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#1 Massa

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:11

http://www.nextgen-a...ages,75312.html

 

It's surprise for me that even Ferrari can't pay Kobayashi..

 


F1 drivers are threatening to strike if their teams do not pay them.

Germany’s Sport Bild reports that, in Bahrain recently, Kimi Raikkonen’s manager Steve Robertson was seen arguing in the paddock with Lotus team boss Federico Gastaldi.

Reportedly, that is because the Finn, who switched to Ferrari at the end of last year, still has not been paid in full by Lotus for the 2013 season.

The magazine claims that Romain Grosjean, Nico Hulkenberg, Adrian Sutil and Kamui Kobayashi are all also waiting on overdue payments.

It is believed that, under the auspices of their union, the GPDA, the F1 drivers have signed a document vowing to strike if the growing trend of not being paid continues.

Sport Bild claims that Raikkonen - not a GPDA member - and one of F1’s very highest earners, Lewis Hamilton, have refused to sign the document.

Hulkenberg would not comment.

"What we talk about in meetings, we keep to ourselves," said the German, who moved from Sauber to Force India for the 2014 season.

He admitted, however, that unpaid wages is an issue for the drivers.

"That’s right. The teams are aware of the situation — the driver can be easily replaced. Maybe not with the same quality, but they (the teams) do take advantage of that."

Hulkenberg also expressed some understanding for the situation of the teams.

"They are not doing it (failing to pay drivers) for fun," he acknowledged. "The money just isn’t there. The sport is too expensive."

 



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#2 DanardiF1

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:18

Who says it's Ferrari... Could be Sauber from 2012!

#3 artista

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:26

I read about it some 10 days ago (don't remember where) and they said it was Sauber who still owed him money, not Ferrari.

#4 alfa1

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:34

I read about it some 10 days ago (don't remember where) and they said it was Sauber who still owed him money, not Ferrari.

 

 

There's this article from 6 months ago:

 

Sauber owes money to Hulkenberg, Gutierrez, Kobayashi, Ferrari, Pireli and more...

http://grandprix247....relli-and-more/



#5 Massa

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:35

Who says it's Ferrari... Could be Sauber from 2012!

 

In the french version of this article, it's said it is 2013 salary for Koba. Last year, Koba was a Ferrari GT driver



#6 Maikel0230

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:42

I'm pretty sure Ferrari paid Koba the full sum they owed him. To even sugest Ferrari leaves a bill unpaid is an insult :rotfl: 



#7 tifosiMac

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:44

He probably still owes them a few thousand for the car he trashed in Russia on that demo run :p 



#8 noikeee

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:05

There's this article from 6 months ago:

 

Sauber owes money to Hulkenberg, Gutierrez, Kobayashi, Ferrari, Pireli and more...

http://grandprix247....relli-and-more/

 

Explains why they're stuck with a Sutil/Gutierrez driver lineup whilst having to shuffle Sirotkin and van der Garde too as "test" drivers.



#9 BRG

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 16:39

This ought to make drivers wonder whether they aren't pricing themselves out of a job.  Teams strapped for cash won't/can't afford multi-million dollar salaries.

 

But I don't suppose economic reality is likely to filter through to pampered ego-maniacs like F1 drivers.  Not even Hulkenberg who managed to lose his seat at Williams by demanding too much for his second season and spent that year sitting around twiddling his thumbs (and not earning anything either).



#10 VolvoT5

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 16:55

This ought to make drivers wonder whether they aren't pricing themselves out of a job.  Teams strapped for cash won't/can't afford multi-million dollar salaries.

 

But I don't suppose economic reality is likely to filter through to pampered ego-maniacs like F1 drivers.  Not even Hulkenberg who managed to lose his seat at Williams by demanding too much for his second season and spent that year sitting around twiddling his thumbs (and not earning anything either).

No one forced the teams to sign contracts giving the drivers huge wages.  I'm sure there are plenty of other drivers (probably not as good though...) who would drive for virtually free just to get a chance in F1.   I think in Kimi's case he was put on a $ per point contract and clearly Lotus massively underestimated just how many points he would score for them over the 2 years. 

