Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 6 votes

Ferrari F14 T - Part III


  • Please log in to reply
2898 replies to this topic

#2851 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,388 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 29 July 2014 - 13:52

Yes this story of the using Marussia to do the the research doesn't make much sense.First of all is the question why don't they have it from start... 

Second  Marussia doesn't have the same body which implies a different fluids dissipation so what will be done in Marussia is not directly applicable to Ferrari.



Advertisement

#2852 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,020 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 29 July 2014 - 14:22

How old/new is the Williams wind tunnel? Just asking because Im wondering if Fry took Ferrari on a merry go round. Thats all. 



#2853 Avastrol

Avastrol
  • Member

  • 363 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:03

So you want to hire but not to fire or demote?

 

 

Do you know the difference between a Logical Proposition and an Illogical one?  

 

Yes. You kick someone upstairs
 

Maybe they're doing it to Fry. Like they did with Dyer post Abu Dhabi '10


Edited by Avastrol, 29 July 2014 - 15:04.


#2854 aguri

aguri
  • Member

  • 136 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:17

Ferrari should send Fry to Haas or Marussia and every now and then pluck ideas from those teams when they come up with something good.



#2855 Lone

Lone
  • Member

  • 635 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 29 July 2014 - 15:36

Yes this story of the using Marussia to do the the research doesn't make much sense.First of all is the question why don't they have it from start... 
Second  Marussia doesn't have the same body which implies a different fluids dissipation so what will be done in Marussia is not directly applicable to Ferrari.


I have difficulties believing in Marussia beeing ahead of Ferrari in any single departement or even in any part manufacturing, due to their budget. I believe these "backmarker" teams are so far behind in all developments, even years behind, that their developments are all about copying (to get ahead of their nearest competitors).

I could of course be wrong but I believe their resources would be better spent trying to implement proven developments rather than spending resources on trying to lead development. Besides I don't believe Ferrari would like them to do anything they thought wouldn't be atleast in some way worth a possible benefit for Ferrari in the end.

I think it's very possible for Ferrari to try new developments on both Marussia and Sauber, even if the results wouldn't be totally conclusive. Mercedes benefits from data gathered by their customers, surely Ferrari are also looking for benefitting from their engine partners.

#2856 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,262 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:22

LOL.....i'm grateful that ferrari is able to find solutions and everything, but it kinda says alot about the state of affairs when a team that can barely spare £2000 an update came up with a solution before ferrari's engineers. kinda reminds me of that disastrous 2012 season when they had to ape sauber's entire rear of the car for an update because the original design was so shitty.

 

 

You know, back in 90 and 2000 Minardi was one of the most creative team, they always came up with innovative solution but their problem was they had not enough money to develop their ideas. So big teams like Ferrari, Mclaren, use their solutions sometimes, and they had the money to develop them.


Edited by Massa, 29 July 2014 - 16:25.


#2857 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,388 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 29 July 2014 - 16:52

Yes. You kick someone upstairs
 

Maybe they're doing it to Fry. Like they did with Dyer post Abu Dhabi '10

You cannot do that with everyone.

 

 

Lone Posted Today, 16:36   I have difficulties believing in Marussia beeing ahead of Ferrari in any single departement or even in any part manufacturing, due to their budget. 

 

Why? Money doesn't fix everything.

The next Newey will probably start in a small team.

Tyrrel designed the high nose that everyone later copied.


Edited by AlexS, 29 July 2014 - 16:55.


#2858 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,558 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 July 2014 - 17:25

How old/new is the Williams wind tunnel? Just asking because Im wondering if Fry took Ferrari on a merry go round. Thats all. 

As far as I know the following are the last 3 teams in the paddock who have built a new tunnel from scratch.
Sauber, Williams and Mercedes.

All other tunnels are upgrades/renovations/refurbishments from earlier builds.



#2859 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,702 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 29 July 2014 - 19:48

But Marussia had the cooling solution since Bahrain and improved it further for the last races, so can be the case Ferrari suggested these improvements as their own solution wasn't ready yet. But that would be a bit strange.

 

Interesting, I didn't know that.



Advertisement

#2860 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,528 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:49

So this "Marussia update" will give us 15hp?.

 

http://www.f1analisi...ione-della.html



#2861 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 573 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:14

So this "Marussia update" will give us 15hp?.

