Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

Four Races In: The Drivers...


  • Please log in to reply
165 replies to this topic

#151 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,621 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:01

Ah, you did not realize it was said at the end of last season - so now you have some context for Alonso's statement.

 

 

Wins, poles and championships are what define Senna, Prost, Micheal, Jim, Niki and others - how else would we gauge their greatness over time?  Prost did not make Senna great, nor visa versa.  Senna was great of his own accord - in his driving against the entire field, not just his results against a teammate.  Alonso lost to Hamilton - a rookie - which certainly does not define him.

 

 

No more than Hamilton doing well beating Alonso and then losing out to Button.  I can't understand the reasoning behind making that sort of judgment.  I look at the manner in which Hamilton achieves, not how he managed against teammates.  Which may explain why I was among the few defending him in 2011.  But that's my point of view.

 

1. Fair enough, if the quotes were regurgitated, I assumed they were new.

 

2. Senna and Prost most certainy helped one another's legacies, despite taking titles off each other, with the proof being (which undermines your whole argument of number of wins etc defining a driver) that Schumacher is not universally accepted as being the greatest. He did the best during his career of hauling in the records which are likely never to be broken, but still most, and even Shumi himself, consider Senna the greatest, others say  Clarke  (2 WDCs !?!??!) and possibly Gilles (none!). There must be a reason for that, I wonder what that might be? I think it's short-sighted and obtuse to think drivers are simply defined by stats, which don't happen to take context into consideration, as obviously the drivers being mentioned have all proved themselves vs the rest of the field, we aren't discussing that, rather splitting hairs between the greats and what made them so. As for Lewis and Alonso, I firmly believe that they severely helped one another's reputations and legacies in the year they raced together, and it bears no influence that Lewis was a rookie. Had they not, Alonso would have raced against very obvious no.2 drivers almost his whole career till his Ferrari days, but that year of competing against Lewis helped consolidate his position as one of the best. The same is true but to a lesser extent for Lewis as he was up against Jenson who he beat (comfortably) 2 out 3 years against him and that was the only year he has been beaten by a teammate in F1, and he has been up against more WDCs than most (save for perhaps Ros/Mas of current crop I think?). Although truth be told I think there is a case of circular logic with Lewis and Alonso, each one thought of as a top driver because of the year they had vs each other, but it seems to be accepted generally that they are up there and their performances since seem to reflect that.

 

3. It seems you and I look at this very differently, which is fine because it is all subjective anyway. It depends on how you value certain factors, context, record vs teammate, the capabilities of a given car (Newey-made or otherwise  :p ) and what I like to call the 'wow factor', but ultimately it's a debate that will never be resolved, as opinions will always differ.



Advertisement

#152 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,819 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:03

...

...

 

come back wins under pressure in a final race - or extreme pressure wins in a broken car, in final race, with the WDC on the line.   But then again, if we used this criteria that actually has more to do with racing (outcomes, wins, car and driver performance,...) others might not look so good anymore. 

 

....

 

Seb broke it, FFS!

 

He was incredibly lucky not to have ended his race and his title challenge on the spot.



#153 Zoetrope

Zoetrope
  • Member

  • 1,408 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:07

Speaking of all time greatest I have a feeling that if Alonso, Vettel and Lewis (assuming he wins WDC this year) retired after this season Vettel would be viewed as slightly inferior by future generations. And his greater number of wins, poles and championships wouldn't help that. Perhaps it would be biased view, perhaps it would have lots to do with fanbase creating a false image of each driver. 

One can disagree whether my prediction is accurate or not, because all three are close in terms of performance, but I have a strong belief exactly that would happen. And some forum users opinions can't alter how it is perceived amongst millions of fans.



#154 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,621 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:10

Speaking of all time greatest I have a feeling that if Alonso, Vettel and Lewis (assuming he wins WDC this year) retired after this season Vettel would be viewed as slightly inferior by future generations. And his greater number of wins, poles and championships wouldn't help that. Perhaps it would be biased view, perhaps it would have lots to do with fanbase creating a false image of each driver. 

