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#151 Wirra

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 07:31

...As for cars being sold off to O/seas. Yes there are some very good ones on their way out which is sad but has anyone done a stocktake of what's arrived over the last 5/6 years? I think you may be surprised of the quality and quantity of cars that have landed here as well....

 

That's true, but I was at Bathurst to see the Mildren Brabham do the first recorded 100 MPH lap,  I wagged school and jumped the fence at Warwick Farm on the Tasman Friday and stood next to Graham Hill and the 49, I spent a summer living in and driving a Kombi all around Europe watching AJ drive the FW07. That's what those cars mean to me. I know I don't own one but I don't care if they're worth $2000 or $2m.

 

People are having themselves on if they think historic racing in Oz is entertaining. I didn't watch one race at SMSP on the weekend (and that may in part be due to the layout of the circuit) but I stood, looked at, reminisced and listened to the cars for hours.

 

PS. Any bastard who thinks they can take that BT11 out of this country before I'm sprinkled on the rose garden had better look out. .


Edited by Wirra, 05 May 2014 - 07:36.


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#152 GMACKIE

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 07:46

Wirra, if you are really serious about stopping the BT11 from leaving the country, talk to Wendy Muddell at Illawarra Motor Museum.....I am not kidding!



#153 giffo

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:02

PS. Any bastard who thinks they can take that BT11 out of this country before I'm sprinkled on the rose garden had better look out. .

 

That's the passion I hope I have in another 25/30 years. (Assuming I get that far....)

I am too young and was too isolated as a kid to know what was happening way back when so can't say I was ever there at the time......My time is enjoying whats here now and that includes a lot of cars that aren't native to our shores.

Same... But Different... I guess?


Edited by giffo, 05 May 2014 - 08:06.


#154 wilga1

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:13

That's true, but I was at Bathurst to see the Mildren Brabham do the first recorded 100 MPH lap,  I wagged school and jumped the fence at Warwick Farm on the Tasman Friday and stood next to Graham Hill and the 49, I spent a summer living in and driving a Kombi all around Europe watching AJ drive the FW07. That's what those cars mean to me. I know I don't own one but I don't care if they're worth $2000 or $2m.

 

People are having themselves on if they think historic racing in Oz is entertaining. I didn't watch one race at SMSP on the weekend (and that may in part be due to the layout of the circuit) but I stood, looked at, reminisced and listened to the cars for hours.

 

PS. Any bastard who thinks they can take that BT11 out of this country before I'm sprinkled on the rose garden had better look out. .

Talking of beautiful yellow ex Alec Mildren cars, does anyone know what became of the ex Mildren 1967 Brabham BT23 Alfa V8?

 

I recall Spencer Martin driving it at an early Tasman Revival meeting. Has this gone overseas?



#155 Ellis French

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:52

Yes its  going overseas.....Its coming to Tasmania



#156 Wirra

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:46

Not to be buried next to the Lotus 39 I hope... A good example of the point Ray was trying to make.

 

So where were the Brabham Alfa, the Yellow Submarine, the Mildren Waggott and the Franklen/Palliser F5000 on the weekend?


Edited by Wirra, 06 May 2014 - 05:52.


#157 eldougo

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:25

The other side of this Beautiful Brabham BT-11 .

 

UdEC076.jpg



#158 Lola5000

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:19

 

 

PS. Any bastard who thinks they can take that BT11 out of this country before I'm sprinkled on the rose garden had better look out. .

Sorry fact is until the ATO tighten up there act,more and more cars of value or of interest being either race or road cars will go overseas,as is the case with older Ferrari cars. :evil:



#159 Wirra

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:57

Sorry fact is until the ATO tighten up their act,more and more cars of value or of interest being either race or road cars will go overseas,as is the case with older Ferrari cars. :evil:

 

 

Brilliant... it's so obvious... why didn't I think of that... it's the Govenment's fault



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#160 Lola5000

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:03

Wirra ,do you know what is going on re a certain loop hole? 


Edited by Lola5000, 06 May 2014 - 10:36.


#161 Wirra

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:49

Who are you calling a loop hole?

