gets a one race ban.



#38 rooksby

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:48

To repeat what has already been said, using delta times means the field will be spread out and the Marshalls will not have a clear period of time without having to dodge cars. 

 

... but it is not for lack of repetition that some people are not entirely convinced that it represents a real problem.

 

It currently takes a couple of laps to form up a full SC train, that means a couple of laps with cars all round the track, driving to deltas. That happens now till the Merc finds the two Mercs, and then till all the other cars find the tail. Cars also get waved past as the SC tries to find a leader, more cars roaming wild ontrack, without benefit of safe deltas. Pit lanes get way too dangerous as teams suddenly scramble to mitigate the worst effects of the Safety Car lottery and mechanics nervously watch their legs.

 

I am not sure how fast you think I imagine the deltas to be, I'd argue they could easily be slower than typical SC train speed (especially compared to now, the deltas wouldn't have to catch-up to any safety car). You can apply a massive additional delta in the accident affected sector if you want. I can't immediately recall a large number of SC incidents that a series of slow moving individual cars, not in a train, would have represented any significant additional danger.

 

We then consider marshals in the firing line under waved yellows ... this too happens right now, and is far more dangerous than SC deltas. Cars at racing speed, humans pushing cars, and diggers and cranes driving across gravel traps, in the rain.  I'd argue this quite unsatisfactory state of affairs is in part because the current SC procedure is such a protracted ugly mess. Race control are reluctant to push the button. If SC periods could be made more efficient, we could perhaps consider eliminating many waved yellows.

 

So we'd have a proven safe procedure (it's what happens now for those initial laps), a bonus potential for elimination of some particularly unsafe procedures, and the whole thing would be much, much, quicker and fairer and less complicated. On balance the whole scheme seems like an upgrade to me.



#39 SR388

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:54

It seems that many F1 fans have the memory of a goldfish. The issue with just leaving the lapped cars where they were is that we got robbed of any excitement from the restart. Fans complained very loudly about the lapped cars. In terms of the extra laps under caution, they may have to look at just scoring them accurately and doing away with the loop around. There could be a potential issue in terms ensuring they run the right mileage, but they can find a workaround. 



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#40 Vepe1995

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:29

Having people unlapping themselves right away and driving around on their own to the back of the pack while the marshals are still dealing with an accident undermines the whole reason for the safety car.

 

Having the lapped cars drive through the pit lane is the safest way to move them out of the way if we really must do it.

 

But as i've already said I think the pack should stay in the order it was before the safety car and we shouldn't be messing around with any kind of unlapping to improve or "spice up" the show.

 

Surely they don't work on the track when the cars are still catching up to the SC?



#41 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:58

I still don't see why it's a problem to have them drop back (possibly via the pits) and stay a lap down? Why do they have to get their lap back?

 

Edit: That is, if we have to have the lead lap cars together for the restart. I'd still prefer if the field just formed up as they were with the leader at the front and then just got on with it.


Edited by PayasYouRace, 09 April 2014 - 08:22.


#42 SenorSjon

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:03

It took six laps to get the SC out of the way. And it was late already before coming out. That Sauber wasn't going anywhere with all four tires at different angles at the car.

 

You people don't know what you want. Remember e.g. Singapore 2012. You have to sacrifice two or three laps to make proper racing.

 

 

It seems that many F1 fans have the memory of a goldfish. The issue with just leaving the lapped cars where they were is that we got robbed of any excitement from the restart. Fans complained very loudly about the lapped cars. In terms of the extra laps under caution, they may have to look at just scoring them accurately and doing away with the loop around. There could be a potential issue in terms ensuring they run the right mileage, but they can find a workaround. 

 

'Proper racing'? Doesn't proper mean fair racing? The leader already has his lead cut, but he wasted tires and time passing lapped cars the nr. 2 didn't have to pass. We tried this rule before and it was stopped after a year. Now it is back again and it is as abysmal as ever. I don't want to watch six laps (with the only V8 on track however) of SC cruising.

