11 replies to this topic

[antonvrs]

Hello all-

Maybe this should go in the Technical forum but it is definitely historical so I'll start here.

Can anyone tell me what was the first "production car" (at least 100 examples produced) to have truly independent rear suspension? Not swing axles, not de Dion but truly independent.

For that matter, the first racing car with the above?

I'm aware of the Cornelian, a one-off that appeared at Indianapolis in the Twenties but I can't think of anything earlier.

Anton

[GMACKIE]

Anton, I am wondering what your reasons are for excluding swing-axles? They are "truly independent", surely.

[plannerpower]

The Tropfenwagen (just/almost) meets the 100-made requirement;

 

http://en.wikipedia....er_Tropfenwagen

 

Swing-axles but certainly independent;

 

http://en.wikipedia....dent_suspension

Edited by plannerpower, 14 April 2014 - 03:22.

[antonvrs]

I was thinking more along the lines of hub carriers, stub axles and separate half shafts as in what I think of as "modern" racing and GT cars where the tires remain more perpendicular to the ground.

[GMACKIE]

There's a chap not far from my place who has a 1924 Sizaire Freres.....It has independent suspension on all four wheels.

[Allan Lupton]

There's a chap not far from my place who has a 1924 Sizaire Freres.....It has independent suspension on all four wheels.

Yes I think that's the car Antonvrs wants, and you could put forward a date of 1922 for the design.

It had independent suspension using transverse leaf springs as the lower link and wishbones for the upper and even had an adjustable tracking links on the rear.

[GMACKIE]

The suspension can be seen [just] in this photo. Quite advanced for its time.

 

[ray b]

what about the old chain drive cars

any of them independent front and rear ?

[Nick Savage]

Lancia Aprilia ?  22,000 made.

Nick

[Allan Lupton]

what about the old chain drive cars
any of them independent front and rear ?

Old chain drive cars used a dead axle beam. Post WW II some microcars used a chain in trailing arm system.
 

Lancia Aprilia ?  22,000 made.
Nick

Yes, but some 15 years after the Sizaire.

[antonvrs]

I want to thank you all for improving my knowledge of the history of independent rear suspension.

I specialise in the restoration of Fiat and SIATA V8 cars, which have independent suspension on all 4 corners. This is derived from the front suspension of he Fiat Ballila of the mid-'30s with a long lower a-arm and a shorter upper link which is a rocker arm actuating a coil spring and shock absorber in a cast aluminum housing. The rear units do not have a spacer to lock the inner races of the tapered roller bearings together in the hub carrier which results in the outer bearing race turning on the hub with negative results. 

I have wondered why Fiat did not see the need for a proper bearing spacer in these hubs and thought that possibly they were just ahead of the times.

[Allan Lupton]

I want to thank you all for improving my knowledge of the history of independent rear suspension.

I specialise in the restoration of Fiat and SIATA V8 cars, which have independent suspension on all 4 corners. This is derived from the front suspension of he Fiat Ballila of the mid-'30s with a long lower a-arm and a shorter upper link which is a rocker arm actuating a coil spring and shock absorber in a cast aluminum housing. The rear units do not have a spacer to lock the inner races of the tapered roller bearings together in the hub carrier which results in the outer bearing race turning on the hub with negative results. 

I have wondered why Fiat did not see the need for a proper bearing spacer in these hubs and thought that possibly they were just ahead of the times.

This is verging on the technical, but a pair of taper roller bearings usually needs to be adjusted to a suitable degree of end-load which would require any spacer to be of easily variable length (an example of how that is done (no spacer) is on front hubs of RWD cars)  or alternatively the adjustment can be present in the mounting of the outer races (e.g.pinion shafts of live rear axles)

As my examples show, the proper used of taper roller bearings is not an IRS matter alone.