 

Watch out or I'll send James Packer around.



#162 Lola5000

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:54

Who are you calling a loop hole?

 

Watch out or I'll send James Packer around.

Send him around if you like,at one stage my old company was one of his previous companies largest introducer of business,in fact i bought of the family his mothers Bentley Mulsanne S...and a very well maintained car it was.



#163 rms

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 21:58

The Franklen/Mildren F5000 is in Canberra and very close to completion .... Matt has been very fastidious in rebuilding the car to the form that KB drove it ...... even to the extent of the sticker on the windscreen that was placed there by NZ Customs.

 

To then be told "better bring your cheque book with you if you want a gold C of D" .... Matt does not expect a gold C of D to be free, but after spending "an arm and a leg" it should not cost another "arm and leg" to acquire a gold C of D (so long as it is deserving of such).

 

I believe full documentation of past ownership is required for the issue of a C of D ...... even if past owners had neither log book or competed at ANY event .... they just sat the car in a restaurant ...... makes sense ??????

 

Crack testing of suspension components of over 2 litre open wheelers is about to become a requirement ....... do over  2 litre cars have more suspension/wheel failures than under 2 litre cars ?

Or will making it a requirement that ALL open wheelers have a current (say 3 years) crack test certificate upset too many current competitors ??????

 

Erol



#164 GMACKIE

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 22:11

How true, Erol. It would be quite difficult to get a car out of the shed....if you had 'no arms or legs'.

 

What IS the answer, I wonder ?



#165 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 22:22

The Franklen/Mildren F5000 is in Canberra and very close to completion .... Matt has been very fastidious in rebuilding the car to the form that KB drove it ...... even to the extent of the sticker on the windscreen that was placed there by NZ Customs.

 

To then be told "better bring your cheque book with you if you want a gold C of D" .... Matt does not expect a gold C of D to be free, but after spending "an arm and a leg" it should not cost another "arm and leg" to acquire a gold C of D (so long as it is deserving of such).

 

I believe full documentation of past ownership is required for the issue of a C of D ...... even if past owners had neither log book or competed at ANY event .... they just sat the car in a restaurant ...... makes sense ??????

 

Crack testing of suspension components of over 2 litre open wheelers is about to become a requirement ....... do over  2 litre cars have more suspension/wheel failures than under 2 litre cars ?

Or will making it a requirement that ALL open wheelers have a current (say 3 years) crack test certificate upset too many current competitors ??????

 

Erol

It appears the COD has become a nice little earner for CAMS,,, and even worse they still get it wrong!

Crack testing should be basic prep, it is not very expensive and saves expensive crashes. Though many of these open wheelers and sportys have some very expensive to replace components. Especially uprights if they are even available. 

Production based items though are a problem too, the world is full of broken bent and cracked Herald stub axles [uprights] for an example.

Something people should be aware of before they even start.



#166 275 GTB-4

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 22:24

The Franklen/Mildren F5000 is in Canberra and very close to completion .... Matt has been very fastidious in rebuilding the car to the form that KB drove it ...... even to the extent of the sticker on the windscreen that was placed there by NZ Customs.
 
To then be told "better bring your cheque book with you if you want a gold C of D" .... Matt does not expect a gold C of D to be free, but after spending "an arm and a leg" it should not cost another "arm and leg" to acquire a gold C of D (so long as it is deserving of such).
 
I believe full documentation of past ownership is required for the issue of a C of D ...... even if past owners had neither log book or competed at ANY event .... they just sat the car in a restaurant ...... makes sense ??????
 
Crack testing of suspension components of over 2 litre open wheelers is about to become a requirement ....... do over  2 litre cars have more suspension/wheel failures than under 2 litre cars ?
Or will making it a requirement that ALL open wheelers have a current (say 3 years) crack test certificate upset too many current competitors ??????
 
Erol


Just being the Devils Advocaat, in order to race, is it necessary for Matt to hold a copy of a C of D if the CAMS already has one on file and the car is being restored to an agreed period configuration?

[​...whaddya reckon Ray?]

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 06 May 2014 - 22:28.


