4005 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Part one

 

Carry on!

[jonpollak]

Part deaux?
Already?

Come Monza we'll be on part 37!!!!

Carry on indeed!
Jp

[Retrofly]

Where were we?

 

Oh yeah, Hamilton's the village idiot and Nico's a brain surgeon.

[CHIUNDA]

 

 

As previously mentioned, I really find it unfair that Nico got to do a mammoth amount of development work yesterday, testing different settings and set-ups, long runs and short runs, whilst Lewis was deprived of this opportunity today.

 

 

Retrofly - Yeah but all the data will be shared so its not that much loss.

 

 

 

I am guessing the data is even more useful if Lewis was doing a comparative analysis which would be possible only if Lewis had also done an evaluative test 

Edited by CHIUNDA, 10 April 2014 - 08:51.

[undersquare]

kenkip: LOL this cerebral thing is really winding up Hamilton fans huh?

Do I think Nico has more brain power or is more cerebral than Lewis?Of course!You don't get called to engineering school or pick many languages if you aren't a sharp cookie.Its a fact that Nico is a sharp guy,probably sharper than Lewis.Get over it,trying to justify it any other way makes it look foolish.

On the other hand,if I was a team principal,I would choose Hamilton's intuitive driving any day  over Nico's cerebral approach.Why?Because Hamilton's style of driving cannot be taught,even to any degree.Its God given .Nico's approach can more or less be taught to some degree.There are a lot of clever people in F1 and a team like Mercedes has the resources to help Hamilton cover that part.

I read somewhere that a senior engineer working with Lewis said he is at his best when he gives feedback on his car,in his own language,and let the engineers set it up for him,instead of him trying to influence the direction of set up in his car.If that works for him,bloody well go for it!In any case,what are the engineers there for if they aren't there to interpret the technicalities of set up right?

I honestly don't understand why his fans are hung up on this cerebral thing.

 

Well it's as much a case of Rosberg advocates being hung up on the cerebral thing, doncha think?  Hamilton fans are quite entitled to ask 'where's the evidence?'  

 

Sure Nico is more academic, but that's not the whole compass of intelligence is it? In terms of being an effective F1 racing driver does it actually show as a Nico advantage?  I don't think so.  Where would we expect to see it?  Setup? Racecraft? Wheel-to-wheel?

 

Some snippets we have seen are Lewis outguessing Nico with DRS at Sepang last year, analysing Nico's telemetry from Sepang FP this year to find time, being copied from his Sepang race (yes I am shamelessly having it both ways almost like a Nico advocate )  and cleverly outmanouevring him in the Bahrain race, with for example the undercuts and the cunning little baulking dink after T1 that killed Nico's momentum to defend 3 corners down the track.  Also I notice Lewis even sits a bit more cerebrally (higher)  .

 

So when people sit on TV spouting cliches that are so against the evidence, they can expect to take a bit of stick on here.  It's quite natural, and nothing to get wound up about  .   

[Claudius]

Where were we?

 

Oh yeah, Hamilton's the village idiot and Nico's a brain surgeon.

 

 

And remember Nico knows 7 languages so he must be a genius.

[F1Newbie]

Lewis doesn't speak different languages, misspelled many words all the time or may not even know in which continent Russia is but that doesn't mean he doesn't have technical knowledge. He may not be the most versatile guy in the world but he sure knows his job very well. He's educated to be a F1 driver. People seems to forget he was part of McLaren driver development program, he does have technical knowledge probably more than Rosberg. Is Rosberg more methodological than Lewis? Certainly! That doesn't mean he knows more than him in term of how to set up car, etc...

When F1 journalists need to justify their lies, it's always an unnamed senior who told them. I bet it's the same senior who told them Lewis wouldn't be able to manage his fuel this new era. Personally, I pay no attention to hearsay.

Edited by F1Newbie, 10 April 2014 - 09:21.

