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Formula 1 teams considering lifting ban on active suspension


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#1 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:09

Formula 1 teams are considering lifting the ban on active suspension as part of a move to control costs, AUTOSPORT has learned.

With F1's Strategy Group having decided against a cost cap, it is instead looking at alternative ways to keep spending under control.

 

The belief is that the electronic technology would actually be more cost effective for teams in terms of achieving the optimum car set-up than the current complicated mechanical-only systems.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113465



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#2 sabjit

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:13

:up:

 

(re)introducing advanced technology into the sport is always good. Will also help towards getting the cars back towards the pace they were in the mid-2000's



#3 ExFlagMan

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:13

A bit late for an April Fool joke.

Not sure how this would cut costs, unless there was a single spec component. If so then how long before someone decides to drill holes in a vital component.

#4 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:24

In a way I can see where they're coming from. Electronics and computer control systems are much more advanced now than in the early 90s. The mechanical systems are pretty much the same. A part of me likes the idea of a car which can pick its own attitude for greater performance.



#5 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:26

Sounds awesome to have that back again.

#6 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:28

Not so much active, but magnetic dampers are now commonplace on hatchbacks.  

 

The concern is the aerodynamic flexability that would be provided --- teams that optimise for performance for both pitch and squat would no longer have advantage.  :well: It would simplify and allow "dumber" aero as ride height will always be perfect...



#7 maverick69

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:28

Should never have been banned..... Particularly in the draconian way it was.

But let's not get into that......

#8 eronrules

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:30

if i remember correctly, R&D in active suspension in the early 90's was the 'Biggest spending' area of development. it not only needed sophisticated electronics (which perhaps now a days would be cheap, though mastering the system will use significant resources) but also evermore complex geometry and hydraulic sysmems to implement them.

 

so ... how in the flying **** is that supposed to help cutting cost???

 

also, isn't that a 'Driver Aid' ??? (simply on this basis, i'd say 'hell no' to active suspension)

 

or ... (my conspiracy sense is tingling) is it a way to stop RBR's (and newey's) aero advantages??

 

F1 sometimes makes no sense at all.  :stoned:


Edited by eronrules, 15 April 2014 - 13:32.


#9 pup

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:31

A bit late for an April Fool joke.

Not sure how this would cut costs, unless there was a single spec component. If so then how long before someone decides to drill holes in a vital component.

 

My guess is that it won't be spec, but will be packaged and sold to the smaller teams by the bigger ones, much like ERS systems, transmissions, etc.  We're moving into an era of customer cars, whether the sport is willing to admit it or not.



#10 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:33

It would only make sense for me if they went to low-profile tyres as part of it.

#11 tkulla

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:36

I'm opposed. It takes too much out of the driver's hands (and feet). The cars will basically be programmed for the track they are driving. It's just one step closer to letting the computer steer and at that point we might as well take the driver out of the car altogether. 



#12 Donkey

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:39

Not so much active, but magnetic dampers are now commonplace on hatchbacks.  

 

The concern is the aerodynamic flexability that would be provided --- teams that optimise for performance for both pitch and squat would no longer have advantage.  :well: It would simplify and allow "dumber" aero as ride height will always be perfect...

Isn't that part of the point though? Reducing dependence on obscenely expensive aero development and testing?



#13 krapmeister

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:40

Struggling to see how this would cut costs?

#14 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:41

I'd have no problem with a re-introduction.

I anticipate further cuts in aero as cars will corner much harder with active suspension.



#15 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:47

Passive mechanical interlinked suspension systems are apparently much more expensive to develop because of more complex parts, and more research to get to the point of a properly working system.

On the contrary, electronically controlled systems are quite well understood.



#16 dau

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:51

"Formula 1 teams" in this case meaning the F1 Strategy Group, consisting of Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren, Williams and Lotus. That's five teams who don't have to care about money plus Lotus, who should, but don't. Those are also the same teams who are mainly responsible for F1 being as expensive as it is by regularly blocking ideas for cost control and then implementing measures like the useless RRA as an 'alternative'. 

 

I bet the likes of Sauber, Force India, Caterham, Marussia and Haas will be delighted with this new idea to make F1 cheaper.


Edited by dau, 15 April 2014 - 13:53.


#17 Briz

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:54

I'm opposed. It takes too much out of the driver's hands (and feet). The cars will basically be programmed for the track they are driving. It's just one step closer to letting the computer steer and at that point we might as well take the driver out of the car altogether. 

 

this is my opinion too... other than that it makes perfect sense that it would cut costs, much simpler system than trying to achieve complex behaviour with conventional mechanics. Also much simpler to change the setup, just load a different software setting... they can test multiple settings on one run, no need to develop, produce and bring that many mechanical parts and no need for mechanics to work like crazy to make a small change.