#167 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 23:36

There won't be one on file because nobody has done anything with the car in the CoD period...

And I reckon the CAMS demand a lot and then charge too much for the work the owner has done to prepare their documentation.

#168 Lola5000

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 00:05

There won't be one on file because nobody has done anything with the car in the CoD period...

And I reckon the CAMS demand a lot and then charge too much for the work the owner has done to prepare their documentation.

What do they charge?



#169 giffo

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 00:15

I don't have a CoD only a FIA HTP and I must say CAMS have been more than accommodating in issuing a permit each and every time I need one to compete while they consider how to deal with these. The last car we CoD'd while pretty big task in getting all the paper work completed it did go thru rather seamlessly. No real complaints here but as always quicker & cheaper is always the first thing on the tip of our tongues.



#170 wilga1

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 01:48

The other side of this Beautiful Brabham BT-11 .

 

UdEC076.jpg

Alec Mildren had two of these Brabhams at the same time.

 

One was lenghtened to fit the Maserati V12.

The other he bought from Bib Stillwell when the V12 wasn't working properly.

 

Which car is this?



#171 RW7

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:01

I don't have a CoD only a FIA HTP and I must say CAMS have been more than accommodating in issuing a permit each and every time I need one to compete while they consider how to deal with these. The last car we CoD'd while pretty big task in getting all the paper work completed it did go thru rather seamlessly. No real complaints here but as always quicker & cheaper is always the first thing on the tip of our tongues.

Hi Giffo. That is good to hear. I have imported and restored a Mallock Supersports MK28V and have full history since it left the factory in 1989. It has an FIA HTP for Appendix K , Class JR, but CAMS have told me it is 2 years too young for a COD.

 

Given that the sports/racing category here is now dominated by LMP3 type cars, I would like to race in Historic and I think that because the category has dramatically moved on in the past 5 years, my car also fits the spirit of historic racing.

 

I hope CAMS will come into line with the FIA - afterall we are part of the world aren't we?



#172 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:52

And I reckon the CAMS demand a lot and then charge too much for the work the owner has done to prepare their documentation.

So what system would you propose with what checks and balances and what would you charge? 



#173 giffo

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:56

RW7

What you are proposing with your car differs somewhat to my situation which your's throws up a whole different set of issues. I'm sure they have been discussed elsewhere. Good luck but I foresee issues for you which is just part of a whole range of issues being looked at currently. I have no current up to date knowledge of how it is going so cannot comment or add anything useful. But from a meeting I attended last year and other information told to me 'for the part I was interested in' it all looked quite rational.
My particular car ran in the 1972 FIA Euro & British F2 Championships (like allot of other cars in Aust so it is not unique) This is also a CAMS accepted historic period which can be looked at as quite different to a USA FB spec'd up to a FIA HTP appendix 'K' chassis, which is also quite different to a HTP vehicle spec which is outside of the current CAMS period classes. There are many pros/cons & for's/against for each which each throw up differing scenarios and then there's the 'Replica' thing. My personal interest is I don't want/need a CoD due to the cars FIA historic providence and the HTP however I would get a CoD if it ends up becoming a requirement.

 

A few friends recently back from driving historic classes in Europe tell me that there are many issues being challenged over there currently with cars and specifications etc. So if half of what I was told is true we (Aust) do not want to go there either so it still may be a while before it is fully settled here.

 

You would be better contacting the officials here for a 'where it's at' statement.

Despite allot of the argument if you take an un-judgmental point of view I don't think our system is as bad as allot make out. I'm not saying I'm pro it and I think it could certainly be easier & better, just that it could be far, far worse.

 

Remember also in both US & Europe there are cars that also don't fit some historic categories and they are regularly called 'track day cars' which of course they all are. These locations are also pooling form huge numbers of people which we don't have.

So getting closer back to the original topic you can see a quite an issue with modifying regulations to suit and getting cars on the tracks. I'm glad I'm not the one trying to formulate a revised set of rules to keep most happy, but we need to trust they they will put forth another document for comment to all like they did with the first discussion paper a year and a bit back.

 

I need to shut up now.