[sopa]

The most hotly-contested team-mate topic this year, because it is the battle for the championship. During the season we are going to see the emergence of more interesting arguments in addition to "5 spoken languages".

[Ellios]

Where were we?

 

Oh yeah, Hamilton's the village idiot and Nico's a brain surgeon.

 

[stanga]

Is Devil Vettel in disguise? 

[1Devil1]

Is Devil Vettel in disguise? 

Not the first time I laughed about you, but this time it was about, you were actually funny

Edited by 1Devil1, 10 April 2014 - 09:34.

[Bumblebee]

maybe the joke will stop when people stop bringing the same drivel that Rosberg has more technical knowledge than Lewis based on his grade at school.

 

If I remember it correctly, Nico scored very high on his technical aptitude at Williams, and most likely will have done well with his Abitur examinations. 

It it worth pointing out that Nico would have studied either privately or at the Monaco equivalent of a Gymnasium rather than a Hochshule or Realschule, which is a much more focused education and seen as a mark of prestige to have completed this. In modern times, it is being used as a segregation technique used to bolster the middle and upper classes while keeping the immigrant and lower classes into a "Sackgasse" future. In England, I believe this two-tier school system has been largely disbanded in favor of universal secondary education.

So you cannot really compare the fact that Nico shows a higher technical aptitude based on a test or that he may have been offered a place at University - his whole secondary education was primed towards this as a "fallback" position and prepared him adequately given the focused nature of his studies. Compare this to Hamilton who may not have had the benefit of such an education. When we say "aptitude" we often mean "somebody who has had enough practice to make something seem second nature".

I do not think these arguments on intelligence based on one very small metric, make a very good case for or against any single driver. Nico may be able to write down the equation for optimum dampfer settings versus spring rate, but does this make him a better driver? Does it really give him an very big edge in terms of driving the car? In terms of judging correct setup? I would say that no it does not, when based on last years performances. 

Edited by Bumblebee, 10 April 2014 - 09:56.

[stanga]

Not the first time I laughed about you, but this time it was about, you were actually funny

 

You are welcome.

[P123]

This sequel sucks.  It's exactly the same as the original!

[meddo]

It was not about you, but when a thread is all about joking about celeberal thing - it's get exhausting. You were not the first bright man to come up with this 'top' joke. Read the last pages, and you will see it

I thought  that the village idiot part was actually pretty funny. 

[RubalSher]

I thought  that the village idiot part was actually pretty funny. 

 

+1

[bauss]

I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if it was Nico with the last two races LH had.

 

One a 'cerebral' display of racing speed and clear grasp of what is required in the new formula with his first race distance that caught his teammate by surprise.

 

The other, a display of superior wheel to wheel prowess.

 

LH would have been buried with the 'cerebral' thing. 

[Claudius]

I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if it was Nico with the last two races LH had.

 

One a 'cerebral' display of racing speed and clear grasp of what is required in the new formula with his first race distance that caught his teammate by surprise.

 

The other, a display of superior wheel to wheel prowess.

 

LH would have been buried with the 'cerebral' thing. 

 

Well said!

Lewis is beating the second "cerebral" teammate so far. First Jenson and now Nico.

That must mean that Lewis is much more "cerebral" than he gets credit for.

 

But I guess it's easier with stereotypes for some, unfortunately.

[Retrofly]

As far as I'm concerned all this talk about each others "mental ability" has as much bearing on the driving and results as what colour each drivers socks are.

 

"Nico's are blue, that will make him win."

 

"No way, Ham's are red. Don't you know red is faster!"

[Zoetrope]

I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if it was Nico with the last two races LH had.

 

One a 'cerebral' display of racing speed and clear grasp of what is required in the new formula with his first race distance that caught his teammate by surprise.

 

The other, a display of superior wheel to wheel prowess.

 

LH would have been buried with the 'cerebral' thing. 

I know you are speculating, but I can't see that ever happening with Rosberg thou. He wouldn't hold that position.

