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McLaren MP4-29- Part II


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#1201 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 13:09

Possibly, but that last stint was impressive by anybody except Merc standards. I think it shows (looks in thesaurus for alternative to "potential") and I'm sure the team will be going through the data to see which combination of factors made that pace possible.

The pace was flattered by circumstances, as Rinehart said.

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#1202 Lazy

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 13:53

The pace was flattered by circumstances, as Rinehart said.

Massa, with a brand new set of tyres which he only had to run for a few laps at the end, managed only 4 tenths quicker in clear air than JB averaged throughout the whole stint. 

 

That stint was impressive pace, especially considering how many laps he did with that set of tyres.



#1203 Nicktendo86

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:15

So, with the Dan Fallows legal stuff sorted it looks like PP will start work at McLaren early. Obviously far too late to have any real impact in this years car, but hopefully can make a start on 2015?

#1204 Waffle

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:16

The pace was flattered by circumstances, as Rinehart said.

 

No it wasn't:

 

http://forums.autosp...t-ii/?p=6752359


Edited by Waffle, 09 June 2014 - 15:40.


#1205 Owen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:34

"It is now likely, however, that as part of the Fallows settlement Prodromou could start with McLaren later this year."
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114371

#1206 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:52

No it wasn't:
 
http://forums.autosp...t-ii/?p=6752359

"Would have gotten 7th without retirements."

I suspect if the Ferrari didn't have a powerplant disadvantage to Force India, Alonso could have also gotten by Hulkenberg and been out of reach for Button.

It was good pace, but we did not see the full picture whatsoever.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 June 2014 - 15:55.


#1207 Rocket73

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:09

Massa, with a brand new set of tyres which he only had to run for a few laps at the end, managed only 4 tenths quicker in clear air than JB averaged throughout the whole stint. 

 

That stint was impressive pace, especially considering how many laps he did with that set of tyres.

 

So how can this happen that we suddenly get some serious pace? Track temp was nearly 50. Something to do with the relatively high DF set up and track evo? 



#1208 Rocket73

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:11

"It is now likely, however, that as part of the Fallows settlement Prodromou could start with McLaren later this year."
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114371

 

Yes! In time for the new car.



#1209 Lazy

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:19

So how can this happen that we suddenly get some serious pace? Track temp was nearly 50. Something to do with the relatively high DF set up and track evo? 

I think the team will be working hard to work that out right now  :)



#1210 damager21

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:19

Button's overtaking moment in the race.

 



#1211 Force Ten

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:42

"Would have gotten 7th without retirements."

I suspect if the Ferrari didn't have a powerplant disadvantage to Force India, Alonso could have also gotten by Hulkenberg and been out of reach for Button.

It was good pace, but we did not see the full picture whatsoever.

And you know what? If Button had the car with the aerodynamics of Red Bull and engin implementation of Mercedes, he would be leading the championship as we speak!



#1212 ATM

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 18:46

Yep, that's one straightforward point. Everyone has its vulnerable spots. McLaren's is with its aero department, no need to be ashamed that we beat others who have issues of their own too. 



#1213 Mc_Silver

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:07

"Would have gotten 7th without retirements."

I suspect if the Ferrari didn't have a powerplant disadvantage to Force India, Alonso could have also gotten by Hulkenberg and been out of reach for Button.

It was good pace, but we did not see the full picture whatsoever.

 

I suspect if the McLaren didn't have a downforce disadvantage to Ferrari...



#1214 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:43

And you know what? If Button had the car with the aerodynamics of Red Bull and engin implementation of Mercedes, he would be leading the championship as we speak!

You're misunderstanding the context of the post, which is 'how much pace was there?'.

#1215 Force Ten

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:26

You're misunderstanding the context of the post, which is 'how much pace was there?'.

The context is "how much pace IS there" not "how much pace WOULD be there if my favourite driver's car would be better by factor of x" so yeah, I think I got the context understood to a T.



#1216 Waffle

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:24

You're misunderstanding the context of the post, which is 'how much pace was there?'.