One can disagree whether my prediction is accurate or not, because all three are close in terms of performance, but I have a strong belief exactly that would happen. And some forum users opinions can't alter how it is perceived amongst millions of fans.

Don't think that's necessary to be brutally honest.



#155 Zoetrope

Zoetrope
  • Member

  • 1,408 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:14

Don't think that's necessary to be brutally honest.

I forgot to add how media can also influence public opinion. If we have Johnny Herbert, who seems to be in love with Lewis, doing enough credible propaganda on TV, then Lewis might retire tomorrow to achieve that  :p



#156 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:18

Speaking of all time greatest I have a feeling that if Alonso, Vettel and Lewis (assuming he wins WDC this year) retired after this season Vettel would be viewed as slightly inferior by future generations. And his greater number of wins, poles and championships wouldn't help that. Perhaps it would be biased view, perhaps it would have lots to do with fanbase creating a false image of each driver. 

One can disagree whether my prediction is accurate or not, because all three are close in terms of performance, but I have a strong belief exactly that would happen. And some forum users opinions can't alter how it is perceived amongst millions of fans.

For me it's up in the air how great Vettel is, I'm watching.  He might be up there, or not, depending whether he can start to look faster than Ricciardo, basically.



#157 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 30 April 2014 - 18:32

For me it's up in the air how great Vettel is, I'm watching.  He might be up there, or not, depending whether he can start to look faster than Ricciardo, basically.

For me it is up in the air how good Lewis, Alonso and Seb are. I reserve my right to judge their greatness until they retire or visibly past their peak. 

 

You could ask me who was the better driver out of the 3 based on what we have seen so far, and I would probably give a different answer each time you asked me. I can entertain an argument for all 3 at this stage. I could not give a fixed answer though.

 

Motor Sport Magazine recently did a poll about who was the "greatest driver since 2010". Seb won by quite a margin and it was a respectful choice in my opinion. Yet another recent poll they ran about who was the "greatest driver ever" , Alonso beat Vettel, and neither were in the top 3 (Senna won btw, and rightfully so  ;) )

 

Views can be very fickle and at times contradictory. Things can also happen very quickly to change views on such matters. Which is why I am going to wait before providing any fixed opinions on these 3 great drivers.



#158 Blanchimont2002

Blanchimont2002
  • Member

  • 199 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 30 April 2014 - 19:21

What???? I cant believe it whenever I hear this sh*t. In 2011 Jensen won three races. Canada, Hungary and Japan. Canada, he took out his teammate, Hungary, his teammate was leading till they put the wrong tyre on his teammates car making him spin and serve a subsequent drive through that handed Jensen the win. I cant remember how he won in Japan but I can assure you something must have happened to Lewis for him to have won? How was he magic? JB is at best an average Formula 1 driver like JV who lucked into a good car to win a championship. Lets not make this a driver thread but please Button has never been magic in any of his years in F1


I'm pretty sure lewis and jenson had the same tyres on when Lewis spun. The rain started falling, LH spun, they raced a couple of laps, LH pitted and changed tyres and then it came through that he had a drive through.

#159 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 April 2014 - 19:26

For me it is up in the air how good Lewis, Alonso and Seb are. I reserve my right to judge their greatness until they retire or visibly past their peak. 

 

You could ask me who was the better driver out of the 3 based on what we have seen so far, and I would probably give a different answer each time you asked me. I can entertain an argument for all 3 at this stage. I could not give a fixed answer though.

 

Motor Sport Magazine recently did a poll about who was the "greatest driver since 2010". Seb won by quite a margin and it was a respectful choice in my opinion. Yet another recent poll they ran about who was the "greatest driver ever" , Alonso beat Vettel, and neither were in the top 3 (Senna won btw, and rightfully so  ;) )

 

Views can be very fickle and at times contradictory. Things can also happen very quickly to change views on such matters. Which is why I am going to wait before providing any fixed opinions on these 3 great drivers.

Well my strategy is that I can always change my mind too :) .

 

But I can reach a point where I'm fairly confident I won't have to, and that's where I am with Hamilton and Alonso.  With Vettel I really am not sure.  Not saying it was all the car, but he has to do it in multiple kinds of car like the others, for me to rank him with them.  I expect that he will, but I wanna see it, because we have both 2012 and now to raise the question.



