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Chinese Official: 2014 F1 UBS Chinese Grand Prix


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#651 vista

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:43

Speed traps here. Merc 20 km/h faster than red bull.

 

1 44 Lewis Hamilton 14:58:41 317.7 2 6 Nico Rosberg 14:58:17 317.1 3 77 Valtteri Bottas 14:19:21 316.9 4 11 Sergio Perez 14:19:35 315.5 5 27 Nico Hulkenberg 14:40:44 314.8 6 19 Felipe Massa 14:16:57 314.7 7 99 Adrian Sutil 14:15:38 312.6 8 20 Kevin Magnussen 14:32:56 311.4 9 17 Jules Bianchi 14:14:36 311.1 10 7 Kimi Räikkönen 14:41:20 311.1 11 10 Kamui Kobayashi 14:18:47 310.9 12 25 Jean-Eric Vergne 14:18:50 310.9 13 26 Daniil Kvyat 14:19:20 310.8 14 9 Marcus Ericsson 14:15:29 310.5 15 22 Jenson Button 14:34:35 309.4 16 21 Esteban Gutierrez 14:19:07 308.7 17 14 Fernando Alonso 14:53:47 308.2 18 4 Max Chilton 14:17:03 306.9 19 8 Romain Grosjean 14:38:23 305.4 20 1 Sebastian Vettel 14:40:36 297.7 21 3 Daniel Ricciardo 14:35:00 297.1

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#652 race addicted

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:46

...which is Red Bull's set-up choice, and/or their gearing. We find Kobayashi on 311 km/h.



#653 amppatel

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:47

...which is Red Bull's set-up choice, and/or their gearing. We find Kobayashi on 311 km/h.

 

This is what people are missing. It's RB's choice....



#654 darkkis

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:51

It's also possible that other renault teams compensate lack of power with lower df setup...



#655 amppatel

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:52

It's also possible that other renault teams compensate lack of power with lower df setup...

 

The point is, is that people are saying RB are mighty in the curvy sections - but Merc could be if they changed their set-up.

 Also, even other teams may be just as good as RB if they set their cars up for that.

 

You can only compare using the final lap time...


Edited by amppatel, 19 April 2014 - 09:53.


#656 Bongodrums

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:53

 

Speed traps here. Merc 20 km/h faster than red bull.

 

1 44 Lewis Hamilton 14:58:41 317.7 2 6 Nico Rosberg 14:58:17 317.1 3 77 Valtteri Bottas 14:19:21 316.9 4 11 Sergio Perez 14:19:35 315.5 5 27 Nico Hulkenberg 14:40:44 314.8 6 19 Felipe Massa 14:16:57 314.7 7 99 Adrian Sutil 14:15:38 312.6 8 20 Kevin Magnussen 14:32:56 311.4 9 17 Jules Bianchi 14:14:36 311.1 10 7 Kimi Räikkönen 14:41:20 311.1 11 10 Kamui Kobayashi 14:18:47 310.9 12 25 Jean-Eric Vergne 14:18:50 310.9 13 26 Daniil Kvyat 14:19:20 310.8 14 9 Marcus Ericsson 14:15:29 310.5 15 22 Jenson Button 14:34:35 309.4 16 21 Esteban Gutierrez 14:19:07 308.7 17 14 Fernando Alonso 14:53:47 308.2 18 4 Max Chilton 14:17:03 306.9 19 8 Romain Grosjean 14:38:23 305.4 20 1 Sebastian Vettel 14:40:36 297.7 21 3 Daniel Ricciardo 14:35:00 297.1

 

Vettel and Ric are going to get mugged down the straight after lap 2 with DRS from Ros



#657 GAZF1nut

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:00

Look at the top speed differential between Red Bull and Torro Rosso. Surely Red Bull's top speed deficit isn't all to do with the Renault engine?


Edited by GAZF1nut, 19 April 2014 - 10:00.


#658 HoldenRT

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:24

It varies every race weekend.  I'm not sure what I am supposed to say?

