113 replies to this topic

[tomisumi]

Jonathan Noble came up with an idea how to make race weekends more exciting...

 

Not usual qualification, but qualification race - 22 drivers, 22 laps and at the end of each lap the man on the back would be eliminated - the last man standing would take pole position. Starting grid of this Q race would be determined by championship positions, but in reverse order, with fastest drivers starting from back of the grid. (hope I explained it properly, my english skill isn´t the best)

 

Thought?

[DanardiF1]

A Grand Prix is one race. Splitting a Grand Prix weekend into other races fundamentally dilutes the concept.

[ToniF1]

Nothing new, that is already used( or in some way) in other series( GP2)

 

F-1 is a cirkus but not that big...that is not F1...

[P123]

What happens if the qualifying race is routinely more interesting/ exciting than the actual GP? Then surely people stop watching on Sundays. Having two races over two different days may not be a concept that the casual viewers (the majority) buy in to (yes, I know it's done in GP2, but how many of Joe Public actually pay attention to that?), especially if one is non-points.  The FIA would also have to do away with or lessen the fairly restrictive allowances on PUs and gearboxes for the year.

 

I can imagine there would be lots of cries for penalties as drivers scrambled to avoid elimination with a few wild moves.

[seabass8]

In Monaco, the championship leaders would be the first ones out. Then start first?

[RealRacing]

Or they could just have a musical-chair contest...

 

But seriously, having the fastest guy come from behind is artificial "racing" anyway. Real racing, or, best racing, happens when two drivers under similar conditions meet at the track to fight for position. Qualifying with no limitations was the best type and was considered a separate event to the race itself, more so than it is now. It's not like they don't know what to do, both for improving races and qualy, it's that they won't or can't because others won't...

[flymo]

It would be tremendous fun to watch, but there are too many problems, such as high attrition due to frantic pass attempts  and increased race miles,

 

Also, I think it would take more than 22 laps for many passes to happen. Keep in mind that each 'faster' driver has to make a pass on the driver only one place behind him, so the pace differentials through the field are small.  In reality, I think the end result would be very little different from a reverse grid.

 

Creative idea though.

 

I don't think that the current run ordering concept is really that bad.  There are many sports where lower-ranked competitors have to 'beat the champ' in order to win.

[seahawk]

If I want to watch a show, I could watch wrestling.

[HeadFirst]

Nonsense. This is supposed to be sport, not a contrived "reality" experience. 

[tomisumi]

Hm, yes, F1 is about one race on Sunday and I can´t see any reasons why change it...but, still better idea than double points

[Astro]

But what if, say, the last two cars in qualifying where not THAT good to overtake the next ones in line? Then, the favorites will start on the back of the grid in race day. Chance will play too much of a role (messy starts, rookies at front)... Nah, it would look like Lottery F1.

[Fastcake]

I doubt Jonathan Noble came up with that idea, people have been talking about reverse grids for years. Thankfully, it has only ever remained an idea.

[krobinson]

An idea so stupid that its creator deserves to get banned from ever being allowed in public again.

[DanardiF1]

Also, reverse grid qualifying if based on times (because TV would still demand a qualifying on Saturday) is so open to abuse it would be unwatchable.

 

If it's a qualifying race, which is then the Grand Prix? The qualifying race might end up much better than the main race, so which then do the audience consider the main event? It works for GP2 because their viewing figures are much lower and there is not the demand for one standalone race, so two races (the Feature Race still having it's grid decided by normal qualifying) works for them. The fans who are the circuit for the weekend get to see more support races and more action other than the main event.

[Atreiu]

It's a horrible idea. I tweeted him about it actually.

 

It would be easier and much more straightforward if they simply abolished qualifying and had the grid in reverse WDC order.

[tomisumi]

 

Will Buxton ‏@willbuxton 10. 4.

.@NobleF1 Great for TV. Great for fans. Great for designers. Onus back on overtaking. Maintains purity. Drivers would love it. It's win win.

[AVA1]

Wouldn't the drivers qualify badly on purpose?