Anyway, at the same time there would be also quite a few legitimate excuses for Lewis for Malaysia - such as that he never had a race sim before. And then in Bahrain we would be like "you see, after he completed his first race sim he understood better what is required for next race".

It's interesting how excuses can go either way. Now there is a discussion about broken chassis in Kimi vs Fernando thread, just like we had one last year around India. Sometimes we just don't have enough data to measure the how some of the issues a driver has to go though a weekend can impact his result. It's best to take a conservative approach for both sides.

[bub]

I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if it was Nico with the last two races LH had.

 

One a 'cerebral' display of racing speed and clear grasp of what is required in the new formula with his first race distance that caught his teammate by surprise.

 

The other, a display of superior wheel to wheel prowess.

 

LH would have been buried with the 'cerebral' thing. 

 

There's still time.

[paipa]

Anyway, at the same time there would be also quite a few legitimate excuses for Lewis for Malaysia - such as that he never had a race sim before. And then in Bahrain we would be like "you see, after he completed his first race sim he understood better what is required for next race".

It's interesting how excuses can go either way.

I think you misunderstood bauss' musings there. He said imagine Lewis completing two race sims and an extra race compared to Rosberg and losing like that.

[hollowstar]

The thing is, prior to Lewis' arrival, Nico has beaten Schumacher for 3 consecutive years.  Over that period, never even once did anyone mention the reason for that was Nico being smarter than Michael. People were saying "Nico is just faster; better driver than I thought" or "Schumi is not the driver he once was, he lost some speed". But nobody ever said "Well, Nico is definitely smarter than Schumacher". 

 

Did Schumacher know 5 (or 7?) languages like Nico? I don't think so. Was he accepted to I don't know which engineering university? I don't think so either. 

 

So if it wasn't brought up against Schumacher over 3 years, there is no reason for that "smarter" argument to be brought up against Lewis. 

 

I'm pretty sure that if Lewis had replaced Nico at Mercedes, he too would have beaten Schumi by a fair margin.  Would that have allowed me to say Lewis is smarter than Schumi? No. 

[sennafan24]

The intelligence debate is pretty useless if you ask me. Lewis has shown awareness and discipline in recent races. He is clearly not a dummy, and neither is Nico.

 

I really do not think much needs to be said on the matter. There are myths flying around at the moment in relation to Lewis vs Nico, where there is little to no evidence to support them. These are two that have left me scratching my head.

 

1. Nico is an average driver. 

 

Not true - Nico has a stronger qualifying record against Lewis than Button and Heikki. In races finished ahead in a two car finish, Nico has a higher percentage in relation to Lewis than both Button and Heikki achieved in their time in equal machinery to Lewis. If Nico is average, than Button is below average (and I 100% do not think that)

 

2. Lewis is a car killer, and is not kind to the car

 

Not true - Lewis experienced zero mechanical DNF's in 2013, and the one he had in Australia was not due to strain he put on the car. He did not complete one lap in the race.

 

I could go on.

 

I think there is a tendency for critics and fans to bash the opposing driver (or both at the same time), and use any theory possible in the process. Evidence is needed at times people!

Edited by sennafan24, 10 April 2014 - 14:35.

[Nemo1965]

The intelligence debate is pretty useless if you ask me. Lewis has shown awareness and discipline in recent races. He is clearly not a dummy, and neither is Nico.

 

I really do not think much needs to be said on the matter. There are myths flying around at the moment in relation to Lewis vs Nico, where there is little to no evidence to support them. These are two that have left me scratching my head.

 

1. Nico is an average driver. 

 

Not true - Nico has a stronger qualifying record against Lewis than Button and Heikki. In races finished ahead in a two car finish, Nico has a higher percentage in relation to Lewis than both Button and Heikki achieved in their time in equal machinery to Lewis. If Nico is average, than Button is below average (and I 100% do not think that)

 

2. Lewis is a car killer, and is not kind to the car

 

Not true - Lewis experienced zero mechanical DNF's in 2013, and the one he had in Australia was not due to strain he put on the car. He did not complete one lap in the race.