 

Giffo



#174 RW7

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:07

Thanks Giffo. I accept your advice and I certainly have an un-judgmental attitude.

 

One point that I would like to make is that I (like the majority of competitors in historic) am not obsessed with winning. I do however want to have a real race and not run around by myself.

 

That is why I am keen to get into historics where there are so many cars in each class with vastly different performance - virtually insuring that everyone in the field has someone to "play with".

 

When I run with LMP3 cars (which I intend to do) I can see myself having a lonely time at the back.  :well:


Edited by RW7, 07 May 2014 - 03:07.


#175 Lola5000

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:34

Alec Mildren had two of these Brabhams at the same time.

 

One was lenghtened to fit the Maserati V12.

The other he bought from Bib Stillwell when the V12 wasn't working properly.

 

Which car is this?

This is the 1st car from new with Mildren,the other car the Stillwell 1965 Gold Star was also at the meeting in period Brabham team colours (which is wrong) IMO it should be in the Stillwell colours with the yellow nose.



#176 giffo

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:58

One point that I would like to make is that I (like the majority of competitors in historic) am not obsessed with winning. I do however want to have a real race and not run around by myself.

 

Most of us take the same attitude.

Point -  If I ran group 'O' and wanted to win then buy a 1969xxx with an FVA in it (i.e. the best car) and have decent budget and be around 70kg not 100.There's 1st part taken care of. 2nd be a better driver the say Richard Carter (whom have met but I do not know) For most of us it's not going happen given the time he's been driving & competing (forever :cool: ) It doesn't mean we don't drive to ones ability however.

So your correct, it should be about the cars and the driving experience of them and being part of a real race than outright winning. I expect most at the front would feel the same way but are at a different level. It's the midfield I usually have most concerns about and they of me when I travelled east in 2010 (ask Mr Fellowes when he initailly was near me)

 

 

That is why I am keen to get into historics where there are so many cars in each class with vastly different performance - virtually insuring that everyone in the field has someone to "play with".

Yes & No..... Depending on where you live but I think you'll find your place & get someone to play with. In Perth we have Ralts RT4's & FJ's on the track together, it is not without its difficulties but with drivers knowing correct boundaries we manage well & safely. I would not advise it it the east but they have different styles of tracks & different circumstances to deal with.

 

 

 

When I run with LMP3 cars (which I intend to do) I can see myself having a lonely time at the back. 

Maybe but at least you have somewhere to drive your car & I think you'll be surprised as you get to grips with it.

 

The biggest issue I see with what you say is you purchased a "currently' Non Historic class car and want to go play with the historic's.

In time it will get included just maybe not while you want it to be. We have had the same issue over here at differing times. We also regularly have to address ways of handling this issue but the ultimate say here lays with CAMS & the WASCC.

 

Good Luck  :wave:


Edited by giffo, 07 May 2014 - 04:01.


#177 wilga1

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:22

This is the 1st car from new with Mildren,the other car the Stillwell 1965 Gold Star was also at the meeting in period Brabham team colours (which is wrong) IMO it should be in the Stillwell colours with the yellow nose.

You seem very definite on this. How?

Merely the colour does not readily identify what were identical cars.


Edited by wilga1, 07 May 2014 - 08:23.


#178 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 13:05

The Stillwell car was sold immediately after the 1966 Tasman Cup series...

The question about the Maserati V12 is answered by saying that the Stillwell car was purchased because the Maser was a bit of a disaster. Kerry Grant purchased the Stillwell car and Mildren got Britto to weld the back half of the old chassis back on the car that had been cut up for the Maserati engine and KB then took it to Bathurst and set the first 100mph lap in it.

#179 275 GTB-4

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 23:10

RW, you may be illegible (​...whaddya reckon Ray?) for meetings run by other "authorities" such as the AASA...or by invitation...just a thought, whilst waiting for your car to be accepted into an Historic Category  :cool:



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#180 Lola5000

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 23:46

You seem very definite on this. How?

Merely the colour does not readily identify what were identical cars.

