Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 12 votes

Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part II


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3953 replies to this topic

#101 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 19:50

Proven by all those fastest laps.

....and this is where some of you are wrong.. Race pace is not indicative of the driver's fastest lap of the race.. It is the time it takes a driver to complete an entire race. The tires and track conditions will change throughout the race and the feel for the car will also change. Consistent lap times, factoring in all of these changes, is what determines pace.. not a perfect race in a competition held in a parallel universe where the operating window for Kimi's style preference is as wide as the sun.

 

Other fans also make the mistake to compare lap times between teammates when the two are in two different strategies or facing different conditions throughout the race.. and now with driving to delta and tire conservation this becomes a nightmare for those who insist in making such comparisons or draw some conclusions from it.


Edited by discover23, 23 April 2014 - 20:04.


Advertisement

#102 MikeV1987

MikeV1987
  • Member

  • 1,382 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 19:53

I read driving style a myth according to some here... Have some of you armchair experts just start watching motorsports ffs?


Edited by MikeV1987, 23 April 2014 - 20:01.


#103 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,285 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 23 April 2014 - 19:54

Driving style a myth? :rotfl:



#104 REDalert

REDalert
  • Member

  • 224 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:02

A top-tier driver doesn't need special parts.

At the beginnig of the season, the whole car was build from Alonsos "special parts", if we follow that logic.

Alonso can have those same new parts if he just wants, but why would he. He had the opportunity to give feedback when the original front was designed and build.



#105 MikeV1987

MikeV1987
  • Member

  • 1,382 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:06

@jrwb63

 

Moronic posts, that must mean Hamilton isn't a top tier driver by your standards then. Referring to his preference of carbon industries brakes over brembos last season.


Edited by MikeV1987, 23 April 2014 - 20:08.


#106 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:16

Hey.. Lewis also wears his cap a certain way.. and got it custom made just for him.. :p



#107 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,745 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 23 April 2014 - 20:52

I think this is very unfriendly and seriously offtopic. Raikkonen himself has said - and I gather that the Autosport-newsreport was true - that his driving style may be a problem. So therefore I think it is totally legit and on-topic to discuss driving styles.

 

Regarding the argument that driving a cart or any vehicle in competition gives you the divine right to say something about driving technique: at the end of the 60's Mark Donohue visited the Chevrolet-factory's skidpad, because Penske, his employer, wanted to enter a Camaro in the Trans-Am. As Donohue writes: 'I thought I was pretty hot stuff, from winning all those Trans-Am races, but I was humbled right away when the top R&D engineer, Jim Musser, went out on the circular skidpad and turned slightly faster laptimes than I did.(...) It showed me I could make some improvements in smoothness.'

 

If a Indy-winner, Grand Prix-driver (third place on his debut), and multiple Canam-champion can have the humilty to learn something from a desk-jockey, why not you?

I think you misunderstood my intent and apologize if you were offended. Though comparing members of this forum with a top R & D engineer at a car manufacturer is a stretch, I was mostly wondering how anyone without actual track experience could write such detailed descriptions of racing lines and of what works and doesn't in auto racing. I know I would pay more attention to the posts of people that have actually done some racing. But yeah, if there are some top theoretical racing experts here, I guess there's something to be learned from them too.



#108 REDalert

REDalert
  • Member

  • 224 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 23 April 2014 - 21:01

Seriously gtfo with the suboptimal nonsense. Lol.

Ever think about the speed that a driver carries thru the corners, the braking points . A lot of things influence a lap time and more often than not the driving style has nothing to do with it.

What a driving style does, if you stick to it and don't adapt, is be slow or fast depending on the different regulations or variables that every driver has to deal with.

Drivers basic driving style comes from spine, it's all about reflexes, you just don't change it and adapt to any kind of car. 

Other drivers driving style suits wider range of car features than others, but the basic driving style is in your genes.

Off course you can learn new things and improve yourself, but that is not the same thing as changing your driving style. 



#109 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 21:08

Drivers basic driving style comes from spine, it's all about reflexes, you just don't change it and adapt to any kind of car. 

Other drivers driving style suits wider range of car features than others, but the basic driving style is in your genes.

Off course you can learn new things and improve yourself, but that is not the same thing as changing your driving style. 

I am neutral on this to be honest. My point is not so much about a particular driving style but how to be fast around the circuit.



#110 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 2,523 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 21:12

My two cents on a different matter: 

 

Cars are always adjusted to drivers' preferences, and that's no different in Alonso's case either. He's been with the team for the last 4 years, I think they have a pretty good idea what he wants from the car setup-wise. Whereas Kimi just arrived, and he has rookie Spagnolo on his side whom he never worked with before. It's expected they need time to understand each other regarding what Kimi needs and what can or can't be adjusted in the car to suit him better. 

 

Now about driving styles, you can't expect to tell a guy who's accustomed to his own style to adapt to different driving in 3 weeks. Like Kimi said, there's no magic switch to change his driving and getting the car sorted in terms of setup to his needs is a far more realistic approach. Regardless, he'll probably be forced to make some adjustments to his technique to some degree. 



#111 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,285 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 23 April 2014 - 22:01

Excellent post Cyanide.  I agree with all of it. :up:



#112 mardmarium

mardmarium
  • Member

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 22:33

Talking about driving styles and cars built around drivers, one can think that if the F14 T has been built around Alonso, then the RB10 has been built around Vettel, but the German doesn´t seem to be especially comfortable with his car, at least not compared to his teammate.

 

If I think of the testing days in Bahrain, at the beginning I couldn´t understand why Alonso was driving with Raikkonen tailor made chassis, I mean, they needed the most accurate information and the logical thing would’ve been for Alonso to drive with his chassis (apparently adapted from the very beginning to his driving style). But for some reason, Ferrari decided that Alonso was a reliable source in order to get valuable data for analysis although he were driving, for the first time, with his teammate chassis (adapted to a completely different driving style according to many people).

