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Vettel's problems so far this season. [Re-titled]


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#1 Spillage

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:40

Now, I'm aware that we already have a Vettel v Ricciardo thread, so if any mod disapproves of my starting this then I apologise and feel free to move/close this one. However, I think that there's room for a separate discussion to be had about the reigning World Champion's problems in the first four races of the season. 

 

Firstly, there's certainly a problem. Okay, Australia was a write-off and Vettel drove a strong race in Malaysia, but in the past two races we've seen Vettel outpaced by his new teammate. Don't get me wrong, Ricciardo looks well worth the seat, but Vettel just isn't on the form he displayed last season, cooking his tyres behind Alonso today particularly uncharacteristic.

 

So what's the problem and how is it fixed? There's no way we can know for sure, of course, but could it be that the lack of EBD is hurting him at the moment? We saw him struggle a little at the start of 2012 when I believe RB were having trouble perfecting the system, and I've seen several articles/commentators saying that handling the EBD through the slow corners was a particular strength. But then, Vettel was a racewinner several times in 2008-9, without running any EBD. Horner mentions problems with the turn-in which may be hurting Vettel. What do you think of that?

 

Or could it be time out of the car that is an issue? He certainly didn't get much pre-season testing and in the last test at Bahrain I believe it was Ricciardo, rather than Vettel, who ran for Red Bull. But then, with the birth of his daughter in the off-season could it be that Vettel's taking some less time and the simulator and that it is this that is hurting him?

 

Anyway, like I say, sorry if the mods want to close this down, but I think there's scope here for a detailed discussion about the precise nature of Vettel's problems this season  :)


Edited by Spillage, 20 April 2014 - 18:42.


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#2 Frankbullitt

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 18:54

I think he is still getting used to the lack of DF at the back, and he seems to be struggling a little bit with the braking system as well on entry to the corner.

 

At the minute Daniel seems to be more used to it because he never had the EBD like Vettel had in previous years, so the transition for him is smoother.



#3 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:01

There's no way we can know for sure, of course, but could it be that the lack of EBD is hurting him at the moment? We saw him struggle a little at the start of 2012 when I believe RB were having trouble perfecting the system, and I've seen several articles/commentators saying that handling the EBD through the slow corners was a particular strength. But then, Vettel was a racewinner several times in 2008-9, without running any EBD.

It could be that the cars with an exhaust blown diffuser had different strengths and limitations from the cars used this year, and that Vettel's own strengths and limitations were more suited to those cars than they are to the ones we have now. But like you said, he was impressing people long before he got hold of a Red Bull car that made significant use of the exhaust blown diffuser, so that can't be the only explanation.
 

Horner mentions problems with the turn-in which may be hurting Vettel. What do you think of that?

Horner isn't exactly known for being Mr. Truthful, but it'd be silly to discount his comments. It raises the question what it is that is making Vettel struggle with turning the car? Could it be related to the new braking systems?
 

Or could it be time out of the car that is an issue? He certainly didn't get much pre-season testing and in the last test at Bahrain I believe it was Ricciardo, rather than Vettel, who ran for Red Bull. But then, with the birth of his daughter in the off-season could it be that Vettel's taking some less time and the simulator and that it is this that is hurting him?

I doubt it. It might have mattered in Australia, but four races into the season? I don't think so: that's almost a quarter of the season already done.

Edited by Nonesuch, 20 April 2014 - 19:02.


#4 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:03

Some drivers tend to impress in the mediocre machinery, only to fail to deliver when given a top ride.  There are too many examples to count.  Other drivers seem to turn on when they have the winning machinery, and crush their competent teammates that previously seemed to almost be on par with them.  Vettel definitely belongs to the second group.  I think we wouldn't have this thread if Red Bull pulled a Mercedes this year, EBD or not.



#5 Spillage

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:06

I think he is still getting used to the lack of DF at the back, and he seems to be struggling a little bit with the braking system as well on entry to the corner.

 

At the minute Daniel seems to be more used to it because he never had the EBD like Vettel had in previous years, so the transition for him is smoother.

