Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 12 votes

Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part II


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3953 replies to this topic

#51 MetallurgicalHedonist

MetallurgicalHedonist
  • Member

  • 540 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:06

They worked on making the car better. If Kimi doesn't like the changes even though the car is faster(as the other driver showed), then boo hoo, cuz that's on Kimi. Ferrari did exactly what they should have done.

People completely overrate how much a car is designed for specific drivers. Teams make cars which they think will go fast. Its then up to the drivers to make the most of it. That's what they are hired to do.

 

OK, to a quite extent it is probably true. Still, there must be something which suits to one driver better than to another...

 

For example:

 

Rosberg Sr. was kind of a Mansell-esque driver (you know, one of those "give-me-a-car-and-I-set-the-world-on-fire kinda driver). And in 1986, he came to a team which consisted of the two probably most "clinical" drivers there ever were in F1 (Lauda & Prost). So, they were maybe absolutely contrary to the driving style of Rosberg Sr.

 

And Rosberg was nowhere in that season in that car. If there was a considerable up-date on the car mid-season which suited to him, he was on pole, immediately (Hockenheim 1986).

 

Gee, he even looked worse compared to Prost than his successor at McLaren (Johansson) compared to Prost one year later! OK, Rosberg had overall more DNFs in 1986 than Johansson in 1987, but Johansson was even runner-up to Prost in the WDC table after the first three races! And overall, no way is Johansson "better" than Rosberg Sr.

 

So I think, there must be sometimes indeed situations where the car has been, in a certain way, built around some driver over the years which other drivers with maybe contrary driving styles are in deep trouble with...



Advertisement

#52 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,522 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:11

Conclusion: what works, works. I don't think there is 'a best way' through any corner.

 

This, and only this.

 

I always chuckle at those armchairs analyzing theoretical driving styles coming to funny conclusions and then downright refuse to accept the often very different reality.



#53 artista

artista
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,266 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:14

Who is Lorenzo de Luca?

My feeling? Jose Luis in Räikkönian version



#54 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 2,168 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:23

This, and only this.

 

I always chuckle at those armchairs analyzing theoretical driving styles coming to funny conclusions and then downright refuse to accept the often very different reality.

 

Well, I don't think that is very friendly. I think 'armchair'-analysts are the blood of the sport. Thank for your endorsement, though.

 

So armchairs: don't stop!



#55 MikeV1987

MikeV1987
  • Member

  • 1,572 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:40

Hopefully the next big updates in Spain help Kimi keep those tires heated, if not we might have to wait until Monaco & Canada to see if he gets better results on the supersofts. The speed is there, the consistency is not.


Edited by MikeV1987, 23 April 2014 - 08:45.


#56 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 7,058 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:44

My feeling? Jose Luis in Räikkönian version

 

 

:up: , even worse.

 

 

By the way, for all the Alonso fans here. The campaign to discredit Alonso from Leo Turrini has begun, avoid his blog.



#57 MikeV1987

MikeV1987
  • Member

  • 1,572 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:48

Good countermeasure to Coultard's butthurt article.


Edited by MikeV1987, 23 April 2014 - 08:48.


#58 Hanzo

Hanzo
  • Member

  • 722 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:52

I don't care one bit about article's and blogs, what it counts is what I see at the tracks.



#59 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 1,159 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:59

This, and only this.

 

I always chuckle at those armchairs analyzing theoretical driving styles coming to funny conclusions and then downright refuse to accept the often very different reality.

 

Well, teams take driving styles seriously, using the telemetry of the faster driver to maximize the performance of both drivers. They can see entry/exit strategies, braking points, acceleration points etc and then use it to improve both their cars.



Advertisement

#60 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 3,023 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:00

David Coulthard? You mean the guy with 10 years of F1 experience on his back who got beaten by his rookie teammate? Almost forgot about him. I wonder why. 



#61 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:11

I understand your fascination. Do you know that your head is 1,5 times bigger than you see it in the mirror?  Take a crayon, stand with your nose against a mirror, and draw a circumference of your head on the mirror. Then take six steps back. Logic and geometry would tell you that your head - being further away - should be smaller than the drawn 'head' in the reflection because of the distance. But you have to stand really far away from the mirror (probably more feet than your living room is big) to get the head not to fill the drawn head in the mirror anymore.

 

Off topic yes...

 

But the answer is in there, too. By using a wide lense or a tele-lense, our vision of the human head in a photographed can be fooled...