 

This is what Ferrari said before starting the two days of testing “Driving for Scuderia Ferrari will be Fernando Alonso, who will try to help the team make the much needed improvements that Stefano Domenicali has strongly requested. Fernando will face a particularly intense programme, with work focused on adressing certain areas of weakness of the car while continuing to develop the stronger points that have been demonstrated so far” (I really couldn´t understand what Ferrari were doing so I tried to be informed in some way)

 

http://http://formul...-alonso-bahrain

 

Really, in Alonso case I don´t know why people have so clear what his driving style is, I have serious doubts about it because he basically seems to drive in order to maximize the tools he is given. It seems to be Ferrari opinion as well.



#113 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,492 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 23 April 2014 - 22:46

Have anyone read Will Buxton's blog today on Vettel's and Raikkonen's problems? I thought it was highly interesting. I've got mixed feelings re Buxton's credibility and his opinions/analysis but thought at least it made some sense.

 

http://willthef1jour...styling-it-out/

 

 

There is another factor in the re-education of the Formula 1 driver in 2014 and it has to do with braking. Brake-by-wire has been introduced for this season as part of the new energy recovery systems. The MGU-K has replaced KERS in harnessing kinetic energy from the brakes and the resistance experienced under braking at the rear has increased tremendously.

 

In the past, as with all single-seaters, braking was most efficient at high speed and with a clean hard initial compression being gradually softened. This is because braking works best in the initial phase thanks to the downforce created at speed. But in 2014 this has changed. Talking to the drivers, it seems that the initial braking pressure required this season has dropped tremendously, to something like 10 bar. That said, the braking force applied to the wheels is as strong if not stronger than in the past due to the resistance created by the MGU-K. As such it is not uncommon to see the rear locking under braking. In the old days, a fairly easy solution for this once brake bias had been shifted might be to simply blip the throttle, but in 2014 you can’t do that because blipping will affect the level of power harvested.

 

Why is this important? Because a driver has to ensure that his Energy Store is correctly filled each and every lap. Crucially, failure to get it filled doesn’t just affect him when using the stored energy as a boost. In 2014 the energy harnessed is utilised throughout the lap by being fed back in, before also being used in driver-determined bursts as boost. Failure to top up the Energy Store thus means an insurmountable drop in lap time on the following lap.

 

Watching Raikkonen on track, his lines in the corners and his style of braking make me question whether this isn’t the single biggest thing holding him back. I first noticed it in Malaysia and it has continued at every track since then, but especially in the slow corners Kimi’s lines and crucially braking points are not only different to all his rivals, but also inconsistent (think Turn 1 and the Bottas incident in Bahrain). For the most part however it isn’t about braking early as to my mind Raikkonen more often seems to actually go much deeper into the corner than his rivals. This would seem to point towards an unhappiness with the severity of the braking and the likelihood of rear locking, thus too soft an application of the anchors. When he brakes too late or too softly, his mid-corner minimum speed is higher than his rivals because he isn’t slowing the car down enough, but he is then understeering due to the increased speed and, unable to get the car turned into the apex, is almost sliding the F14T through the corner.

 

In some ways it’s reminiscent of a karting style of cornering, although less direct and a bit sloppier, and in 2014 F1 it is not effective. He’s losing time on exit and through not braking hard enough seems not to be getting his Energy Store levels up to where they need to be, thus impacting his overall laptime. In addition, he struggles with the new harder compound tyres. In the first instance he can’t get his tyres turned on, in no small part due to his issues under braking, but then, through the understeer, he is overworking the fronts.

 

Raikkonen is also struggling with Ferrari’s power steering. He likes a very responsive and direct system. Every minuscule movement on the wheel he wants to be directly related to movement of the fronts. Alonso isn’t so fussed, he can handle a small amount of what is termed “play” with his wheel, a slightly softer feel if you like. The Finn needs it to be direct… again, like a kart. It affected him at Lotus and was an issue it took the team a long time to resolve, and he won’t be comfortable in the F14T until it is fixed.

 

 

 

 

 

If this is true I think Raikkonen is screwed for the season. Can't deal with braking, can't deal with steering, his braking issues multiplicate in the harvesting of ERS energy... ugh. Major brain rewiring required. Can't see him doing it to an extent he could start beating Alonso. Although it was close in Bahrain (but for some reason miles off in China).


Edited by noikeee, 23 April 2014 - 22:56.


#114 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 23 April 2014 - 23:37

Very good analysis by Will.

#115 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,285 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 24 April 2014 - 00:16

I agree it seems very accurate at face value. 



#116 skyfolker

skyfolker
  • Member

  • 195 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 00:24

aray


...in race no power delivery problem was stated....

No,there was power delivery problem on at least one occasion:"What the hell is happening on the straight, why? There was no power whatsoever."


Edited by skyfolker, 24 April 2014 - 00:25.


#117 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 00:34

Both Kimi and Alonso have been surprised by the lack of the power of the F14T in the opening laps. Alonso also made reference to this over the radio in Bahrain.. 


Edited by discover23, 24 April 2014 - 00:34.


#118 currupipi

currupipi
  • Member

  • 1,235 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:43

really hard to say something here without getting clobbered, as an alonso fan i wish and expect him to beat kimi but i dont have enough knowledge to get into these theoretical discussions about optimal and suboptimal styles and how in a perfect world( whatever that means) kimis style is faster,, who cares?  we dont have a perfect world , they race under the rules they have now and that is all that we can compare, will these rules hinder more one driver than the other , Maybe? does it matter? if they come out with these super soft tires and kimi starts beating alonso  am i supposed to be happy because in a perfect world with hard tires alonso would be faster, what kind of stupidity is this.

 

drivers have to drive with what the rules allow them to be given and they either adapt to those rules or they can go home , there are many waiting for the chance, . is this fair to all , maybe not, but since when is life fair, Am i supposed to feel sorry for a guy who gets 20 million and he cant get heat into the tires and how unfair this is to him , or to the guy who destroys them because he drives like a maniac, if they cant get the job done with the rules they have why dont they try working for a living..