 

http://www.f1analisi...ione-della.html

Makes sense as it will allow us to push the eletrical systems harder without overheating them. Unfortunately we will still lack some top speed to the Merc teams...

 

Hoping for a race on a drying track tbh..



#2862 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:06

We can use that 15hp going up at Eau Rouge!



#2863 ApexMouse

ApexMouse
  • Member

  • 879 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 30 July 2014 - 13:29

Add a 0 on the end of that and it might be worth embracing hope. 



#2864 engineblock1

engineblock1
  • Member

  • 73 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 30 July 2014 - 14:34

I do not have hard time believing that minnows can be sometimes more innovative and wild with their ideas. They do not have much to lose in case an update fails, so they always tend to go for the wild & out of the box. Also I believe the engineers working with smaller teams are interested in building their profile to go the higher teams and better paying jobs, so they would push around the ideas to bigger extent to market themselves better on their resume. Contrary to smaller teams, engineers in bigger teams have to be cautious as a failed update/design would probably be more notice and if you are in Ferrari, you might see your head being called for pretty quickly.



#2865 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 3,979 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 30 July 2014 - 14:54

Detailed analysis of the F14 T from Mark Hughes & Piola, which also discusses it's shortcomings.--> http://www.motorspor...s-2014-secrets/

 

More here but a video, UK users only though--> http://www1.skysport...es-of-the-f14-t


Edited by CrucialXtreme, 30 July 2014 - 14:54.


#2866 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,881 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 July 2014 - 16:55

I read the Sky piece earlier today and if the 3 tenths down on aero is true then it's not too shabby. It's unfortunate that there is no in-season engine development.

Don't know who's bright idea that was.

#2867 turssi

turssi
  • Member

  • 1,172 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 30 July 2014 - 17:01

Not Ferrari's that's for sure.

#2868 wrcva

wrcva
  • Member

  • 971 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 July 2014 - 17:06

I am not sure if the veto power applies to this sort of thing but they do not use their supposed veto power much, do they? 



#2869 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,900 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 July 2014 - 18:41

I am amazed that the difference between engines manifests so clearly:

 

Topspeeds:

 

GP Hungary Hungaroring / Qualifying

 

average team performance 
1 Williams 315,3
2 Mercedes 309,8_____ -5,5
3 Force India_____ 308,2 -7,1
4 McLaren_____ 306,3 -9,0
5 Toro Rosso_____ 306,0 -9,3
6 Red Bull 305,5_____ -9,8
7 Lotus 305,2_____ -10,1
8 Sauber 305,2_____ -10,1
9 Caterham 302,5_____ -12,8
10 Ferrari 302,1_____ -13,2
11 Marussia 301,8_____-13,5

 

 

GP Germany Hockenheim / Qualifying

 

average team performance 
1 Williams 331,1____
2 Mercedes 328,6____ -2,4
3 Force India____ 327,3 -3,8
4 Toro Rosso____ 325,5 -5,6
5 McLaren 322,5____ -8,6
6 Marussia 321,8____ -9,2
7 Red Bull 320,8____ -10,3
8 Lotus 320,3____ -10,8
9 Ferrari 320,0____ -11,1
10 Sauber 320,0____ -11,1
11 Caterham 316,5____ -14,6

 

It show clearly first the Merc engined cars, then the Renault engined cars, finally the Ferrari powered cars. 

 

That also puts a little more into perspective how easy it was for Ricciardo to overtake Alonso on Sunday - besides the much newer tyres....


Edited by aditya-now, 30 July 2014 - 18:42.


#2870 Richard T

Richard T
  • Member

  • 1,116 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 30 July 2014 - 18:43

Monza will be awesome with the slow traction dependent corners and hard braking zones, oh and the straights!  :love:

 

:cry:


Edited by Richard T, 30 July 2014 - 18:44.


#2871 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 573 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 30 July 2014 - 19:27

When Lewis was overtaking at Hockenheim he hit 349kph.

 

We can dream.



#2872 turssi

turssi
  • Member

  • 1,172 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 30 July 2014 - 21:26

When Lewis was overtaking at Hockenheim he hit 349kph.

We can dream.


In my dream the F14 T did it by driving off a cliff.