 

I feel very tempted to try, but I fear that my family might send me to a mental institution if they see me doing that! :lol:   They already think I am bad enough with my F1 fixation, let's not give them any more reasons to doubt my sanity  ;)

 

But it is an interesting thing, I had never realised but I will pay more attention to this in the future. The thing is that by comparing both pics, Alonso's head is much larger in proportion to his neck and body than Raikkonen's, but as you say it may be because of a different lense used by the photographer - or maybe Alonso has a large head!

 

 

Got it from Ferrari.com but I can apply some surgery on him if you want, but his fans may not like it :p

:lol:  Thanks, again it is very tempting, but let's leave it for a photoshopped thread  ;) 



#62 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,526 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:15

Well, teams take driving styles seriously, using the telemetry of the faster driver to maximize the performance of both drivers. They can see entry/exit strategies, braking points, acceleration points etc and then use it to improve both their cars.

This is very different to what people mean by 'driving style'.

You're just talking about finding new lines on the track to gain time.

#63 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 1,159 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:17


Both arrive to the apex, only one turns sharper (red line) than the other (green line). You are saying that the sharper direction change will make the red car lose more momentum due to friction. That's what I don't understand.
 
Yes, and if the corner is medium/fast speed, the car will also be more unbalanced mechanically and aerodynamically (the wings operate best while the car is going straight), reducing the ability of the car to corner with the maximum possible speed.
 

If you take the Q2s of Massa and Raikkonen (without incidents), you get that Raikkonen was able to beat Massa in 7, 5 and 4 occasions in 2007, 08 and 09 respectively. If we assume Raikkonen has the most optimal line, then the only reason he did not go faster than his team mate must be due to lack of precision (be car characteristics or whatever comes to mind). We also know how that went between Massa and Alonso, who in theory has sub-optimal lines.
 
The tires / tire utilization were affecting the outcome:
 
 
See qualify: 
 
2007: 8/9
2008: 6/12
 
BUT:
 
race fastest lap:
 
2007: 8/9
2008: 13/5
 
We can see that a balanced season (2007) turned to one-sided qualify in favor of Massa (2008)... and the 6/12 in Q 2008 was turned upside down to 13/5 in races in the same year. What do these mean? Did Kimi forget how to qualify in 2008 compared to 2007 and 2009? No it was just a problem heating the 08 tires.
 
Additionally how can a driver be so slow in qualify and so good in the race? (2008) ...Well, there is no inherent incompatibility if the "weakness" of heating the tires in Q (problematic Q lap) is turned into a race strength of better tire preservation / faster laptimes in the race. So, from that perspective, the "problematic lines" due to not generating heat (because the tires are hard), suddenly became the "lines-to-have" in the race.


#64 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:22

:up: , even worse.

 

 

By the way, for all the Alonso fans here. The campaign to discredit Alonso from Leo Turrini has begun, avoid his blog.

That campaign started in late 2009 and has been ongoing ever since.

 

One thing you have to give to Turrini, though: the guy has not tried to disguise his bias but has openly embraced it. He was the one who coined the term "Schumacher orphans and Raikkonen widows" to refer to his target audience, and has stayed loyal to his self-description. But seeing how profitable it has been for him (hand in heart, how many of us non-Italians had heard his name before late 2009?) I certainly don't blame him for that!



#65 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,948 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:28

I hate the fickleness of many F1 fans. It isn't helped by the braindead F1 media. Kimi has one race maybe which was a proper disaster, but crisis talk has begun. 



#66 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 1,159 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:29

This is very different to what people mean by 'driving style'.

You're just talking about finding new lines on the track to gain time.

 

The lines the drivers use are typically a consequence of their driving style. A driver can study the lines/acceleration/braking of another driver to see if there is a certain approach which is better than his.



#67 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:40

I hate the fickleness of many F1 fans. It isn't helped by the braindead F1 media. Kimi has one race maybe which was a proper disaster, but crisis talk has begun. 

I think that it is a matter of expectations, which I agree were very likely to be misled from day one.

 

In my view, Raikkonen is simply finding himself dealing with a difficult car. That has been a problem at Ferrari for some years now, as Massa can testify to; but some chose to believe that Massa's problems steamed mainly from his quality as a driver, and not from the car itself. Regardless how highly one rates Massa, it should have been obvious from past results that the guy can drive a good car to high standards and that if he was failing to do so there was something not right about the car itself. Somehow those people expected that putting another driver in that seat would miraculously solve all the issues - well, that was never to be the case. Ferrari has a lot of work to do, but in the past the pressure was relieved by shifting responsibility from the car development to Massa; hopefully now the underlying reason has been fully exposed and they will focus on the car itself. 



