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Ferrari F14 T - Part III


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#101 SCUDmissile

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:45

I hope we are not being fooled here. If there are going to be major upgrades, well damn  :smoking:

 

Since they seem to be working these days, it could mean a big step. But then Mercedes, RedBull, etc won't be sitting still either. Just got to hope the package is more comprehensive than what they bring.



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#102 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:47

Really impressed with these updates. Of course, the aero updates alone will be worth a LOT of time because we are nowhere near the ceiling for the development of these cars. Of course, combined with the software update we could find ourselves challenging for the front row..or is that wishful thinking? I can see us being 2 seconds a lap quicker in qualifying trim.

1 second quicker(compared to the Ferrari, not to the competition) would already be pretty damn optimistic, assuming all those updates are real and work.

And if true, whoever I was talking to(I'm sorry, I forget) about whether or not Ferrari was confident enough to start messing with internals was right on that front.

#103 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:51

Everyone else will improve as well, dude. Everyone will bring at least aero update to Barca. 
 
Remember, the teams believe the cars at the end of the season will be 4-5 seconds quicker than those at the beginning. It's not unreasonable to expect 1.5-2s to come once we hit europe and another second by the time Silverstone comes along. The rest will come after the break.

I'm still a bit sceptical about this '4 second improvement' thing.

Yes, the cars are new, but the aero regulations are still roughly based on the 09 dimensions and there's actually less areas the teams can exploit than before. Not to mention that these cars have been in development longer than usual.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 April 2014 - 14:52.


#104 Goron3

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:01

I'm still a bit sceptical about this '4 second improvement' thing.

Yes, the cars are new, but the aero regulations are still roughly based on the 09 dimensions and there's actually less areas the teams can exploit than before. Not to mention that these cars have been in development longer than usual.

It'll be interesting, that's for sure. Now that so much downforce has been lost due to exhaust blowing, I'm looking forward to seeing what the engineers come up with. I just hope that Ferrari are able to lead from the front this time round. It was so frustrating watching other teams come up with DDRS, F-duct, double diffusers etc and seeing us be so conservative!



#105 dreamerBiH

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:02

I have high hopes for this update and I am somehow confident hat we will be up there fighting with Mercedes. I know that there aren't many reasons to be that much confident, but the last race gave me hope. I remember many saying that the track characteristics in China are almost as bad as in Bahrain and that Ferrari will be eaten alive, but we witnessed something completely different. Especially the race pace was encouraging.



#106 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:11

This!!

Also OT, but are you South African by any chance Ferrari2183? Not sure why but something suggested to me that you might be....

Mzansi for sure! But that's common knowledge to the older folk around here.

#107 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:17

This Spain update is only the start. Hearing noises about another step in Canada.

#108 Vesuvius

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:21

Planned updates sounds good but it's a different matter if they work like they should...also other teams have big packages for barcelona etc, especially will have to look what Red Bull will bring.

#109 Vesuvius

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:24

I'm still a bit sceptical about this '4 second improvement' thing.

Yes, the cars are new, but the aero regulations are still roughly based on the 09 dimensions and there's actually less areas the teams can exploit than before. Not to mention that these cars have been in development longer than usual.


Toto Wolf said he is very confident teams will develop at least 4 seconds this season (usually it's 2 seconds) because they still have a lot to learn from engines, electronics, fuel using, aerodynamics and most of all tyres...they also have in season testing now.

#110 kosmos

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:52

This Spain update is only the start. Hearing noises about another step in Canada.

 

Upgrades in every race until Austria, that's what the Italian media reported not long ago.



#111 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:56

Hopefully these upgrades will work very well, sounds like as if it's a new car.

 

But I guess they've only brought in minor updates since the Bahrain winter test so it;s about time!



#112 Ferrari2183

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 16:03

Upgrades in every race until Austria, that's what the Italian media reported not long ago.

I've read them but I'm assuming the Canada upgrade is the next major one. Monaco is too specific to bring anything of note apart from circuit specific stuff.

#113 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 19:45

Toto Wolf said he is very confident teams will develop at least 4 seconds this season (usually it's 2 seconds) because they still have a lot to learn from engines, electronics, fuel using, aerodynamics and most of all tyres...they also have in season testing now.

I don't believe that will happen.  I'd guess around 1.5 - 2 seconds at the most for Mercedes.



#114 Gorma

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 20:03

I don't believe that will happen. I'd guess around 1.5 - 2 seconds at the most for Mercedes.

I think some teams have already achieved 1,5-2 seconds. So I don't see any problem for Mercedes gaining up to 4 seconds. Sure they were more ready than many others at start of the season but I don't think they are no where near the peak of development.