#2873 Lister of Smeg

Lister of Smeg
  • Member

  • 397 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 30 July 2014 - 21:48

Looking at what Kimi did the last two years with Lotus and what Fernando has been doing the last 4 years I can now safely say that Ferrari is wasting the talents of two of the best drivers in F1 with a car that lacks power, front end grip and overall competitiveness. A shame really. As a Kimi fan I have always thought that FA is special and when Kimi was at Sauber and Fernando at Minardi they were outstanding AND I also think that with the right (and the same) car Kimi can deliver at the same level as Fernando. Please Ferrari, give both of them a proper car with a proper engine and a car that they both can set up right. They both deserve it.


Edited by Lister of Smeg, 30 July 2014 - 21:50.


#2874 Scuferrari

Scuferrari
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 30 July 2014 - 22:43

I am amazed that the difference between engines manifests so clearly:

 

Topspeeds:

 

GP Hungary Hungaroring / Qualifying

 

average team performance 
1 Williams 315,3
2 Mercedes 309,8_____ -5,5
3 Force India_____ 308,2 -7,1
4 McLaren_____ 306,3 -9,0
5 Toro Rosso_____ 306,0 -9,3
6 Red Bull 305,5_____ -9,8
7 Lotus 305,2_____ -10,1
8 Sauber 305,2_____ -10,1
9 Caterham 302,5_____ -12,8
10 Ferrari 302,1_____ -13,2
11 Marussia 301,8_____-13,5

 

 

GP Germany Hockenheim / Qualifying

 

average team performance 
1 Williams 331,1____
2 Mercedes 328,6____ -2,4
3 Force India____ 327,3 -3,8
4 Toro Rosso____ 325,5 -5,6
5 McLaren 322,5____ -8,6
6 Marussia 321,8____ -9,2
7 Red Bull 320,8____ -10,3
8 Lotus 320,3____ -10,8
9 Ferrari 320,0____ -11,1
10 Sauber 320,0____ -11,1
11 Caterham 316,5____ -14,6

 

It show clearly first the Merc engined cars, then the Renault engined cars, finally the Ferrari powered cars. 

 

That also puts a little more into perspective how easy it was for Ricciardo to overtake Alonso on Sunday - besides the much newer tyres....

 

 

 

I would put Renault and Ferrari even on power. We have 2 standout teams for Renault (low drag Toro Rosso, as always - mixing with the Merc powered cars ; and a slow Caterham) . Leaving those 2 teams aside we have all Ferrari and Renault cars within 2 km/h. Here with the short straight Red Bull's high drag was masked, they carry a lot of speed out of the corner. On longer straights they lose a lot. Pretty equal but both engines surely 30-40 hp down on Merc.


Edited by Scuferrari, 30 July 2014 - 23:02.


#2875 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,765 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted Yesterday, 01:40

Don't know who's bright idea that was.

 

 

Not Ferrari's that's for sure.

 

Yep. It's never Ferrari's fault. 



#2876 rodlamas

rodlamas
  • Member

  • 8,010 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted Yesterday, 11:55

"We need to improve at 360 degrees," Mattiacci said. 

 

Well, he needs to learn some mathematics to start with.



#2877 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,765 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted Yesterday, 11:58

"We need to improve at 360 degrees," Mattiacci said.

Well, he needs to learn some mathematics to start with.



He's referring to the coverage. I.e. that Ferrari need to improve and get on with it in all areas (not just half or one fourth). He didn't say "Ferrari need to do a 360 degree turn". Which is what you're on about.

#2878 RedRabbit

RedRabbit
  • New Member

  • 24 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted Yesterday, 12:19

Yep. It's never Ferrari's fault. 

 

In this context it really isn't.



#2879 Abranet

Abranet
  • Member

  • 115 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted Yesterday, 13:34

"We need to improve at 360 degrees," Mattiacci said. 

 

Well, he needs to learn some mathematics to start with.

:drunk:

 

a 360 degree review is a well established assessment system/term.  I

 

http://en.wikipedia....degree_feedback



Advertisement

#2880 JRodrigues

JRodrigues
  • Member

  • 306 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted Yesterday, 13:43

Well, actually he isn't all incorrect. He would have been if he said something like "we need to turn around 360º". What he basically is saying is that they need to improve all around. That's my reading of the declarations.