#68 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 2,168 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:45

The lines the drivers use are typically a consequence of their driving style. A driver can study the lines/acceleration/braking of another driver to see if there is a certain approach which is better than his.

 

I think another thing must be taken into consideration regarding driving style, and that is the wish to 'repeat with trust'. I mean: the classic way of taking a corner - brake in a straight line, ease off the brakes, steer in, apply the throttle in a gradual way, synchronised with the straightening of the steering wheel - is a way to 'repeat' with a fair level of 'trust' all during a lap and all during a race. During a race, a car's handling changes because of the emptying of the tank, the rubbering of the track and the wear off the tyres. With the classical approach you can sense during braking how grip there is, and during accleration from apex to exit you can feel how grip there is. If there is less grip than you expect during braking: you brake longer. If there's less grip during during accleration: you accelerate slower.

 

Some drivers - Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton - have an enormous confidence in feeling the cars grip midcorner. They trust that they can sense unexpected lower grip in the middle of the corner, so during the years that is what they rely on. It could however be, that these drivers perhaps brake EARLIER because they have less trust in 'feeling' the brake-distance. I am not saying this is the case, I am just saying it could be.

 

In the end, every driver trusts himself with certain lines. They feel they can repeat and repeat that same line. It could be that another line is quicker... it could be that they FELT themselve that that line could be quicker. But on the end of the day, he will rather repeat what he knows best.



#69 e34

e34
  • Member

  • 718 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:02

That campaign started in late 2009 and has been ongoing ever since.

 

One thing you have to give to Turrini, though: the guy has not tried to disguise his bias but has openly embraced it. He was the one who coined the term "Schumacher orphans and Raikkonen widows" to refer to his target audience, and has stayed loyal to his self-description. But seeing how profitable it has been for him (hand in heart, how many of us non-Italians had heard his name before late 2009?) I certainly don't blame him for that!

 

The problem is that whenever that target audience appears and Turrini opens his mouth, the only reasonable reaction is 

 

post-15065-Jack-Sparrow-RUN-gif-Imgur-Jo



#70 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,936 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:20

I think that it is a matter of expectations, which I agree were very likely to be misled from day one.

In my view, Raikkonen is simply finding himself dealing with a difficult car. That has been a problem at Ferrari for some years now, as Massa can testify to; but some chose to believe that Massa's problems steamed mainly from his quality as a driver, and not from the car itself. Regardless how highly one rates Massa, it should have been obvious from past results that the guy can drive a good car to high standards and that if he was failing to do so there was something not right about the car itself. Somehow those people expected that putting another driver in that seat would miraculously solve all the issues - well, that was never to be the case. Ferrari has a lot of work to do, but in the past the pressure was relieved by shifting responsibility from the car development to Massa; hopefully now the underlying reason has been fully exposed and they will focus on the car itself.

That's one possible interpretation. I however think that the recent posts and articles reflect the 'only as good as last race' phenomenon more than anything else.

#71 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:30

That's one possible interpretation. I however think that the recent posts and articles reflect the 'only as good as last race' phenomenon more than anything else.

Well, we are always going to get more than a fair share of that too, race after race, for both Alonso and Raikkonen.



#72 Fontainebleau

Fontainebleau
  • RC Forum Host

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:32

The problem is that whenever that target audience appears and Turrini opens his mouth, the only reasonable reaction is 

 

post-15065-Jack-Sparrow-RUN-gif-Imgur-Jo

;) I love this gif. Johnny Depp was really born to play Jack Sparrow, wasn't he?



#73 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,146 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:02

So I think, there must be sometimes indeed situations where the car has been, in a certain way, built around some driver over the years which other drivers with maybe contrary driving styles are in deep trouble with...


You mean like Kimi at mclaren in 2005 when he built his reputation? Can people go back now and say, wait a minute perhaps Kimi was not more talented than Montoya (like some people are still saying today that Alonso is not a better driver) it was the car that didn't suit him therefore making kimi look so much better in comparison..

IMO the truth is somewhere in between.. Both Montoya and Kimi, up until now, did not manage to outperform their teammates consistently enough to make the claim that they were more talented.. Dealing with adversity, switching teams and still keep the edge, is for elite drivers.. Senna jumped into that Mclaren and he immediately beat Prost.