#18 johnmhinds

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 13:56

Are these the same cost cuts that every other new regulation for the last 10 years was meant to bring?

 

Ha...

 

It's clear at this point the top teams will just want to keep spending as much as they can whatever the regulations are.

 

The FIA needs to grow some balls and implement the cost cap ASAP.


Edited by johnmhinds, 15 April 2014 - 13:59.


#19 Lewisisabamf

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:00

Can some one explain to me how active suspension is a driver aid as i am not seeing it ?



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#20 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:04

It would only make sense for me if they went to low-profile tyres as part of it.

From the articled linked to:

 

The move is being considered for 2017, and could come in at the same time as a switch to 18-inch tyre rims.

 



#21 Maikel0230

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:07

No, this is a driver aid we could do without, finally we have cars that are harder to drive again and now we should make them easier to drive??

 

No thank you, keep your silly aids. The driver should be in control not a computer. There are already to many grey areas we don't need another one.


Edited by Maikel0230, 15 April 2014 - 14:08.


#22 alframsey

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:09

Not a fan of active suspension tbh. Also where would this leave the investment Merc have put into FRIC? (Not that it would be a deciding factor, just curious tbh).



#23 Donkey

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:10

Can some one explain to me how active suspension is a driver aid as i am not seeing it ?

Active suspension = flatter car through corners = more downforce through corners = faster cornering speeds

 

At the moment it is a skill to control the rolling and pitching of the car through corners which separates the best drivers (and cars) from the rest. Active suspension would take that away from the drivers and level the playing field in that regard.



#24 ExFlagMan

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:15

Isn't that part of the point though? Reducing dependence on obscenely expensive aero development and testing?

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to ban multi-plane wings and all the expensive little aero twiddly bits.

Best definition of active suspension - 'a device for making a car running on a perfectly smooth track look like it's on Belgian Pave'

Edited by ExFlagMan, 15 April 2014 - 14:16.


#25 thiscocks

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:17

No, this is a driver aid we could do without, finally we have cars that are harder to drive again and now we should make them easier to drive??

 

No thank you, keep your silly aids. The driver should be in control not a computer. There are already to many grey areas we don't need another one.

Not sure its really a driver aid, more of an aero aid.

 

It might make sense if there is also an introduction of 18inch wheels and presumably lower profile tyres. Off topic but I seriosly hope they increase the track of the cars with the new wheel size otherwise they will look seriously shyite.



#26 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:20

On whether it's a driver aid or not, some drivers found the experience unintuitive and it made it harder for them. It doesn't attempt to correct the driver's control inputs, so I wouldn't class it as a driver aid.



#27 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:21

Active suspension = flatter car through corners = more downforce through corners = faster cornering speeds

 

At the moment it is a skill to control the rolling and pitching of the car through corners which separates the best drivers (and cars) from the rest. Active suspension would take that away from the drivers and level the playing field in that regard.

Drivers don't directly control this.

The dynamics of the car is the sum of many forces working together. Designers and Race Engineers effectively control how the car rolls and pitches. Whether done by an electronically controlled system or a mechanical system does not make a difference for driver skill I think.

The cars will just corner faster, so there will be new limits. Skilled drivers will just be closer to that limit.


Edited by Timstr11, 15 April 2014 - 14:22.


#28 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:21

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to ban multi-plane wings and all the expensive little aero twiddly bits.

Also from linked article

 

They include efforts to simplify parts of the car where there is currently vast expense, including in the fuel system, crash structures, the front wing design, inter-connected front and rear suspension, and brake ducts.

 



#29 Bartus Garoulaitis

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:23

Useless discussion, cars never ran without it....

 

Bartus(who thinks all members here have bad breath)



#30 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:39

active suspension to allow 18 inch rims.... pathetic



#31 Gorma

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:47

Not a bad idea. I'm for it. Since the ride height could be easily adjusted cars would be able to drive in the rain better than now days. 



#32 Timstr11

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:47

active suspension to allow 18 inch rims.... pathetic

Who said that?

 

It's just financially convenient to make the 2 coincide.

18 inch rims will require a wholesale redesign of suspensions. Michelin wants 18 inch rims as it's closer to road car tyres. these companies dump a lot of money into F1 so F1 has to listen to their wishes. Letting this change coincide with a simplification of the suspension just makes sense.

Of course doing nothing and leaving everything as is is the cheapest in the short term.



#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:52

Not a bad idea. I'm for it. Since the ride height could be easily adjusted cars would be able to drive in the rain better than now days. 

 

Bonus advantage. Good thinking.



#34 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:54

Who said that?