 

curious that the weekend kimi feels  more comfortable with the car  the first ferrari finishes 9th and the weekends where he is more uncomfortable the first ferrari finishes  4th, 4th, and 3rd

 

some here are really doing a diservice to kimi with their 20000 reasons why even though he is getting beaten at this time, he is actually better.

Cut the guy some slack , he will either come to grips with what he has to drive or he will go home, will this mean anything, will it somehow ruin his legacy, come on the guy had some great years at mclaren and wdc with ferrari.What does it mean if alonso beats him this year, all that it means is that in 2014 alonso beat him , no more no less,



#119 Astro

Astro
  • Member

  • 325 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:06

This is a lot of theoretical mental jerk-offing. Just as an important time-saving piece of information, who here has driven at least a cart competitively for a season?

 

Cheers.

 

Does it matter? I drive karts for fun and compete among friends (not for a while now), like many others here in this forum I guess. In regards to driving, I thought mzvztag's post was really interesting (maybe doesn't work, but it would be great to try something new).

 

Personally, I was trying to understand Alexandros' point, but the conversation in this thread keeps leaning towards explaining Kimi's competitiveness, which I am not that interested about. I am interested in the way they drive, what's the key for them to go fast around a track, rather than theorizing why sometimes a particular driver fail to perform to our idolized levels.


Edited by Astro, 24 April 2014 - 03:17.


Advertisement

#120 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,259 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:46

When Kimi was at Ferrari in 2007, did we hear him struggling with the car? No, because the car was a very quick and fundemtnally designed car that was quite made. 2008 was the same thing; although that season, Kimi had tire struggles and the updates made Felipe quicker once that happened. 2009 was a different story because that car was quite a bad one in the beginning of the season, frankly, much like now, I assume.

 

This Ferrari of 2014 is most certainly not the same Ferrari we had in 2007; I think that 2007 team would bulid a better car than the today's current crop.


Edited by George Costanza, 24 April 2014 - 03:48.


#121 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 2,523 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:45

If this is true I think Raikkonen is screwed for the season. Can't deal with braking, can't deal with steering, his braking issues multiplicate in the harvesting of ERS energy... ugh. Major brain rewiring required. Can't see him doing it to an extent he could start beating Alonso. Although it was close in Bahrain (but for some reason miles off in China).

 

He's in a bad spot, yes, but I don't think it's catastrophic. I believe there's a lot more to be unlocked from the setup of the car, he just didn't have an awful lot of time for it since he missed a lot of mileage both in testing and in China. 

 

Since he has a very narrow operating window, Kimi is especially lost when he can't work on finding an optimum setup. 



#122 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 1,043 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:59


Yes, OK. But how? How does the friction of a directional change translates in a loss of momentum that is higher than easing on entry? I am not trying to make a better point. I am just trying to understand yours.
 
Imagine you drive your car at 60 miles per hour and you want to do a sudden U-turn. Can it maintain its 60 mph speed? If not, why?
 
This is the same principle, with a lesser angle (say 50-90 degrees instead of 180).
 
In addition, the effect is not as fast as we'd like (like turning suddenly for two tenths of a second). Alonso spends, sometimes, over 1 second with the steering being vertical or beyond vertical.
 
 

Heating tires is a possible explanation. But was Kimi having problems heating the tires even in the heat of Spain, Bahrain, Malaysia, Italy, Singapore, etc.?  I would think the tires would not be much of a problem for Kimi on these tracks. Otherwise, better pack the stuff and try flipping burgers for a living.
 
Bridgestones behave differently with heat than, say, Michelins or Pirelli.
 

A simpler explanation is that Massa is very fast at one lap (Rob Smedley has always claimed that quite proudly), but unable to replicate it as the race progresses and conditions change, as Nemo1965 pointed out.
 
A simpler explanation that would not explain why the difference was chaotic in 2008 only, versus 2007 and 2009. If its a property of Massa, surely it wasn't a property of his only for one year. 
 

I know I would pay more attention to the posts of people that have actually done some racing. But yeah, if there are some top theoretical racing experts here, I guess there's something to be learned from them too.
 
There are numerous ex-F1 drivers commenting for TV. Everyone was blaming the brake by wire system for Kimi's lockups instead of realizing that it's the problematic grip levels that lead to lockups. Sure the system will always need finetuning because its complicated but this and locking when the speed of the car goes down / is in low-df, should instantly ring a bell that it's all about grip. 
 
On the issue of lines, the overlay of Kimi's car vs other cars and then claiming Kimi got the wrong line because he went wider - and then have Kimi exit the corner first despite their "theories" / "predictions", should be adequate proof that even the word of ex-f1 drivers is not necessarily the most reliable. 
 

Talking about driving styles and cars built around drivers, one can think that if the F14 T has been built around Alonso, then the RB10 has been built around Vettel, but the German doesn´t seem to be especially comfortable with his car, at least not compared to his teammate.
 
The cars built around drivers etc is an overrated issue. Unless a car has been specifically designed to accomodate a very small driver (where, say, a Jenson Button wouldn't fit), the theory is generally wrong. A team has certain priorities:
 
a) Shaving weight
b) Lowering the center of gravity
c) Making the most efficient aeropackage that produces the best amount of downforce with the least amount of drag
 
...these should make any driver faster.
 
However, as the situation is right now with the tires, there are some things in case c where the issue of "special components" can come into place.
 
If a team, say, realizes that their car can't work the tires and is losing like 1s per lap due to this issue, then they can go for suboptimal aero parts that can increase downforce beyond the current parts but that also carry a disproportional drag penalty. Under normal circumstances, such parts would not even be considered. Two high-df / high-drag wings that provide two tenths increase in laptime due to their increased downforce but lose half a second due to their increased drag, have a net effect of minus three tenths and, as such, are not raceable. But if you can manage to use the "special parts" to get you into the tire window, then even with this +0.3s you might gain something like 1s for actually making the tires work (which you couldn't previously do). In a way, special parts can, sometimes, be a suboptimal workaround to fix a problem, not some mind-blowing new technology that is leeching factory resources in favor of one driver.
 

