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Lapped cars/Safety Car


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#51 Jon83

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:41

F1 tracks are mostly Tilkedromes with wide front straights. How about double file restarts? Lead lap cars on the racing line, lapped cars on the other side?

 

Just throwing it out there. Not really what I'd prefer.

 

Please no.



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#52 Retrofly

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:55

They need to bunch up all the cars so they can have a period where there are no cars on a section of track. Without the gap marshals cannot easily clear debris, seep the track, check for damage to the surface etc.

 

I do agree that back markers should just fall back, you could probably sort the running order in about the third of the time. This also keeps all the cars in the same place on track which helps with the above :up:



#53 wrighty

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 17:06

Firstly Vepe, no my post wasn't directed at you, no offence meant so apologies if it was taken.

 

Simple, they don't unlap themselves when moving back, they simply get out of the way so the cars are lined up from first to last. Since the sole idea behind this rule is to allow a fight after the restart, this would be the best way to achieve that without needless laps under the safety car.

 

Erm all that says then is 'ok if you're on the lead lap then the gaps are reduced and you have a false chance to take places......but if you were a lap down on the leader but only 10 secs behind the car in front then you'll be a full lap behind that same car'? That's kinda unfair to 'the smaller teams', especially when their livelihood is based more on a single position here and there, rather than points for the bigger teams (as a reminder, Marussia have only had a pair of 13ths this season,which is nothing points-wise but is crucial to their efforts against Caterham when it comes to payouts at the end of the season).

 

I was trying to think of scenarios where this comes into play last night (unsuccessfully, but it was late lol), but consider an SC during the pitstop phase.....lets say Alonso or Ricciardo or magnussen have been involved in an early shmozzle and drop back to 10th-ish,  20 laps later they pit, the leader passes and then a lap later there's an SC - if they're a lap down should they then be pushed back in the queue and told they have no chance of recovering the lap? Can you see Luca or Horner or Ron wearing that? If there's gonna be a rule, it HAS to be consistent for all teams and tbh i'd rather have a couple of minutes behind the SC than weeks of crying on here because 'Alonso got fvcked by the SC rule AGAIN' lol



#54 Vepe1995

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 18:45

Firstly Vepe, no my post wasn't directed at you, no offence meant so apologies if it was taken.

 

No offence taken, I was merely confused of to whom your post was directed...



#55 FerrariV12

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:45

It seems that many F1 fans have the memory of a goldfish. The issue with just leaving the lapped cars where they were is that we got robbed of any excitement from the restart. Fans complained very loudly about the lapped cars. In terms of the extra laps under caution, they may have to look at just scoring them accurately and doing away with the loop around. There could be a potential issue in terms ensuring they run the right mileage, but they can find a workaround. 

 

It's almost like those you mention, and those complaining now are different people, with different opinions ;)

 

It's all opinions but I've never cared about being robbed of excitement from the restart - if we accept that the safety car is a necessary evil for safety reasons (it's already been discussed above - having the gaps remain and driving to deltas wouldn't be practical as the marshals wouldn't have that 2-3 minutes of empty track at a time), but how is having the cars bunched up in track order any less exciting than what came before any safety car with the cars potentially spread out?

 

On the other hand, if the sport is openly manipulating the running order on a restart for the purposes of the almighty show (and it is), then for me that's only one step away from Bill France throwing his wristwatch onto the track, GWCs, and all that.



#56 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 09:20

Common sense is a wonderful thing

 

 http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116657

 

Sources have suggested that one idea that will be looked at is that rather than the lapped cars unlapping themselves, they simply drop back to the rear of the field instead.



#57 ed24f1

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 09:22

I don't agree that they should get a lap back at all. Plus, it would be easier to make them follow the SC and drive through the pits at the restart rather than dropping back through the field which could cause issues at a tight track like Monaco.



#58 Lights

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 09:29

It's scary that a rule like this can be introduced out of nowhere but in order for it to be dropped years go by before they can arrange a meeting for it. And by the time the rule gets dropped two other ridiculous new rules have been set in place in the meantime.



#59 Henrik B

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 10:53

I don't agree that they should get a lap back at all. Plus, it would be easier to make them follow the SC and drive through the pits at the restart rather than dropping back through the field which could cause issues at a tight track like Monaco.

 

Some goddamn discipline and clear rules would sort that out in no time. Race control messages the entire field "Lapped cars to the right, slow down" and the rest take the left side and they just would have to stop weaving for 30 seconds. Would work even at monaco because even there most of the track has width enough for two cars.



