181 replies to this topic

[halifaxf1fan]

It's bad behaviour of Red Bull to do this... I hope Mclaren is compensated for their loss.

 

Remember that it is Dennis raiding the Red Bull aero cookie jar.  McLaren has no losses!

[Lazy]

I don't see how Fallows could be stopped from working for Red Bull.

As I understand the facts he informed McLaren that he had changed his mind a few days prior to commencing employment with McLaren. As such McLaren cannot enforce a gardening leave clause of their own because Fallows was not yet their employee. Even if he had commenced employment I believe there is a (statutory or common law, can't recall) probation period implied into every UK employment contract that allows either party to walk away with limited notice.

My husband works in finance and has been subject to counter offers from existing employers, and once did change his mind. It is an extremely common occurrence in some industries and I think McLaren are making a proverbial mountain out of a mole hill here in the hope of getting PP earlier. I don't think it will work. Red Bull are a stubborn bunch and even if McLaren can prove inducement to breach I suspect they'd rather just pay out rather than negotiate to lose PP early.

What's to stop McLaren doing the same with PP?

[undersquare]

I don't see how Fallows could be stopped from working for Red Bull.

As I understand the facts he informed McLaren that he had changed his mind a few days prior to commencing employment with McLaren. As such McLaren cannot enforce a gardening leave clause of their own because Fallows was not yet their employee. Even if he had commenced employment I believe there is a (statutory or common law, can't recall) probation period implied into every UK employment contract that allows either party to walk away with limited notice.

My husband works in finance and has been subject to counter offers from existing employers, and once did change his mind. It is an extremely common occurrence in some industries and I think McLaren are making a proverbial mountain out of a mole hill here in the hope of getting PP earlier. I don't think it will work. Red Bull are a stubborn bunch and even if McLaren can prove inducement to breach I suspect they'd rather just pay out rather than negotiate to lose PP early.

Since it's (allegedly) a tort I'd have thought an injunction would be a possibility.

 

I doubt McLaren are relying on employment law, this will be contract law, and Fallows signed one, so I wouldn't rule anything out, personally.

[pup]

I think the key to all this is that Fallows was supposed to have started at McLaren already.  That means two things: one, that he was likely hired long before Prodromou; and two, that McLaren likely had plenty of time to make plans which assumed Fallows would join.  The first point supports the idea that either Fallows did not want to work under Prodromou anymore, or (more likely, imo) that the hole opened at RB by Prodromou's departure made possible a very attractive counter offer by RB.

 

The second point - the important one - is likely why McLaren are pursuing this so vigorously.  When they fired Budkowski, they probably did so under the assumption that Fallows would be joining them soon and so being short-staffed in the aero group wouldn't be too much of a problem for them.  Now, they're looking at an entire year of being short staffed, and as a result, they can surely show significant harm in court.  This is amplified tenfold by the fact that McLaren are currently courting potential title sponsors.  McLaren are out to prove tortious interference by RB.  If they can find the grounds to do so, then this becomes a fairly significant case, since it's no longer about just whether an employee comes or goes. 

Edited by pup, 22 April 2014 - 15:28.

[Maustinsj]

That all makes sense, pup.

[New Britain]

I think the key to all this is that Fallows was supposed to have started at McLaren already.  That means two things: one, that he was likely hired long before Prodromou; and two, that McLaren likely had plenty of time to make plans which assumed Fallows would join.  The first point supports the idea that either Fallows did not want to work under Prodromou anymore, or (more likely, imo) that the hole opened at RB by Prodromou's departure made possible a very attractive counter offer by RB.

 

The second point - the important one - is likely why McLaren are pursuing this so vigorously.  When they fired Budkowski, they probably did so under the assumption that Fallows would be joining them soon and so being short-staffed in the aero group wouldn't be too much of a problem for them.  Now, they're looking at an entire year of being short staffed, and as a result, they can surely show significant harm in court.  This is amplified tenfold by the fact that McLaren are currently courting potential title sponsors.  McLaren are out to prove tortious interference by RB.  If they can find the grounds to do so, then this becomes a fairly significant case, since it's no longer about just whether an employee comes or goes. 