#74 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 6,027 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:09

You mean like Kimi at mclaren in 2005 when he built his reputation? Can people go back now and say, wait a minute perhaps Kimi was not more talented than Montoya (like some people are still saying today that Alonso is not a better driver) it was the car that didn't suit him therefore making kimi look so much better in comparison..

IMO the truth is somewhere in between.. Both Montoya and Kimi, up until now, did not manage to outperform their teammates consistently enough to make the claim that they were more talented.. Dealing with adversity, switching teams and still keep the edge, is for elite drivers.. Senna jumped into that Mclaren and he immediately beat Prost.

we cant really compare drivers like that at all...for example Montoya was pretty much as good as Ralf, and Ralf could match Trulli who could match Alonso.,,,Häkkinen jumped on mclaren and was immediately faster than Senna :) Kimi himself said that 2005 mclaren didnt suit for Montoya althought neither did 2006 mclaren.


Edited by Vesuvius, 23 April 2014 - 12:10.


#75 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,146 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:24

we cant really compare drivers like that at all...for example Montoya was pretty much as good as Ralf, and Ralf could match Trulli who could match Alonso.,,,Häkkinen jumped on mclaren and was immediately faster than Senna :) Kimi himself said that 2005 mclaren didnt suit for Montoya althought neither did 2006 mclaren.


You lost me there. We were talking about jumping into a new team where the car has been built around the established driver. I said that this is a problem, however the cream rises to the top and it becomes less of an issue to some drivers who simply deal with it.

#76 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,526 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 23 April 2014 - 14:00

The lines the drivers use are typically a consequence of their driving style. A driver can study the lines/acceleration/braking of another driver to see if there is a certain approach which is better than his.

Its true that driving style will dictate what approach a driver *tends* to take for a corner, but the fact that drivers do look at other ways of approaching corners is one of the many things that makes this whole 'driving style' thing a bit murky and not nearly this black and white thing people here tend to to make it out to be. They all change their 'style' every year with every new car they drive and often make adjustments at each track or even from day to day based on track conditions. Even a tire change may necessitate a change in how you drive the car. Or a setup change. A driver might take different approaches to corners in qualifying than they will in the race.

When somebody says so and so is struggling because of their 'driving style', what they're really saying is so and so isn't doing a good job adapting. You seem to have this theory that drivers are all equal and what makes one perform better than the other is a matter of whether or not the car/package/track/whatever suits them or not and that just isn't true. The best drivers are the ones who adapt the best. Any driver that's been around for a while will have had to have driven many different types of cars in their career, from karts to F3 to F3000 or WSBR to early 2000's F1 during tire wars and V10's to control tires, high aero and V8's and then what we have now. Drivers don't just 'luck' through all this, getting cars that just happen to suit them all the time. They have to adapt. The best drivers do the best job of this and as they say 'the cream rises to the top'. The ones that cant do this as consistently don't tend to *do as well* consistently, unsurprisingly. Its not all just bad luck.

#77 DRSwing

DRSwing
  • New Member

  • 10 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 14:51

.....or maybe Alonso has a large head......
 


I don't know about that but his Chinese fans call him affectionately 大头(da tou) or 头哥 (tou ge) which means "large head" or "big or first brother". So some people do seem to think so, possibly :)

Btw, since I' m here, just like to thank the mods for attempting to keep this thread under control, tough job you have! And thanks also to Kosmos and Fontainebleau, I have always enjoyed reading your posts. You always provide good information about Fernando and are always respectful of other drivers, kudos!

#78 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 2,168 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 15:27

Its true that driving style will dictate what approach a driver *tends* to take for a corner, but the fact that drivers do look at other ways of approaching corners is one of the many things that makes this whole 'driving style' thing a bit murky and not nearly this black and white thing people here tend to to make it out to be. They all change their 'style' every year with every new car they drive and often make adjustments at each track or even from day to day based on track conditions. Even a tire change may necessitate a change in how you drive the car. Or a setup change. A driver might take different approaches to corners in qualifying than they will in the race.

When somebody says so and so is struggling because of their 'driving style', what they're really saying is so and so isn't doing a good job adapting. You seem to have this theory that drivers are all equal and what makes one perform better than the other is a matter of whether or not the car/package/track/whatever suits them or not and that just isn't true. The best drivers are the ones who adapt the best. Any driver that's been around for a while will have had to have driven many different types of cars in their career, from karts to F3 to F3000 or WSBR to early 2000's F1 during tire wars and V10's to control tires, high aero and V8's and then what we have now. Drivers don't just 'luck' through all this, getting cars that just happen to suit them all the time. They have to adapt. The best drivers do the best job of this and as they say 'the cream rises to the top'. The ones that cant do this as consistently don't tend to *do as well* consistently, unsurprisingly. Its not all just bad luck.

