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Mercedes-AMG F1 W05 Part II


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#1 AVA1

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 13:13

Someone said 4000 posts warranted a second part so I thought if start it.

 

(Thread continues from part one here)


Edited by SophieB, 26 April 2014 - 18:51.
added link to old thread


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#2 SirT

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 13:17

Bob Bell is leaving. http://www.mercedesa...l-announcement/



#3 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 13:34

Was to be expected. I always thought he will be the firstto go after Lowe's arrival and Brawn's exit. Wouldn't be surprised if he got the job at Ferrari.



#4 Timstr11

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 13:36

 

Not good.

He worked very well together with Ross Brawn and he is a casualty of Paddy Lowe arriving (which was a Mercedes board knee jerk reaction).

He's been very important in the revival of Brackley.

 

I think he's going to McLaren.


Edited by Timstr11, 14 April 2014 - 13:37.


#5 RubalSher

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 13:39

Hullo everyone in this new thread :wave:



#6 Timstr11

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:16

What's also worrying is that Bob Bell had a (mostly) factory-based role which was Ross Brawn's vision.

It's quite easy to loose touch with the base if you're travelling as much. So far I've seen Costa at every race.

 

I also hope Paddy Lowe does not loose focus on aerodynamics, like he let happen at McLaren.

Bob bell is an aero man by training.



#7 alframsey

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:17

Not sure how to feel about Bell leaving; I feel like with the exit of Brawn and the arrival of Lowe, now the exit of Bell, the structure which delivered this car is being eroded... I hope I am just being tad pessimistic.



#8 sabjit

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:17

So 4 was 5 then 4 and now 3



#9 Timstr11

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:25

Not sure how to feel about Bell leaving; I feel like with the exit of Brawn and the arrival of Lowe, now the exit of Bell, the structure which delivered this car is being eroded... I hope I am just being tad pessimistic.

I think Bob Bell (like Ross Brawn) disagrees with the (in my opinion) unnecessary changes the Mercedes board made at the time with the appointment of Toto.


Edited by Timstr11, 14 April 2014 - 14:25.


#10 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:29

Not sure how to feel about Bell leaving; I feel like with the exit of Brawn and the arrival of Lowe, now the exit of Bell, the structure which delivered this car is being eroded... I hope I am just being tad pessimistic.

 

It can't be good, as Timstr says. I hope the erosion you speak about is not just starting. I have said this last year, when the Lowe story broke, and the departure of Brawn became inevitable. There are at least 3 engineers who are on the same level as Lowe at Merc. Brawn was a figure of authority to everyone on the tech and sporting side of things. I am not sure Lowe carries that kind of authority. Bell left Renault at once when he was not promoted to TP. His departure is a big loss to Merc, and a huge gain to any team he will join.



#11 rooksby

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:41

Race against time for the Mercedes drivers.

 

Try to wrap up a title for themselves with any remaining, lingering, Brawn/Bell momentum, before the as yet unimpressive Paddy Lowe builds them a Woking special.



#12 KiloWatt

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 14:53

Very sad by this.  As many, I feel he is a casualty of the Merc knee-jerk reaction.  Typical case of the brass forgetting what it's like in the trenches.  I hope Lowe can step in - as far as I'm aware, TD was always his strongsuite.

 

I don't like where this is headed...Let's hope we don't lose more.



#13 Markn93

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:12

Race against time for the Mercedes drivers.

 

Try to wrap up a title for themselves with any remaining, lingering, Brawn/Bell momentum, before the as yet unimpressive Paddy Lowe builds them a Woking special.

Seriously? I recall Paddy being the only one who could take it to Newey with the 27, his last 'Woking special'. He's an incredible designer and should get a lot more recognition than he does. 



#14 P123

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:17

The problem for Merc is the knowledge that Bell potentially takes with him to a rival.  I don't see Lowe as an inferior replacement, but I wonder how that will effect his role on the pitwall at races.  Will he still have time for that?  Does Wolff take over the traditional full TP role? 



#15 hollowstar

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:18

Seriously? I recall Paddy being the only one who could take it to Newey with the 27, his last 'Woking special'. He's an incredible designer and should get a lot more recognition than he does.


Yeah I agree he's good at that. Way better than Tim Goss it seems. But he's not involved in car design at all at Merc... Or is he?


Edited by hollowstar, 14 April 2014 - 15:48.


#16 David1976

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:20

I know Bell is very popular at the factory so I doubt him leaving is good news at all.

Good news for whoever grabs him.

 

Ferrari?

McLaren?



#17 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:26

Bob bell to Haas, you heard it here first!

#18 pacificquay

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:30

I think most likely he's going to McLaren



#19 f1rules

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:33

let him come to mclaren please!