#2881 Pothead4Philosopher

Pothead4Philosopher
  • Member

  • 533 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted Yesterday, 14:09

All Mattiacci is saying/doing: he is giving some management jargon to chew on that means absolutely nothing.

 

Of course he is 'doing' something, right? -- Or do we expect him to say: "F**k it, we have no ideas and we are hopelessly lost with modern technology until we can poach some dudes with working brains..."



#2882 Tuxy

Tuxy
  • Member

  • 949 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted Yesterday, 14:12

"We need to improve at 360 degrees," Mattiacci said. 

 

Well, he needs to learn some mathematics to start with.

 

The Ferrari Formula 1 team requires a "360-degree" improvement..."

 

:wave: 



#2883 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,121 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted Yesterday, 14:25

...giving some management jargon to chew on that means absolutely nothing.

 

 

That´s the impression I get too. But to be fair, it´s very common in F1  :p

 

This is totally off-topic, but that´s one of the things that always manages to embarrass me just by seeing someone do.

 

I really feel terrible when I see/hear someone use empty jergon. Why? because I can´t avoid thinking in my head all his/her audience KNOWS that what he´s saying means absolutely nothing relevant, while I also get the feeling the speaker thinks for himself "this will stick" while he´s actually making a fool of himself in the eyes of everyone competent. Can´t shake that idea of my head when someone´s doing it in public environment, and makes me feel bad for him/her and I would like to vanish from the place myself to avoid feeling bad pittying the speaker. Think I won´t ever become an executive, I´m medically limited to get there  :lol:



#2884 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,189 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted Yesterday, 14:27

Best tracks to judge for engines are coming up with Spa and especially Monza.



#2885 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,000 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted Yesterday, 14:27

Dimi PAPADOPOULOS‏@f1enigma·1 min
Ferrari announces that, as of today, Luca Marmorini, Director of the Engine and Electronics department, is leaving the company.

edited to add: actually, would have been better to have stuck this here in this thread.

http://forums.autosp...t/#entry6829423

Oh well!

Edited by SophieB, Yesterday, 14:32.


#2886 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted Yesterday, 18:07

I would put Renault and Ferrari even on power. We have 2 standout teams for Renault (low drag Toro Rosso, as always - mixing with the Merc powered cars ; and a slow Caterham) . Leaving those 2 teams aside we have all Ferrari and Renault cars within 2 km/h. Here with the short straight Red Bull's high drag was masked, they carry a lot of speed out of the corner. On longer straights they lose a lot. Pretty equal but both engines surely 30-40 hp down on Merc.

Keep in mind that Kimi was the only driver not reaching 300km/h in the Hungarian qualifying. I dunno if something was wrong with his PU or if it was downtuned



#2887 fisssssi

fisssssi
  • Member

  • 1,002 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted Yesterday, 20:07

Keep in mind that Kimi was the only driver not reaching 300km/h in the Hungarian qualifying. I dunno if something was wrong with his PU or if it was downtuned

 

It's because he was out in Q1 without having a run on the soft tyres. He would have broken 300km/h if he had runs in Q2 or Q3.



#2888 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted Yesterday, 20:35

It's because he was out in Q1 without having a run on the soft tyres. He would have broken 300km/h if he had runs in Q2 or Q3.

But the point was that he was still slower than other drivers whom didn´t reach Q2 or Q3 either.

He also had a quicker last sector and higher speed at the finishline but lost out on the topspeed. 

There are only 2 possible answers to that, he had either more drag (downforce, but then he should have been quicker in S2) or his engine (PU) lacked power against the others. 



#2889 NoSanityClause

NoSanityClause
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: May 14

Posted Yesterday, 20:47

But the point was that he was still slower than other drivers whom didn´t reach Q2 or Q3 either.

He also had a quicker last sector and higher speed at the finishline but lost out on the topspeed. 

There are only 2 possible answers to that, he had either more drag (downforce, but then he should have been quicker in S2) or his engine (PU) lacked power against the others. 

Because the fact that the same team that paid a hefty sum to have him back and is working constantly to deliver new updates to adapt the car to his liking will sabotage him just for fun, is more likely than Kimi having a slow qualy lap.



#2890 MotorsportFerrari

MotorsportFerrari
  • New Member

  • 3 posts
  • Joined: July 14

Posted Yesterday, 21:09

http://www.f1technical.net/news/19550

 

It is now official. I would love to see engineers from Merc though.