 

True. But I also feel that Michael Schumacher - surely one of the best - was compromised during his comeback because the new rules in F1 - and especially considering fuel and tyres. And Jim Clark - surely one of the best - was less dominating in the 3 litre F1 than he was in 1,5 litre times, if the comparison with Graham Hill is a trustworthy yardstick.

 

So good post, just a nuance.



#79 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,531 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 15:44

I find it amusing that some people are actually saying that the car is in no way made like Alonso would like it. He just gets in the car and and drives. At the same time he is considered one of the most hard working drivers spending countless of hours at the factory, simulator and with the engineers, but apparently not a single second of that time spent in making the car how Alonso would like it to be. The same people are saying that Alonso has no driving style, he just adapts. Yet for the past decade all the experts have been saying that Kimi and Fernando have totally different driving styles and want totally different things from their cars. Now don't get me wrong, I consider Alonso as one of the greatest drivers of all time, but there is a limit on how much BS you can stand reading. 



Advertisement

#80 Radion

Radion
  • Member

  • 881 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 15:48

A top-tier driver doesn't need special parts.

Hamilton complained about the brakes on his mercedes last year, how he couldn't brake as he wants/doesn't feel as good under braking. Pretty sure the team tried everything they could to help him out. (I have no information about whether they brought new parts for him though. Anyone?). Hamilton's still top tier, isn't he?

 

The point is, if you can help your driver, you do it. After all, you'll get paid back with more points at the end of the day.



#81 Kimble

Kimble
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 23 April 2014 - 15:55

The adaptation is very true when moving between different classes but at the peak of F1 that final few tenths you get from perfect set-up and the confidence that gives is a chasm. Look at Hamilton and his brakes, along with a number of other drivers he has teams change their supplier agreements so he can use his preferred brand.

You can only judge a drivers performance when they have had suitable bedding in time and the support of the team. This is why #2 drivers often look worse than they really are when playing second fiddle as their set-up range is partly determined by the #1 drivers preference.

The current noise around Kimi is very reminiscent of the period around Monaco the other year when his power steering feedback preferences were raised. Lots of talk of Lotus engineers losing their cool etc but when he got what he wanted he was bang right up there.

Every single TD I've heard said Kimi gives very good feedback. Not a lot but what he does say should be taken seriously.

I strongly suspect he has learnt his lesson at Ferrari the first time with set-up requests not being listened to so now he chooses to air them in public so the team has to respond.

#82 Architrion

Architrion
  • Member

  • 136 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 23 April 2014 - 16:12

:up: , even worse.

 

 

By the way, for all the Alonso fans here. The campaign to discredit Alonso from Leo Turrini has begun, avoid his blog.

 

Can you elaborate on this. please?



#83 mzvztag

mzvztag
  • Member

  • 389 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 16:31

Larger directional change = more kinetic energy converts to tire friction = more momentum lost = more time lost while the car is near the apex = more time lost as the car needs to regain its velocity (and of course you chew the tires).

 

Additionally, the car becomes unstable as the driver asks from the car to perform a sharp turn, due to weight transfer which pressurizes the external tires, suspension etc. The car is kind-of-useless in terms of being able to properly accelerate while the tires and suspensions are rebalancing themselves. Some times even the grip levels themselves fluctuate mid corner due to this rebalancing, depending the forces exerted during corner entry.

 

There are also some aero considerations but these affect mid and high speed corners. For example a very grippy car that performs a very sharp turn can actually lean on one side which upsets how the airflow goes under the floor. This was more the case like 10 years ago, rather than now where the car will simply slide. The aero package is also designed to operate on a straight line, so the less turning there is, the better the airflow is directed through the wings and bodywork => more df => faster cornering speeds. 

 

Large directional change doesn't have to amount to more time lost - you can simply take into account loss of speed due to the sharp turn and slow a little bit less and count on turning to slow you just that little bit to reach the marginal cornering speed.

If the tyres are durable enough, it would also provide benefits with tyre warming while not detracting from durability.

 

Handling the unstability when performing a sharp turn can be easily handled by a good driver, it's nothing critical and there is no turn in F1, not even in Monaco, that would cause such an instability that couldn't be handled.

