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Ferrari F14 T - Part III


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#51 Tuxy

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 14:33

Basically, sounds like a poor design choice for their system.

 

Either there are too many cooks in the kitchen, or the cook just isn't cutting it.



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#52 MikeTosen

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 16:15

Well it sounds like they sized the turbo too big.

If this is true what is being said, it explains a few things.

 

1.) With a big turbo, you would have lots of lag - so power delivery is not smooth.

2.) Power would come in violently - so you have poor traction under acceleration.

3.) You would constantly need electrical power to keep that big turbo spun up, so that drains power that could other wise be saved or used to drive the electrical motor.

4.) With an over sized turbo, you would need every bit of exhaust power to drive the turbine to make power, little/none would be available to drive the MGU-H - so you have less energy being harvested.

 

But sure the designers would have known that, and it would be a rather silly and amateurish mistake to make - so not sure that is the problem.

 

I personally would still place the blame on software - deciding what to drive when and at what speed, and when to harvest - making all system work smoothly.

An example - how much to spin the turbo by electrical power when coming on the throttle - spin it too much or too fast and you make power delivery violent.

Or harvest too much power from the turbo at full power and you drop power by slowing down the turbo too much - so it is a very delicate and difficult thing to get right.

 

It is controlling a mechanical system with software - there is delays and varying response times, quite a mission - any body that has ever worked with a closed loop mechanical system using software will tell you, it is a mission to get right.


Edited by MikeTosen, 23 April 2014 - 17:33.


#53 AlexS

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:08

Less bureaucracy: for  faster decisions, less email, more pressure on suppliers to speed up improvements. Less external consulting except for those really necessary.

 

http://autosprint.co...u-rapido/14929/



#54 AlexS

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:15

Omnicorse says but without certainty that there are rumors that say the disaster in Bahrain was also due to a wrong setup for the cars. Which is a bit bizarre since they tested there for 2 times before the GP.

 

http://www.omnicorse...-crescere-prima



#55 Massa

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 19:59

Less bureaucracy: for  faster decisions, less email, more pressure on suppliers to speed up improvements. Less external consulting except for those really necessary.

 

http://autosprint.co...u-rapido/14929/

 

 

I like all of these changes. The scuderia is really changing right now, it's no longer the same team than 2010-2011.



#56 discover23

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:11

That article is just PR. You have to let people know immediately that new mgmt. will introduce changes. 



#57 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:45

 

Really good news.

 

 

 

Really bad news.

 

"He has asked for an immediate overhaul and streamlining of internal processes, eliminating intermediate stages and bureaucracy in order to be more flexible and efficient when it comes to the decision making process."

 

What? Why do they still have these intermediate stages and bureaucracy which needs to be pruned. This is either BS or SD and LdM f*d up big time and I have to change my opinion about them and what I thought they did these past years.


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 April 2014 - 20:47.


#58 Markn93

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:47

Really bad news.

 

"He has asked for an immediate overhaul and streamlining of internal processes, eliminating intermediate stages and bureaucracy in order to be more flexible and efficient when it comes to the decision making process."

 

What? Why do they still have these intermediate stages and bureaucracy which needs to be pruned. This is either BS or SD and LdM f*d up big time and I have to change my opinion about them and what they thought they did these past years.

Right, I see this as an indictment of the old regime rather than anything overly positive. 



#59 Cyanide

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:55

Those sound more like a bunch of shallow corporate reorganization moves regarding problems that shouldn't have been there in the first place. 

 

Also reeks of PR more than anything. 



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#60 Kimble

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 21:03

Didn't Pat Fry put a load of these processes in place when he arrived?



#61 warp

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 21:42

Probably... but it may be just the new management getting to grips with the situation. Sounds plausible.

 

Say, something needs to be done and Domenicali used to do it. Now that he's gone, either Mattiaci or even Luca get a paper/email and they go like "wtf? Why do I have to sign or approve for this? Why hasn't it been done already?"

 

Anyway, I just hope it is a step in the right direction.



#62 boldhakka

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:34

Really bad news.

 

"He has asked for an immediate overhaul and streamlining of internal processes, eliminating intermediate stages and bureaucracy in order to be more flexible and efficient when it comes to the decision making process."

 

What? Why do they still have these intermediate stages and bureaucracy which needs to be pruned. This is either BS or SD and LdM f*d up big time and I have to change my opinion about them and what I thought they did these past years.