 

Sorry, but I'm afraid it's you that's misunderstanding the context.  Rinehart said that he thought they wouldn't be point scorers on merit.  I pointed out that even without retirements Button would have been 7th, so I didn't understand why he was saying that.  You replied to my post.

 

There was a quite separate discussion about pace, and I think you've conflated the two:

 

http://forums.autosp...t-ii/?p=6752324



#1217 WitnessX

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:57

The pace in Canada is interesting, however the car is going to change and the pace In Spielberg and and more importantly at Silverstone (with the major upgrade) will be the key ones to analyse. 



#1218 ATM

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:30

Well, Austria will be something new for everybody (except RBR, maybe), so we might yet hope for some fluke from the competition, together with an inspired set-up from our side, and continue the upward trend.

 

But in Silverstone, that's gonna hurt like hell, unless the guys come up with a really good upgrade. 



#1219 Dalton007

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:54

Austria might suit us. Just looked at the youtube video, it's not a forgiving track and Jenson rarely makes mistakes so maybe we can get a top 6 on merit.



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#1220 teejay

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:24

Its fundamentally Canada V2 - so will need some luck for a repeat



#1221 Rinehart

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:54

1) too bad, if the Mercs brakes (ahem) grenaded. Feeling so sorry for them. Also, Massa on brand new tyres wasn't that much faster.

 

2) Well, again, FI were 5th and 6th constantly when McLarens were unable to get on points. They are on par again, so the McLarens are doing something right.

Seanspeed: "It was a track that should have suited them as well."
 

China - Button was more than a minute down from Alonso. Canada - Button beat Alonso. So they must have done SOMETHING right.

 

Your saying "too bad" the Mercedes broke but the whole point of the conversation is the analysis of if McLaren have improved relative to the likes of Mercedes.

If your saying they have compared to a knackered Mercedes, I'm not sure that is worth popping the champagne over! 



#1222 Rinehart

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:00

Summarising a lot of team statements, they are all saying 'wait until Europe' to see where we are. So maybe we should have patience then judge development after Silverstone.

I live in hope but they also said the 2013 would be the best car, the 2014 learned the lessons from the 2013 car, Ron is making big changes and they would win this year, to summarise some more quotes.

 

I'm honestly not expecting a big improvement from McLaren this year. My theory is that the way the tight regulations work these days with a good deal of car performance coming from the engine and fundamental vehicle dynamics from the overall design philosophy of the car working with mandated tyres, I think the die is largely set during the winter tests, I'm not sure that there is much scope to "out develop" other teams who are all trying to do the same within the confines of these tight regulations.

 

I can see a scenario where a car is behind schedule such as Red Bull having the propensity to catch up, but I'm not sure its possible to develop a car such as the McLaren, with all the money in the world - towards the front of the grid. I think the only option is a B spec.



#1223 Rinehart

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:02

Massa, with a brand new set of tyres which he only had to run for a few laps at the end, managed only 4 tenths quicker in clear air than JB averaged throughout the whole stint. 

 

That stint was impressive pace, especially considering how many laps he did with that set of tyres.

Mercedes communicated their ERS troubles to all Merc teams I believe. 



#1224 Lazy

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:04

Mercedes communicated their ERS troubles to all Merc teams I believe.


What?

#1225 Rinehart

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:16

Err, linking to another posters opinion doesn't really count as a fact to counter a debate! 

 

3 cars retired ahead of Button, but 2 others finished behind due to issues Hulk & Bottas.

So that's 9th on merit so I think the fact the two Ferraris were beaten on merit is the gain.

China was front limited put Ferrari in good shape, Canada was rear limited, put McLaren in good shape.

The car was quick in the 2nd half of the race I'm not disputing that but needs to be tempered against the fact that a lot of cars were damaged, running 1 stoppers or in compromised track position. 

Button made it crystal clear that the result was lucky. I'm not going to pretend that there has been a drastic improvement on merit (although I would dearly love there to be)! 


