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Mercedes-AMG F1 W05 Part II


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#51 Bartonz20let

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:37

If it weren't for the injection of cash & impitus from Merc the team would still be mid table at best. My understanding is the Merc cash has transformed the teams facilities.

As a manager, You can only be as good as the sum of all your parts and clearly the 'parts' in McLaren are not up to scratch, their continued fumbling is evidence of this.

It's too early to get the knives out for Lowe/Wolf or overstate the importance of Bell/Brawn, the wheels are still turning at quite a pace, no need to panic yet IMO

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#52 black magic

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:43

is it just me or is this team at times riven by political infighting.

 

board vs owner vs inspiration vs money vs old vs new blood vs lauda etc etc.

 

rvr relstatic by comparison. ferrari under todt was tight.



#53 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:25

Can anyone confirm or fix this impression...?

 

1.  Mercedes buy out Brawn for 2010, for £30m or so

2. They naively try to run to the £50m cost cap.

3. The team is legacy Honda staff, who are to some extent the ones who couldn't get a job in another team in 2008.

4.  They hire Schumi, but cannot get the rear tyres to last.

5.  At some point, the budget is increased and Brawn hires Costa, Willis, Bell and presumably various others.

6.  The Daimler board lose patience, sell 10% of the team to Lauda, 30% to Wolff, for not very much.

7.  Lauda and Brawn recruit Hamilton.  They are spending big by now.

8.  The Board/Wolff/Lauda hire Lowe.

9.  Lowe replaces Brawn and Bell.

 

I fear the Daimler Board is doing what boards do, and confidently making decisions reactively, one at a time, without having a clue beyond what they've seen on the news.  In their place I'd be on my knees to Brawn to come back, and move the others on!

 

But the team itself must be pretty good by now, so maybe all will be well.  Let's hope Mark Ellis is going to be a find.



#54 race addicted

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:49

Can anyone confirm or fix this impression...?

 

1.  Mercedes buy out Brawn for 2010, for £30m or so

2. They naively try to run to the £50m cost cap.

3. The team is legacy Honda staff, who are to some extent the ones who couldn't get a job in another team in 2008.

4.  They hire Schumi, but cannot get the rear tyres to last.

5.  At some point, the budget is increased and Brawn hires Costa, Willis, Bell and presumably various others.

6.  The Daimler board lose patience, sell 10% of the team to Lauda, 30% to Wolff, for not very much.

7.  Lauda and Brawn recruit Hamilton.  They are spending big by now.

8.  The Board/Wolff/Lauda hire Lowe.

9.  Lowe replaces Brawn and Bell.

 

I fear the Daimler Board is doing what boards do, and confidently making decisions reactively, one at a time, without having a clue beyond what they've seen on the news.  In their place I'd be on my knees to Brawn to come back, and move the others on!

 

But the team itself must be pretty good by now, so maybe all will be well.  Let's hope Mark Ellis is going to be a find.

I think what you say and what you air thoughts around, much of it is true. A BOD should not interefere with the running of the team. The lines and mandate given to the team should be set, preferably with relatively free reigns, and they'll get the job done.



#55 P123

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 10:41

Merc never tried to run at the cost cap, but they did run below the RRA guidelines which was a legacy of the lay-offs when Honda pulled out and sold to Brawn.  Merc also only briefly owned 100% of the team, when Aabar sold their stake back to them.  That was then offloaded to Wolff.



#56 slmk

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:38

Great article on the alleged Mercedes works' advantage.

 

http://f1elvis.com/2...stomer-service/



#57 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:03

Great article on the alleged Mercedes works' advantage.

 

http://f1elvis.com/2...stomer-service/

I liked reading about the head start Mercedes had with the log-style exhausts.



#58 AnR

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:11

I don't Think Mercedes Engine customer liked that Reading as much.



#59 race addicted

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:39

How reliable is Marc Priestley? ("looking at F1 from the inside out")

He sounded goofy to me the few times I've seen him at GP-weekends (youtube.)



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#60 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:48

Room to fit a small suitcase omg.

 

So Mac will be making up some ground now, one would think, and I guess the same applies to Williams and FI.



#61 KiloWatt

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:10

Room to fit a small suitcase omg.

 

So Mac will be making up some ground now, one would think, and I guess the same applies to Williams and FI.

 

Speaking of, from what I can tell, Merc seems much more friendly with Williams these days that they do with McLaren.  I guess it does come down to McLaren going to Honda.  This is just subjective opinion though...



#62 Rybo

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:13

Room to fit a small suitcase omg.
 
So Mac will be making up some ground now, one would think, and I guess the same applies to Williams and FI.