The aerodynamic effect lasts only for a fraction of a second and is completely neglectible - it can easily be counterbalanced.

 

Grip levels could indeed vary through the corner because of the imperfections in the tarmac surface finish, varying inclination of the corner or the surface conditions varying during the corner, but that also has nothing to do with the turn in.

 

It indeed depends on the car characteristics which end of the car will break out first if the friction limit is exceeded, front or back, but it's something that a good driver couldn't handle.



#84 mzvztag

mzvztag
  • Member

  • 389 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 16:37

Well, teams take driving styles seriously, using the telemetry of the faster driver to maximize the performance of both drivers. They can see entry/exit strategies, braking points, acceleration points etc and then use it to improve both their cars.

 

Yes but not because of catering to some unchangeable styles but because of finding the way to change those styles to maximize the performance.

"A driver's style" is a myth, an excuse for those who couldn't adapt properly.

 

If Kimi's lines were so perfect in the 2008 races (which they weren't, he was quick only in certain circumstances - usually when the leaders had no more reasons to push - and not in the whole races - to compare, just check for example who scored the fastest lap in Hungary or Belgium 1991 and how much slower the winner was), why didn't he use different lines in qualifying, the ones that were suited to the need of extracting the maximum speed in the one lap shots? It's not that difficult.


Edited by mzvztag, 23 April 2014 - 16:48.


#85 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,531 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 16:39

"A driver's style" is a myth, an excuse for those who couldn't adapt properly.

:D



#86 mzvztag

mzvztag
  • Member

  • 389 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 16:47

:D

 

Let me be more precise: an unchangeable, set-in-stone driving style is a myth. A new "style", if you want to call it that way, can easily be evolved and implemented by a good driver. It can be fundamentally different from the previous or original one.

Do you think that Fangio used the same technique and style while driving a 1955 Mercedes, a 1956 Lancia-Ferrari and a 1957 Maserati? Those cars, while built to the same formula, had extremely different power delivery characteristics, suspension geometry and handling, different tyres and brakes. The 1957 maserati was more-less neutral, so he could have used the four wheel drift. The 1955 Mercedes was understeering and required a different technique. The Lancia-Ferrari was relatively ill-handling and again required a different approach. Yet he was the champion with all three.


Edited by mzvztag, 23 April 2014 - 16:54.


#87 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,531 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:01

Let me be more precise: an unchangeable, set-in-stone driving style is a myth. A new "style", if you want to call it that way, can easily be evolved and implemented by a good driver. It can be fundamentally different from the previous or original one.

Do you think that Fangio used the same technique and style while driving a 1955 Mercedes, a 1956 Lancia-Ferrari and a 1957 Maserati? Those cars, while built to the same formula, had extremely different power delivery characteristics, suspension geometry and handling, different tyres and brakes. Yet he was the champion with all three.

You jusr want stop calling driver's setup preference driving style. Sure everybody adapts, but don't fundamentally change the way they like their cars to be set up.



#88 mzvztag

mzvztag
  • Member

  • 389 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:08

You jusr want stop calling driver's setup preference driving style. Sure everybody adapts, but don't fundamentally change the way they like their cars to be set up.

 

It's one thing the way they like to set up the car and another thing to change the car characteristics not to make it faster but to suit the driver's preferences (or prejudices).

 

Imagine a car A, a very fast one. The driver C set it up the way he likes and drives it near the maximum of its limits. The driver D sets it up to his liking but it's not behaving as he expects so, instead of adjusting to the characteristics of the car, even if they are not in accordance to his preferences, he asks the team to build the car B, that is slower in its ultimate performance limits but the driver D is able to drive it faster than the car A because it fits more to his preferences.

 

Yet, he will be slower than the driver C in the car A because the driver C is able to extract more from the ultimately faster machine. So yes, the best drivers change their "style" fundamentally, when needed.


Edited by mzvztag, 23 April 2014 - 17:16.


#89 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,531 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:11

It's one thing the way they like to set up the car and another thing to change the car characteristics not to make it faster but to suit the driver's preferences (or prejudices).

 

Imagine a car B, a very fast one. The driver C set it up the way he likes and drives it near the maximum of its limits. The driver D sets it up to his liking but it's not behaving as he expects so, instead of adjusting to the characteristics of the car, even if they are not in accordance to his preferences, he asks the team to build the car B, that is slower in its ultimate performance limits but the driver D is able to drive it faster than the car A because it fits more to his preferences.