 

Edit

And remember how Webber got a points finish last year, while the guy in front had a lap on him. He was passed due to this lapgiving.


Edited by SenorSjon, 09 April 2014 - 08:04.


#43 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:05

Never watch IndyCar, OP. Its infuriating. lol

#44 Lights

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:17

The more I think about it, the more I think lapped cars should just stay where they are. It's fairer for the overall result. The SC already shrinks all the gaps, why does it matter so much that there are some lapped cars inbetween? And for lapped cars, perhaps they do not deserve their lap back. I'd rather have the old system back, at least then we went back to racing as soon as the track was cleared and we didn't have to wait an additional 7 or 8 minutes for no reason.



#45 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:22

The more I think about it, the more I think lapped cars should just stay where they are. It's fairer for the overall result. The SC already shrinks all the gaps, why does it matter so much that there are some lapped cars inbetween? And for lapped cars, perhaps they do not deserve their lap back. I'd rather have the old system back, at least then we went back to racing as soon as the track was cleared and we didn't have to wait an additional 7 or 8 minutes for no reason.

I think the drivers actually complained about that because of the large speed differential between front runners and the lapped cars. This isn't such a big issue when things are spread out and the lapped cars can be picked off in isolation and clear blue flags can be waved and everything. But when coming out of a safety car period, everything is very tightly packed and it becomes a bit chaotic. Lapped cars are still under obligation to let the lead cars by, so they basically spend quite a bit of the first lap or two just trying to stay out of the way, which probably isn't much fun, and risky when they might be racing other nearby, lapped cars themselves.

#46 Lights

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:29

I think the drivers actually complained about that because of the large speed differential between front runners and the lapped cars. This isn't such a big issue when things are spread out and the lapped cars can be picked off in isolation and clear blue flags can be waved and everything. But when coming out of a safety car period, everything is very tightly packed and it becomes a bit chaotic. Lapped cars are still under obligation to let the lead cars by, so they basically spend quite a bit of the first lap or two just trying to stay out of the way, which probably isn't much fun, and risky when they might be racing other nearby, lapped cars themselves.

 

Yeah, also true. I still remember Button being 2nd at a Hungary restart in 2006 but because a lapped Sato, Massa and R. Sch were fighting in front of him, he lost like 10 seconds to Alonso, and boy was I pissed then as well. It seems there is no ideal solution to this. Maybe instead of winning the lap back, lapped cars should simply fall back through the pack under the safety car until the correct race order is in place.



#47 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:33

Yeah, also true. I still remember Button being 2nd at a Hungary restart in 2006 but because a lapped Sato, Massa and R. Sch were fighting in front of him, he lost like 10 seconds to Alonso, and boy was I pissed then as well. It seems there is no ideal solution to this. Maybe instead of winning the lap back, lapped cars should simply fall back through the pack under the safety car until the correct race order is in place.

I think that's a pretty good idea. Shouldn't be too difficult and would speed things up dramatically. Also keeps the cars bunched together so whatever work needs to be done on-track can get done without worry about cars flying around to catch up to the back of the grid.

#48 Jon83

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:48

Lights and PayasYouRace have the right idea.

 

Something needed to change but what they have done isn't any good. I remember Brazil 2010 one of the Red Bulls cars (possibly Alguersuari) holding up Alonso after a safety car restart when the senior teams cars where able to sprint ahead - so to avoid situations like that, I'm glad a change was made.



#49 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:21

F1 tracks are mostly Tilkedromes with wide front straights. How about double file restarts? Lead lap cars on the racing line, lapped cars on the other side?

 

Just throwing it out there. Not really what I'd prefer.



#50 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:26

F1 tracks are mostly Tilkedromes with wide front straights. How about double file restarts? Lead lap cars on the racing line, lapped cars on the other side?
 
Just throwing it out there. Not really what I'd prefer.

No no no no no no.