 

It's just financially convenient to make the 2 coincide.

18 inch rims will require a wholesale redesign of suspensions. Michelin wants 18 inch rims as it's closer to road car tyres. these companies dump a lot of money into F1 so F1 has to listen to their wishes. Letting this change coincide with a simplification of the suspension just makes sense.

Of course doing nothing and leaving everything as is is the cheapest in the short term.

 

 

the article? at least I think it logical, as the fanatics want 18 inch rims on F1 cars... yeah Michelin wanted it but will they be there in 2017.... and will it look like this...

Porsche_RSSpyder_Chassis.jpg

 

and as active suspension could make for higher cornering speed they will reduce tyre width and that will look even more pathetic...


Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 15 April 2014 - 14:56.


#35 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:55

Well overall with simplified aero and other parts, it seems positive to me.  I can't wait to see F1 with proper tyres instead of the idiotic balloon things they bounce around on at the moment.



#36 eronrules

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:57

for me , a more reasonable re-introduction (and cheaper) would be ABS. i don't get why they banned it. it would improve safety and should give us some great outbreaking moves without the fear of making a 50p flat spot that usually ruins races. 

 

and also, while we're at it, can we go back to Steel disc brakes ... let's make braking more interesting ... and take away the  power steering, like Indycar, these drivers are way more fit for this. 

 

p.s yeah yeah i can already hear the arguments against it ...  :p



#37 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 14:57

the article? at least I think it logical, as the fanatics want 18 inch rims on F1 cars... yeah Michelin wanted it but will they be there in 2017.... and will it look like this...

 

 

and as active suspension could make for higher cornering speed they will reduce tyre width and that will look even more pathetic...

 

The article only said "The move is being considered for 2017, and could come in at the same time as a switch to 18-inch tyre rims."

 

Nothing about the ban being lifted as a means to change rim diameter.

 

I don't see what that picture has to do with it, but even that incomplete LMP looks amazing.


Edited by PayasYouRace, 15 April 2014 - 15:00.


#38 eronrules

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:03

Well overall with simplified aero and other parts, it seems positive to me.  I can't wait to see F1 with proper tyres instead of the idiotic balloon things they bounce around on at the moment.

 

you really, honestly believe a F1 team won't spend bucket loads to even find 1 points of DF ... give me a break. nothing won't be simplified. they'll spend millions just to re-design the mirrors so that it produces less drag, or perhaps a tiny winglet to smooth the Airflow just a little.

 

e.g look at the new tiny details on RBR diffuser to keep the flow attached .. i'll bet it took millions just to find those ... 

 

ta_article_1170.jpg

 

 

 

 The small vanes on its underside (red arrow) set up a vortex, or horizontal tornado. In a normal, vertical tornado, the swirl of the air at its upper extreme is fed down to its smallest section where it meets the ground. This smaller section has enough energy to lift cars, houses or anything in its path and throw them out, sometimes miles away. Emulating this, Red Bull's horizontal tornado pulls air through an area that is suffering from potential airflow separation, giving the component that it is working on more consistent downforce.


#39 byrkus

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:07

Perhaps a terrain is being prepared for Citroën to enter in 2017. Like, you know, for a new challenge, after many years of invincibility in WRC, and then WTCC. :drunk: :drunk:

 

Too bad that Sebastien Loeb will be 43 by then. :p

 

/sarcasm off ;)



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#40 ardbeg

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:08

The teams want performance to depend more on the car, less on the driver. Many of the fans want it the other way around. Yes, active suspension will be a "driver equaliser", but on the other hand it will probably also equalising the cars to some extent. Aero at it's current state is so extremely important and it is extremely expensive to cut another tenth that the smallest teams have no way of catching up. The aero development of a F1 car is also useless for normal road cars, specially since the regulations forces the teams to develop non-ideal solutions.

 

I think I am for this suggestion, but I have not made up my mind yet.



#41 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:09

I remember when the active suspension F1 cars held lap records until 2001 when the tyre war began. They were so far ahead of their time. I would have loved for them to have stayed, just to see how fast an F1 could have gone.



#42 ANF

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:11

Formula 1 teams considering making the cars super stable and perfectly balanced in every phase of every corner.

Shove it.



#43 undersquare

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:12

you really, honestly believe a F1 team won't spend bucket loads to even find 1 points of DF ... give me a break. nothing won't be simplified. they'll spend millions just to re-design the mirrors so that it produces less drag, or perhaps a tiny winglet to smooth the Airflow just a little.

 

e.g look at the new tiny details on RBR diffuser to keep the flow attached .. i'll bet it took millions just to find those ... 

 

Yeah I know, all the teams will spend all their money.  It's a fair point but the objective has to be the law of diminishing returns, so that the rich teams can only buy a smaller advantage.