 

Some races RBR are on the bottom, other times they are in the middle.  Yes, it's to do with downforce.  However if the Renault teams used the same downforce as the Merc teams, they would NOT have the same top speeds.

 

That should be pretty obvious by now.  Merc have a great car and a great engine.  The rest have average cars with great engines, and look at how all the Merc teams top speeds are nearly the same.  Yes STR run less downforce than RBR or other Renault teams but they are also 2 seconds off where RBR are in this session.

 

This qualifying doesn't show that Renault teams are down on power, the whole season as a whole does.  No one looks to the speed traps of this qualifying trying to find proof because they already know it before the season started, and before the Chinese GP weekend started.  So in summary, yes extra downforce for RBR and some other teams.. but doesn't change the engine situation as a whole.  If Merc ran huge levels of DF they'd still have the fastest car and engine. They could run STR levels and they'd still have fastest engine.  They could run RBR levels and they'd still have fastest engine.

 

On a semi unrelated note, McLaren is a curious case because it looks like they put on some extra downforce, and yet the still sucked.. and weren't even fast in the corners.  Balance problems and tyre problems at the front.  Meanwhile, Williams had an impressive qualifying.  The Force India vs McLaren vs Williams battle is quite interesting.



#659 alfa1

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:39

What happened with Räikkönen this time? The gap is around what it was in Malaysia, but I thought he was going to make Q3.....

 

 

 

I got the impression that the track gradually got wetter (slower) through the course of Q2, but Kimi didnt do a quick time in the first few minutes like Fernando.

Somebody may confirm this, but I suspect Kimi did his best effort late in Q2, by which time the track conditions were slower.



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#660 Maaarsh

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:05

Look at the top speed differential between Red Bull and Torro Rosso. Surely Red Bull's top speed deficit isn't all to do with the Renault engine?

 

Precisely. Looks at the TR compared to customer mercs, both in speed trap and sector 2 time, and you can clearly see that over half the Red Bull top speed deficit is a setup choice (or maybe Newey has built a high downforce, inefficient car?) rather than engine driven.

 

Red Bull are only nearly achieving parity with the mercs in the twisty sectors by running lots of downforce, They could only match them in the speed trap if they have a significantly more powerful engine (than the mercs have).



#661 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:10

Precisely. Looks at the TR compared to customer mercs, both in speed trap and sector 2 time, and you can clearly see that over half the Red Bull top speed deficit is a setup choice (or maybe Newey has built a high downforce, inefficient car?) rather than engine driven.
 
Red Bull are only nearly achieving parity with the mercs in the twisty sectors by running lots of downforce, They could only match them in the speed trap if they have a significantly more powerful engine (than the mercs have).

Or maybe teams like Toro Rosso and Caterham have less downforce, whether on purpose in order to make up for the lack of engine power, or because they just naturally have less downforce.

Grosjean's speed trap was at the bottom as well.

I don't know what some people are trying to get at with all this. Are people really trying to imply that the Renault isn't actually down on power or something?

#662 Maaarsh

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:19

Or maybe teams like Toro Rosso and Caterham have less downforce, whether on purpose in order to make up for the lack of engine power, or because they just naturally have less downforce.

Grosjean's speed trap was at the bottom as well.

I don't know what some people are trying to get at with all this. Are people really trying to imply that the Renault isn't actually down on power or something?

 

I'm trying to see how much of the 20kph difference is the engine.

 

If you think the TR has crap downforce, how come it came within 4kph of Hulkenberg, and had the same sector 2 time. Unless you think the TR is also a world beater waiting for a better engine, then it does not stack up to claim that the majority of the 20kph difference between merc and RB is the engine. At least half is driven by the RB downforce philosophy.



#663 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:30

then it does not stack up to claim that the majority of the 20kph difference between merc and RB is the engine.

Nobody has said that, though.

Its impossible to figure out exactly since we don't know what sort of aero setup everybody has gone with. And it was wet, which can skew things even more.

#664 Maaarsh

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:36

Nobody has said that, though.