[Wlleiotl]

an interesting original idea, wouldnt happen in f1, but i would watch any formula with interest that did decide to do this

[RubalSher]

It's a horrible idea. I tweeted him about it actually.

 

It would be easier and much more straightforward if they simply abolished qualifying and had the grid in reverse WDC order.

 

I like the idea of getting rid of qualy and having the grid in reverse order of WDC. So many people in this thread saying any such solution is contrived and not racing. Fair enough. But you will find the same set of people bemoaning the Malayisan GP this year coz it was boring.

 

You set up the grid based on fastest cars first and you have a race where the fastest cars stay ahead with a procession for the whole race distance. And then you moan about it.

 

The only so called "exciting" races in recent years have almost always been the result of safety cars or unpredictable weather... So much so, that people have even jested about having water sprinklers go off during races at random times to "spice" things up.

 

Bernie tried to "spice" up the races by introducing Pireliis and DRS and now the double points race.

 

I would say it would be a whole lot better if you just got rid of qualy and reversed the grid for the race based on WDC standings and by giving the drivers enough fuel and durable tyres to go racing.

 

And yes, I know some will jump here with safety concerns but this is racing and if a car is good enough to be on the F1 track, it is good enough to race in any position, even at the front of the grid and even if it is slower than the rest.

[4MEN]

If there's a reason I don't think the Bahrein race was so great as people claim it's because most of the overtakes were done thanks to DRS. No need for MORE artificiality.

[Gorma]

Wouldn't the drivers qualify badly on purpose?

and start last?

[undersquare]

I would watch.  I bet the critics would too 

[johnmhinds]

Doesn't sound like some people read the first post and they just replied based on the thread title so i'm going to quote it for the lazy guys to read...

 

Jonathan Noble came up with an idea how to make race weekends more exciting...

 

Not usual qualification, but qualification race - 22 drivers, 22 laps and at the end of each lap the man on the back would be eliminated - the last man standing would take pole position. Starting grid of this Q race would be determined by championship positions, but in reverse order, with fastest drivers starting from back of the grid. (hope I explained it properly, my english skill isn´t the best)

 

Thought?

 

Sounds like a fun idea, but one that is full of potential holes.

 

What happens when/if someone crashes and the safety car comes out?

[Szoelloe]

Very bad idea.

[tomisumi]

ofc, there are many things which would need to be sort out...in case of SC, maybe add as many laps as SC required?

[Option1]

It's a fantastic idea!  As long as they add a section where the drivers must also assemble a complete IKEA lounge room suite, and then continue for two laps on a bicycle where the seat has been removed, followed by a quick round of burst the balloon.  Oh and I'm sure for the last race they could add a double camel rodeo and perhaps a quick pinata contest. 

 

Yep, that'll do it.  Greaatttttt idea.

 

Neil

[johnmhinds]

ofc, there are many things which would need to be sort out...in case of SC, maybe add as many laps as SC required?

 

But what would you do with fuel levels? The teams would leave the pits with 22-3 laps of fuel, and then the safety car would add 3-5 laps onto the race for every big crash...

 

Like I said it sounds like a fun show (maybe not in the spirit of F1 but still fun) but it doesn't really sound like it would work that well in practice.

Edited by johnmhinds, 11 April 2014 - 16:47.

[Wlleiotl]

red flag in a safety car situation

[Anja]

It sounds like something taken from a videogame. Not a fan of such ideas.

[johnmhinds]

red flag in a safety car situation

 

Still going to end up with fuel/tyre issues if you do that, and you'd need another warm up lap when restarting to get the tyres back up to temperature.

[Disgrace]

red flag in a safety car situation

 

Indeed, otherwise a safety car start would be farcical.

[purplehaireddolphin]

There's nothing wrong with qualifying the way it is, but I do like the idea. However I think it would need to be 44 laps and have a driver eliminated every 2 laps. I'm all for it, though it'd never happen 

[byrkus]

In that case, a qualifying race in Belgium is just as long as a REAL race.

[Szoelloe]

It's a fantastic idea!  As long as they add a section where the drivers must also assemble a complete IKEA lounge room suite, and then continue for two laps on a bicycle where the seat has been removed, followed by a quick round of burst the balloon.  Oh and I'm sure for the last race they could add a double camel rodeo and perhaps a quick pinata contest. 