 

Yet, he will be slower than the driver C in the car A because the driver C is able to extract more from the ultimately faster machine.

I think you've got your alphabets mixed up.



#90 mzvztag

mzvztag
  • Member

  • 389 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:17

I think you've got your alphabets mixed up.

 

Yes, it should say "Imagine a car A....", I corrected the original post  :blush:

But I'm sure the point was not that hard to read.


Edited by mzvztag, 23 April 2014 - 17:18.


#91 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 1,531 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:42

Yes, it should say "Imagine a car A....", I corrected the original post  :blush:

But I'm sure the point was not that hard to read.

No, but you can make up crude generalisations all you want. That's just not how life works.

 

Lets say there is a driver that like a fast steering rack and soft springs. Team is building a new car and decide to implement these features since it makes all the sense.  Why wouldn't they build a car with their driver's preferences taken into consideration? That's just how things have always been racing. Why bother building a fast rack and a stiff springs if they won't need them. Suddenly there is another driver who prefers a slow rack and firm springs. They don't have them at hand, because they didn't need them before and now decide to manufacture them. That's just how things have always been racing. You don't design and keep a stock of different parts that you are not going to use. The cars are prototypes. There are no after market bolt on parts kits.

 

Sure you can draw up conclusions that one driver is super magical at adapting to a car built to his preference and the other is just a lazy, drunk, unmotivated, uninterested, car breaker who is in it just for the money just because he prefers a different setup. 


Edited by Gorma, 23 April 2014 - 17:43.


#92 andrea303

andrea303
  • Member

  • 106 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:51

oh dear...

 

"A driver's style" is a myth, an excuse for those who couldn't adapt properly.

 

This myth is a myth.

 

 

 

Imagine a car A, a very fast one. The driver C set it up the way he likes and drives it near the maximum of its limits. The driver D sets it up to his liking but it's not behaving as he expects so, instead of adjusting to the characteristics of the car, even if they are not in accordance to his preferences, he asks the team to build the car B, that is slower in its ultimate performance limits but the driver D is able to drive it faster than the car A because it fits more to his preferences.

 

Yet, he will be slower than the driver C in the car A because the driver C is able to extract more from the ultimately faster machine. So yes, the best drivers change their "style" fundamentally, when needed.

 

This analogy doesn't work because it's the drivers who drive the cars and not the other way around.

If Ferrari finds a better setup for Kimi like; new suspension, engine map tweaks, better steering input & output (power steering) - why would the car's overall performance go down in result?  

 

On many occasions some of the new aero updates aren't working and they slow the car down but that's why they test new parts in practices with only one driver. 

 

It's very naive to think that if Kimi starts to match Alonso, then Alonso's pace goes down instead of Kimi actually improving himself and getting a more balanced car to work with.

 

Since you like alphabets so much, heres an equation:

X*Y=XY = results

 

where:

X=car's evolution process

Y=driver setup & specified modifications


Edited by andrea303, 23 April 2014 - 18:00.


#93 Astro

Astro
  • Member

  • 333 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 17:55

 

Yes, and if the corner is medium/fast speed, the car will also be more unbalanced mechanically and aerodynamically (the wings operate best while the car is going straight), reducing the ability of the car to corner with the maximum possible speed.

 

Yes, OK. But how? How does the friction of a directional change translates in a loss of momentum that is higher than easing on entry? I am not trying to make a better point. I am just trying to understand yours.

 

Regarding the (un)balance, I simply can't agree. I think an abrupt change of direction in entry have a minimal and very short effect in the balance of the car compare to corrections of steering and speed while cornering, which is the main issue IMO (grippy tires).

 

 

The tires / tire utilization were affecting the outcome:
 
 
See qualify: 
 
2007: 8/9
2008: 6/12
 
BUT:
 
race fastest lap:
 
2007: 8/9
2008: 13/5
 
We can see that a balanced season (2007) turned to one-sided qualify in favor of Massa (2008)... and the 6/12 in Q 2008 was turned upside down to 13/5 in races in the same year. What do these mean? Did Kimi forget how to qualify in 2008 compared to 2007 and 2009? No it was just a problem heating the 08 tires.
 
Additionally how can a driver be so slow in qualify and so good in the race? (2008) ...Well, there is no inherent incompatibility if the "weakness" of heating the tires in Q (problematic Q lap) is turned into a race strength of better tire preservation / faster laptimes in the race. So, from that perspective, the "problematic lines" due to not generating heat (because the tires are hard), suddenly became the "lines-to-have" in the race.