Its well known the history of Bib's BT11A.Factory to Bib,Mildren,Grant in NZ,various others ,then a few years ago unrestored it came back to Melbourne,Larner restored it with a new C&G UK engine and now it races in group M with the number #11 on its flanks.

The Mildren car (100mph) car spent 4 years with Mildren,was moved on and has been owned by the current owner for over 20 years.

wilga1,is there another story?

 

ps in about 1966 SV leased? the car for Stewart to drive,I think at Surfers Gold Star round.


Edited by Lola5000, 07 May 2014 - 23:55.


#181 RW7

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 00:28

RW, you may be illegible (​...whaddya reckon Ray?) for meetings run by other "authorities" such as the AASA...or by invitation...just a thought, whilst waiting for your car to be accepted into an Historic Category  :cool:

No worries thanks GTB. It has already been accepted to run with AASA in Queensland and will be accepted "by invitation" at Mallala.



#182 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 04:24

For Stewart at Surfers...

Also for Palmer at Bathurst earlier in the year?

#183 seldo

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 04:46

RW, you may be illegible (​...whaddya reckon Ray?) for meetings run by other "authorities" such as the AASA...or by invitation...just a thought, whilst waiting for your car to be accepted into an Historic Category  :cool:

Apart from being un-readable, he may also be ineligible :)


Edited by seldo, 08 May 2014 - 04:47.


#184 RW7

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:00

I am often unintelligible...  :D



#185 D-Type

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 06:50

I am often unintelligible...  :D

Do you have anything to do with writing CAMS regulations?

 

 

I'll get my coat



#186 RW7

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 06:56

CAMS Scrutineer (2004): "You can't wear that nomex underwear because the seam is split"

 

Me: "But I have a triple layer suit so I don't need to wear underwear"

 

CAMS Scrutineer: "You don't have to wear underwear but if you do wear it you can't wear it"   

 

:drunk:



#187 Lola5000

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:20

For Stewart at Surfers...

Also for Palmer at Bathurst earlier in the year?

missed that one,timed at 159 mph over the flying 1/8 :up:



#188 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:29

CAMS Scrutineer (2004): "You can't wear that nomex underwear because the seam is split"

 

Me: "But I have a triple layer suit so I don't need to wear underwear"

 

CAMS Scrutineer: "You don't have to wear underwear but if you do wear it you can't wear it"   

 

:drunk:

Nothing has changed, that happened at Easter. Not to me!

Though I was told my driving suit was out of date very recently,, at a hillclimb where wearing one was not necesary :confused:

Or the famous one at a Superspring a few years back, the Bond alloy rollcage that had been in the car 15 years did not have a sticker and the competitor was forced to remove it [bolt together] so he could compete on the day.

Another competitor in  a log booked Sports Sedan went home and never brought the car back for the same reason. This is a reason why CAMS has killed ground level motorsport.  

That seems to have gone now thank Christ. though they did check seat belt and fire extinguisher dates at Easter.



#189 Lola5000

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 00:12

And they wonder why people give it the finger and do other NON motor car hobbies. :rolleyes:



#190 DavidI

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:10

Nothing has changed, that happened at Easter. Not to me!

Though I was told my driving suit was out of date very recently,, at a hillclimb where wearing one was not necesary :confused:

Or the famous one at a Superspring a few years back, the Bond alloy rollcage that had been in the car 15 years did not have a sticker and the competitor was forced to remove it [bolt together] so he could compete on the day.

Another competitor in  a log booked Sports Sedan went home and never brought the car back for the same reason. This is a reason why CAMS has killed ground level motorsport.  

That seems to have gone now thank Christ. though they did check seat belt and fire extinguisher dates at Easter.

In a similar vein, there was the CAMS track inspector who was going to refuse certification for Mt Cotton hillclimb because the track wasn't wide enough to allow cars to pass each other.... or the scrutineer who turned up at the same venue and was going to reject 80% of the field because they didn't have roll cages and harnesses (to be fair, he was pretty new and had obviously gained all his experience at circuit races).

I have to be honest, though, for all the griping about CAMS (much of it justified), whenever I worry about how badly they "run" motor racing, I just think back to my time racing bicycles....made motor sport look like an efficient well organised past time by comparison.