Have anyone read Will Buxton's blog today on Vettel's and Raikkonen's problems? I thought it was highly interesting. I've got mixed feelings re Buxton's credibility and his opinions/analysis but thought at least it made some sense.
 
Many of the problems he is describing are tire problems masquarading as brake-by-wire issues etc.

Edited by Alexandros, 24 April 2014 - 06:02.


#123 aray

aray
  • Member

  • 2,573 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:17

:up: , even worse.

 

 

By the way, for all the Alonso fans here. The campaign to discredit Alonso from Leo Turrini has begun, avoid his blog.

 

i was expecting this...i bet he himself never thought that time would come so soon.. :smoking:
 



#124 Astro

Astro
  • Member

  • 325 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:14

OK, I will reply first these ones and then ask few more things about the first point later (more interesting).

 

Bridgestones behave differently with heat than, say, Michelins or Pirelli.

 

It don't see how that matters. Both drivers had the same tires and in a hot track the tires should have been up to temperature, so no heating issues should be expected. What is it now about the Bridgestones tires that made difficult for Kimi to show how much faster was than Massa in a hot track?

 

IMO, this is going further and further in the direction of Kimi needing a car with rails to be able to go fast, which I think it is a bit of a disservice to him. Wouldn't be easier to think than Massa was just as fast over one lap?

 

A simpler explanation that would not explain why the difference was chaotic in 2008 only, versus 2007 and 2009. If its a property of Massa, surely it wasn't a property of his only for one year.

 

The difference where? I am talking about Q2s, where they should be running all out in practically identical conditions. You said that the problem was heating the tires. I said to take the hot tracks and see, in average, if that gave  you a considerable difference in their laptimes in the three years they were together.

 

If Massa is faster by 0.050s or Kimi is faster by 0.090, how can driving style be much of a difference? Just going slightly wide or braking slightly late in one corner would have a bigger effect in laptimes than that. Either they are both entangled or there is simply more than one way to go around a track without losing time.

 

Assuming Kimi's driving style is the best, it would still have a very marginal effect compare to doing a clean lap, without errors, entering at the right speed and angle, applying brake, etc. IMO, saying Kimi is potentially better than X or Y or Z driver because he has an awesome driving style and that difference in performance is down to the level of peachiness is simply wrong.



#125 Adelaide

Adelaide
  • Member

  • 205 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:33

So, with Kimi himself admitting that his driving style is part of the problem how can improve the situation? Obviously time in the F14T is the best solution but unlike say a tennis player, he can't do laps in the car to practice between races. Would he be able to work on his issues in the simulator?

#126 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 1,043 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:47


It don't see how that matters. Both drivers had the same tires and in a hot track the tires should have been up to temperature, so no heating issues should be expected. What is it now about the Bridgestones tires that made difficult for Kimi to show how much faster was than Massa in a hot track?
 
It's not only about the tire temp of a tire but also about the temp differential with the track itself and how the compound performs given this differential. A hard bridgestone compound will, traditionally, tend to suck at high track temps and this means less grip, which means the driver may not be able to generate the necessary friction to make the tire work - unless he's hard on the tire. And that's where the driving style comes into play. A softer bridgestone may not have the same problem (grip + tire warming).
 
So while the track temp may be +10C, the grip levels may be low (as a consequence of the higher temp), leading a "soft" driver outside the window because he's not stressing the tires enough.
 
This might not happen with a different brand or a softer bridgestone compound.
 

IMO, this is going further and further in the direction of Kimi needing a car with rails to be able to go fast, which I think it is a bit of a disservice to him. Wouldn't be easier to think than Massa was just as fast over one lap?
 
That wouldn't adequately explain the performance variations betweeen 2007+9 vs 2008.
 

The difference where? I am talking about Q2s, where they should be running all out in practically identical conditions.
 
I'm taking Q3 results because Q2 results are simply to be in the top-10, so they could be less than optimal if a driver believes they can get through with not doing a second attempt for example. Yes, fuel adjusted it's better, but it's too much waste of time in performing data analysis of this sort, when 2007 had the same qualify format (q2 no fuel / q3 fuel). So why would the performance be so different between Kimi/Massa in 2007 compared to 2008? It's not like in 2007 fuel didn't play a role.
 

You said that the problem was heating the tires. I said to take the hot tracks and see, in average, if that gave  you a considerable difference in their laptimes in the three years they were together.
 
A sound plan but you also have to factor in the "bridgestones-that-slide-too-much-on-hot-track" effect. In the Michelin/Bridgestone era the gap in FP3 and Q was considerably narrowed (if Bridgestone runners were ahead in FP3) or extended (if Michelin runners were ahead in FP3) when track temps went up in Q.
 
And then you'd also have to account for the mid-season changes in 2008 to the car, which had a significant impact on how Kimi drives, which co-incides with the summer period which we are talking about. So in spring and autumn the car was more to Kimi's preference while in the summer period it had the developments that didn't really work for Kimi.
 
So when you compile the data (after spending a significant amount of time to do this), you end up with so many extra variables that isolating tire warming issues becomes problematic.
 

Assuming Kimi's driving style is the best, it would still have a very marginal effect compare to doing a clean lap, without errors, entering at the right speed and angle, applying brake, etc. IMO, saying Kimi is potentially better than X or Y or Z driver because he has an awesome driving style and that difference in performance is down to the level of peachiness is simply wrong.
 
It's more of a soft vs hard approach. The "best" label is only reserved for when drivers can actually pick their tires from a large variety of tires so that a soft driver can pick the soft tire and "kill it" performance wise.
 