Its impossible to figure out exactly since we don't know what sort of aero setup everybody has gone with. And it was wet, which can skew things even more.

 

Both fair factors to include, but I am just getting a little sick hearing the folk knowledge of the commentators that the RBs are best through the corners and held up solely by their engine. Their feeder team is managing to match Merc customer teams through the corners and run considerably faster than RB down the straights, so I'm happy to take a big hint from that that aero setup choices at RB are contributing a very significant proportion. 

 

Based on what we can see, if the Red Bull had equal horsepower it would still be running 10kph+ slower than the Mercs in the speed trap but be at parity in the twisty sectors.



#665 Goron3

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 19:43

Red Bull are geared incredibly short once again, hence their top speed deficit. It'll be interesting to see them contain Rosberg and maybe Alonso tomorrow; they are mighty onto the back straight but struggle near the end.



#666 race addicted

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 19:47

Is that what we're seeing? With fixed ratios (one joker-opportunity) I would think most of todays deficit is from (mainly) the rear wing, or the rear wing angle.



#667 Maaarsh

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 19:52

Is that what we're seeing? With fixed ratios (one joker-opportunity) I would think most of todays deficit is from (mainly) the rear wing, or the rear wing angle.

 

Indeed, the gear ratios are the same ones they hit 310kph with previously, and there's enough room to manage the same on that straight.

 

They need to make sure no one gets near the back of them in race, because that 20kph deficit (a little less to most cars) is before you add DRS to the mix. They could be half a second behind Nico at the end of the straight if he gets on the back of them through 13.



#668 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 20:38

The only thing to look forward to tomorrow is the fight for third between Daniel and Vettel with maybe Alonso nipping at their heels

 

Or Hulkenburg's progress.  The races are boring this season with such a dominance by one team.



#669 Szoelloe

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 20:39

Or Hulkenburg's progress.  The races are boring this season with such a dominance by one team.

 

lol?



#670 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 20:41

Gearbox issues can mess with your braking and acceleration. So yeah, that could cause Kimi to go off track.

 

Bad downshifts will cause your rear wheels to lockup and unbalance the car.



#671 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 21:01

Both fair factors to include, but I am just getting a little sick hearing the folk knowledge of the commentators that the RBs are best through the corners and held up solely by their engine. Their feeder team is managing to match Merc customer teams through the corners and run considerably faster than RB down the straights, so I'm happy to take a big hint from that that aero setup choices at RB are contributing a very significant proportion. 
 
Based on what we can see, if the Red Bull had equal horsepower it would still be running 10kph+ slower than the Mercs in the speed trap but be at parity in the twisty sectors.

If Red Bull had equal horsepower, they might be 10kph slower on the straights but *faster* through the twisty sectors too, as they might be able to put more downforce on. Or they might feel that with some extra power, they could go a different direction and run less downforce, equalling Mercedes in the twisties still but also matching them on the straights.

#672 Markn93

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 21:43

As a Lewis fan I am very happy there are two cars between him and Nico, and the longer that remains the case, the happier I'll be. 



#673 loki

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 02:37

If Red Bull had equal horsepower, they might be 10kph slower on the straights but *faster* through the twisty sectors too, as they might be able to put more downforce on. Or they might feel that with some extra power, they could go a different direction and run less downforce, equalling Mercedes in the twisties still but also matching them on the straights.

Yep...

 

Fast straights are for fast cars.  Fast corners are for fast drivers.  It's negotiating those twisty bits that win races. The Shanghai circuit is all about the twisty bits.  Riccardo may be able to hang with them in the dry but Vettel still appears to be having issues in the dry. A wet race would go a long way toward improving Vettel's point standing.



#674 jonpollak

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 03:22

All sources point to a dry race.

Jp

#675 Afterburner

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 03:29

Dry race = no fun. We need a bizarre safety car caused by Maldonado playing Minesweeper on his steering wheel while being lapped by Hamilton, causing a massive wreck which takes out Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen, Rosberg, and Button, so we get to see a new first time winner. :p