Certainly could be. I remember in the middle of 2007 both Alonso and Raikkonen were struggling relative to their new teammates, and one of the excuses given was that neither was used to running on Bridgestone tyres; Massa, meanwhile, had of course been at Ferrari in 2006 and Hamilton, making his debut, had nothing to 'unlearn'. Whether that was the case or not is debatable, but sure enough towards the end of the season Alonso and Raikkonen just started to gain the upper hand. Maybe we'll see the same thing here.



#6 MikeV1987

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:16

It's safe to say he is under the most pressure among all the drivers, I think the unreliability and the lack of pace in the RB10 has killed a lot of his confidence. If history is anything to go by, he'll be much stronger in the second half compared to the first half of the season.



#7 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 19:17

This turned into a driver thread with a rehash of Webber vs Vettel again and most of it had to be removed. The opening post is very clear, it is putting forward possible reasons of why Vettel problems so far this season, please read the opening post and reply to that or another post based on what the topic is. This not a Vettel vs anyone else thread.



#8 Frankbullitt

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:37

I would also expect Vettel to get on top of it sooner rather than later, getting asked to let your team mate by can't be much fun mentally for a 4 time WC.



#9 TheNecromancer

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:42

His biggest problem is that hes not capable of driving a not so fast car. He seemed fine with a slow car in his early years but apparently the last five years with a supreme fast Redbull vehicle has significantly hindered his ability to adapt to rough circumstances. Hes so used to drive a car that is by far the best in F1, and at this age its not quite optimistic how he can cope with a slow vehicle. Even Riccardo is so much better driving a slower car compared to Vettel. Now you see how Vettel's last 5 years has in fact made it difficult for him to join the legendary list, hes at the bottom line top 20 all time list and may easily fall out if Hamilton, Rosberg and Riccardo outplay him for the next few years. 4 straight WDCs is something Jenson Button could achieve as well if Maclaren's vehicles were as competitive as Redbulls.



#10 baddog

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:45

He is fine, he has had many technical issues, and the car/engine package is nowhere, and he has hardly been languishing mid-pack as we have seen others do when it goes to custard. Sure he isnt having the best patch ever but its a blip.



#11 jrwb6e

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:47

Newey is such a creative, outside-the-box engineer who knows what he'll come up with to replace the rear downforce lost from EBD?  Until that happens, Vettel has to cope with a car that takes skill to drive as he's been spoiled too many seasons with EBD.



#12 kraduk

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:51

Maybe its a simple as Daniel is just better, time will tell  :drunk:



#13 Nitropower

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:56

He just doesn't have the best car around anymore. He is aware and he looks quite uncomfortable and fed up.

Even if Red Bull still have potentially the best car of the grid he looks to have his mind somewhere else. If Renault had produced a good engine Red Bull would still have the best racing car in terms of mechanical grip and aero downforce but the gap to the Mercedes PU his humonguous and Vettel knows it. Also the harder tires hurt him while they benefit Mercedes. He's simply down while Daniel is the new kid and has won nothing so far so he's very motivated.

Edited by Nitropower, 20 April 2014 - 20:59.


#14 Spoch

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 20:57

He has a faster teammate?

#15 joshb

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 21:26

He's only 9 points ahead of his teammate who is driving well?

Nice crisis to have



#16 Maaarsh

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 21:30

Last season he was in a formula where pressing the accelerator gave you extra downforce, and now he's in a formula where it gives you wheelspin.

 

 

(Posting this again as the mod accidentally deleted it despite it clearly fitting his definition of the purpose of this thread, and not referencing any other driver directly or indirectly).



#17 northanmonkee2

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 21:32

daniel is better suited to the car as it is now , reduced rear downforce is really comprimising sebastians driving style ,at his best his car always had a planted rear end 

unless newey can work his magic fairly soon ,cant see things changing much .maybe seb needs to go back to how he drove  the torro rosso 



#18 Tommay

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 21:34

Didn't mean to post this

Edited by Tommay, 20 April 2014 - 21:42.