#115 Cyanide

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 21:01

Updates look good on paper, whether they work on track is a different matter. We'll see how effective that new wind tunnel is.

 

Ferrari can close the gap to Mercedes, but I imagine the guys in Brackley aren't soaking their balls in the pool either (Vettel can tell you a bit about that). And those who think Mercedes have little time to find are in for a rude awakening. 



#116 vista

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 21:23

Lets not forget the massive race pace advantage Mercedes has. On one lap pace I expect teams to be closer to merc eventually but in the race their energy delivery is just extremely good. I don't think anyone can catch them unless engine homologation is lifted unfortunately.

Regarding Ferrari; James Allison has not been attending any Grand Prixs so far (correct me if I'm wrong) but has supposedly been working on an big aerodynamic package which fits well with the rumours on this page.

#117 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 21:36

I think some teams have already achieved 1,5-2 seconds. So I don't see any problem for Mercedes gaining up to 4 seconds. Sure they were more ready than many others at start of the season but I don't think they are no where near the peak of development.

These cars weigh 50kg more than those of 2013, that is about 2 seconds right there.  They have lost about 1.5 seconds worth of aero (including exhaust blowing).  I just don't see the scope for them to haul back 4 seconds this season, it just doesn't seem realistic, but the weight fixed and aero development should similar to last year (in fact there is less to exploit this year), so most of that 4 seconds will have to come from the power unit which I don't think is possible, not in 2014.



#118 oetzi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 21:42

1 second quicker(compared to the Ferrari, not to the competition) would already be pretty damn optimistic, assuming all those updates are real and work.

And if true, whoever I was talking to(I'm sorry, I forget) about whether or not Ferrari was confident enough to start messing with internals was right on that front.

It really isn't.

 

Nothing is ever set in stone or properly measurable (to us, at least) but the difference between Ferrari's performance in Bahrain and China indicates a fairly significant relative improvement, which should (sensibly) indicate a larger absolute improvement (assuming the other teams all had some level of improvement). A bigger update package (if it works) should provide a bigger absolute improvement.

 

All the enigne tech is so new that there are big gains to be had. And there's aero on top of that. That's true for all teams, but it'sthere if they can find it.



#119 oetzi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 21:46

These cars weigh 50kg more than those of 2013, that is about 2 seconds right there.  They have lost about 1.5 seconds worth of aero (including exhaust blowing).  I just don't see the scope for them to haul back 4 seconds this season, it just doesn't seem realistic, but the weight fixed and aero development should similar to last year (in fact there is less to exploit this year), so most of that 4 seconds will have to come from the power unit which I don't think is possible, not in 2014.

The engines (PUs) are stronger than last year's though. And there's still plenty to find in them.



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#120 BorkoF2012

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 21:55

I don't know why but I have a feeling we'll hear Alonso on Thursday again saying "the car is basically the same as it was in China". Anytime we hear rumors about huge Ferrari upgrades that happens.



#121 f1RacingForever

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 22:27

I don't know why but I have a feeling we'll hear Alonso on Thursday again saying "the car is basically the same as it was in China". Anytime we hear rumors about huge Ferrari upgrades that happens.

Don't talk like than man. Have faith!



#122 f1RacingForever

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 22:29

I suppose the worst thing that could happen is problems in fp that limit the testing of the new parts. Doubt we'll see 1 sec improvement but if we are second best after Spain I'll be happy.



#123 oetzi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 22:36

I don't know why but I have a feeling we'll hear Alonso on Thursday again saying "the car is basically the same as it was in China". Anytime we hear rumors about huge Ferrari upgrades that happens.

He'd say that if they gave him an F40 and everyone else had rollerskates.



#124 oetzi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 22:37

I suppose the worst thing that could happen is problems in fp that limit the testing of the new parts. Doubt we'll see 1 sec improvement but if we are second best after Spain I'll be happy.

How would you measure that?

 

Just out of interest.



#125 Obi Offiah

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 22:41

The engines (PUs) are stronger than last year's though. And there's still plenty to find in them.

I agree, I just don't think Mercedes will find 2.5 seconds plus from the PU.



#126 SCUDmissile

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 23:11

Don't talk like than man. Have faith!

 

Alonso said that before China also....

 

I think we can be encouraged from the fact that while it is easier to make a fast car reliable compared to making a reliable care fast, it is also easier to make a slow car faster than a fast car faster still.

 

Ferrari made big gains with the F2012, especially after Mugello to the point where it could hang with the McLaren and RedBull at times. So if all the aero tools are working well, it is not out of the question for these kinds of gains to be made here too.