 

I could go on.

 

I think there is a tendency for critics and fans to bash the opposing driver (or both at the same time), and use any theory possible in the process. Evidence is needed at times people!

 

Excellent post. Someone commented on the other thread: 'I think Rosberg is an excellent driver, I just think Hamilton is better.'

 

That's the spirit!

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 April 2014 - 14:48.

[Retrofly]

Yeah, we really know its all about socks!

[Nemo1965]

Yeah, we really know its all about socks!

[sennafan24]

Check his above post mate 

[Nemo1965]

Oooh...

 

Sorry!

 

On another note: I just realised that Hamilton has pushed Alonso out of my personal top 2. At the beginning of the 2013 I thought: 'Vettel and Alonso are the best. Then, very close: Hamilton, Rosberg, Button. Then, again close, Raikkonen, Webber, Grosjean.'

 

Now it's more: Vettel and Hamilton. Very close: Rosberg, Button, Ricciardo (!). Then Alonso, Raikkonen.

 

Why? Hamilton has grown. Rosberg is about as good as I thought, ditto Button. Ricciardo is much better than I thought. Alonso... I don't think he is that good anymore. To speak with Lenn Grossman: 'A white dwarf headed for a black hole. That's physics. It's inevitable.'

 

I am curious how I think after this year.

[sennafan24]

 

On another note: I just realised that Hamilton has pushed Alonso out of my personal top 2. At the beginning of the 2013 I thought: 'Vettel and Alonso are the best. Then, very close: Hamilton, Rosberg, Button. Then, again close, Raikkonen, Webber, Grosjean.'

We can not discuss this here, but I think in regards to Alonso, you are being a tad harsh. I see Lewis and Nico as top drivers. At the moment give Lewis a slight edge over Nico.

 

Nico is actually on a island on his own in my rankings, above Button, D.R and Kimi, but below Lewis, Alonso and Seb. All of it is pending and ongoing though, I could change my mind several times as new information/results come our way. It is subjective as well, with the different machinery the drivers all use.

Edited by sennafan24, 10 April 2014 - 15:09.

[SophieB]

Do not go there, friends.

[Nemo1965]

Do not go there, friends.

 

I am sorry, I was not turning this into a drivers thread the way you might think. I just wanted to comment that Rosberg and Hamilton in one team is almost ideal, battle wise. And perhaps after this year we are going to comment: it WAS the ideal driving pairing. For who knows...

 

Again, my prediction is: if Mercedes stays dominant, Hamilton will edge out Rosberg. If halfway the season other teams are going to interfere, my nod goes to Nico...

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 April 2014 - 15:32.

[f1supreme]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/26913394

[SophieB]

To address the intelligence thing, while it keeps being discussed in the press as a potential factor in the battle, I don't think it would be reasonable to forbid people responding to it. However, I would ask that you do give a bit of thought to whether what you are about to say already been said a bunch of times. Because, yes, it gets old seeing the thread go round in circles and the same gags. (Some of which I think would be considered trolling by some if they were made in the other direction.) So, please, just use your judgement a bit.

Having said all that, please do report the thread or posts if you think it's going off course. I like the drivers and a lot of the thread regulars so I am often not far away but I am not here all the time, and when I am, I don't always have time to take action. You will get quicker responses using report because then the mod team as a whole sees it.

[f1supreme]

I am sorry, I was not turning this into a drivers thread the way you might think. I just wanted to comment that Rosberg and Hamilton in one team is almost ideal, battle wise. And perhaps after this year we are going to comment: it WAS the ideal driving pairing. For who knows...

 

Again, my prediction is: if Mercedes stays dominant, Hamilton will edge out Rosberg. If halfway the season other teams are going to interfere, my nod goes to Nico...

but why...i mean if you think lewis will gain more points than nico if noone interfere's,why will that change if other drivers do interfere.also before bahrain didnt nico get 2 3rd places in quali,so surely if other drivers do interfere,nico will be more likely to lose out,by losing out in quali.