Example: Barichello 2003. He does a test in the spring for new Bridgestone tires. He likes them and Bridgestone brings them for the next races in the summer. These tires were soft and Schumi was destroying them / couldn't race with them. Barichello was doing great but Schumi with the hard tire + his aggressive approach was slower than Bari with the soft tire + his softer approach. Schumi struggled for a couple of races, Ferrari spotted the "problem" and Bridgestone reverted to harder rubbers that suited Schumi. (hint: Nobody complained back then for Schumi not being a top driver because he had a problem adapting to the soft tires with which Barichello was performing much better)
 
If a driver can make a soft tire that gives like 0.5 - 0.7s/lap last for the race he's good. A hard driver which will be unable to drive the softer tire (because he's destroying it) will be at a significant handicap compared to him. Even if the style of the hard driver can "squeeze" another 2 tenths per lap from the harder tire due to abusing it, it'll still be problematic compared to the softer driver. The only way the hard driver can come on top is if the soft driver doesn't have access to soft tires. Otherwise the inefficiency of the hard style + hard tire combo will show.
 
As a rule of thumb, the optimum is to have the softest possible tyre that can last you for the race because that's the fastest approach. Lap time differences in going -1 softer compound are too big. A driver with clean lines who does not stress his tires much will then be able not only to qualify good (as the tires will be up to temp easily) but also do a great race.
 
In the pirelli era this clear-cut relation has become "weirder" by introducing tires that were on an accelerating degradation curve, thus confusing teams with their strategies*. And now it's becoming even more weird due to the fact that the harder a tire is, the more it slides, thus having the potential to degrade faster. Recent tires have messed up the, otherwise, straightforward modus operandi of the teams. Lack of proper testing hasn't allowed the teams to understand their issues either.
 
* With hindsight, Kimi should run more sets of soft tires instead of mediums in China. The mediums didn't work except for a couple laps. The gains of having a faster compound that actually works would negate the extra pitstop. However that was impossible to know without Kimi doing long runs in Friday and taking Alonso's data as the optimal for Kimi's strategy (didn't work).

Edited by Alexandros, 24 April 2014 - 09:07.


#127 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,808 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:02

So, with Kimi himself admitting that his driving style is part of the problem how can improve the situation? Obviously time in the F14T is the best solution but unlike say a tennis player, he can't do laps in the car to practice between races. Would he be able to work on his issues in the simulator?

simulator is one solution yes, and then fp1 during gp weekends to test new parts...he will also test two days after barcelona.



#128 Astro

Astro
  • Member

  • 325 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:07

 

 
 
It's not only about the tire temp of a tire but also about the temp differential with the track itself and how the compound performs given this differential. A hard bridgestone compound will, traditionally, tend to suck at high track temps and this means less grip, which means the driver may not be able to generate the necessary friction to make the tire work - unless he's hard on the tire. And that's where the driving style comes into play. A softer bridgestone may not have the same problem (grip + tire warming).
 
So while the track temp may be +10C, the grip levels may be low (as a consequence of the higher temp), leading a "soft" driver outside the window because he's not stressing the tires enough.
 
This might not happen with a different brand or a softer bridgestone compound.
 
 
 
That wouldn't adequately explain the performance variations betweeen 2007+9 vs 2008.
 
 
 
I'm taking Q3 results because Q2 results are simply to be in the top-10, so they could be less than optimal if a driver believes they can get through with not doing a second attempt for example. Yes, fuel adjusted it's better, but it's too much waste of time in performing data analysis of this sort, when 2007 had the same qualify format (q2 no fuel / q3 fuel). So why would the performance be so different between Kimi/Massa in 2007 compared to 2008? It's not like in 2007 fuel didn't play a role.
 
 
 
A sound plan but you also have to factor in the "bridgestones-that-slide-too-much-on-hot-track" effect. In the Michelin/Bridgestone era the gap in FP3 and Q was considerably narrowed (if Bridgestone runners were ahead in FP3) or extended (if Michelin runners were ahead in FP3) when track temps went up in Q.
 
And then you'd also have to account for the mid-season changes in 2008 to the car, which had a significant impact on how Kimi drives, which co-incides with the summer period which we are talking about. So in spring and autumn the car was more to Kimi's preference while in the summer period it had the developments that didn't really work for Kimi.
 
So when you compile the data (after spending a significant amount of time to do this), you end up with so many extra variables that isolating tire warming issues becomes problematic.
 
 
 
It's more of a soft vs hard approach. The "best" label is only reserved for when drivers can actually pick their tires from a large variety of tires so that a soft driver can pick the soft tire and "kill it" performance wise.
 
Example: Barichello 2003. He does a test in the spring for new Bridgestone tires. He likes them and Bridgestone brings them for the next races in the summer. These tires were soft and Schumi was destroying them / couldn't race with them. Barichello was doing great but Schumi with the hard tire + his aggressive approach was slower than Bari with the soft tire + his softer approach. Schumi struggled for a couple of races, Ferrari spotted the "problem" and Bridgestone reverted to harder rubbers that suited Schumi. (hint: Nobody complained back then for Schumi not being a top driver because he had a problem adapting to the soft tires with which Barichello was performing much better)
 
If a driver can make a soft tire that gives like 0.5 - 0.7s/lap last for the race he's good. A hard driver which will be unable to drive the softer tire (because he's destroying it) will be at a significant handicap compared to him. Even if the style of the hard driver can "squeeze" another 2 tenths per lap from the harder tire due to abusing it, it'll still be problematic compared to the softer driver. The only way the hard driver can come on top is if the soft driver doesn't have access to soft tires. Otherwise the inefficiency of the hard style + hard tire combo will show.
 
As a rule of thumb, the optimum is to have the softest possible tyre that can last you for the race because that's the fastest approach. Lap time differences in going -1 softer compound are too big. A driver with clean lines who does not stress his tires much will then be able not only to qualify good (as the tires will be up to temp easily) but also do a great race.
 
In the pirelli era this clear-cut relation has become "weirder" by introducing tires that were on an accelerating degradation curve, thus confusing teams with their strategies*. And now it's becoming even more weird due to the fact that the harder a tire is, the more it slides, thus having the potential to degrade faster. Recent tires have messed up the, otherwise, straightforward modus operandi of the teams. Lack of proper testing hasn't allowed the teams to understand their issues either.
 
* With hindsight, Kimi should run more sets of soft tires instead of mediums in China. The mediums didn't work except for a couple laps. The gains of having a faster compound that actually works would negate the extra pitstop. However that was impossible to know without Kimi doing long runs in Friday and taking Alonso's data as the optimal for Kimi's strategy (didn't work).