#19 Tommay

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 21:42

In my opinion I think vettel is not an 'instinct' driver (I don't mean this In a bad way). By that I think he is a generation of computer and simulators and the EBD was great for that. For the news cars you get on the power when you feel you have the grip, you hear them saying they have to wait and wait to put the full power down.

With EBD you could not feel the grip because it didn't exist till you got the power down then it would just spike all of a sudden, you had to figure out if you have enough grip + what you would get when have the EBD effect. Vettel would do so much work outside of the car, and I think he could calcualte better then any driver on the grid how much grip he had, even it didn't exist. Instinctive drivers would struggle more with this as they need to feel that grip and this is why vettel was so much in front when the EBD was at its best.

Ps: I'm not saying Vettel is an unnatural drivers or in anyway flaming him, I'm just saying my opinion on his driving style and hence why It works so well 2010-2013

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#20 cornermarker

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 22:46

Winning a championship doesn't necessarily mean you're a better driver than all those who didn't win it.  So seeing Ricciardo beat him shouldn't necessarily come as a surprise.  The most likely explanation seems to me to be that Ricciardo, though less experienced, simply beat him on merit, rather than because of some problem Vettel is having.

 

What we know about Vettel is that when the rear of the car is absolutely planted, he can beat Webber in the same car (early 2012 the rear end wasn't planted, and Webber was beating him).  Whether he could or should be beating anyone else in the same or any other set of circumstances is just guesswork.  It's entirely possible that Ricciardo is just a better driver. Of course, it's far too early to come to that conclusion.

 

Some are suggesting that Vettel needs time adjusting to this car.  The car was developed more with his input than with that of Ricciardo, and the latter is the one who it should feel foreign to.  Perhaps next season Ricciardo will be even stronger when compared to his teammate, in a car he feels even more at home in (see how Lewis feels about this year's Mercedes compared to the previous one). 

 

Time will tell.



#21 Lemans

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 23:20

Daniel.



#22 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 23:38

In this case, he is the problem. No one is talking about leading the WDC table right now, of course.

 

He should be, with clearly the second-best car that RedBull is without doubt, no. 3 in WDC standings with 45 or 42 points, though.

 

I guess it is kinda difficult, isn't it.

 

And we're not even talking about becoming runner-up in the WDC standings with only the third-best car (e.g. 2010, 2012) or being no.3 in WDC standings with even only the third- or fourth-best car right now, meaning after Shanghai 2014.

 

My scepticism towards Vettel (which quite a few people here don't seem to take well) is based on those kinda things which are above mentioned. It's not subjective silliness.



#23 blowndiffuser

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 23:49

I don't think it's merely a matter of 'he's only good in a fast car'. F1 cars are incredibly complex machines to drive. Turning on and managing the tyres, the braking feel, turn-in response etc. and don't forget that it only takes a slight bit of difference between drivers to give one a 2/10 edge over another. That's why Vettel said his battle with Webber was closer than it looked from the outside. This year, the cars are so different to drive with the new engines, brake-by-wire, etc, that the jump is certainly bigger than it was with the loss of the EBD. Ricciardo seems to be doing a better job adapting to the characteristics of the car at the moment (and don't forget the car is being developed each race), and Vettel has not yet found his way of maximizing the car's performance. Don't forget that it's not easy to change one's driving style which is such a reflexive thing.

That said, Vettel's problems may not be as severe as people make them out to be. He did do well in Malaysia (even before Ric had car trouble) and in China he was ok on the options but couldn't find a way to make the primes work (ambient temperatures in Shanghai perhaps). Let's see if he and his engineers can figure out how to turn things around by Barcelona.


Edited by blowndiffuser, 20 April 2014 - 23:53.


#24 SR388

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 00:30

Could someone let me know what vettel's driving style is? For instance we know that Lewis is an extremely late breaker so he can get the most out of every straight and optimize tire temp for increased grip.