[f1supreme]

if lewis wins in china too,i dont think it'll be as close as some claim.if nico wins,i'll change my mind.but from what ive seen so far,lewis looks more confident and happier,plus he's driving better than last season.nico looks abit ruffled atm.

[Nemo1965]

but why...i mean if you think lewis will gain more points than nico if noone interfere's,why will that change if other drivers do interfere.also before bahrain didnt nico get 2 3rd places in quali,so surely if other drivers do interfere,nico will be more likely to lose out,by losing out in quali.

 

I already explained my opinion on the other thread, but because this is new.... First of all: I think Lewis has matured, so perhaps my impression of him is not longer correct. In the past, Hamilton just had some straight boneheaded moves in races, sometimes - ahem - just not very intelligent moves in races. In the past Hamilton more often than Alonso or Rosberg, just picked a fight on track with the wrong driver. But perhaps that has changed also. And perhaps Nico will also change... for the worse!

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 April 2014 - 17:12.

[hollowstar]

I already explained my opinion on the other thread, but because this is new. First of all: I think Lewis has matured, so perhaps my impression of him is not longer correct. In the past, Hamilton just had some straight boneheaded moves in races, sometimes - ahem - just not very intelligent moves in races. In the past Hamilton more often than Alonso or Rosberg, just picked a fight on track with the wrong driver. But perhaps that has changed also. And perhaps Nico will also change... for the worse!

 

I think the main question about your previous post was: why would you favor Hamilton if Merc remain dominant, but Rosberg if some other teams come back closer?  

 

If you consider that Hamilton might win the duel, even by a small margin, then having other teams getting closer (possibly qualifying and finishing between Hamilton and Rosberg) should help Hamilton further?   

[Nemo1965]

I think the main question about your previous post was: why would you favor Hamilton if Merc remain dominant, but Rosberg if some other teams come back closer?  

 

If you consider that Hamilton might win the duel, even by a small margin, then having other teams getting closer (possibly qualifying and finishing between Hamilton and Rosberg) should help Hamilton further?   

 

I think that if Mercedes stays dominant, and far ahead of the field, Hamilton will always be a little more aggressive than Rosberg. That means: if they crash, they probably won't be able to finish the race, both of them. If they won't crash, 6 out of 10 times (a small majority) Hamilton will win the race. I think.

 

If other teams intervene, in the way that after a pitstop Mercedes-drivers end up behind a driver that is slower but is postponing his stop, and if Hamilton has not matured as much I perhaps I think he has, and if Rosberg is not stressed out more by the fact that he has the chance to win the WC, I think the change is bigger that Hamilton will have compromising clashes with other drivers than Rosberg. The points differences are so great today, that one non-finish for a Mercedes-car almost immediately means a 25 point extra deficit.

 

Furthermore, I have the impression that Hamilton - being the fiery driver that he is, and that's why his fans love him - is more agressive in traffic and hence harder on his tyres. Yes, he did fine in Bahrain, but what if the race had been during the day?

 

Again, my opinion is based on the last seven years or so. It could be that Hamilton has changed totally. It could happen. He is almost thirty. Perhaps he is like Jody Scheckter, who was the wild man of F1 (some other drivers called him, behind his back, 'The Ape',) and then, late seventies, matured into perhaps the smartest driver in F1 after Niki Lauda...

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 April 2014 - 17:25.

[Bartonz20let]

I think the main question about your previous post was: why would you favor Hamilton if Merc remain dominant, but Rosberg if some other teams come back closer?

If you consider that Hamilton might win the duel, even by a small margin, then having other teams getting closer (possibly qualifying and finishing between Hamilton and Rosberg) should help Hamilton further?

That's how I see it, if Lewis is taking poles/leading races while other teams are closing in, it's Nico that will drop points first because he will be the first to be attacked.