#191 Lola5000

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 04:05

Its a joke....all about costs and saving 'em.

 

i help out a friend with a modern high tech factory race car,1st event it goes to ,we go up to the scrutineer area,me pushing the jump start battery trolley ,there more interested in telling me to get that out of the area ,over the white line then looking at the car,then some old guy comes over looking for return carby springs,has NFI what he is looking at,then tells us the race number needs a backing and writes that in the book.......................C/heads. :eek:



#192 wilga1

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:41

For Stewart at Surfers...

Also for Palmer at Bathurst earlier in the year?

Ray, I beg to differ, but the car Jim Palmer drove at Bathurst Easter 1966 was the David McKay Scuderia Veloce BT 11a.

 

Spencer Martin had resigned from the SV team, and they needed a good driver to contest the Gold Star series so this was first try out for Palmer. 

 

There is an interesting story about Palmer you may have heard of.

To contest the Gold Star Palmer needed an Australian licence.

CAMS would not grant this as he only had effective vision out of one eye.

The Bathurst meeting must have been run under an International licence, as NZ had allowed Palmer to race with his vision deficiency.

 

With Palmer not available, McKay sold the Brabham to Bob Jane, and Spencer Martin won the 66 and 67 Gold Stars in it.

 

Stewart DID drive the ex Mildren car at Surfers in August 1966. They had borrowed it from Kerry Grant. 



#193 Lola5000

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:51

Ray, I beg to differ, but the car Jim Palmer drove at Bathurst Easter 1966 was the David McKay Scuderia Veloce BT 11a.

 

 

 

Stewart DID drive the ex Mildren car at Surfers in August 1966. They had borrowed it from Kerry Grant. 

Interesting re the Jim Palmer and the SV car being non ex Stillwell. :up:



#194 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 18:24

That was why I put in the question mark, wilga...

The issue of Palmer's monocular vision was well known and I've posted about that previously. But he also ran at Warwick Farm, perhaps an International permit wasn't required for him to be able to run?

There would have been more behind the McKay sale to Jane. The previous year Shell had fully funded the purchase of the Brabham and the 250LM by Scuderia Veloce, they were keen to see Martin become the Gold Star champion and directed the move to the Jane team. While Scuderia Veloce owned the car, they were to some extent indebted to Shell and would have been under some kind of obligation to make the car available.

#195 wilga1

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 00:14

That was why I put in the question mark, wilga...

The issue of Palmer's monocular vision was well known and I've posted about that previously. But he also ran at Warwick Farm, perhaps an International permit wasn't required for him to be able to run?

There would have been more behind the McKay sale to Jane. The previous year Shell had fully funded the purchase of the Brabham and the 250LM by Scuderia Veloce, they were keen to see Martin become the Gold Star champion and directed the move to the Jane team. While Scuderia Veloce owned the car, they were to some extent indebted to Shell and would have been under some kind of obligation to make the car available.

Ray, interesting that your third paragraph is at odds with David MacKay's own words in his book on Scuderia Veloce.



#196 275 GTB-4

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 13:11

Ray, interesting that your third paragraph is at odds with David MacKay's own words in his book on Scuderia Veloce.


Pages 147-148 :up:



#197 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 16:18

I don't have the book...

What does it say that clashes?

#198 seldo

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 23:18

.....
The issue of Palmer's monocular vision was well known and I've posted about that previously. But he also ran at Warwick Farm, perhaps an International permit wasn't required for him to be able to run?....

Palmer was driving quite legally for a while, but CAMS' introduction of the "monocular vision" rule was a late-rush amendment, and I guess was cobbled-up because someone said "Eek there's a guy racing with defective vision - we'd better stop this"

#199 Lola5000

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:51

From what I read on pages 147/8 nothing about the Stillwell car.



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#200 wilga1

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 05:50

From what I read on pages 147/8 nothing about the Stillwell car.

 

You are obviously missing something...

 

Can you please explain in simple words why pages 147/8 HAD to about the Stillwell car 

 

The quality of posts seems less than ideal.