 

Sounds like change for change's sake, TBH. 



#63 kosmos

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:45

Really bad news.

 

 

They remove all the BS from the decision taking process and is bad news?, ok.



#64 George Costanza

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:50

Really bad news.

 

"He has asked for an immediate overhaul and streamlining of internal processes, eliminating intermediate stages and bureaucracy in order to be more flexible and efficient when it comes to the decision making process."

 

What? Why do they still have these intermediate stages and bureaucracy which needs to be pruned. This is either BS or SD and LdM f*d up big time and I have to change my opinion about them and what I thought they did these past years.

 

In other words, LDM is trying to be like Jack Welch....


Edited by George Costanza, 24 April 2014 - 03:52.


#65 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:01

They remove all the BS from the decision taking process and is bad news?, ok.

 

The bad news is that supposedly there is so much BS in the decision taking process after Fry and Domenicali supposedly streamlined processes for years now.

Edit: I don't believe that's the case, the LdM statement reads like pure corporate BS, and that's the other side of the bad news.


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 April 2014 - 06:03.


#66 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:01

AMuS has a few detailed pics of the blown nuts:

http://www.auto-moto...otoshow_item=32



#67 pikamoku

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:30

edit: sorry, I replied directly from previous page without reading your answers. But the question stands.

 

 

************ 

 

Really good news.

 

 

:confused:  so LdM firing people and calling suppliers

 

doesnt sound good news to me, wasnt  that mr.Fry job? i.e. setting the right people on the right place


Edited by pikamoku, 24 April 2014 - 06:32.


#68 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:47

Pat Fry comes from a corporate culture of design by committee (McLaren)... I have little reason to doubt that Ferrari article as it is only when new top management is put in place that a thorough assessment happens.

 

I don't know the Mattiacci style of management but reading his resume leads me to believe that he places emphasis on efficiency. So this is not an indictment on what is currently happening but rather on the previous regime. I'm very interested in how all this plays out because there are bound to be new signings and a few sackings. Who that is is anybody's guess. 


Edited by Ferrari2183, 24 April 2014 - 07:01.


#69 Lazy

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:48

 

doesnt sound good news to me, wasnt  that mr.Fry job? i.e. setting the right people on the right place

Maybe that's the problem, people can't do their job because they need to clear everything higher up the chain where the politics clouds everything.



#70 Cyanide

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:49

Something tells me they'll fire Pat Fry soon. 

 

Which leaves room for Bob Bell. 



#71 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:59

Something tells me they'll fire Pat Fry soon. 

 

Which leaves room for Bob Bell. 

Pat Fry just signed a contract extension.



#72 Cyanide

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:03

Pat Fry just signed a contract extension.

 

Oh...well, bummer. 



#73 kosmos

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:30

gaaaagyjlg.jpg

 

Full powers to Mattiacci, new people will arrive to Allison and Marmorini groups, more efficient Gestione Sportiva.



#74 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:33

Gives us details man.

#75 Ncedi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:50

Gives us details man.

 

This!!

 

Also OT, but are you South African by any chance Ferrari2183? Not sure why but something suggested to me that you might be....



#76 kosmos

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:51

Gives us details man.

 

Dude is more or less what I worte above plus the article we got from Ferrari.com yesterday.

 

-Ferrari want to repeat the Todt model.
-Faster decision making.
-Structure like RB.
-Mattiacci full powers.
-More autonomy for the Gestione Sportiva in relation to the industrial division.
-Simplification of the organization.
-new people will arrive to Allison and Marmorini groups


Edited by kosmos, 24 April 2014 - 07:53.


#77 e34

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:13

In other words, LDM is trying to be like Jack Welch....

 

... and may probably end up being like Bill Agee.

 

http://money.cnn.com...5/05/29/203144/

 

Either Domenicali's structure was an epic failure, or this is knee-jerk reaction. You can't discover structural redundancies in two days, unless half the factory carries a billboard over their head reading REDUNDANT.

 

But let's wait and see. Now is really the time to keep calm.  :cool: 

 

 

 

Dude is more or less what I worte above plus the article we got from Ferrari.com yesterday.

 

-Ferrari want to repeat the Todt model.
-Faster decision making.
-Structure like RB.
-Mattiacci full powers.
-More autonomy for the Gestione Sportiva in relation to the industrial division.
-Simplification of the organization.
-new people will arrive to Allison and Marmorini groups

 

 

Yeah, and Alonso last year wanted an RB9 or 10, or whatever. 