 

The teams made the deals and now they should pay up.  I'm surprised the drivers haven't filed legal action, bankruptcy or whatever is required to squeeze the cash out of them. 



#11 DS27

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 16:57

It's come to something when the top 10 - 20 drivers in the world (arguably) can't get paid.

Can you imagine this situation in football - jeez, I wonder how many fotballers are earning over £1M per month. I bet there's a lot, and I also think it likely that in football, they just wouldn't play if they weren't getting paid.

#12 jrwb6e

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 17:05

I'm pretty sure Ferrari paid Koba the full sum they owed him. To even sugest Ferrari leaves a bill unpaid is an insult :rotfl:

 

The Ferrari team always pays its debts.



#13 Bartonz20let

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 20:50

It's come to something when the top 10 - 20 drivers in the world (arguably) can't get paid.

Can you imagine this situation in football - jeez, I wonder how many fotballers are earning over £1M per month. I bet there's a lot, and I also think it likely that in football, they just wouldn't play if they weren't getting paid.

One striking similarity to football is that in many ways the drivers/players are earning more than the teams can afford to pay.

Too many teams in both sports paying the market rate (read agents rate) dictated by the driver and management not the price they can afford to pay.

The only difference in f1 is that there are even less teams willing to offer a wage but I'm sure the agents still do a good job talking up the interest to sign the driver in their books.

Edited by Bartonz20let, 15 April 2014 - 20:52.


#14 Hans V

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:18

With so many teams in financial dire straits I fare for the F1 supplier industry. Many smaller suppliers doesn't get paid partly or in full and if that continues these will either go bust or have to find other customers/markets. Which will damage F1 as teams and these suppliers are dependint on eachother.

#15 Nobody

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:32

But we needed new expensive engines, and now they wanna scrap the cost cap.



#16 tifosiMac

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:42

The Ferrari team always pays its debts.

They are a bit like the Lannister's of Formula One then!  :lol:



#17 Nonesuch

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:47

"The teams are aware of the situation — the driver can be easily replaced. Maybe not with the same quality, but they (the teams) do take advantage of that."

 

Welcome to the real world, I guess. :p Many people have commented on the rising level of open-wheel racing drivers in general - favourably comparing the 2014 F1/GP2/FR3.5 grid to those of 10 years ago. I suppose one of the downsides for the drives is that they are no longer all that special. Perhaps that means they're no longer worth all those millions of dollars, and that has to be a disappointing realisation.

 

Of course the teams should pay what they've agreed to pay - but at the same time it might be a good moment to re-evaluate the salary of drivers. The teams will never agree on any form of cap, though, so the likes of Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes will keep throwing millions around, pulling the salaries of other teams upward as well. Poor teams... :p


Edited by Nonesuch, 16 April 2014 - 08:49.


#18 HeadFirst

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:02

Welcome to the real world, I guess. :p Many people have commented on the rising level of open-wheel racing drivers in general - favourably comparing the 2014 F1/GP2/FR3.5 grid to those of 10 years ago. I suppose one of the downsides for the drives is that they are no longer all that special. Perhaps that means they're no longer worth all those millions of dollars, and that has to be a disappointing realisation.

 

Of course the teams should pay what they've agreed to pay - but at the same time it might be a good moment to re-evaluate the salary of drivers. The teams will never agree on any form of cap, though, so the likes of Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes will keep throwing millions around, pulling the salaries of other teams upward as well. Poor teams... :p

Drivers receive what the market deems is reasonable for their services on an individual basis, the market of course being determined by the teams. The teams need to determine what percentage of their budget (money they actually have) is to be allotted for driver's salaries and act appropriately. It might mean that a team may not be able to afford the driver they want (Lotus with Kimi for example), but that is the reality of the sport. In the end, employees have rights and must be paid. Teams such as Lotus who blatantly fail to meet financial obligations, discredit F1 and should be excluded.