 

Yep, that'll do it.  Greaatttttt idea.

 

Neil

 

This.

 

It's a farce. There is nothing wrong with qualification as it is, aside from the freak parc fermé rules. It  is a truly stupid idea. Sounds like something taken out of the agenda of a pharma company convergence weekend.

Edited by Szoelloe, 11 April 2014 - 17:21.

[purplehaireddolphin]

In that case, a qualifying race in Belgium is just as long as a REAL race.

ah, yes.............erm......................

 

Belgium could be special half distance race   

[JHSingo]

No.

 

I don't see why every race has to be exciting. No sport in the world has consistently exciting events, week in, week out. Not football, not rugby, not cricket, tennis or anything else.

 

Races that are as exciting as Bahrain 2014 stick out because they are rare. I know that sounds pretty terrible, but put it this way. If every race has tonnes of overtaking etc, how do you determine whether it was a classic?

 

I probably haven't written that very well, but I personally don't mind having the occasional processional race. Because it makes the good races even more enjoyable.

[johnmhinds]

No.

 

I don't see why every race has to be exciting. No sport in the world has consistently exciting events, week in, week out. Not football, not rugby, not cricket, tennis or anything else.

 

Races that are as exciting as Bahrain 2014 stick out because they are rare. I know that sounds pretty terrible, but put it this way. If every race has tonnes of overtaking etc, how do you determine whether it was a classic?

 

I probably haven't written that very well, but I personally don't mind having the occasional processional race. Because it makes the good races even more enjoyable.

 

There is a clear difference between having every race being a classic and every race being at least somewhat enjoyable to watch.

 

While something like Football has 0-0 results there is normally something to watch for that 90minutes most if not all of the time.

 

Recently In F1 we have had far too many races with 2 hours of lights to flag procession with almost no TV coverage of the leaders because they are so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

[RubalSher]

No.

 

I don't see why every race has to be exciting. No sport in the world has consistently exciting events, week in, week out. Not football, not rugby, not cricket, tennis or anything else.

 

Races that are as exciting as Bahrain 2014 stick out because they are rare. I know that sounds pretty terrible, but put it this way. If every race has tonnes of overtaking etc, how do you determine whether it was a classic?

 

I probably haven't written that very well, but I personally don't mind having the occasional processional race. Because it makes the good races even more enjoyable.

 

Australia and Malaysia this year were processional and Bahrain would have been too except for the SC. Every race pretty much is processional unless you throw in weather or the SC. When was the last time you had a "classic" in dry weather without SC?

 

Bernie has thrown in tyres for the last few years now to generate fake excitement when cars get passed on older tyres. So is DRS. Drivers have to conserve fuel and tyres and drive at maybe 80% of their potential, so how in God's Green world Bernie's F1 world are you gonna get classics?

[zepunishment]

Hiow about this - each F1 team is teamed up with a GP2 team. Qualifying is run as normal in GP2 cars by F1 drivers. 

[Szoelloe]

Australia and Malaysia this year were processional and Bahrain would have been too except for the SC. Every race pretty much is processional unless you throw in weather or the SC. When was the last time you had a "classic" in dry weather without SC?

 

Bernie has thrown in tyres for the last few years now to generate fake excitement when cars get passed on older tyres. So is DRS. Drivers have to conserve fuel and tyres and drive at maybe 80% of their potential, so how in God's Green world Bernie's F1 world are you gonna get classics?

 

So, after two question marks, are you pro, or con? 

[RubalSher]

So, after two question marks, are you pro, or con? 

 

I am all for reverse grids based on WDC order. Scrap qualy. Give the drivers enough fuel and durable tyres and get rid of unnecessary gimmicks like DRS, and voila we have a classic on hand every race. Yes it is contrived, but so are a dozen things in F1 right now that can be thrown out for one easy simple solution.

 

Would love to see Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, etc charge from the back to the front every race.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What's wrong with qualifying as it is now?

[RubalSher]

What's wrong with qualifying as it is now?