 

I would like to know what's Domenicali's current opinion about Montezemolo...


Edited by e34, 24 April 2014 - 08:16.


#78 OneAndOnly

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:15

 

Either Domenicali's structure was an epic failure, or this is knee-jerk reaction. You can't discover structural redundancies in two days, unless half the factory carries a billboard over their head reading REDUNDANT.

 

 

You can if it is obvious. Maybe we can't, but someone with such experience in corporate business can easily spot weak parts of organisation. IIRC the biggest problem of Toyota F1 is they had Japanese corporate model in F1 team which was just too slow for F1 environment. Bad/inefficient organization made in Dom era could explain team's poor showing in last few year. 



#79 boldhakka

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:33

-new people will arrive to Allison and Marmorini groups

 

This is interesting. I wonder from where. 



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#80 Massa

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:39

http://nextgen-auto....14-T,75751.html

 

 

Ferrari will have a massive update for Spain

 

 

- New nose a bit like the new Mercedes one

- New FW

- New floor

- New RW

- New sidepods, they will be tighter because Ferrari will have new smaller radiator, all of this to have a better top speed

- The new engine cover will be more tight around the gearbox

- New software update, they hope to gain between 10 or 15 HP


Edited by Massa, 24 April 2014 - 09:44.


#81 e34

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:56

You can if it is obvious. Maybe we can't, but someone with such experience in corporate business can easily spot weak parts of organisation. IIRC the biggest problem of Toyota F1 is they had Japanese corporate model in F1 team which was just too slow for F1 environment. Bad/inefficient organization made in Dom era could explain team's poor showing in last few year. 

 

But then these last years must have been a disaster, if it is so obvious. And people in the team are clued up about what it is an F1 team... unless there is something in the air in the ex-toyota wind tunnel....



#82 Markn93

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:05

http://nextgen-auto....14-T,75751.html

 

 

Ferrari will have a massive update for Spain

 

 

- New nose a bit like the new Mercedes one

- New FW

- New floor

- New RW

- New sidepods, they will be tighter because Ferrari will have new smaller radiator, all of this to have a better top speed

- The new engine cover will be more tight around the gearbox

- New software update, they hope to gain between 10 or 15 HP

Now that's more like it.



#83 Gorma

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:28

So a F14 Tuberculose?



#84 vista

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:32

From the judge about upcoming updates (most of it has already been mentioned):

 

In Spain in three weeks time Ferrari is expected to debut a new ‘extreme’ nose that has been kept under wraps since the launch of the car and further developments in fuel are coming from Shell who have reduced the horsepower deficit to Mercedes to around 20bhp. The software technicians are working on updates that will allow better integration of the two electric motors and a new aero package will be ready for the F14-T’s first major upgrade.

 

Perhaps of most significance is the message coming from Ferrari. There are still 15 races to go and it’s the ideal opportunity to assimilate the working groups into a collective whole. The 2015 design has already had about two months of work dedicated to it but any developments from this season will be built into the design of the new car.

 

http://thejudge13.com/



#85 Goron3

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:40

Really impressed with these updates. Of course, the aero updates alone will be worth a LOT of time because we are nowhere near the ceiling for the development of these cars. Of course, combined with the software update we could find ourselves challenging for the front row..or is that wishful thinking? I can see us being 2 seconds a lap quicker in qualifying trim.



#86 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:44

If legitimate, that's a very comprehensive and impressive package. 



#87 GoldenColt

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:45

Really impressed with these updates. Of course, the aero updates alone will be worth a LOT of time because we are nowhere near the ceiling for the development of these cars. Of course, combined with the software update we could find ourselves challenging for the front row..or is that wishful thinking? I can see us being 2 seconds a lap quicker in qualifying trim.

Are you being serious?



#88 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:03

Really impressed with these updates. Of course, the aero updates alone will be worth a LOT of time because we are nowhere near the ceiling for the development of these cars. Of course, combined with the software update we could find ourselves challenging for the front row..or is that wishful thinking? I can see us being 2 seconds a lap quicker in qualifying trim.


Lest not forget other teams will bring enormous updates too. Merc will still have a considerable advantage.

#89 Goron3

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:03

Lest not forget other teams will bring enormous updates too. Merc will still have a considerable advantage.

Oh I know, but they are already running closer to 100%, so we have more to gain. The gap will definitely become smaller, the question is how small..