I think what is being said here is if Lewis is under attack he's more likely to DNF, this giving Nico the advantage.

As it stands, I can't see it being a problem.

[study]

Is China a make or break race for Rosberg?

I know he would still be leading but to be 3 - 0 down on a head yo head contest would be quite a blow to his confidence and get him thinking what will he have to do to beat Lewis, hopefully no mechicanical breakdowns

[Nemo1965]

That's how I see it, if Lewis is taking poles/leading races while other teams are closing in, it's Nico that will drop points first because he will be the first to be attacked.

I think what is being said here is if Lewis is under attack he's more likely to DNF, this giving Nico the advantage.

As it stands, I can't see it being a problem.

 

I don't think that Mercedes cars will be attacked from behind, the difference is too great. The only thing I can see happening is some teams getting in the way by using another tyre-strategy, or qualifications that run strangely because of rain or something. I don't see that problem arising as well. But hey, you never know. Look at Lotus in 1978. Everyone thinks they swept through that year, but the truth is their hegemony was over after Sweden... even without the Brabham-fan car.

[lewislorenzo]

First jenson was prost and now it is nico I wonder if Maldonado was hamiltons team mate would he be likened to prost too...

[Zoetrope]

First jenson was prost and now it is nico I wonder if Maldonado was hamiltons team mate would he be likened to prost too...

As much as I also don't put much attention to these popular beliefs on drivers, you have to acknowledge there is always a grain of truth in them. Nobody was calling Kovalainen a Prost.

[Atreiu]

Nico has the championship lead thanks in large part to Hamilton's DNF in Australia. But Hamilton has won twice, including a race which seemed to have fell on Nico's laps thanks to the SC. So Hamilton has the initiative but Nico has been competitive and it seems the WDC will be decided between them.

 

And somewhere between 2013 and 2014 Rosberg became a technical genius, but I have yet seen results to prove it.

 

That's more or less where tings were.

 

I still maintain my initial judgement. Rosberg is fast and capable and can be counted on extracting the cars potential. But he is not the pilot to somehow defeat the odds and score a terrific result which wasn't initially expected. Case in point, Bahrain. He should have won it. Hamilton is faster and only has to escape his moody and poor weekends to win a lot of races and be the lead driver.

Edited by Atreiu, 10 April 2014 - 17:54.

[Zava]

Is China a make or break race for Rosberg?

I know he would still be leading but to be 3 - 0 down on a head yo head contest would be quite a blow to his confidence and get him thinking what will he have to do to beat Lewis, hopefully no mechicanical breakdowns

well, he came back strong in the latter part of 2013 after being soundly beaten by Hamilton in the middle of the year, so I don't really fear for him in that regard.

[femi]

Duel between teams it has become:

http://www.wheels24....rivers-20140410

[hollowstar]

well, he came back strong in the latter part of 2013 after being soundly beaten by Hamilton in the middle of the year, so I don't really fear for him in that regard.

 

Thanks in part, to Lewis' broken chassis. And most importantly, to the fact that the car was built for Rosberg and Schumi, not for Lewis.  This year, Lewis feels comfortable in the car. 

 

Nico might very well end up winning the championship, on merit or due to reliability/luck. But he will have to fight for it.   Lewis will be harder to beat than last year. 

[ForzaGTR]

This debate over the intelligence of both drivers is laughably childish.

 

Journalists must have a lot of time on their hands to write such "intelligent articles"...

[P123]

Is China a make or break race for Rosberg?

I know he would still be leading but to be 3 - 0 down on a head yo head contest would be quite a blow to his confidence and get him thinking what will he have to do to beat Lewis, hopefully no mechicanical breakdowns

No, not by a long way. It's only race 4, with 15 more after that. I'd be more worried about another DNF for Hamilton and a 'free' 25 points for NR frankly. I really don't see Rosberg as the type who would lack confidence. He's fairly resilient mentally.