 

 

stumped.gif

 

I give up. May the tires be with him.  ;)



#129 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 1,715 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:15

Have anyone read Will Buxton's blog today on Vettel's and Raikkonen's problems? I thought it was highly interesting. I've got mixed feelings re Buxton's credibility and his opinions/analysis but thought at least it made some sense.

 

http://willthef1jour...styling-it-out/

 

 

 

Geez... after following F1 for about three decades, I thought I had it finally worked out. Now I can throw everything I knew about braking - not that it amounted to much - out of the window....

 

Very interesting stuff, thanks for posting!



#130 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,619 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:46

Nostradamus Hakkinen has spoken again.

 

He went from:

 

“I think Kimi’s driving style is really perfect for these turbo cars. Alonso pushes too hard, so I think Kimi will beat him.”

 

 
to:
 
"Kimi has problems and they need to be solved,"

"Alonso is simply dominating Kimi. It's not a small difference. After four races Kimi needs to do better. The car can't be so bad that it is impossible to compete with Alonso. Kimi has to improve, and he has to do it quickly."

"The simulator is a good alternative, so you can try out all sorts of settings,"

"However, I don't want to give Kimi advice, because I assume that a World Champion will find the right solution for his problems so he can beat his team-mate and deliver decent performances in the Drivers' Championship."
 

 

 

Too bad Alonso pushes too hard, maybe if he was more gentle.......


Edited by kosmos, 24 April 2014 - 12:47.


#131 mzvztag

mzvztag
  • Member

  • 366 posts
  • Joined: August 13

Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:03

 

 
 
It's not only about the tire temp of a tire but also about the temp differential with the track itself and how the compound performs given this differential. A hard bridgestone compound will, traditionally, tend to suck at high track temps and this means less grip, which means the driver may not be able to generate the necessary friction to make the tire work - unless he's hard on the tire. And that's where the driving style comes into play. A softer bridgestone may not have the same problem (grip + tire warming).
 
So while the track temp may be +10C, the grip levels may be low (as a consequence of the higher temp), leading a "soft" driver outside the window because he's not stressing the tires enough.
 
This might not happen with a different brand or a softer bridgestone compound.
 
 
 
That wouldn't adequately explain the performance variations betweeen 2007+9 vs 2008.
 
 
 
I'm taking Q3 results because Q2 results are simply to be in the top-10, so they could be less than optimal if a driver believes they can get through with not doing a second attempt for example. Yes, fuel adjusted it's better, but it's too much waste of time in performing data analysis of this sort, when 2007 had the same qualify format (q2 no fuel / q3 fuel). So why would the performance be so different between Kimi/Massa in 2007 compared to 2008? It's not like in 2007 fuel didn't play a role.
 
 
 
A sound plan but you also have to factor in the "bridgestones-that-slide-too-much-on-hot-track" effect. In the Michelin/Bridgestone era the gap in FP3 and Q was considerably narrowed (if Bridgestone runners were ahead in FP3) or extended (if Michelin runners were ahead in FP3) when track temps went up in Q.
 
And then you'd also have to account for the mid-season changes in 2008 to the car, which had a significant impact on how Kimi drives, which co-incides with the summer period which we are talking about. So in spring and autumn the car was more to Kimi's preference while in the summer period it had the developments that didn't really work for Kimi.
 
So when you compile the data (after spending a significant amount of time to do this), you end up with so many extra variables that isolating tire warming issues becomes problematic.
 
 
 
It's more of a soft vs hard approach. The "best" label is only reserved for when drivers can actually pick their tires from a large variety of tires so that a soft driver can pick the soft tire and "kill it" performance wise.
 
Example: Barichello 2003. He does a test in the spring for new Bridgestone tires. He likes them and Bridgestone brings them for the next races in the summer. These tires were soft and Schumi was destroying them / couldn't race with them. Barichello was doing great but Schumi with the hard tire + his aggressive approach was slower than Bari with the soft tire + his softer approach. Schumi struggled for a couple of races, Ferrari spotted the "problem" and Bridgestone reverted to harder rubbers that suited Schumi. (hint: Nobody complained back then for Schumi not being a top driver because he had a problem adapting to the soft tires with which Barichello was performing much better)
 
If a driver can make a soft tire that gives like 0.5 - 0.7s/lap last for the race he's good. A hard driver which will be unable to drive the softer tire (because he's destroying it) will be at a significant handicap compared to him. Even if the style of the hard driver can "squeeze" another 2 tenths per lap from the harder tire due to abusing it, it'll still be problematic compared to the softer driver. The only way the hard driver can come on top is if the soft driver doesn't have access to soft tires. Otherwise the inefficiency of the hard style + hard tire combo will show.
 
As a rule of thumb, the optimum is to have the softest possible tyre that can last you for the race because that's the fastest approach. Lap time differences in going -1 softer compound are too big. A driver with clean lines who does not stress his tires much will then be able not only to qualify good (as the tires will be up to temp easily) but also do a great race.
 
In the pirelli era this clear-cut relation has become "weirder" by introducing tires that were on an accelerating degradation curve, thus confusing teams with their strategies*. And now it's becoming even more weird due to the fact that the harder a tire is, the more it slides, thus having the potential to degrade faster. Recent tires have messed up the, otherwise, straightforward modus operandi of the teams. Lack of proper testing hasn't allowed the teams to understand their issues either.
 
* With hindsight, Kimi should run more sets of soft tires instead of mediums in China. The mediums didn't work except for a couple laps. The gains of having a faster compound that actually works would negate the extra pitstop. However that was impossible to know without Kimi doing long runs in Friday and taking Alonso's data as the optimal for Kimi's strategy (didn't work).

 

 

BS, my friend. When I find the time (I'm not at home these days), I'll dismount your false claims.


Edited by mzvztag, 24 April 2014 - 13:48.


#132 sheepgobba

sheepgobba
  • Member

  • 1,092 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:05

Nostradamus Hakkinen has spoken again.