#90 pusko

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:13

If Alonso gets within 0,5 sec of Hamilton on race pace.....I'll be impressed. :smoking:



#91 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:25

Oh I know, but they are already running closer to 100%, so we have more to gain. The gap will definitely become smaller, the question is how small..

 

For sure  :up:



#92 Markn93

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:36

Oh I know, but they are already running closer to 100%, so we have more to gain. The gap will definitely become smaller, the question is how small..

What does that mean? Who knows where 100% is? You only know Ferrari are far off because of Merc, who could just as easily make big gains. Just because they're ahead doesn't mean you can assume they will be slower to develop and caught, especially at the beginning of this new reg era where everyone should be able to find time.



#93 Richard T

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:21

Very excited for this "extreme" nose. Not that I think it will result in a great performance gain in itself, but it will be interesting to see what a extreme nose is compared to the other weird things out there :laugh:

Anyway, happy to see Ferrari seems to be reacting somewhat, hopefully their gain is bigger than the other team manages :up:

#94 jrwb6e

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:46

I'm just excited that the development path is so aggressive.  Ferrari must really be confident in its wind tunnel to be bringing so many aerodynamic updates at one time.  In year's past, it was no more than two or three updates at a time and it seemed like guesswork.



#95 slmk

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:49

Really impressed with these updates. Of course, the aero updates alone will be worth a LOT of time because we are nowhere near the ceiling for the development of these cars. Of course, combined with the software update we could find ourselves challenging for the front row..or is that wishful thinking? I can see us being 2 seconds a lap quicker in qualifying trim.

 

Time to put some money on Alonso win in Spain and 2014 WDC. Reckon odds are still very good. 

 

That update package should surely help bridge most of the gap to Mercedes. So was it Ferrari building a Mark.2 car for Spain really? Because that to me... looks like a new car.


Edited by slmk, 24 April 2014 - 13:49.


#96 Goron3

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:52

What does that mean? Who knows where 100% is? You only know Ferrari are far off because of Merc, who could just as easily make big gains. Just because they're ahead doesn't mean you can assume they will be slower to develop and caught, especially at the beginning of this new reg era where everyone should be able to find time.

No, my point is that because they are ahead of us on the development curve, particularly with regards to PU software and ERS delivery, they will make more incremental steps than we will. We have bigger gains to find vs Merc because we are behind them.

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong! They could have huge ERS delivery issues and may only be using 80% of the PU's full power, and come Spain they could fix those completely and find even more time. If that's the case, the rest of the season will be very hard to endure.

 

I doubt we'll catch up to them, but I can see us finding a second from aerodynamics alone..Updates to PU, fuel, and even some weight saving could take us closer to improving by 2s or so.

Out of interest, what do people think of the other mercedes teams? Will Mclaren catch up to us or are we anticipated it being Ferrari vs Red Bull for 2nd place?



#97 slmk

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:07

No, my point is that because they are ahead of us on the development curve, particularly with regards to PU software and ERS delivery, they will make more incremental steps than we will. We have bigger gains to find vs Merc because we are behind them.

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong! They could have huge ERS delivery issues and may only be using 80% of the PU's full power, and come Spain they could fix those completely and find even more time. If that's the case, the rest of the season will be very hard to endure.

 

I doubt we'll catch up to them, but I can see us finding a second from aerodynamics alone..Updates to PU, fuel, and even some weight saving could take us closer to improving by 2s or so.

Out of interest, what do people think of the other mercedes teams? Will Mclaren catch up to us or are we anticipated it being Ferrari vs Red Bull for 2nd place?

 

Improving by 2 seconds would allow you to lap the entire field in Barcelona, including Mercedes.



#98 kosmos

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:27

Really impressed with these updates.

 

 

I will be very impressed if they work, until them is just a list on a website.



#99 Gorma

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:33

I will be very impressed if they work, until them is just a list on a website.

I'd be impressed to see the updates in the first place.



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#100 Goron3

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:42

Improving by 2 seconds would allow you to lap the entire field in Barcelona, including Mercedes.

Everyone else will improve as well, dude. Everyone will bring at least aero update to Barca. 

 

Remember, the teams believe the cars at the end of the season will be 4-5 seconds quicker than those at the beginning. It's not unreasonable to expect 1.5-2s to come once we hit europe and another second by the time Silverstone comes along. The rest will come after the break.