#127 oetzi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 23:21

 it is easier to make a fast car reliable compared to making a reliable care fast

I get the feeling that the Ferrari and Red Bull are quicker (somewhere deep down, nowhere that's been found yet) than the Merc.

 

Just a feeling.



#128 oetzi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 23:26

I agree, I just don't think Mercedes will find 2.5 seconds plus from the PU.

No, I agree. But Ferrari and Renault might find more than Mercedes can.

 

Diminishing returns aren't guaranteed, but they're pretty likely. Looking that way already.

 

There's a lot more to come from the PU war though (horrible image, apologies.) It's not going to be as straightforward as 'who is where now and what can they get back in x races'. They've all got a strategy to make the most of the development potential including the frozen items, reliability upgrades etc. We won't see who's really ahead play out for at least another year or two IMnsvHO.


Edited by oetzi, 24 April 2014 - 23:33.


#129 kosmos

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:28

Analysis – F1 2014 the story so far: Ferrari (James Allen)

 

Let me know if is worth reading, the scores are a complete joke in my opinion.



#130 f1RacingForever

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:36

How would you measure that?

 

Just out of interest.

I don't know but the team has the data and will know if and how much time they have found. Especially in Barcelona where they have the data from preseason testing to compare.



#131 f1RacingForever

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:40

Alonso said that before China also....

 

I think we can be encouraged from the fact that while it is easier to make a fast car reliable compared to making a reliable care fast, it is also easier to make a slow car faster than a fast car faster still.

 

Ferrari made big gains with the F2012, especially after Mugello to the point where it could hang with the McLaren and RedBull at times. So if all the aero tools are working well, it is not out of the question for these kinds of gains to be made here too.

I'm no engineer but it think the problems have more to do with the PU, but we'll see. Hope you are right.



#132 HPT

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:49

We're discussing as if the updates announcement is from Ferrari themselves. Is this source credible? Sorry if I've missed something. Appreciate someone enlighten me on this :)



#133 HPT

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:57

Analysis – F1 2014 the story so far: Ferrari (James Allen)

 

Let me know if is worth reading, the scores are a complete joke in my opinion.

 

He makes good points but I agree the scores are a bit of a joke. In his analysis he said Alonso is driving at a very high level and he specifically mentioned 2012 level, yet he scored him 7/10. Ranking Kimi 5/10 and Ferrari 6/10 is about right though. Still worth a read in my opinion.



#134 AustinF1

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:06

He makes good points but I agree the scores are a bit of a joke. In his analysis he said Alonso is driving at a very high level and he specifically mentioned 2012 level, yet he scored him 7/10. Ranking Kimi 5/10 and Ferrari 6/10 is about right though. Still worth a read in my opinion.

Agree with all of this. Informative article, but the scoring was bizarre at best. 



#135 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 10:48

It really isn't.
 
Nothing is ever set in stone or properly measurable (to us, at least) but the difference between Ferrari's performance in Bahrain and China indicates a fairly significant relative improvement, which should (sensibly) indicate a larger absolute improvement (assuming the other teams all had some level of improvement). A bigger update package (if it works) should provide a bigger absolute improvement.
 
All the enigne tech is so new that there are big gains to be had. And there's aero on top of that. That's true for all teams, but it'sthere if they can find it.

Difference in China also had a lot to do with the track being front dependent as well, I think. I don't think we'd have fought for a podium if the race was held at Bahrain again, for instance.

We're discussing as if the updates announcement is from Ferrari themselves. Is this source credible? Sorry if I've missed something. Appreciate someone enlighten me on this :)

Good point. I suppose its a bit of wishful thinking as well as clinging on to absolutely any 'update news' we can get our grubby mitts on. :)

#136 Ksharp

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:15

He makes good points but I agree the scores are a bit of a joke.

Whenever there's a scoring concerned in F1, especially with journalists, it's pure imagination and no one should take such numbers into account. 



#137 oetzi

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:20

Difference in China also had a lot to do with the track being front dependent as well, I think. I don't think we'd have fought for a podium if the race was held at Bahrain again, for instance.

Maybe so. Guess we'll get some indication of that as the season goes on.



#138 Richard T

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:31

Very interesting piece on Ferraris nose, which acts like a diffuser: http://www.f1fanatic...ront-wing-nose/

 

Edit: Also, more in depth how noses and front wings work...


Edited by Richard T, 25 April 2014 - 11:42.


#139 AyrtonSauna

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:37

I don't know but the team has the data and will know if and how much time they have found. Especially in Barcelona where they have the data from preseason testing to compare.