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#20 rooksby

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:55

Seriously? I recall Paddy being the only one who could take it to Newey with the 27, his last 'Woking special'. He's an incredible designer and should get a lot more recognition than he does. 

 

Yes seriously, that's why I said it, I am not here for the jokes.

The 27 that lost yet another championship for Woking. Taking its place with all the other empty spots in the undisturbed constructors trophy cabinet that they have in the MTC. Why no mention of his 28, or his involvement in the years long project that spawned a 29. Over the years having to desperately bolt on old rear wings and gallons of flo-viz, not figuring out the outwash front wing for half a season, failed exhaust concepts, failing to capitalize on aero innovation, there were a catalogue of fatal missteps which occurred when his name was on the door. He cost Whitmarsh his job, helped himself to Brawn's job, and eliminated Bell's job.

 

That feeling you get trying to think of the last time Woking built a car that genuinely, properly, scared their opponents, that feeling is called the Woking malaise. Cars with no rear end and too stiff front ends that aren't good enough. Brawn/Bell built a monster this year, in comparison, being Toto Wolff's pal isn't on its own enough to convince.

 

The advice stands, boys grab your WDC & WCC quick as you can ... the celebrated architects of that success are thought by the board to be surplus to requirements, and the architect of perennial disappointment is regarded as the satisfactory upgrade.


Edited by rooksby, 14 April 2014 - 15:56.


#21 slmk

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 15:56

People come and go. Didn't Mercedes get soem Red Bull engineers recently?

 

Bell's departure will be felt. If Mercedes is serious about its involvement in F1, they will try to chase big names from other teams (Fallows? for instance)



#22 Markn93

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 16:00

Yes seriously, that's why I said it, I am not here for the jokes.

The 27 that lost yet another championship for Woking. Taking its place with all the other empty spots in the undisturbed constructors trophy cabinet that they have in the MTC. Why no mention of his 28, or his involvement in the years long project that spawned a 29. Having to desperately bolt on old rear wings and gallons of flo-viz, not figuring out the outwash front wing for half a season, failed exhaust concepts, failing to capitalize on aero innovation, there were a catalogue of missteps which occurred when his name was on the door. He cost Whitmarsh his job, helped himself to Brawn's job, and eliminated Bell's job.

 

That feeling you get trying to think of the last time Woking built a car that genuinely, properly, scared their opponents, that feeling is called the Woking malaise. Cars with no rear end and too stiff front ends that aren't good enough. Brawn/Bell built a monster this year, in comparison, being Toto Wolff's pal isn't on its own enough to convince.

 

The advice stands, boys grab your WDC & WCC quick as you can ... the celebrated architects of that success are thought by the board to be surplus to requirements, and the architect of perennial disappointment is regarded as the satisfactory upgrade.

Ok now I know you're being ridiculous. It was the fastest car for the majority of the season, regardless of what the team did with it, that is the point at hand not whether it won the WDC/WCC as there have been plenty of front of the grid cars that haven't won either.

 

Because the 28 was predominantly Tim Goss and Paddy may not have had any involvement in either project (almost certainly none in the 29's case) depending on when in 2012 he was frozen out of the design process and stuck in the GT team before his gardening leave.



#23 Bartonz20let

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 16:28

More than member in the team guys, let's not over state this.

#24 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 16:38

Yeah I agree he's good at that. Way better than Tim Goss it seems. But he's not involved in car design at all at Merc... Or is he?

 

 

Seriously? I recall Paddy being the only one who could take it to Newey with the 27, his last 'Woking special'. He's an incredible designer and should get a lot more recognition than he does. 

 

Lowe - on paper, until now - was quasi TP, at least when it comes to anything sports/tech related. He was above Newey's position and not actually designing the car. Now it seems he took over Bell's job, and design too. I do think he is good at that, yes.

People come and go. Didn't Mercedes get soem Red Bull engineers recently?

 

Bell's departure will be felt. If Mercedes is serious about its involvement in F1, they will try to chase big names from other teams (Fallows? for instance)

 

This is true. It is not the end of the world. Brawn and Bell leaving within a few months of each other is not the happiest of news though.



#25 slmk

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 16:58

Lowe - on paper, until now - was quasi TP, at least when it comes to anything sports/tech related. He was above Newey's position and not actually designing the car. Now it seems he took over Bell's job, and design too. I do think he is good at that, yes.

 

This is true. It is not the end of the world. Brawn and Bell leaving within a few months of each other is not the happiest of news though.

 

Agreed. But I thought the true strength of Mercedes was that it was a car engineered by many "cooks" (i.e. the collective grey matter of many) as opposed to the genius of one (prevalent in other teams).

 

Maybe Bob Bell will just retire from F1 altogether? Anyway, key for Mercedes to keep pushing and continue to be aggressive on the poaching of rival engineers. We have to be fortunate that Bell left a sound platform for the new regulations.