Advertisement

#160 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,722 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 30 April 2014 - 19:39

Speaking of all time greatest I have a feeling that if Alonso, Vettel and Lewis (assuming he wins WDC this year) retired after this season Vettel would be viewed as slightly inferior by future generations. And his greater number of wins, poles and championships wouldn't help that. Perhaps it would be biased view, perhaps it would have lots to do with fanbase creating a false image of each driver. 

One can disagree whether my prediction is accurate or not, because all three are close in terms of performance, but I have a strong belief exactly that would happen. And some forum users opinions can't alter how it is perceived amongst millions of fans.

 

Even right now Alonso is generally more highly rated than Vettel (I think) even though he has some inferior statistics.


Edited by bub, 30 April 2014 - 19:39.


#161 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 30 April 2014 - 19:43

Well my strategy is that I can always change my mind too :) .

 

But I can reach a point where I'm fairly confident I won't have to, and that's where I am with Hamilton and Alonso.  With Vettel I really am not sure.  Not saying it was all the car, but he has to do it in multiple kinds of car like the others, for me to rank him with them.  I expect that he will, but I wanna see it, because we have both 2012 and now to raise the question.

I respect your opinion

 

But would the Toro Rosso not classify as a different car to the RB. I know you said "multiple", but Seb has done well in two teams technically. Would you not rate Lewis before 2013? Unless you mean different cars and not strictly different teams?

 

If I have one minor question mark about Seb, it is that Webber was not always the greatest measurement post 2010. I should state I am not picking on Seb, I have minor question marks about Lewis as well.



#162 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 April 2014 - 20:13

I respect your opinion

 

But would the Toro Rosso not classify as a different car to the RB. I know you said "multiple", but Seb has done well in two teams technically. Would you not rate Lewis before 2013? Unless you mean different cars and not strictly different teams?

 

If I have one minor question mark about Seb, it is that Webber was not always the greatest measurement post 2010. I should state I am not picking on Seb, I have minor question marks about Lewis as well.

Well in 2008 the Torro Rosso was a Red Bull clone wasn't it?  And at Monza even Bourdais put it 4th on the grid.  

 

Yes I mean cars with different characteristics.  So Sebi is supreme with a nailed-down back end, and he developed his technique to get the absolute most out of a blown diffuser; and he's brilliant in traffic, very consistent in a race and amazing on Lap1 which is always a sign of talent IMO.  But I want to see him beat his teammate in a less stable car than he's had in his career before 2014.  Because for example Jense is also great in a car with a nailed-down back end.



#163 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:36

Well in 2008 the Torro Rosso was a Red Bull clone wasn't it?  And at Monza even Bourdais put it 4th on the grid.  

 

Yes I mean cars with different characteristics.  So Sebi is supreme with a nailed-down back end, and he developed his technique to get the absolute most out of a blown diffuser; and he's brilliant in traffic, very consistent in a race and amazing on Lap1 which is always a sign of talent IMO.  But I want to see him beat his teammate in a less stable car than he's had in his career before 2014.  Because for example Jense is also great in a car with a nailed-down back end.

Fair enough  :up:



#164 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 5,200 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 May 2014 - 00:43

In many years (if things stayed the way they are wdc's/poles/wins wise) I still think Vettel & schumacher will be seen as the greatest of this generation (if we can really call it 1 generation).

 

Which world beating team mates did stewart, lauda, clark beat to be considered absolute legends?



#165 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 00:47

I

 

Which world beating team mates did stewart, lauda, clark beat to be considered absolute legends?

The other two were before my time. Lauda beat Prost to win his last title though.

 

Schumi is seen as the best driver of the 00's, he won a vote this week done by Motorsport magazine by a hefty margin. So I can agree there. With Seb, I think he has underlined he is a great driver. The best of his generation? Maybe, we shall see.



#166 RubalSher

RubalSher
  • Member

  • 3,944 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:46

Finally a thread where you can compare any driver (past or present) against another and cite any races since F1 began as a reason for your argument. And here I was thinking that we needed to keep this year's racing in context.