Edited by Rinehart, 11 June 2014 - 12:20.


#1226 Rinehart

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:17

What?

 

Massa was running with compromised given the margins they were operating too ERS/rear brakes (on advice from Mercedes) and as befell Bottas.



#1227 Oho

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:21

Well, Austria will be something new for everybody....

 

 

 

To extent no doubt but the track layout seems identical with the one they used from 1997 till 2003.



#1228 Lazy

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:57

Massa was running with compromised given the margins they were operating too ERS/rear brakes (on advice from Mercedes) and as befell Bottas.


Massas lap was the fastest lap of the race, by anybody.

McLaren is also a merc team.

Whichever way you spin it, it was an impressive stint.

#1229 Lazy

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:00

I can't find any reports of Massa turning the wick down.

#1230 rodlamas

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:20

Well, Austria will be something new for everybody (except RBR, maybe), so we might yet hope for some fluke from the competition, together with an inspired set-up from our side, and continue the upward trend.

 

But in Silverstone, that's gonna hurt like hell, unless the guys come up with a really good upgrade. 

Austria is the same as Canada.

 

SF line, up the the hill, down to 150 km/h on 4th to the first corner

Down the hill flat out until 330 km/h, jam on tha brakes for the hairpin.

Again up and down the hill long acceleration, another hairpin Again you reach 330 km/h.

Two medium speed left handers and 2 medium speed right handers separated by a medium size straight.

Again on the SF line. Laps will last less than 65 seconds.

 

Mercedes will dominate the race again and there will be some scrap just like in Canada for 3rd. Hope we can join the fight.



#1231 Nicktendo86

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:26

So are the start of big upgrades scheduled for Austria or Britain?



#1232 Force Ten

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:46

Your saying "too bad" the Mercedes broke but the whole point of the conversation is the analysis of if McLaren have improved relative to the likes of Mercedes.

If your saying they have compared to a knackered Mercedes, I'm not sure that is worth popping the champagne over! 

One part of building a successful race car is building a reliable one. Mercedes apparently thought they could cut it really thing with brakes. Well it came around and bit them in the ass. Can't say I am sorry for them as it worked for them in the rest of the races.

 

And the "analysis" if Macs have improved relative to Mercs, we might aswell ask a fortune teller as we REALLY have no earthly idea what is going on, how much is track dependant and how much is real progress. We are all just flying blind here. Fact is, Mercs were 2 minutes ahead in Barcelona time and weren't this weekend.



#1233 Force Ten

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:50

Err, linking to another posters opinion doesn't really count as a fact to counter a debate! 

 

3 cars retired ahead of Button, but 2 others finished behind due to issues Hulk & Bottas.

So that's 9th on merit so I think the fact the two Ferraris were beaten on merit is the gain.

What f***ing issues? Being slower? Having a bad strategy? Nobody had a gun on Hulkenbergs head forcing to one stop.

Also nobody forced Massa and Perez deciding that the same one third of the track is the only place to be on the last lap of the race. Why does Button NEVER have these accidents?



#1234 Force Ten

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:53

Massa was running with compromised given the margins they were operating too ERS/rear brakes (on advice from Mercedes) and as befell Bottas.

Well that's just awful then, isn't it? Last I remembered McLaren is a Merc customer also, why weren't they compromised?

 

It is just pissing me off you coming here and writing almost a page worth of posts that basically say, that McLaren didn't deserve the result they had in Canada and if the world is just they should have been 9th or worse.



#1235 rodlamas

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:12

Well that's just awful then, isn't it? Last I remembered McLaren is a Merc customer also, why weren't they compromised?

 

It is just pissing me off you coming here and writing almost a page worth of posts that basically say, that McLaren didn't deserve the result they had in Canada and if the world is just they should have been 9th or worse.

I was about to write so.

 

With a better car + the best engine usage (penalty for the others) we look like on having a better 2nd half of the season.

 

My dream is to finish 3rd on the WCC ahead of Williams, Ferrari & Force India.