 

It will be cyclical, the teams will catch up for a little bit then Mercedes will introduce a new part and it starts all over again.

#63 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 16:11

 

It will be cyclical, the teams will catch up for a little bit then Mercedes will introduce a new part and it starts all over again.

Yeah I can't imagine the ones to come will be suitcase-sized though.  

 

BTW it also it makes the think of the massive Ferrari exhaust...



#64 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 16:15

Speaking of, from what I can tell, Merc seems much more friendly with Williams these days that they do with McLaren.  I guess it does come down to McLaren going to Honda.  This is just subjective opinion though...

Yeah Honda have to be on Merc's mind.  And this secret was quite aggressive really.  Add to that putting the boot into Red Bull at the tribunal gives me hope for Toto.



#65 andrewf1

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 22:20

This is a very nice video from Marc Priestley, former McLaren race team chief mechanic, covering many points about Mercedes' advantage. Although the first part is about the drivers, the 2nd one is about the car and it's much more interesting.

 


Edited by andrewf1, 15 April 2014 - 22:28.


#66 race addicted

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 22:27

That's him talking about what he wrote on his site.

…but very interesting :)



#67 andrewf1

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 22:37

That's him talking about what he wrote on his site.

…but very interesting :)

 

Oh...my mistake, I hadn't seen the link above to his site. Well, it's technically a repost, but in video form!



#68 George Costanza

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:03

Speaking of, from what I can tell, Merc seems much more friendly with Williams these days that they do with McLaren.  I guess it does come down to McLaren going to Honda.  This is just subjective opinion though...

 

It has everything to do with Honda. It's simple as that. Because everyone knows what Honda can do when it comes to turbos.... See the 1980s for that example. 1986-1988, there was no engine better... Honda was king.


Edited by George Costanza, 16 April 2014 - 02:04.


#69 teejay

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:04

Renault pioneered turbo's in F1, didn't count for much this time around



#70 George Costanza

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:07

Renault pioneered turbo's in F1, didn't count for much this time around

 

True; until they were beaten by Porsche, BMW and Honda in the 1980s.

Renault for me, had the best V10 engines ever. 



#71 Asterion

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:25

BMW had amazing V10 engines too, no?

#72 George Costanza

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:35

BMW had amazing V10 engines too, no?

 

Indeed they did. But from 1989 to 1997... all Renault. Even in 2003-2006, Reanult produced some great engines.



#73 Requin

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:20

BMW had amazing V10 engines too, no?

 

Yes they did, such as the P83, which was, in my opinion, the best engine ever in F1.

 

Man, Paul Rosche was a genius.



#74 George Costanza

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:19

Yes they did, such as the P83, which was, in my opinion, the best engine ever in F1.

 

Man, Paul Rosche was a genius.

 

Based on what, though? Sound/Power?

 

Ferraris V10 were better.



#75 KiloWatt

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:43

Renault pioneered turbo's in F1, didn't count for much this time around

 

Well, I certainly wouldn't underestimate the Renault.  When they get their engine right, we may find that they created a very good engine.  I know it doesn't seem like it now, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.



#76 bauss

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:19

that's probably why Ron Dennis is hopeful McLaren can still win races this season.

 

It should mean Red Bull are not our only main challengers... Mclaren n probably Williams n FI taking points off them could turn out to help us secure both titles a bit quicker.



#77 Timstr11

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:26

Well, I certainly wouldn't underestimate the Renault.  When they get their engine right, we may find that they created a very good engine.  I know it doesn't seem like it now, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

In their pre-China press release Renault said they will operate their engine close to the limit in the race. So lets wait and see.

Personally I think they have limitations in the architecture of their engine (as Ferrari has) so they might get closer but they will still be some way off.



#78 alframsey

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:48

It has everything to do with Honda. It's simple as that. Because everyone knows what Honda can do when it comes to turbos.... See the 1980s for that example. 1986-1988, there was no engine better... Honda was king.

It's a very different engine to those of the 80s though.



#79 slmk

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:52

The A,B and Cs of Mercedes' domination so far...

 

Domination, from an engine standpoint, which should last for the entire season (per Benson)

 

And he estimates power deficit for the others to be in the neighborhood of >=40hp

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/26946444


Edited by slmk, 16 April 2014 - 09:54.


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#80 Zoetrope

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:25

The A,B and Cs of Mercedes' domination so far...

 

Domination, from an engine standpoint, which should last for the entire season (per Benson)

 

And he estimates power deficit for the others to be in the neighborhood of >=40hp

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/26946444

In the paragraph about Merc turbo Benson is just copying Sky Sports material prepared by Mark Hughes  :smoking:



#81 undersquare

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:32

The A,B and Cs of Mercedes' domination so far...