#2891 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,229 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted Yesterday, 23:06

But the point was that he was still slower than other drivers whom didn´t reach Q2 or Q3 either.
He also had a quicker last sector and higher speed at the finishline but lost out on the topspeed. 
There are only 2 possible answers to that, he had either more drag (downforce, but then he should have been quicker in S2) or his engine (PU) lacked power against the others.

Maybe he didn't do a great job in S2? You act like these guys are robots or something.

#2892 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted Today, 07:26

Because the fact that the same team that paid a hefty sum to have him back and is working constantly to deliver new updates to adapt the car to his liking will sabotage him just for fun, is more likely than Kimi having a slow qualy lap.

Why don´t you try to give an proper answer instead? I what to know the explanation to why he was so slow on the straight when he exited the last corner faster than the Marussias and Caterhams



#2893 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted Today, 07:39

Because he backed off at the start/finish line? His lap was done and he started his inlap.

Could be he had a very bad exit on the last corner of his outlap, which hampered him down the straight of the timed lap.

 

Wouldn't read to much into it. He just did a bad lap. If he was so much down on engine power we would've heard.



#2894 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted Today, 08:43

Because he backed off at the start/finish line? His lap was done and he started his inlap.

Could be he had a very bad exit on the last corner of his outlap, which hampered him down the straight of the timed lap.

 

Wouldn't read to much into it. He just did a bad lap. If he was so much down on engine power we would've heard.

He hardly backed off on his hotlap... He couldn´t have had a bad exit as he was quicker at the finishline than the others (Marussias & Caterhams)

I don´t have any other explanation than his Ferrari had the worst acceleration from 250km/h to 300km/h in a straightline of all cars on the grid



#2895 NoSanityClause

NoSanityClause
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: May 14

Posted Today, 08:58

Why don´t you try to give an proper answer instead? I what to know the explanation to why he was so slow on the straight when he exited the last corner faster than the Marussias and Caterhams

Because he was so slow.

 

There's your proper answer. If the only proper explanation for you is that Ferrari is sabotaging him, then the problem is not on my side.



#2896 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,346 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted Today, 09:06

But the point was that he was still slower than other drivers whom didn´t reach Q2 or Q3 either.

He also had a quicker last sector and higher speed at the finishline but lost out on the topspeed. 

There are only 2 possible answers to that, he had either more drag (downforce, but then he should have been quicker in S2) or his engine (PU) lacked power against the others. 

 

You said it yourself, he had more downforce than others who failed in Q1.

 

The reasons why he was not quicker in S2:

  • He ran on prime tyres, IIRC. The others would have been on options.
  • He did a poor lap - seven tenths slower than Alonso, IIRC


#2897 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted Today, 09:28

Because he was so slow.

 

There's your proper answer. If the only proper explanation for you is that Ferrari is sabotaging him, then the problem is not on my side.

He was slow on the straight and had the worst acceleration because of bad driving, is that what you´re saying?

Sabotage or not, it´s a fact that his car was the slowest in a straight line. Taking into account that he wanted to do another try in qualifying

but was denied that, there is a reason to suspect something fishy is going on. 



#2898 Lone

Lone
  • Member

  • 635 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted Today, 11:52

IIRC didn't he loose power on the straights during FP3? Maybe they didn't have time to fix the problem for Q.

#2899 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 378 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted Today, 12:08

He hardly backed off on his hotlap... He couldn´t have had a bad exit as he was quicker at the finishline than the others (Marussias & Caterhams)

I don´t have any other explanation than his Ferrari had the worst acceleration from 250km/h to 300km/h in a straightline of all cars on the grid

Outlap: Bad exit at last corner, slow over start/finish, low top speed on his hotlap (topspeed you've read in the data)

Hotlap: Good exit at last corner, fast at start/finish (the speed in you've read in the data) but back off after start/finish because hotlap is done and the inlap starts. Again low top speed at the straight.

 

That's possible, right? Could also declare a part of the 0,7 difference to Alonso.

As a Kimi fan I see nothing fishy about that qualy. It was a bad lap, they thought it was good enough, they gambled, they lost. Happend before and will happen again, be it with Kimi or Alonso.


Edited by JeePee, Today, 12:10.