#1236 Waffle

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:21

Err, linking to another posters opinion doesn't really count as a fact to counter a debate! 

 

3 cars retired ahead of Button, but 2 others finished behind due to issues Hulk & Bottas.

So that's 9th on merit so I think the fact the two Ferraris were beaten on merit is the gain.

China was front limited put Ferrari in good shape, Canada was rear limited, put McLaren in good shape.

The car was quick in the 2nd half of the race I'm not disputing that but needs to be tempered against the fact that a lot of cars were damaged, running 1 stoppers or in compromised track position. 

Button made it crystal clear that the result was lucky. I'm not going to pretend that there has been a drastic improvement on merit (although I would dearly love there to be)! 

 

First of all, I linked to my own post - which I'd put up in reply to you in the first place.  I was merely pointing out that I've already replied to the point that you were making again.

 

Secondly, I was replying to a comment about pace, not position.  

 

Thirdly, I don't think anyone here has claimed that this represents genuine improvement.  I've made it crystal clear in my own posts that all I'm claiming is that a track that should have suited McLaren did suit McLaren.

 

Your argument that the car would have got 9th on merit, has been eloquently answered by other posters here.  However, you originally said that you weren't sure that the car would have scored points on merit.  I'm pleased that you've now come to the conclusion that it would have done.


Edited by Waffle, 11 June 2014 - 15:30.


#1237 rodlamas

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:41

First of all, I linked to my own post - which I'd put up in reply to you in the first place.  I was merely pointing out that I've already replied to the point that you were making again.

 

Secondly, I was replying to a comment about pace, not position.  

 

Thirdly, I don't think anyone here has claimed that this represents genuine improvement.  I've made it crystal clear in my own posts that all I'm claiming is that a track that should have suited McLaren did suit McLaren.

 

Your argument that the car would have got 9th on merit, has been eloquently answered by other posters here.  However, you originally said that you weren't sure that the car would have scored points on merit.  I'm pleased that you've now come to the conclusion that it would have done.

Hulkenberg finished behind Button because Force India chose a bad strategy and Mclaren was faster over a race distance, even with a bad 1st stint.

 

Button finished ahaed of Alonso because Ferrari couldn't overtake Hulk due to a shi**y engine, which is part of their package.

 

Button beat Bottas because Williams has been forcing more the engines than the other Mercedes teams.

 

Button beat Hamilton because the later chose to use a more rewarded brake bias while running 40 laps on a tow with a broken ERS due to aggressive cooling, which is also part of their package.

 

As simple as that.



#1238 Waffle

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:02

I was about to write so.

 

With a better car + the best engine usage (penalty for the others) we look like on having a better 2nd half of the season.

 

My dream is to finish 3rd on the WCC ahead of Williams, Ferrari & Force India.

Do you have data on engine usage?



#1239 Lazy

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:31

I was about to write so.
 
With a better car + the best engine usage (penalty for the others) we look like on having a better 2nd half of the season.
 
My dream is to finish 3rd on the WCC ahead of Williams, Ferrari & Force India.


I'm not bothered about the WCC, I want podium capability and maybe even a win by the end of the season. At least they would be in good shape for next year.

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#1240 Exb

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:33

Do you have data on engine usage?

 Its all in this thread - McLaren looking very good so far :)

http://forums.autosp...wer-unit-count/



#1241 BillBald

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:37

Hulkenberg finished behind Button because Force India chose a bad strategy and Mclaren was faster over a race distance, even with a bad 1st stint.

 

Button finished ahaed of Alonso because Ferrari couldn't overtake Hulk due to a shi**y engine, which is part of their package.

 

Button beat Bottas because Williams has been forcing more the engines than the other Mercedes teams.

 

Button beat Hamilton because the later chose to use a more rewarded brake bias while running 40 laps on a tow with a broken ERS due to aggressive cooling, which is also part of their package.

 

As simple as that.

 

I understand that you don't want to exaggerate the good performance in Canada, but I think you're going too much the other way.