 

Domination, from an engine standpoint, which should last for the entire season (per Benson)

 

And he estimates power deficit for the others to be in the neighborhood of >=40hp

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/26946444

Noticed the pic the BBC are using...

 

_74119876_74119875.jpg

 

with the huge bunch-of-bananas exhaust.  This must be what Merc were giving to their poor innocent customers before the season started.


Edited by undersquare, 16 April 2014 - 10:33.


#82 maxx7

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:59

there is any information about  update for China GP?



#83 slmk

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:02

there is any information about  update for China GP?

 

Certainly not a new nose  :cat:

 

Give the low temperatures for the GP, they might go ahead with more aggressive cooling solution (Jerez mark 1 maybe?) and with the new roll hoop cooling featured at the Bahrain test. Not sure about anything else, though. 



#84 Bongodrums

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:11

Certainly not a new nose  :cat:

 

Give the low temperatures for the GP, they might go ahead with more aggressive cooling solution (Jerez mark 1 maybe?) and with the new roll hoop cooling featured at the Bahrain test. Not sure about anything else, though. 

How do you know it is the new nose?? I thought it had still not passed the crash test.



#85 sabjit

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:23

How do you know it is the new nose?? I thought it had still not passed the crash test.

 

 

Certainly not a new nose  :cat:

 

Give the low temperatures for the GP, they might go ahead with more aggressive cooling solution (Jerez mark 1 maybe?) and with the new roll hoop cooling featured at the Bahrain test. Not sure about anything else, though. 



#86 Bongodrums

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:33

 

oh dear i need to learn to read or at least read more carefully, my apologies I will now go crawl into some dark corner.



#87 quasi C

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:42

There are 1250 people working in the F1 department at Mercedes [engine included]. This is from Niki Lauda in an interview with Autosprint magazine. Omnicorse are also reporting that the team is going to be trimmed down a bit.



#88 slmk

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:45

There are 1250 people working in the F1 department at Mercedes [engine included]. This is from Niki Lauda in an interview with Autosprint magazine. Omnicorse are also reporting that the team is going to be trimmed down a bit.

Why? Mercedes not willing to put in the money to support? I don't see RBR or Ferrari downsizing...

 

They should also try to get more sponsorship than Blackberry... which should not be hard considering current form.



#89 P123

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:54

That would just be a natural downsizing. Merc have probably been running twin programmes since 2012, especially on the engine side, which will give the inflated personnel total.

#90 bonjon1979a

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:54

Why? Mercedes not willing to put in the money to support? I don't see RBR or Ferrari downsizing...

 

They should also try to get more sponsorship than Blackberry... which should not be hard considering current form.

Building an engine from scratch is a lot more labour intensive than improving what they got. It's understandable really.



#91 Timstr11

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:59

Honda in Milton Keynes will have enough job opportunities.



#92 Szoelloe

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 18:05

That would just be a natural downsizing. Merc have probably been running twin programmes since 2012, especially on the engine side, which will give the inflated personnel total.

 

This.

I don't think Merc will be downsizing substantially though. If anything, the other top teams need upsizing. ALL of them. If RB is sticking with F1, they will invest in buying an engine supplier IMHO.



#93 slmk

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 18:24

That would just be a natural downsizing. Merc have probably been running twin programmes since 2012, especially on the engine side, which will give the inflated personnel total.

 

Yeah, that makes sense. I did not consider that.



#94 northanmonkee2

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 19:43

is there a list somewhere of  how many engine componants have been used by all cars so far  ?



#95 Maaarsh

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 20:46

Why? Mercedes not willing to put in the money to support? I don't see RBR or Ferrari downsizing...

 

They should also try to get more sponsorship than Blackberry... which should not be hard considering current form.

 

You're aware RIM is dead as a dodo as a consumer company, ya?



#96 TC3000

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 21:29

is there a list somewhere of  how many engine componants have been used by all cars so far  ?

 

 may need to wait for the weekend, to get an updated list, this is the one from the beginning of the Bahrain weekend.

 

kqC6qWv.png



#97 MaxisOne

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 21:30

Honda in Milton Keynes will have enough job opportunities.

 

This i do not want ..  :well:



#98 Bartonz20let

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:34

This i do not want .. :well:


All depends on who's getting made redundant, pretty sure the bigger names will have employment clauses stipulating where they can work for a period after.

Edited by Bartonz20let, 17 April 2014 - 06:34.


#99 Zava

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:28

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#100 syolase

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:34

BlaBvijCMAEPAje.jpg

 

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