 

Then if they keep changing the regs it gives the small teams the chance to move up the grid with innovation and good design.



#44 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:12

The article only said "The move is being considered for 2017, and could come in at the same time as a switch to 18-inch tyre rims."

 

Nothing about the ban being lifted as a means to change rim diameter.

 

I don't see what that picture has to do with it, but even that incomplete LMP looks amazing.

 

a change to 18 inch rims will always be costly because the suspension and the whole car needs to be altered, if the change to active suspension is to save costs (in the future) they can change the suspension so it can be fitted 18 inch rims, so they can sell they active suspension cost as costs to introduce 18 inch rims= as cost to save suspension costs in the future and have the benefit of the beloved 18 inch rims, but 18 inch rims can accommodate bigger brakes with more stopping power (what is not good in terms of racing) and active suspension allows higher cornering speeds, so we will see thinner tyres with big rims which will look even more hilarious than the naked Porsche LMP2.  like carriage wheels they will look like.


Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 15 April 2014 - 15:13.


#45 MirNyet

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:15

Active ride will vastly simplify the aero on the cars as it negates pitch and roll. This in turn will allow the smaller teams (who will likely buy the systems rather than develop them) to run closer to the front as aero is the big separator at present - and aero is very expensive to develop. There have been huge steps in both electronics and software development since the mid eighties when active ride first appeared and the cost of both implementing and developing the system will be far lower than that of a mechanical suspension and complex aero package. 

 

Active ride is no more a driver aid than a high down force aero package is. It simply adds to the cars performance by optimising the aero at all times. If anything, it will make the cars more of a handful as they are going to be around 2-3 seconds per lap faster with this system. Also, as its a performance leveller - you're going to see closer racing as the cars should be able to run closer as in theory they aren't going to be as aero sensitive as they have been for the past 20 years since this technology was banned.



#46 nosecone

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:17

IMO it is a good thing. Active suspensions are used on road cars in some way. As allways it depends on how the FIA writes the rules. They need to define exactly what the suspension is allowed to do. 

 

The argument with the cost saving is the thing i don't get. F1 introduces ever more fly-away races which cause huge costs. But on the other side they ban tyre warmers... I doubt very strongly that the active suspension can help to save money. Well, maybe it saves a little money but not the millions the teams are forced to pay more due to the new engines. With the new tyres (18-inch) probably beeing introduced then the suspension could make the difference between winning and loosing. So teams will spend a lot of money on it. But if this new technology makes the F1 faster it is a good thing. To go with the same amount of fuel and the same capacity of the ERS faster around a track is what F1 needs

 

However i would enjoy the comeback of another high tech item in F1. F1 needs to be modern and this is a good step in the right direction. F1 needs to be complicated as rocket science.


Edited by nosecone, 15 April 2014 - 15:20.


#47 Ali_G

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:19

Active ride is no more a driver aid than a high down force aero package is. It simply adds to the cars performance by optimising the aero at all times. If anything, it will make the cars more of a handful as they are going to be around 2-3 seconds per lap faster with this system. Also, as its a performance leveller - you're going to see closer racing as the cars should be able to run closer as in theory they aren't going to be as aero sensitive as they have been for the past 20 years since this technology was banned.

 

In theory it should result in closer racing.  Certainly the cars will be a bit less pitch sensitive.

 

People have got to bare in mind the advances that have taken place in passive suspension design over the past 20 years.  I remember reading somewhere that in the mid 00s, passive suspension was practically as good as the Williams active suspension in 1993. 

 

IMO, it is a drivers aid of sorts.  Not on the level of traction control.  However, I'd view semi-auto gearboxes as being every bit of a driver aid as active suspension.



#48 Spillage

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:21

Kind of ambivalent about this. I don't think it's a driver aid in the way that say, TC or ABS are, but I like F1 cars being as hard to drive as possible and I don't think they are too hard to drive in the rain. This won't be cheap either; teams are still going to be spending big on aero.

#49 Maikel0230

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:21

Not sure its really a driver aid, more of an aero aid.

 

It might make sense if there is also an introduction of 18inch wheels and presumably lower profile tyres. Off topic but I seriosly hope they increase the track of the cars with the new wheel size otherwise they will look seriously shyite.

 

It is a driver aid and an aero aid in my book, two birds in one stone. Maybe it is not helping the driver per se every time but it will correct any mistakes the drivers make and that is just wrong. It was scrapped for a good reason that still stands.



#50 Ali_G

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 15:21

F1 needs to be complicated as rocket science.

 

At a guess, F1 cars are probably the most aerodynamically evolved machines on the planet.  In way, F1 goes beyond rocket science in terms of development work.