 

Re: Lowe, the fact that McLaren is still struggling over a year after his departure shows that the aero-issues for McLaren run deep, very deep.


Edited by slmk, 14 April 2014 - 16:58.


#26 SR388

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 17:09

Here's my fresh take on the situation. These two hotrods are running fast. The team is sensational. Updates are coming constantly. The remainder of this season will be fun.

I'm already working on title clinching scenarios.

Edited by SR388, 14 April 2014 - 17:10.


#27 senna da silva

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 17:11

Bob bell to Haas, you heard it here first!

 

That would be quite the coup for Haas.



#28 Retrofly

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 17:48

In my eyes its more motivation to keep ahead rather than catch up.



#29 TomNokoe

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 17:50

Strange how he has abandoned a very well sailing ship, destination DOMINATIONVILLE. I have every faith in Merc, these foundations are strrrooooong.

#30 Timstr11

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 17:51

According to our sources, Bob Bell is set to join McLaren-Honda as Technical Director in 2015. #F1 #Formula1



#31 slmk

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 18:03

 

According to our sources, Bob Bell is set to join McLaren-Honda as Technical Director in 2015. #F1 #Formula1

 

 

Unsurprising. Will Bell go through a garderning leave and only join McLaren Honda later in the season? The fact that McLaren poached Bell and Prodromou means that the aero department was clearly lacking.

 

Bob left Mercedes with a fundamentally strong base. I guess Mercedes will now assess if it's worth trying to poach some key engineers elsewhere (Lotus, Red Bull) or if it is happy with its current staff (less Brawn and Bell).


Edited by slmk, 14 April 2014 - 18:07.


#32 ZionLH

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 18:07

 

According to our sources, Bob Bell is set to join McLaren-Honda as Technical Director in 2015. #F1 #Formula1

 

Interesting, i guess it was to be expected judging by people comments. Macca building the foundations nicely fo the Honda partnership, still a lost for Merc but people come and go in the f1 circus.



#33 RubalSher

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 18:30

Will Bell go through a garderning leave and only join McLaren Honda later in the season?

 

The Merc website (I think) says that he resigned during the winter and his gardening leave will be over this winter. So he should be able to join whoever starting 2015.



#34 slmk

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:26

The Merc website (I think) says that he resigned during the winter and his gardening leave will be over this winter. So he should be able to join whoever starting 2015.

 

We are in the spring now, which means his gardening leave is over...?!



#35 alframsey

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:28

We are in the spring now, which means his gardening leave is over...?!

Nope, gardening leave to begin this forthcoming winter.



#36 slmk

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:30

Nope, gardening leave to begin this forthcoming winter.

 

Yeah sorry :blush:  - just read the article. He is leaving at the end of the season. 

 

EDIT: Sounds like he already stepped down but is only leaving at the end of the season. What will he be doing for the next 7 months at Mercedes? 


Edited by slmk, 14 April 2014 - 19:33.


#37 hollowstar

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:39

Yeah sorry :blush:  - just read the article. He is leaving at the end of the season. 

 

EDIT: Sounds like he already stepped down but is only leaving at the end of the season. What will he be doing for the next 7 months at Mercedes? 

 

Some gardening! 



#38 peroa

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:39

Yeah sorry :blush:  - just read the article. He is leaving at the end of the season. 

 

EDIT: Sounds like he already stepped down but is only leaving at the end of the season. What will he be doing for the next 7 months at Mercedes? 

That's why it's called gardening leave.

He stopped working in December already, he will be watering plants till the end of November 2014.



#39 slmk

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:42

:blush:  :blush:  :blush:  Not my finest moment...

 

That's a long-ass gardening leave, though. 



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#40 peroa

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 19:49

One year seems pretty normal.

The more interesting thing is that it was kept quite for so long and that his departure coincides with Brawn's.



#41 alframsey

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 20:07

I thought it started this coming winter... why am I finding it so difficult to get me head around this? Haha.



#42 Timstr11

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 20:13

:blush:  :blush:  :blush:  Not my finest moment...

 

That's a long-ass gardening leave, though. 

1 Year is normal for very senior figures. For others, 6 months is the norm.



#43 Timstr11

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 20:15

One year seems pretty normal.

The more interesting thing is that it was kept quite for so long and that his departure coincides with Brawn's.

Brawn was signing Bell's praise all the time. They worked well together. obviously he did not want to continue without Brawn there.



#44 KingTiger

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 22:29

Yes seriously, that's why I said it, I am not here for the jokes.