Are there certain tendencies with this car that hurts Vettel? I suppose Vettel likes the rear of the car to be planted, as that was one of the great benefits of the blown diffuser.

Anyone got some ideas?

#25 grichka

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 00:37

It's the tires mainly not EBD as Horner and Vettel mentioned. He was competitive on soft during first stint in China, quite comfortably keeping Alonso, Ric and Rosberg behind. Once he switched to mediums he droped one second per lap(same happened in Bahrain) like often did Massa or Webber in previous seasons. He was also very competitive in all wet sessions in Malysia and China(except Q3) being actually the only one driver to trouble Hamilton. This car is still easy to drive compared to most of the grid. He drove non EBD cars in past very well so I don't belive it's main factor.



#26 HeadFirst

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:40

Fatherhood has perhaps negatively impacted his performance.



#27 Thomas99

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:50

I think he is still getting used to the lack of DF at the back, and he seems to be struggling a little bit with the braking system as well on entry to the corner.

 

At the minute Daniel seems to be more used to it because he never had the EBD like Vettel had in previous years, so the transition for him is smoother.

 

Toro Rosso had an EBD.

 

I would say for Daniel the total downforce of this  years car is similar to what he experienced at Toro Rosso so it has made the whole transition period far easier for him.



#28 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:55

Are there certain tendencies with this car that hurts Vettel? I suppose Vettel likes the rear of the car to be planted, as that was one of the great benefits of the blown diffuser.
 

 

 

I don't think so.

 

Vettel's style is very similar to Michael Schumacher AFAIK.  Likes the rear of the car a little loose so he can point the front of the car into the turn as he wants it, when he wants it.  Vettel is not super great if the car has a lot of understeer I think.  EBD car he could throw the car hard into the corner very late, trusting the grippy front would stick going into the corner and using the high downforce of the RBR in the middle of the corner, then plant the gas very early trusting that the EBD would stick the rear on the way out of the corner.

 

Ricciardio is quite smooth, more similar to Button.  His style is not as aggressive at Vettel I think.

 

Clearly the car is not 100% suited to Vettel's driving style.  Does this mean the 4xWDC is not an expert driver? That is absurd.  He is still a much better driver than most the posters on this board who say he is "overrated" !!!



#29 HamiltonFanboy

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:42

His car and a poor team-mate made him look far better than he ever was. Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen and Raikkonen all had the same luxury but for shorter periods of time. That's not to say he's a bad driver, far from it, he is a very very good driver but driving a Newey god mobile for 4 years will give you some bad habits when it comes to a new season with a harsh reduction of downforce and a game team-mate with something to prove. I still think he will beat Ricciardo over a season but if he doesn't then his reputation will be all but destroyed.



#30 Brazzers

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:49

Neweymobile flattered victim Number 3 or maybe 4.



#31 Zoetrope

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:07

I read the title "Valtteri's problems so far.." and thought oh god, not again  :p



#32 AvranaKern

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:13

I see a Schumacher pattern here. Rather than the car/driver chemistry problem, I blame Vettel's demotivation because of (lack of) the competitiveness of the car. I just cannot think he gives 100% when his car is not up to speed, not on purpose, but subconsciously. When and if he feels the car is ready to fight for wins, he will unleash himself.



#33 Thomas99

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:33

He's only 9 points ahead of his teammate who is driving well?

Nice crisis to have

 

The points gap is explained by the fact Daniel has through no fault of his own only finished 2 out of 4 races while Sebastian has finished 3 out of 4. That has nothing to do with driving.



#34 baddog

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:26

The points gap is explained by the fact Daniel has through no fault of his own only finished 2 out of 4 races while Sebastian has finished 3 out of 4. That has nothing to do with driving.

 

So Vettels car issues are irrelevant, and Daniel's are relevant?



#35 krea

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:30

It's interesting to know what's the difference between Malaysia and Bahrain/China.

He was the only who came even close to Mercedes for some time in Malaysia. 