 

My inference has been that Promodrou's garden leave was 12 mos, and Fallows' only 6.

[New Britain]

Remember that it is Dennis raiding the Red Bull aero cookie jar.  McLaren has no losses!

 

IIRC, a few years ago Red Bull poached from McLaren a couple of aerodynamicists whose names were something like...Newey and Promodrou, I think it was.

[MikeV1987]

LOL @ this thread, if the roles we're reversed everyone would STILL be attacking RBR.

 

Haters gonna hate.

[Maustinsj]

*were

[pup]

Since it's (allegedly) a tort I'd have thought an injunction would be a possibility.

 

I doubt McLaren are relying on employment law, this will be contract law, and Fallows signed one, so I wouldn't rule anything out, personally.

 

This is correct.  If McLaren can prove to the court that Red Bull interfered with their contract, then they can ask that RB not be allowed to benefit from their interference; i.e., that they not be allowed to employ Fallows.  Whether this is in conflict with employment law I do not know.  

[pup]

My inference has been that Promodrou's garden leave was 12 mos, and Fallows' only 6.

 

I believe that the 'gardening leave' precedent for engineers was set by the courts rather than it being determined individualy by contract.  But it could be that Fallows was at, or nearing, the end of his contract term, which might have made his gardening leave period shorter.

[Lazy]

I understood that 6 months was the maximum so engineers didn't get too much out of touch.

[Rocket73]

LOL @ this thread, if the roles we're reversed everyone would STILL be attacking RBR.

 

Haters gonna hate.

 Well youhave to admit the CH's comments are pretty low. They were arrogant about the fuel sensor, almost to the point of defaming Gill and they are arrogant about this.

 

They don't answer the phone, CH avoids the critical issue in his comments on Sky on sunday.

 

They are quite easy to dislike.

[New Britain]

I believe that the 'gardening leave' precedent for engineers was set by the courts rather than it being determined individualy by contract.  But it could be that Fallows was at, or nearing, the end of his contract term, which might have made his gardening leave period shorter.

 

The other possibility is that Promodrou's contract expired well after Fallows' did. I see now that Fallows' move was annnounced only in January, and I guess he was due to start end-March, so apparently 3 months' GL. Promodrou's departure was formally announced in Dec '13, and he's scheduled to start at McL in Jan '15.

[halifaxf1fan]

IIRC, a few years ago Red Bull poached from McLaren a couple of aerodynamicists whose names were something like...Newey and Promodrou, I think it was.

 

Seems that Dennis is still hurting to this day over that!  

 

Dennis probably has a case he could win if he sued Fallows but against Red Bull he is just wasting good money on lawyers.  Money that would be better spent on the car.

[Lazy]

Can't say I'm Rons biggest fan but I'm pretty sure he knows what's in the contract and what he aims to get out of the situation. I'm not sure in this case there's much difference between RB and Fallows, even if the case is against Fallows, RB will need to protect him. So which ever way you look at it, you're dealing with RB.

[mclarensmps]

Why is such a big deal being made out of the actual "poaching" part of the staff? That's the regular occurrence in F1, which should be regarded as a moot point. The extraordinary circumstance here is that a physical contract of some sort was signed and not adhered to. Or so, this is what we are being led to believe.

 

In Newey's case with Jaguar, I am not aware that any physical contract was signed. But if there was, then maybe RB have a valid precedent?

[New Britain]

Why is such a big deal being made out of the actual "poaching" part of the staff? That's the regular occurrence in F1, which should be regarded as a moot point. The extraordinary circumstance here is that a physical contract of some sort was signed and not adhered to. Or so, this is what we are being led to believe.

 

In Newey's case with Jaguar, I am not aware that any physical contract was signed. But if there was, then maybe RB have a valid precedent?

 

It was reported at the time that McLaren and Jaguar settled out of court, and the settlement included a public apology from McLaren and Newey.