 

He went from:

 

 
to:
 

 

 

Too bad Alonso pushes too hard, maybe if he was more gentle.......

 

He really made me chuckle, haha. 



#133 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,133 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:24

Both Kimi and Alonso have been surprised by the lack of the power of the F14T in the opening laps...

 

I wonder why that is. Despite the last updates in power unit it seems to be happening. The pass Bottas made on Räikkönen in the start/finish straight starting lap 2 was ridiculous. He was like 0.4 behind, no DRS yet, and he breezed past and was fully ahead into turn 1.

 

In this case it didn´t matter as Bottas was way faster anyway, but it´s going to cost Ferrari drivers to get traffic they should´t have to deal with if they can´t solve it.



#134 photon

photon
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:29

My two cents on a different matter: 

 

Cars are always adjusted to drivers' preferences, and that's no different in Alonso's case either. He's been with the team for the last 4 years, I think they have a pretty good idea what he wants from the car setup-wise. Whereas Kimi just arrived, and he has rookie Spagnolo on his side whom he never worked with before. It's expected they need time to understand each other regarding what Kimi needs and what can or can't be adjusted in the car to suit him better. 

 

Now about driving styles, you can't expect to tell a guy who's accustomed to his own style to adapt to different driving in 3 weeks. Like Kimi said, there's no magic switch to change his driving and getting the car sorted in terms of setup to his needs is a far more realistic approach. Regardless, he'll probably be forced to make some adjustments to his technique to some degree. 

 

I understand that Ferrari want to minimize bringing in foreign mercenaries etc.  And I respect the idea of fostering their own.  They don't owe anything to anyone.  If they want to only have Italian engineers or whatever then all the power to them.  However, I think it was a big mistake anyway to put a rookie engineer on a new driver.  Would have obviously been much safer either to bring back Dyer or bring in Mark Slade for at least the transition.

 

Now they're in a situation where they've had technical problem after technical problem (i.e., not enough testing time) and are clearly nowhere near where they need to be on setup.  It's not doing Spagnolo or Italian engineers in general any favors to have Raikkonen floundering around out there lost on setup.  If they'd had seasoned pro then the number of variables would've been dramatically reduced and Raikkonen on track a lot faster.  Could've brought in the new guy the season after.



#135 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,133 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 24 April 2014 - 13:30

 

It's more of a soft vs hard approach. The "best" label is only reserved for when drivers can actually pick their tires from a large variety of tires so that a soft driver can pick the soft tire and "kill it" performance wise.
 

 

Look, it´s easy to see you know what you´re talking about, but that´s not the game anymore. There won´t be 6-7 dry weather compounds to pick from and 4 FP sessions anymore like in 2004. The game is different, and if you can´t perform at this game it is your problem.

 

The game won´t change, tyres will be what Pirelli pick and you have to live with those. if you can´t become good at that, it is a metter of being better at this indeed. 



#136 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:44

Alex you are also forgetting about the implications related to the energy recovery systems and how is the power generated .. According to Will, Kimi's driving style is not generating and storing enough electric power to be used in the following lap.
This means that the same identical car can have less power for Kimi than for Alonso because of ERS power managment and braking differences.

These cars are a completely different this year and how you drive them is very important apparently.

#137 skyfolker

skyfolker
  • Member

  • 195 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 14:46

Heating tires is a possible explanation. But was Kimi having problems heating the tires even in the heat of Spain, Bahrain, Malaysia, Italy, Singapore, etc.?

On tracks you mentioned,only Singapore(Monza was wet race,lower temperatures).


Funny though,while speed trap might not be the accurate display of car setup,Raikkonen was 11km/h faster than Alonso(the biggest difference between teammates),no wonder he was lacking downforce.

http://184.106.145.7...eedTrap_V01.pdf

 



 

 



#138 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,736 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:06

Prost hit the nail in the head last year.

 

Smart, Adaptable drivers will thrive with 2014 technology.

 

http://www.jamesalle...014-technology/

 

“It has always been the case (that F1 drivers need to be intelligent to succeed)” said Prost. “But when you have a new technology like this one you have to work on it. You have to be more involved. Driving style could well have a big influence. So you have to adapt to that; it’s not going to be easy. If you do not understand, then you will struggle.”



#139 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 1,043 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:30

Look, it´s easy to see you know what you´re talking about, but that´s not the game anymore. There won´t be 6-7 dry weather compounds to pick from and 4 FP sessions anymore like in 2004. The game is different, and if you can´t perform at this game it is your problem.

 

The game won´t change, tyres will be what Pirelli pick and you have to live with those. if you can´t become good at that, it is a metter of being better at this indeed. 

 

Indeed, the situation is what it is. If a soft driver goes into a hard-tire season, he may struggle. And if a hard driver goes into a soft season, he may struggle also. That's the nature of the game. 

 


Alex you are also forgetting about the implications related to the energy recovery systems and how is the power generated .. According to Will, Kimi's driving style is not generating and storing enough electric power to be used in the following lap. 
This means that the same identical car can have less power for Kimi than for Alonso because of ERS power managment and braking differences. 

 

If Alonso is decelerating more to charge the KERS system, then this means he must also use more of it to accelerate back to speed. And given that energy recovery doesn't have 100% efficiency (far from it), it could be an "issue".



Advertisement

#140 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,285 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 24 April 2014 - 15:51

BS, my friend. When I find the time (I'm not at home these days), I'll dismount your false claims.

 

"Dismount the false claims"... waiting to hear back from you for sure. :p

 

 

 

Very well articulated post Alexandros.  Nothing false there it seems. 



#141 Astro

Astro
  • Member

  • 325 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 24 April 2014 - 17:43

 

On tracks you mentioned,only Singapore(Monza was wet race,lower temperatures).


Funny though,while speed trap might not be the accurate display of car setup,Raikkonen was 11km/h faster than Alonso(the biggest difference between teammates),no wonder he was lacking downforce.

http://184.106.145.7...eedTrap_V01.pdf

 



 

 

I was trying to make a bigger point.