#19 HeadFirst

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:38

In the french version of this article, it's said it is 2013 salary for Koba. Last year, Koba was a Ferrari GT driver

The direct translation is ...... and even Kobayshi Kamui, who was a pilot at Ferrari GT (et même Kamui Kobayshi, qui était pilote GT chez Ferrari), so the implication is clearly there. However since the 2 versions differ and a source is credited for the English version, but not the French, I think the English version is more reliable. The fact that the story is about F1, yet the French translation references a GT problem only in Ferrari's case is also suspicious. It seems more likely to me, that it is yet another attempt at Ferrari bashing.



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#20 BRG

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 16:16

The direct translation is ...... and even Kobayshi Kamui, who was a pilot at Ferrari GT (et même Kamui Kobayshi, qui était pilote GT chez Ferrari), so the implication is clearly there. However since the 2 versions differ and a source is credited for the English version, but not the French, I think the English version is more reliable. The fact that the story is about F1, yet the French translation references a GT problem only in Ferrari's case is also suspicious. It seems more likely to me, that it is yet another attempt at Ferrari bashing.

Kobayashi drove for AF Corse last year, not for Scuderia Ferrari.  He drove a Ferrari car but the team is run by Amato Ferrari (hence the AF) who is no relative of the Enzo Ferrari family.  Ferrari is a common name - it just means smith or ironworker.  So the story is perhaps right in fingering (Amato) Ferrari for non payment, but not Maranello.



#21 Lazy

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 16:20

I'd be worried if the mechanics weren't getting paid. Not worried about the drivers in the slightest.



#22 Massa

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 16:22

I'd be worried if the mechanics weren't getting paid. Not worried about the drivers in the slightest.

 

It's already the case at lotus...



#23 pdac

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 16:46

Unpaid drivers should just go to court to seize the assets of the teams that owe them money.



#24 muramasa

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:10

re:Kobayashi, as alfa1 posted above, last summer it was reported that Kobayashi was unpaid by Sauber for 2.5m EURO.

Referring to Ferrari in recent article should be just about mentioning what Kobayashi was doing in 2013 or just mistake. Also "2013 salary" part should be just a mistake. Hard to believe Kobayashi was unpaid for his Ferrari GT effort in 2013. Just too out of blue and out of context.

 

 

btw, according to Business Book GP, Kobayashi's salary was;

2010: 0.5m EURO

2011: 1m EURO

2012: 1m EURO

that makes 2.5m EURO. So if the Bild's figure of E2.5m unpaid is true, Kobayashi was / still is (not fully) unpaid for the whole 3 years at Sauber, not just for 2012. That's incredible if true.



#25 X61

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 17:27

Unpaid drivers should just go to court to seize the assets of the teams that owe them money.

Only the ones who have no intentions of ever racing again.



#26 pdac

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 20:06

Only the ones who have no intentions of ever racing again.

 

That's the point. They want to race so really they should just accept that the only way to do that might be to do it for free. Yes it's bad that they agree contracts and then the teams don't pay up, but there's not a lot they can do other than wine about it or seek legal redress.

 

It sounds like some drivers are trying to convince the ones that have no problems to help them out, but really, if they won't help themselves because they might put their career at risk, why would they expect others to put their careers on the line too?



#27 metz

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 20:20

I fail to se why the drivers should not get together to protect their interests from the teams.

It is exactly what the teams did to protect themselves from shady track operators. (Bernie's rise to power).



#28 taran

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 20:43

Only the ones who have no intentions of ever racing again.

 

Would that really be the case? Drivers who are disruptive may not be attractive to a team but a driver who waits 3 years before taking action against a team is hardly a money grubbing firebrand....

And with that money he might fund a new drive.....

 

In the end, drivers also need to make a living and they aren't all Kimi's with millions socked away. I wouldn't hold it against a driver if he pursued his wages in court. Even Sutil and Gachot found drives (different issues but still drivers with a criminal record so surely not that attractive to sponsors).