The 27 that lost yet another championship for Woking. Taking its place with all the other empty spots in the undisturbed constructors trophy cabinet that they have in the MTC. Why no mention of his 28, or his involvement in the years long project that spawned a 29. Over the years having to desperately bolt on old rear wings and gallons of flo-viz, not figuring out the outwash front wing for half a season, failed exhaust concepts, failing to capitalize on aero innovation, there were a catalogue of fatal missteps which occurred when his name was on the door. He cost Whitmarsh his job, helped himself to Brawn's job, and eliminated Bell's job.

 

That feeling you get trying to think of the last time Woking built a car that genuinely, properly, scared their opponents, that feeling is called the Woking malaise. Cars with no rear end and too stiff front ends that aren't good enough. Brawn/Bell built a monster this year, in comparison, being Toto Wolff's pal isn't on its own enough to convince.

 

The advice stands, boys grab your WDC & WCC quick as you can ... the celebrated architects of that success are thought by the board to be surplus to requirements, and the architect of perennial disappointment is regarded as the satisfactory upgrade.

 

Imagine thinking that one guy is responsible for the success and failure of the entire car. 



#45 teejay

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:22

So if he hasn't worked since December perhaps the doomsayers can realise things have been going well without him.

 

Still, a loss. Thanks for your effforts BB



#46 MP422

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:49

I'm saddened by the loss of BB, best of luck to him. I am grateful for the work he did on the W05 !!! She's a beauty. The type of car i expected Mclaren to design winter after winter..  :cry:  


Edited by MP422, 15 April 2014 - 01:50.


#47 rooksby

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:56

Imagine thinking that one guy is responsible for the success and failure of the entire car. 

 

Imagine thinking that people employed at significant expense to deliver an expensive product, are in no way responsible for the repeated failures of that delivered product.

 

Poor management, without fail, produces disappointing outcomes; great managers deliver great outcomes. That is a statement of stubborn inflexible truth. It is his track record, a consistent, repeated pattern of underachievement and technical mis-steps, that he is required to be judged by. No-one else's, and certainly not his subordinates. The role he now enjoys in Mercedes, is the same role he had at McLaren. What he was singularly unable to accomplish in many, many attempts while at Woking, will now apparently be accomplished in Brackley ...

 

There is an arc of responsibility, of decisions ... of actions, consequences and results that link the people charged with working a project, to the person charged with co-ordinating that project. A million strings which all terminate at Technical Director. Any attempt to abdicate that responsibility in this thread will be vigorously opposed and denied.

 

Rival team principals would break their parent's legs to sign Newey, a similar rush for Lowe was not apparent. That statement encodes relevant information. Being on the right side of counter-productive boardroom politicking is no endorsement. Being best pals with someone who owns a lot of HWA or MGP stock is not in and off itself sufficient justification to simply abandon the accumulated historical evidence of past performance, and embark on some sort of faith based initiative as it seem you would attempt to perpetrate here.

 

Paddy Lowe never built a W05, never came close; men like Brawn, who did that repeatedly, were removed. It is now Lowe's unavoidable responsibility to maintain what he was given, despite your protestations, he will in fact be "responsible for the success and failure of the entire car", I have seen nothing in his past accomplishments which indicate in the long term that he will find that task to be achievable.



#48 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:34

Fully agree with you Rooksby. Lowe has a lot to prove still. Big shoes to fill.

 

I rate Bob Bell very highly and his departure has certainly weakened the team.

No one is saying that one person is designing an entire car, but the technical leadership is responsible for strategic decisions regarding organisation, design and development directions and priorities, proper resourcing and staffing etc.

Decisions that make a difference between a winning and losing car. Ross Brawn has credited Bob Bell more than once in his importance for the team on a strategic level.

He has also cherry-picked some of the best staff from Renault, like the current head of aero and the guy who designed the interlinked suspension.

 

As for Toto, responsible for Business. I have not seen any new sponsors since his arrival. BlackBerry was the last addition of significance, but that was the work of the hated Nick Fry.

I did read that Toto helped to convince Daimler to put more money into the team so I'll give him that.

 

Anyway, for me it will take a while before I judge the current leaders on their achievements.

This year was made easy for them by previous management. Next year will be the year to get an idea of what they're made of.


Edited by Timstr11, 15 April 2014 - 05:37.


#49 meddo

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:38

Ok. Who built W02,03,04?? I'm not even talking about 01 because of the downsizing and all that talk..

And now it seems that Lowe is some sort of new Sam Michael? Really?? 



#50 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:49

Ok. Who built W02,03,04?? I'm not even talking about 01 because of the downsizing and all that talk..

And now it seems that Lowe is some sort of new Sam Michael? Really?? 

Lowe was part of a fairly succesful organisation at Mclaren.

It's much more difficult to bring a team from the doldrums to the sharp end of the grid.

He has not been in that position and he is not in that position now.

I'm not saying he's no good. Just that it will take longer to see what he's capable of, especially when things get really tough.