 

In that instance, however, the gap between the announcement that Newey would be joining Jaguar and the announcement that Newey had changed his mind was only 2 days, so nothing of substance would have transpired in the interim. Jaguar would not have suffered a material loss, only an opportunity cost.

 

The current situation, which has included Budkowski's departure, and 3 months of compromised aero development, could be quite different.

[pdac]

Why is such a big deal being made out of the actual "poaching" part of the staff? That's the regular occurrence in F1, which should be regarded as a moot point. The extraordinary circumstance here is that a physical contract of some sort was signed and not adhered to. Or so, this is what we are being led to believe.

 

In Newey's case with Jaguar, I am not aware that any physical contract was signed. But if there was, then maybe RB have a valid precedent?

 

It's not a case of poaching staff, though. That's about convincing someone who is working somewhere else to give in their notice and work for you as soon as their current contract allows them to. Of course, there is also the possibility of offering the original employer a cash settlement to allow them to buy out of the contract.

 

Here, as far as we are lead to believe, McLaren had a contract in place, so there should have been some kind of notice period served before he could re-join RBR. Having said that, we do not know exactly what the position with RBR was. Perhaps they feel that he never actually terminated his contract with them. Either way, I don't think it's the same as "poaching".

[chumma]

F1Enigma says Boullier has said they have already found a replacement for Fallows......Bell?

[seahawk]

Great. Now they just need to keep Fallows from working for RBR (or any other team) and it is a win-win.

[Jon83]

I hope the two of them (teams) tear strips off one another

[ardbeg]

Well I agree with him - I'm not sure what RBR are supposed to have done wrong?  Poaching staff is nothing new, but any contractual aarrangements are NOT between McLaren & Red Bull so what are McLaren going to sue for?

The question was "I don't really understand, why Red Bull is a part of this. How are they to know what contracts Fallows may or may not have signed?" and I think the answer is pretty obvious. Sure, Fallon can have lied to them and said "no, I'm unemployed, i live on food stamps", he can have said the contract is not yet signed, but it is extremely unlikely that RBR was not aware of his association with McLaren and that they did not query him about details.

In any case, that is what RBR "have to do with it", McLaren want to know exactly what they have to do with it and since they refuse to tell, McLaren takes it to court. It is normal for a company to protect their investments and Fallon was an investment. If not in money, at least in time. Which, as we all know, is money.

[Nicktendo86]

*UPDATE*

McLaren & RBR have agreed to stop legal proceedings

 

Quote

The Red Bull and McLaren Formula 1 teams have agreed to end their legal dispute over aerodynamicist Dan Fallows.

AUTOSPORT revealed earlier this year that McLaren planned to take Red Bull to court for what it felt was enticing Fallows to break a contract he had with the Woking-based team and instead return to Milton Keynes.

The matter dragged on for several weeks, with neither side willing to back down, but progress was made over the Canadian Grand Prix weekend following talks between Red Bull boss Christian Horner and McLaren Group CEO Ron Dennis.

A deal has now been agreed in principle for the legal action to be dropped.

While neither Red Bull nor McLaren will reveal details of the terms of the settlement, AUTOSPORT understands that it did not involve any financial arrangements.

Instead, it may revolve around McLaren getting hold of former Red Bull aerodynamics chief Peter Prodromou earlier than originally expected.

 

 

[Fastcake]

So to the surprise of absolutely no one, this has resulted in McLaren dropping legal action in return for gaining Prodromou early. All as we expected.

[garagetinkerer]

 Well youhave to admit the CH's comments are pretty low. They were arrogant about the fuel sensor, almost to the point of defaming Gill and they are arrogant about this.

 

They don't answer the phone, CH avoids the critical issue in his comments on Sky on sunday.

 

They are quite easy to dislike.

Yes, the other team principal hasn't had his fair share of shady business at all. All those sponsors and personnell he poached from Williams. Sure in knowledge that Sir Frank was above it. Heck, he even made odd remarks about McLaren being able to handle a certain driver better than Williams. That tennis injury of the driver sure must have had stung him Not to mention Spygate, Liegate and other things that went awry under his watch.