 

I was focusing in Q2s, not Q3s (in Q3 each driver had a different fuel level and can't be compared).

 

Heating tires is a possible explanation. But was Kimi having problems heating the tires even in the heat of Spain, Bahrain, Malaysia, Italy, Singapore, etc.?  I would think the tires would not be much of a problem for Kimi on these tracks. Otherwise, better pack the stuff and try flipping burgers for a living.

 

A simpler explanation is that Massa is very fast at one lap (Rob Smedley has always claimed that quite proudly), but unable to replicate it as the race progresses and conditions change, as Nemo1965 pointed out.

 

Leaving aside who edged who by an infinitesimal amount, it doesn't change my view that Kimi's optimal lines must have had a very marginal importance in edging (or not) Massa during qualifying. If they had, then Kimi would have been clearly ahead, at least, in a good number of Q2s, as sub-optimal Alonso was. Not only was not that the case, but Kimi was actually behind in a good number of them.

 

If you take only the scorching hot races and average their Q2s out, Kimi's optimal driving style is nowhere to be found. I am sure he drives like butter in a toast, but  I don't think it matters much.

 

(Note: I don't care which driver is better, faster or funnier. I know Kimi can be very fast. I still remember in 2007 when the best strategy McLaren had was to cover Kimi in the first lap, because as soon as Kimi found himself in front, he would pull the atomic clock out his butt and the race was over).



#94 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 4,146 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:01

Seriously gtfo with the suboptimal nonsense. Lol.

Ever think about the speed that a driver carries thru the corners, the braking points . A lot of things influence a lap time and more often than not the driving style has nothing to do with it.

What a driving style does, if you stick to it and don't adapt, is be slow or fast depending on the different regulations or variables that every driver has to deal with.

Edited by discover23, 23 April 2014 - 18:08.


#95 skyfolker

skyfolker
  • Member

  • 227 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:24


If Kimi's lines were so perfect in the 2008 races (which they weren't, he was quick only in certain circumstances - usually when the leaders had no more reasons to push - and not in the whole races

Nothing wrong with Raikkonen's race pace in 2008-he was almost always quick and in clean air one of the quickest.



#96 kimster89

kimster89
  • Member

  • 625 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:27

Kimi better start delivering results or the heat will become really big. And again those lack of motivation claims.. :down: :down:



#97 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,771 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:28

This is a lot of theoretical mental jerk-offing. Just as an important time-saving piece of information, who here has driven at least a cart competitively for a season?

 

Cheers.



#98 darkkis

darkkis
  • Member

  • 839 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 18:45

Hamilton complained about the brakes on his mercedes last year, how he couldn't brake as he wants/doesn't feel as good under braking. Pretty sure the team tried everything they could to help him out. (I have no information about whether they brought new parts for him though. Anyone?). Hamilton's still top tier, isn't he?

 

The point is, if you can help your driver, you do it. After all, you'll get paid back with more points at the end of the day.

This :up:  Kimi isn't the only one who has needed "special parts"..



#99 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 2,168 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 19:34

This is a lot of theoretical mental jerk-offing. Just as an important time-saving piece of information, who here has driven at least a cart competitively for a season?

 

Cheers.

 

I think this is very unfriendly and seriously offtopic. Raikkonen himself has said - and I gather that the Autosport-newsreport was true - that his driving style may be a problem. So therefore I think it is totally legit and on-topic to discuss driving styles.

 

Regarding the argument that driving a cart or any vehicle in competition gives you the divine right to say something about driving technique: at the end of the 60's Mark Donohue visited the Chevrolet-factory's skidpad, because Penske, his employer, wanted to enter a Camaro in the Trans-Am. As Donohue writes: 'I thought I was pretty hot stuff, from winning all those Trans-Am races, but I was humbled right away when the top R&D engineer, Jim Musser, went out on the circular skidpad and turned slightly faster laptimes than I did.(...) It showed me I could make some improvements in smoothness.'

 

If a Indy-winner, Grand Prix-driver (third place on his debut), and multiple Canam-champion can have the humilty to learn something from a desk-jockey, why not you?


Edited by Nemo1965, 23 April 2014 - 19:45.


Advertisement

#100 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 1,983 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 19:38

Nothing wrong with Raikkonen's race pace in 2008-he was almost always quick and in clean air one of the quickest.

Proven by all those fastest laps.