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#60 Kristian

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 10:45

On Autosport its saying the safety car tweaks to get lapped cars down quicker is being rejected: 

 

 

 

Firstly, crediting laps would cause a big problem for timing data and risked causing confusion on the detailed lap chart analysis that is provided by Formula One Management.

Furthermore, with teams limited to 100kg of fuel for a race, the crediting of a lap without actually driving it risked handing lapped cars an advantage - as it effectively gives them a free lap's worth of fuel.

Teams expressed concern that this fuel credit could have a big impact on race performance and would disadvantage cars that had not been lapped as they would not have a free lap.

 

http://www.autosport....php/id/116723?

 

I like the rule (as it does mean a clean run at the restarts for the leading drivers) and know of the implications of simply letting them drop back - however the solutions seemed quite sensible. Now surely its not beyond the realms of technology to solve the first problem with a bit of programming, and the second problem surely can be done by telling the teams that they need an extra lap's worth of fuel left at the end of the race (again, the limit can be recorded by the ECU surely?). 

 

By the way, is it still standing restarts in 2015? 


Edited by Kristian, 11 November 2014 - 10:45.


#61 Rob

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 11:44

The safety car wasn't designed to be fair. The whole point of it is safety. Why should lapped cars get a lap back? Leave them in the queue.



#62 Mox

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 11:50

The safety car wasn't designed to be fair. The whole point of it is safety. Why should lapped cars get a lap back? Leave them in the queue.

I agree completely. I see no reason why they should be given a lap back. It's an important skill for any racing driver to be able to pass a back marker. Nothing wrong with that!!



#63 pacificquay

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 11:52

Another in the leave them in the queue camp here



#64 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 12:38

I've always thought they should just leave them where they are. If the leader has a backmarker between himself and second, it's unfair enough that he's lost the whole time gap he had, so why should he lose the backmarkers as well? But if it's so important that they do go to the back because it makes the first lap after the restart too difficult for them, just leave them lapped. No reason why they should get a lap back. By the way, if someone has been lapped five times, do we have to wait for them to catch up those five laps?

#65 paipa

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 12:41

Either leave them in the queue, or keep using blue flags during SC in the safe zones, dropping backmarkers to the back while the SC is out instead of those few messy blue-flag-fest laps after restart. The lap credit idea feels wrong.



#66 engineblock1

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 13:06

It's interesting to see people are ok with drivers able to win races thanks to SC but find it pretty unfair if the lapped cars re-gain the lap.



#67 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 13:12

if it's not fair for them to get a lap back it's also not fair for them to be dropped back. 

if the whole point is safety, leave them where they are



#68 le chat noir

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 14:11

Aren't we having standing restarts anyway? why even tour round behind a safety car when you have to stop and line up on a grid?



#69 FerrariV12

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 15:44

About the best argument I've seen for the wave around is that if two cars are battling for position a few seconds apart, one is lapped by the leader just before the SC comes out, then a gap of a few seconds between those two becomes almost a lap. But ultimately someone will always be shafted by the very nature of altering the gaps between the cars, and lining them up in track order behind the leader then just letting them loose again has always seemed the neatest and most logical option, and agree that if the leader has built up enough of a lead to have a a few lapped cars between himself and his pursuer, then he deserves at least that buffer when they go racing again.



#70 alfa1

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 16:06

... if the leader has built up enough of a lead to have a a few lapped cars between himself and his pursuer, then he deserves at least that buffer when they go racing again.

 

"deserves" has nothing to do with it, and neither does safety.

The only reason the lapped cars are told to get out of the way, or that we have a standing restart, is solely for entertainment "spice up the show" purposes.  As fake as a fakely introduced NASCAR "stack them all up once again" safety car.



#71 FerrariV12

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 16:17

The only reason the lapped cars are told to get out of the way, or that we have a standing restart, is solely for entertainment "spice up the show" purposes.

 

Oh I agree completely. I just don't like it :). Above when I said "the best argument" I should should probably have phrased it better "the only argument that makes sense to me"

 

Just noticed I made a post on this thread over half a year ago but is still on this page (my memory isn't what it used to be!) but yeah that sums up my feelings on the matter better.



#72 redreni

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 20:25

Aren't we having standing restarts anyway? why even tour round behind a safety car when you have to stop and line up on a grid?

 

Not every time, no. Not if it's too near the start of the race, too near the end, too soon after a previous standing restart or if Charlie decides he doesn't feel like it because of the track conditions.



#73 TheManAlive

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 20:32

I dont get it, under the current system they get the lap back as they drive around the track to the back of the field. WIth regards to saving fuel how on earth would teams benefit? If there is a safety car then all the teams benefit from trundling around slowly and also how would teams benefit? They would have to know there will be a safety car and then underfuel their cars. Or am I missing something.