 

Qualifying is great, and to be honest more exciting than the race most of the times. And therein lies the point, the races have become boring and processional with bullet proof reliability, fixed fuel, very little operating window on the tyres taking away strategy. Drivers driving to a delta, maintaining position and setting up snooze fests for viewers.

[Zoetrope]

Nowadays there might be a faster car stuck in traffic, because it lacks top speed/acceleration out of corner. Assuming with the new ruleset the better car you have, the more you have to overtake and therefore the teams would focus on overtaking aspect of the cars then. And then above scenario (being stuck behind slower car) would happen less often. So the first half of the race would be overtaking chaos (Marrusias would be dead last within 5-7 laps, I remember Chilton starting 16th in Belgium last year and was 22nd just after one lap) and once grid is reversed back to normal, then we have a procession again.

[RubalSher]

Nowadays there might be a faster car stuck in traffic, because it lacks top speed/acceleration out of corner. Assuming with the new ruleset the better car you have, the more you have to overtake and therefore the teams would focus on overtaking aspect of the cars then. And then above scenario (being stuck behind slower car) would happen less often. So the first half of the race would be overtaking chaos (Marrusias would be dead last within 5-7 laps, I remember Chilton starting 16th in Belgium last year and was 22nd just after one lap) and once grid is reversed back to normal, then we have a procession again.

 

I doubt the entire grid will get passed in 5-7 laps. Yes the Marussias and the Caterhams might, but there is a whole bunch of mid-field cars out at the front and the WDC leaders will have a challenge every race to get through as many of them as they can.

[Zoetrope]

I doubt the entire grid will get passed in 5-7 laps. Yes the Marussias and the Caterhams might, but there is a whole bunch of mid-field cars out at the front and the WDC leaders will have a challenge every race to get through as many of them as they can.

My points it that there would be no need for "fastest" cars anymore. The best cars would be now the best overtakers, that can overtake and defend from behind.

If you reverse grid with 2014 cars then yes, it would be quite a challenge for a McLaren to make a pass even on Sauber or Torro Rosso. But if the whole car design revolves around overtaking, then you forsake ultimate pace for overtaking capabilities and best cars would have it easier than they do now.

[RubalSher]

My points it that there would be no need for "fastest" cars anymore. The best cars would be now the best overtakers, that can overtake and defend from behind.

If you reverse grid with 2014 cars then yes, it would be quite a challenge for a McLaren to make a pass even on Sauber or Torro Rosso. But if the whole car design revolves around overtaking, then you forsake ultimate pace for overtaking capabilities and best cars would have it easier than they do now.

 

Can you please elaborate on what you mean?

[NotAPineapple]

I hate traditional reverse grid ideas because they are typically easily tampered with and in the end are terribly contrived.

 

But, I like the idea. such a simple simple formula which rewards racecraft on saturday and the fastest overall team/driver/car package on sunday. The fact that the initial grid is based on championship position means that sanbagging will never give you an advantage.

 

Red flags instead of a safety car would take care of any fuel issues.

 

Its almost impossible to f--k the system too. The only way to come out on top is to race balls out.

[Szoelloe]

I am all for reverse grids based on WDC order. Scrap qualy. Give the drivers enough fuel and durable tyres and get rid of unnecessary gimmicks like DRS, and voila we have a classic on hand every race. Yes it is contrived, but so are a dozen things in F1 right now that can be thrown out for one easy simple solution.

 

Would love to see Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, etc charge from the back to the front every race.

 

Reverse grids are fake. Adding ballast is fake too.

[NotAPineapple]

Nowadays there might be a faster car stuck in traffic, because it lacks top speed/acceleration out of corner. Assuming with the new ruleset the better car you have, the more you have to overtake and therefore the teams would focus on overtaking aspect of the cars then. And then above scenario (being stuck behind slower car) would happen less often. So the first half of the race would be overtaking chaos (Marrusias would be dead last within 5-7 laps, I remember Chilton starting 16th in Belgium last year and was 22nd just after one lap) and once grid is reversed back to normal, then we have a procession again.

 

You are forgetting that they need to do a normal race as usual on Sunday... so you still need a car with outright pace.