#36 BMW4life

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:48

Certainly could be. I remember in the middle of 2007 both Alonso and Raikkonen were struggling relative to their new teammates, and one of the excuses given was that neither was used to running on Bridgestone tyres; Massa, meanwhile, had of course been at Ferrari in 2006 and Hamilton, making his debut, had nothing to 'unlearn'. Whether that was the case or not is debatable, but sure enough towards the end of the season Alonso and Raikkonen just started to gain the upper hand. Maybe we'll see the same thing here.


Neither raikkonen or Alonso struggled against their team mates. It's just that their teammates were their equals. Time has has shown this to be true.

Kimi getting beaten Massa-style should erase any doubts.

We should not discount Vettel's achievements. We saw some performances, especially in qualifying, that left us scratching our heads. On the other hand, I saw vettel struggle against Sebastian Bourdais at Torro Rosso in 2007, until they completely revised the car 5 races in. He never looked back.

I'm thinking his car just doesn't suit his strengths.

#37 Tommay

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:56

So Vettels car issues are irrelevant, and Daniel's are relevant?


No I'm pretty sure he is saying Riccardo has had mte mechanical failures, both of which we know would of been pretty high scoring points to overhaul that 9 deficit, even if it was just one of those races to make it equal in mechanical failures

#38 maverick69

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:58

I think it's the same phenomenon as Mansell in the Active Ride Williams. Nigel was often well over a second quicker than Patrese (sp?) because he was so in tune with the liberties he could take....... And there is no way that Nigel had a latent speed advantage of that magnitude in "normal" conditions. No way.

So. As has been alluded to - Seb needs to unlearn..... Then relearn.

It's gonna be fascinating to watch......

#39 Jon83

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:03

I think this is being over-exaggerated (same as Kimi's start to the season)



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#40 Goron3

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:05

So Vettels car issues are irrelevant, and Daniel's are relevant?

He's talking about Daniel's mechanical issues/DSQ, not his pace and speed with these cars.

 

The point of the thread is to discuss where Seb is struggling versus Daniel to get the most out of the car, which Christian Horner explained very nicely for everyone yesterday on the BBC.



#41 Massa_f1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:07

It's the tires mainly not EBD as Horner and Vettel mentioned. He was competitive on soft during first stint in China, quite comfortably keeping Alonso, Ric and Rosberg behind. Once he switched to mediums he droped one second per lap(same happened in Bahrain) like often did Massa or Webber in previous seasons. He was also very competitive in all wet sessions in Malysia and China(except Q3) being actually the only one driver to trouble Hamilton. This car is still easy to drive compared to most of the grid. He drove non EBD cars in past very well so I don't belive it's main factor.

 

 

Exactly. if you want to blame his slump on EBD then fair enough it will only make you look foolish in years to come.

 

How easy people forget that Vettel won with ease at Monza In 2008 before even joining Red Bull. How quickly people forget when he first stepped in the BMW as a test driver he was instantly quick, and quicker than many of the main drivers.

 

He will be back, and when he is I am going to enjoy revisiting some of the negative things people have been saying about him over the past few months.



#42 Hamttel

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:15

Hello everybody, this is my first post and I´m glad to be sharing opinions with all of us guys!  :wave:

 

First of all sorry about my english but I´m not native! 

 

I have a point seems strange to me: has anyone noticed that Seb is gasping everytime he talks on the radio (he seems destroyed) while the others seems to be ok? That,s something could be relative to his physical condition and Imo this could be a point!

 

Also you can notice that on the soft tyres and full fuel he has been on Malaysia, Bahrein and Shangai fastest than RIC. I have not the data know but I use to follow the live timming and that´s what I rememeber from those races.


Edited by Hamttel, 21 April 2014 - 11:17.


#43 Jon83

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:17

Hello everybody, this is my first post and I´m glad to be sharing opinions with all of us guys!  :wave:

 

First of all sorry about my english but I´m not native! 

 

I have a point seems strange to me: has anyone noticed that Seb is gasping everytime he talks on the radio while the others seems to be ok? That,s something could be relative to his physical condition and Imo this could be a point!