They didn't test at Barca this year remember? It was 1 test at Jerez and 2 at Bahrain.

That reminds me that (not pointing at you) so many fans are still viewing a 1 second deficit to Merc in terms of the last era of V8's where a 1 second deficit was insurmountable.That's not the case this year.1 second ahead has less value than in the past when development on all fronts of the car is happening faster with growth spurts so likely.

I haven't given up hope for Ferrari this year.There's so much more developement to come that no one knows how the order will be by Mid season so I fear Red Bull as much as Merc.Good chance that Ferrari will finally get their aero act together this year with the blower working well.We just got to nail that PU and improve alot in and out of tight turns without sacrificing the strength the Ferrari has in high speed turns.Easier said than done but I have confidence in the new Ferrari team.

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#140 zaviali

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 13:54

One thing is for sure that pretty much every team will be bringing updates to Barcelona and Ferrari wouldn't be an exception. I however am skeptical of such a major change. What I mean to say is that FW, RW, Floor etc sound too good to be true to be updated in one go, not to forget the ERS update. So not too sure what to believe and what not to what I do hope is that the team more than anyone knows where it is lacking and what is required to bridge the gap. They will be doing what every they can to make it happen in the best way they can in the recourses they have at their disposal. So if on Friday we don't see all these rumored updates then I think we shouldn't get upset but what we do need to expect is, and hopefully, there is some sort of recovery.

 

Forza ferrari



#141 Astro

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:23

Interview to Mike Evans (Formula One Fuels Project Leader from Shell).

 

Q: What exactly do we think is going on with the competitive 1-1.2 seconds advantage, Mercedes split turbo, and where is Ferrari on this deal and what do we think Ferrari is struggling with?

 

A: It's being in everything together, I think. Ferrari is making big advances in the last races to be more competitive. Mercedes has done a really good job. Everything is well engineered and well packaged. They've got the engine which is efficient, they've packaged it all and made the car smaller and reduce the size of the radiators, and some aspects like that. This improves the whole package and the whole performance. But obviously Ferrari is catching on quickly. There is a big pressure on us to help them on the fuel side. Fuels are now more and more important. More so than they have been in the last 20 or 30 years...

 

Q: Splitting the turbo as Mercedes does, seems like a brilliant idea?

 

A: My understanding is that Ferrari's turbo and system are very similar to the Mercedes. I must admit I don't know that from gospel, but that's the word I've had. It is a similar type of approach. Whether it has been developed to the same degree or not, I am not sure, unfortunately.

 

Q: Is that worth a 1 second, second and an half?

 

A: No I don't think so. I think is the whole packaging together.

 

He also says they have a new fuel coming for Spain (if they can get it on time).



#142 Seanspeed

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:54

That was a good listen. Thanks.

#143 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:51

It seems we needed Domenicalli out to finally  stay calm.  :kiss:


Edited by TIFOlonSO, 30 April 2014 - 11:57.


#144 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:57

It seems we needed Domenicalli out to finally  stay calm.  :kiss:

One bad performance and everybody will freak out again.

I'm not looking forward to Canada....

#145 Ferrari2183

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 15:00

One bad performance and everybody will freak out again.

I'm not looking forward to Canada....

Hopefully Canada will be good as that is when they introduce more new bits. Gut feeling is that as of Canada regular fights for the podium will start happening.

#146 oetzi

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:48

One bad performance and everybody will freak out again.

Speak for yourself.

 

I remain calm  :)



#147 grunge

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 15:58

Speak for yourself.

I remain calm :)

Pirelli are bringing their two hardest compounds in Barcelona..Ferrari this season (kimi in particular) has seemed ill at ease on the more robust compounds.
So there is reason to freak out :)

Looking forward to Canada though...supersofts and softs.

Edited by grunge, 01 May 2014 - 18:51.


#148 Obi Offiah

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 16:14

Pirelli are bringing their two hardest compounds in Valencia..Ferrari this season (kimi in particular) has seemed ill at ease on the more robust compounds.
So there is reason to freak out :)

Looking forward to Canada though...supersofts and softs.

Nothing to worry about then considering the teams are heading off to Barcelona.



#149 kspeedracer

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:34

One bad performance and everybody will freak out again.

I'm not looking forward to Canada....



Assuming that the last part about looking forward to Canada being ironic.

Am guessing Canada like Bharain will probably expose the traction problems inherit in the car.

#150 AlexS

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:24

http://www.f1fanatic...-engine-tweaks/

 

Sauber announces a PU software update for Barca race, i guess will be the same for Ferrari too.