#29 Tombstone

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 21:05

I'm pretty sure Ferrari paid Koba the full sum they owed him. To even sugest Ferrari leaves a bill unpaid is an insult :rotfl:

 

In which case I gladly insult that lot by claiming they owe money.


Edited by Tombstone, 16 April 2014 - 21:06.


#30 Brother Fox

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:25

I'm pretty sure Ferrari paid Koba the full sum they owed him. To even sugest Ferrari leaves a bill unpaid is an insult :rotfl:


It's got a lot of competition, but that is probably the most one-eyed fan boy comment I've ever seen here.

#31 alfa1

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:02

Would that really be the case? Drivers who are disruptive may not be attractive to a team but a driver who waits 3 years before taking action against a team is hardly a money grubbing firebrand....

 

Since the question was about "Unpaid drivers should just go to court to seize the assets of the teams that owe them money.", I'd be rather sure that legal action to extract a few million out of a F1 team (a team who clearly does not have that money) would result in the team shutting down.

300 people unemployed.

 

That driver would never race again in anything except a gokart in his own back yard.



#32 HoldenRT

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:38

I don't necessarily think that this means that F1 costs too much, just more a case of where the teams are willing to spend their money.  Where the priorities lie and the drivers are on the bottom of the list.

 

I mean yeah.. F1 is expensive but it always has been and it's actually less expensive now than it used to be 10 years ago or probably even 5 years ago.



#33 taran

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:28

Since the question was about "Unpaid drivers should just go to court to seize the assets of the teams that owe them money.", I'd be rather sure that legal action to extract a few million out of a F1 team (a team who clearly does not have that money) would result in the team shutting down.

300 people unemployed.

 

That driver would never race again in anything except a gokart in his own back yard.

 

Interesting take on the issue. Taking a personal financial hit so others will be spared. Not something that's very common I'd argue and certainly not very prevailing amongst the denizens of the Piranha club. Are there any examples of this? I do know there have been threats of legal action between drivers and teams (IIRC Jos Verstappen versus Walkinshaw, Frentzen versus Jordan etc.) and between technical suppliers and teams such as Cosworth against several teams which included court officials ready to impound cars. Don't know about the drivers but it certainly didn't hurt Cosworth's reputation.

 

I wonder if Kimi's reputation would have taken a hit if he had forced Lotus into bankruptcy proceedings or if he would have been hailed for taking a stand against a team of deadbeats....



#34 AngelaTifosi

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:36

Interesting take on the issue. Taking a personal financial hit so others will be spared. Not something that's very common I'd argue and certainly not very prevailing amongst the denizens of the Piranha club. Are there any examples of this? I do know there have been threats of legal action between drivers and teams (IIRC Jos Verstappen versus Walkinshaw, Frentzen versus Jordan etc.) and between technical suppliers and teams such as Cosworth against several teams which included court officials ready to impound cars. Don't know about the drivers but it certainly didn't hurt Cosworth's reputation.

 

I wonder if Kimi's reputation would have taken a hit if he had forced Lotus into bankruptcy proceedings or if he would have been hailed for taking a stand against a team of deadbeats....

 

If kimi want to force Lotus into bankruptcy, he would've ally himself with GPDA by signing the agreement.

 

It's not even funny on such topic itself. Driver put themselves on the risk by racing for the team. You have to put certain effort in valuing their sacrifices.

 

By not paying them at all showed the team has no racing spirit.

 

And i blame FIA and FOM for not acting firmly in implementing cost cap. Allow the big teams to decide what they want to do about the sport.


Edited by AngelaTifosi, 17 April 2014 - 10:40.


#35 pdac

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 18:28

Since the question was about "Unpaid drivers should just go to court to seize the assets of the teams that owe them money.", I'd be rather sure that legal action to extract a few million out of a F1 team (a team who clearly does not have that money) would result in the team shutting down.

300 people unemployed.

 

That driver would never race again in anything except a gokart in his own back yard.