 

Also you can notice that on the soft tyres and full fuel he has been on Malaysia, Bahrein and Shangai fastest than RIC. I have not the data know but I use to follow the live timming and that´s what I rememeber from those races.

 

Hello Hamttel,

 

With regard to your first point, I don't think there is any problem with Seb's conditioning. In fact, I think he sounds as calm as anyone over the radio and even if he didn't, I don't see it being a reflection on his conditioning.
 


Edited by Jon83, 21 April 2014 - 11:18.


#44 Diablobb81

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:36


Also you can notice that on the soft tyres and full fuel he has been on Malaysia, Bahrein and Shangai fastest than RIC. I have not the data know but I use to follow the live timming and that´s what I rememeber from those races.

 

Here is a good site :

http://en.mclarenf-1...espeed=noscript

 

There is a saying in German : those believed dead live longer.

 

If he finds a setup to his liking he will be back.


Edited by Diablobb81, 21 April 2014 - 11:37.


#45 OneAndOnly

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:57

I think this is being over-exaggerated (same as Kimi's start to the season)

Agree. It's just start of the season with completely new rules. And Daniel is no rookie either.



#46 tghik

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:59

Exactly. if you want to blame his slump on EBD then fair enough it will only make you look foolish in years to come.

 

How easy people forget that Vettel won with ease at Monza In 2008 before even joining Red Bull. How quickly people forget when he first stepped in the BMW as a test driver he was instantly quick, and quicker than many of the main drivers.

 

He will be back, and when he is I am going to enjoy revisiting some of the negative things people have been saying about him over the past few months.

Vettel fanboys forget that STR had weight distribution that favoured wet driving, even his team mate was going better. And to not even mention that we had many strange bad weather wins in the history of F1. If he won on dry. that would be a different story ...

Secondly, he was not that quick when he started in BMW, he spun in the first race ...and Let's not forget that BMW had a chance to replace one of their drivers with Vettel, but they cose not to ... something they did with Villeneuve. See, fanboys always bring the stats out of context that serve their agenda



#47 Hamttel

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:06

Here is a good site :

http://en.mclarenf-1...espeed=noscript

 

There is a saying in German : those believed dead live longer.

 

If he finds a setup to his liking he will be back.

 

Thanks mate! ;)

 

That´s what I said, VET was faster on the softs with full fuel. 



#48 Jon83

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:16

Vettel fanboys forget that STR had weight distribution that favoured wet driving, even his team mate was going better. And to not even mention that we had many strange bad weather wins in the history of F1. If he won on dry. that would be a different story ...

Secondly, he was not that quick when he started in BMW, he spun in the first race ...and Let's not forget that BMW had a chance to replace one of their drivers with Vettel, but they cose not to ... something they did with Villeneuve. See, fanboys always bring the stats out of context that serve their agenda

 

I think you're trying to devalue what was a fantastic performance at Monza in 2008.

 

Perhaps you too have an agenda?



#49 krea

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:26

Starting a post with "Vettel fanboys" isn't the best way to sell an own opinion.

But, yeah, the entire post is rewriting history. Everyone called Vettel's victory in 2008 a masterpiece after the race.

#50 1Devil1

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:28

I think you're trying to devalue what was a fantastic performance at Monza in 2008.

 

Perhaps you too have an agenda?

 

Hardcore Alonso fan, Sebastian proved multiple times he is the next big thing, before having the EBD on his side, Monza 2008, nearly prevent the WDC for Lewis in 2008 in the wet, he had one chance to win a race and he just grabbed it without a problem, I am disappointed with him right now too, but two races, proves nothing, when you have success on the other side. I always thought there was complex since the day he started to be successful, because after 2007 it was foreseen by fans it would be Alonso and Hamilton which would dominating the F1 for years, we had two camps, but it was Vettel who spoiled the party big time, by grabbing all this titles. I just have to look what posters, questioning his legacy and I all know what agenda they have.


Edited by 1Devil1, 21 April 2014 - 12:29.