 

Not saying this because of you, but I am tired of repeating the same thing many times over only to get symposiums about tires (see above).

 

Is driving style that important to make fast lap times? How do you measure it? Where can we see that more clearly?

 

My example was a bad one, apparently. You cannot use Kimi and Massa for a biblical number of reasons with the ability to reproduce. So then, let's take whatever two team mates in a perfect sunny day, not too hot and not too cold, just right, with the perfect tire (best one you can remember for gorgeous days). And then let's try to put numbers on that questions.

 

That's all I wanted to discuss. But no longer. It is a bit draining. Maybe someone will have the answer to that at some point. :)



#142 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 2,523 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 18:46

Prost hit the nail in the head last year.

 

Smart, Adaptable drivers will thrive with 2014 technology.

 

http://www.jamesalle...014-technology/

 

“It has always been the case (that F1 drivers need to be intelligent to succeed)” said Prost. “But when you have a new technology like this one you have to work on it. You have to be more involved. Driving style could well have a big influence. So you have to adapt to that; it’s not going to be easy. If you do not understand, then you will struggle.”

 

Oh please.

 

Now we will get comments like 'Kimi is too dumb to drive these cars'. Smart my ass, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to drive - that's what racing experience is for. 

 

Goes to show that all these experts like Hakkinen and Prost were mumbling mostly non-sense before a season nobody had any clue about. Engineers had very little insight into how the cars would work before the season started, but retired drivers were all of a sudden the Walter Whites of 2014 cars. 

 

I mean if we're discrediting Hakkinen for his assumptions pre-season, let's have a bit of goddamn consistency and at least doubt Prost as well. 

 

Because no, it's more plausible to assume that Raikkonen and Vettel had a brain fart and forgot how to drive. 


Edited by Cyanide, 24 April 2014 - 18:49.


#143 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,038 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 24 April 2014 - 20:00

Oh please.

 

Now we will get comments like 'Kimi is too dumb to drive these cars'. Smart my ass, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to drive - that's what racing experience is for. 

 

Goes to show that all these experts like Hakkinen and Prost were mumbling mostly non-sense before a season nobody had any clue about. Engineers had very little insight into how the cars would work before the season started, but retired drivers were all of a sudden the Walter Whites of 2014 cars. 

 

I mean if we're discrediting Hakkinen for his assumptions pre-season, let's have a bit of goddamn consistency and at least doubt Prost as well. 

 

Because no, it's more plausible to assume that Raikkonen and Vettel had a brain fart and forgot how to drive. 

 

I assumed he was referring more to the bolded.

 

Prost hit the nail in the head last year.

 

Smart, Adaptable drivers will thrive with 2014 technology.

 

http://www.jamesalle...014-technology/

 

“It has always been the case (that F1 drivers need to be intelligent to succeed)” said Prost. “But when you have a new technology like this one you have to work on it. You have to be more involved. Driving style could well have a big influence. So you have to adapt to that; it’s not going to be easy. If you do not understand, then you will struggle.”



#144 vj07

vj07
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:05

 I will try to be less provocative.

 

 

All this talk of driving styles is just excuses, and its just another in the long list of excuses we see every time Alonso crushes a team mate who was expected to push him. We saw it happen with  Massa, and now with Kimi. When he starting crushing Massa, first it was blamed on tyre heating problems, then confidence, then his accident, basically anything other than accepting Alonso really is THAT good. Now Kimi was supposed to join Ferrari and push Alonso because Massa was past it according to most, even professional pundits, but what I find amazing is how on earth could anybody have expected it go any different?

 

Massa and Kimi were equals, Alonso crushed Massa yet Kimi was supposed to push Alonso? Its completely illogical. What is happening was completely predictable for anyone who just used common sense, and did not make fanciful excuses in the past. No matter what tyres or parts they change Alonso will out class Kimi especially in mediorce machinery where the gap is always bigger between good and great.

 

I hope this finally puts into perspective the Lotus cars of recent years where Kimi despite being rusty on returning to the sport, generally matched Alonso and dominated Massa, and often had front running pace which so far has been non existent at Ferrari. Yes those cars were that good and so is Alonso. Making excuses is just a waste of time.

 

When Alonso was accused of constantly year after year down playing his cars, he is often accused of exaggerating. Ask Kimi and Massa if he is exaggerating.


Edited by vj07, 25 April 2014 - 04:27.


#145 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,799 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:39

So basically you're saying this thread should be closed? 



#146 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,285 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:44

Kimi has just arrived at the team after a long absence.

 

To say his problems, not imaginary but factual, are just an excuse is pretty simplistic at best.

 

If you think the current gap is respective of their talents behind the wheel, I'm afraid there's not going to be much space for rational discussion. 

 

This thread has nothing to do with Kimi in Lotus, so I suggest you drop that nonsense before the thread gets cleaned up again.



#147 vj07

vj07
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:49

Kimi has just arrived at the team after a long absence.

 

To say his problems, not imaginary but factual, are just an excuse is pretty simplistic at best.

 

If you think the current gap is respective of their talents behind the wheel, I'm afraid there's not going to be much space for rational discussion. 

 

This thread has nothing to do with Kimi in Lotus, so I suggest you drop that nonsense before the thread gets cleaned up again.

 

Point is Kimi arrived at Lotus after a longer absence and had very strong pace. yet at Ferrari now its a huge problem? 



#148 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,285 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:25

Point is Kimi arrived at Lotus after a longer absence and had very strong pace. yet at Ferrari now its a huge problem? 

 

New year, new rules, harder tires, and the opponent is Alonso not Grosjean.

 

What was the point again?



#149 vj07

vj07
  • New Member

  • 16 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:46

New year, new rules, harder tires, and the opponent is Alonso not Grosjean.

 

What was the point again?

 

Point is the excuses will never run out. History repeats. The gap will fluctuate its never constant as it did change with Massa as well when he was sometimes fast when everything aligned.



#150 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,863 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:03

It's nice when it's all so clear for you, but don't expect it to be for everyone.