 

/Rant over... apologies, if i went overboard

 

In my humble opinion, a lot of people in the paddock are sharks... You may be put off guard by how softly they speak, but never mind their words, their teeth are sharp, very!

[garagetinkerer]

So to the surprise of absolutely no one, this has resulted in McLaren dropping legal action in return for gaining Prodromou early. All as we expected.

McLaren is usually one of the worst when it comes to such transfers. They usually want other teams to release their new employee(s) sooner, but they themselves wouldn't do the courtesy to others. I still remember how they stopped Lowe (i think it was) from joining Williams. So i'm not going to feel very sorry for them if they are paid back in the same coin.

[bogi]

McLaren is usually one of the worst when it comes to such transfers. They usually want other teams to release their new employee(s) sooner, but they themselves wouldn't do the courtesy to others. I still remember how they stopped Lowe (i think it was) from joining Williams. So i'm not going to feel very sorry for them if they are paid back in the same coin.

 

 

Another urban legend around, just in time when we debunked ''McLaren relies too much on the simulator stuff''. Paddy Lowe news broke from nowhere even Whitmarsh was suprised by the news and it was news that he will go to Mercedes not Williams (laters someone wrote there was a deal he will go to Williams because of Toto Wolff).

 

http://www1.skysport...-team-this-year

 

And they made a deal with Mercedes to release him early without any drama.

[mclarensmps]

There are people (including myself), who will believe what they want to believe, to suit their argument. Nobody is immune. Most of us would resort to similar tactics, it's just that we aren't the owners of F1 teams. 

Most of us, not all of us. 

[New Britain]

Yes, the other team principal hasn't had his fair share of shady business at all. All those sponsors and personnell he poached from Williams. Sure in knowledge that Sir Frank was above it. Heck, he even made odd remarks about McLaren being able to handle a certain driver better than Williams. That tennis injury of the driver sure must have had stung him Not to mention Spygate, Liegate and other things that went awry under his watch.

 

/Rant over... apologies, if i went overboard

 

In my humble opinion, a lot of people in the paddock are sharks... You may be put off guard by how softly they speak, but never mind their words, their teeth are sharp, very!

 

You can think what you like, but there has been for many years and remains today a strong bond of friendship and respect between Frank and Ron. If each of them has no problem with what the other has done to him, what opinions the rest of us may have don't really matter.

 

 

Edited by New Britain, 09 June 2014 - 22:32.

[garagetinkerer]

Look it up. There are many instances of McLaren making personnel tend to their gardens. I'd agree that in case of Mercedes, they made an exception, but that may have something to do with Mercedes being their engine supplier, no?

 

Another urban legend around, just in time when we debunked ''McLaren relies too much on the simulator stuff''. Paddy Lowe news broke from nowhere even Whitmarsh was suprised by the news and it was news that he will go to Mercedes not Williams (laters someone wrote there was a deal he will go to Williams because of Toto Wolff).

 

http://www1.skysport...-team-this-year

 

And they made a deal with Mercedes to release him early without any drama.

[garagetinkerer]

You can think what you like, but there has been for many years and remains today a strong bond of friendship and respect between Frank and Ron. If each of them has no problem with what the other has done to him, what opinions the rest of us may have don't really matter.

Hmm... I do know that Sir Frank doesn't exactly dissuade Dennis from doing what he does... I also do know that they have a fair bit of respect for each other. Then again, i do respect one more than the other and not without reason. My reasons may not appeal to you, and that i could respect and agree with, but that is how it usually is. It may just be that i may not know as many unsavoury details about Sir Frank when he was at helm of the team along with Head. Could be anything, but so far what i have seen/ read, it makes me lean in a certain direction. Do feel free to pm me and we could discuss things away.

 

i have said a fair few times in some other threads though, that Dennis does look after his employees... but you know, just as there's light, there's darkness and so on and on. Speaking only about one facet of a coin is the same as missing the other half. In this case we were discussing McLaren fighting for a potential employee to join sooner... and i have seen them stop such transfers till the very last day at times..