 

 

Well, I did follow-up by saying that if they did not want to take the appropriate action to recover the money owed to them then they should not expect anyone else to be interested in helping them.

 

But to answer this specific point, if a business is not financially viable then it's going to fold anyway. If, on the other hand, it's just a cash-flow problem then they need to go to the bank and present their case for borrowing more there, not steal it from the drivers.



#36 LORDBYRON

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 19:48

Strom in a tea cup.

 

and the drivers don't have balls they bring there cash as sponsorship could simply writing in the contract that they get the money then pay the team in drips 



#37 Rurouni

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 20:00

Strom in a tea cup.

and the drivers don't have balls they bring there cash as sponsorship could simply writing in the contract that they get the money then pay the team in drips

?
what are you trying to say? at first I thought you were saying that the driver bring sponsorship but the sponsor didn't pay the team in a timely manner thus the driver didn't get their salary. But after reading it again, I'm not sure if that is really what you meant.

#38 KiloWatt

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 20:30

I was just wondering if those of you saying that the drivers should have the teams' assets liquidated, would enjoy an 8 car race?

Personally, I wouldn't, but to each his own.

But, ok, yes. Sarcasm aside, I'm not oblivious to the fact that you should pay what you said you would. It's a bit of tricky situation, really.

Edited by KiloWatt, 17 April 2014 - 20:31.


#39 Nonesuch

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 20:42

Drivers receive what the market deems is reasonable for their services on an individual basis, the market of course being determined by the teams.

 

True enough. It's their own problem, and some of the teams now have to lie in the beds they've made. :up:



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#40 pdac

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 21:42

Monisha Kaltenborn has inferred that the problem is the sponsors and partners not paying up in a timely manner. So the teams want to pay, but they are waiting for the money that's been promised to come in. And the teams can't really do much to chase up the sponsors because they not only want them to pay up, but to continue to sponsor them.

 

So once again the problem comes down to how the teams are so reliant on unreliable income sources because the commercial rights owner takes all the sports wealth.



#41 LORDBYRON

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 22:08

?
what are you trying to say? at first I thought you were saying that the driver bring sponsorship but the sponsor didn't pay the team in a timely manner thus the driver didn't get their salary. But after reading it again, I'm not sure if that is really what you meant.

what i meant was when the drivers sign new contracts they should have them written in such a way that that they get the money from there sponsors direct then it goes into a holding account  they then drip feed the team the amount required by team/sponsors they then get to control there own cash the problem is it wont take of as the teams may want the cash up front to pay debt but look at maldonado and his 30 million cash im sure they would be gagging to do what he says 

 

its no longer a team sport but rather a driver with cash sport



#42 F1matt

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 15:58

The drivers have no power, the teams could easily replace the entire field and fulfil sponsorship and FIA obligations, and for many teams could make a few extra quid from pay drivers. Perversely it could actually help Bernie increase viewing figures as people might tune in out of curiosity, and if the usual cars filled the top places it would strengthen the teams positions as they could drive wages down in future seasons, arguably this is the strongest we have seen pay drivers for many years with Victories and pole positions.

The comparison with football is ridiculous, footballers are selected throughout their career on merit, as most sports do, Motorsport is different as the richest drivers will always fare well and find good seats.

#43 X61

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 16:49

The drivers have no power, the teams could easily replace the entire field and fulfil sponsorship and FIA obligations, and for many teams could make a few extra quid from pay drivers. Perversely it could actually help Bernie increase viewing figures as people might tune in out of curiosity, and if the usual cars filled the top places it would strengthen the teams positions as they could drive wages down in future seasons, arguably this is the strongest we have seen pay drivers for many years with Victories and pole positions.

The comparison with football is ridiculous, footballers are selected throughout their career on merit, as most sports do, Motorsport is different as the richest drivers will always fare well and find good seats.

That's the problem.  There is a very basic supply and demand in F1.  Drivers will pay to stand around in a team shirt on the pit wall and call themselves third drivers.  If the team owners exploit this they could easily hire drivers that are far from the best, but have a very attractive checkbook.