 

Just have them drop to the back of the pack and be done with it.



#74 redreni

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 22:34

I dont get it, under the current system they get the lap back as they drive around the track to the back of the field. WIth regards to saving fuel how on earth would teams benefit? If there is a safety car then all the teams benefit from trundling around slowly and also how would teams benefit? They would have to know there will be a safety car and then underfuel their cars. Or am I missing something.

 

Just have them drop to the back of the pack and be done with it.

 

Yes, you're missing something. Just because the SC has been out, it doesn't mean everyone will automatically need zero fuel saving until the end of the race. Most teams will still have to save fuel to some extent, and so gifting some cars a SC lap's worth of fuel would potentially allow them to run harder to the end than their immediate rivals. It could lead to cars that are just ahead of the leader when the SC comes out "doing a Trulli" i.e. "accidentally" going off the circuit and rejoining behind the leader.

 

I must say, though, that I'm a little confused by the mentality that says wave-bys are fine and dandy, but imagining that some cars have done a lap more than they have is not. I guess it's the imaginary lap aspect that they fear will prove too much of an embarassment. Imagine if you had a Monaco-type situation where backmarkers are fighting for a season-defining result, and their entire season's work is undone because they get "beaten" by somebody who's done a lap less than them. You can fiddle with the scoring and the classification after the fact in order to apply a penalty, but when everyone has abided by the rules, then it becomes a bit of a farce to have cars beaten by rivals that have done fewer laps than them.

 

Just bring the SC boards and flags out to restrict the field to the deltas asap after the incident occurs, do not at any stage interfere with the running order, have the SC pick up the leader (not just any old car, to maintain the gaps between cars until they have had an opportunity to pit), run behind the SC until the track is clear, then bring the SC in and get on with it. Leave the lapped cars where they are.

 

In the first couple of laps after a restart, to avoid potential problems of slow cars going off line and then not being able to get back on line without baulking faster traffic, lapped cars should not be expected to jump immediately out of the way for faster cars behind. They should be entitled to drive their line and expect cars on the lead lap to overtake them properly. After two laps, provided the field spread has increased and things aren't too busy, at Race Control's discretion, a message should appear on the timing screens to say that normal blue flag enforcement is resuming.



#75 ANF

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 22:08

Lapped cars will still get a lap back in 2015, but the SC will not stay out until they have rejoined the back of the field.
 

Safety Car: lapped cars

Once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap, the race director will no longer have to wait for all the lapped cars to reach the back of the pack behind the safety car.

http://www.fia.com/n...uncil-2014-doha

 



#76 anbeck

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 07:27

There is a racing god.



#77 redreni

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 14:00

Lapped cars will still get a lap back in 2015, but the SC will not stay out until they have rejoined the back of the field.
 

 

This is better than what we had this year. Still not perfect, but all in all I'm quite astonished by how many silly ideas are being cancelled or reversed at the moment. Long may it continue!



#78 ANF

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 15:27

I just realized that "at the end of the following lap" means there will be an extra lap behind the SC. :(



#79 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 15:55

I just realized that "at the end of the following lap" means there will be an extra lap behind the SC. :(

 

Yeah but the time at which it's deemed safe for them to overtake might be 20 seconds before the S/F line, and that's just far too short notice for them to weave their way through, get past everyone and then everyone go back racing. The reason for the apparent extra lap is because there's no set point in the lap that the decision to let them unlap themselves has to be made. Could be just after they cross the S/F, could be 20 seconds before, could be the middle of the lap. The idea is to get them unlapping themselves ASAP and then we can go back to racing. Doing this is a lot easier than saying "if the decision to let them unlap themselves is made before the end of S2 then the SC comes in that lap and if it's after the end of S2 then they carry on".



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#80 redreni

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 17:23

Yeah but the time at which it's deemed safe for them to overtake might be 20 seconds before the S/F line, and that's just far too short notice for them to weave their way through, get past everyone and then everyone go back racing. The reason for the apparent extra lap is because there's no set point in the lap that the decision to let them unlap themselves has to be made. Could be just after they cross the S/F, could be 20 seconds before, could be the middle of the lap. The idea is to get them unlapping themselves ASAP and then we can go back to racing. Doing this is a lot easier than saying "if the decision to let them unlap themselves is made before the end of S2 then the SC comes in that lap and if it's after the end of S2 then they carry on".

 

But not as easy as leaving the SC out until the track is clear, then bringing it in straight away.