 

It's not clear that Hulk had a worse strategy than Jenson, he started behind him and finished behind him. Jenson was arguably quite unlucky to be stuck in a Kvyat + Raikonnen train in the first stint. Kimi couldn't overtake the STR, Jenson maybe could have done so if Kimi wasn't in the way.

 

The other points you make relate to other teams having problems, which is par for the course really. Maybe those problems showed up more in Canada due to track features or temperatures.

 

The car had good pace in free air. Of course, it didn't look so good in quali, but better strategy would help deal with that. I'm hoping for a good showing in Austria, and then that mega-update to transform the car in UK. :)



#1242 rodlamas

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:47

I understand that you don't want to exaggerate the good performance in Canada, but I think you're going too much the other way.

 

It's not clear that Hulk had a worse strategy than Jenson, he started behind him and finished behind him. Jenson was arguably quite unlucky to be stuck in a Kvyat + Raikonnen train in the first stint. Kimi couldn't overtake the STR, Jenson maybe could have done so if Kimi wasn't in the way.

 

The other points you make relate to other teams having problems, which is par for the course really. Maybe those problems showed up more in Canada due to track features or temperatures.

 

The car had good pace in free air. Of course, it didn't look so good in quali, but better strategy would help deal with that. I'm hoping for a good showing in Austria, and then that mega-update to transform the car in UK. :)

Except for Silverstone and maybe Spa, temperatures are expected to be like Canada for a lot of races from now on.



#1243 BillBald

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:56

Except for Silverstone and maybe Spa, temperatures are expected to be like Canada for a lot of races from now on.

 

Maybe the bulky bodywork of the 29 won't turn out to be such a bad choice?



#1244 rodlamas

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:01

Maybe the bulky bodywork of the 29 won't turn out to be such a bad choice?

Well being bulky it's not necessarily a disadvantage. Ferrari is seen to be without downforce due to slim sidepods.



#1245 ermo

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 18:11

Well being bulky it's not necessarily a disadvantage. Ferrari is seen to be without downforce due to slim sidepods.


Not that I dispute the assertion, but do you have a credible source for that? :)

#1246 ermo

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 18:46

I can see a scenario where a car is behind schedule such as Red Bull having the propensity to catch up, but I'm not sure its possible to develop a car such as the McLaren, with all the money in the world - towards the front of the grid. I think the only option is a B spec.


Define "B-spec".

McLaren likely don't need to alter the suspension/fundamental vehicle dynamics, as by all accounts the car is already well balanced, reacts to setup changes and is compliant enough to go well on traction-limited circuits. So that implies that at least one third of the platform is fundamentally sound. The other third (the PU + drivetrain) is also looking fundamentally sound so far, though there might be scope for improving the cooling concept. That leaves the final third: The Aero.

Have McLaren realized that they need to re-design/re-package the PU cooling solution and change the aero approach so much that they're effectively re-sculpting most of the aero-critical surface area of the car in the search of lower drag, more usable downforce and overall better airflow management?

Considering the noises coming from Eric Boullier regarding the wind-tunnel developments, the answer is probably "yes".

"Unlock the potential"? Definitely. But "B-spec"? Not so sure... :well:

#1247 Clatter

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 19:00

Massa was running with compromised given the margins they were operating too ERS/rear brakes (on advice from Mercedes) and as befell Bottas.

Was he? 

 

Why would the same advice and compromises not apply to Mclaren?



#1248 rodlamas

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 19:01

Not that I dispute the assertion, but do you have a credible source for that? :)

Somebody wrote this on the F14T thread.



#1249 ermo

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 19:05

Somebody wrote this on the F14T thread.


Not quite what I had in mind when I wrote "credible source", but it will have to do I suppose. :)

#1250 bogi

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 20:42

Well being bulky it's not necessarily a disadvantage. Ferrari is seen to be without downforce due to slim sidepods.

 

 

I wouldn't bet on this story for a second, I think this one is from that hack twitter account @pitlanetalk


Edited by bogi, 11 June 2014 - 20:43.