28 replies to this topic

[john_smith]

The front wings in 2009 were widened to decrease the loss of downforce from following another car due to the effects of turbulence, and imho, it was an effective measure.

 

In 2014, we are again seeing a lack of overtaking (despite DRS) in 2014 due to cars being unable to follow another closely. We saw much less overtaking in Sepang and Shanghai, tracks where we have historically seen some exciting races.

 

I think it was a mistake to narrow the front wings. I understand the rationale was to control the amount of available downforce, but the way they went about it wasn't the way to go. They could have kept the width of the wings but limited number of elements or number of end plate elements.

 

What do you think?

[Thomas99]

Yes and no. It makes the cars lose front downforce easier but it also reduces the risk of losing your front wing.

[KingTiger]

Unless you can show me your PhD in fluid mechanics I can't agree with your hypothesis. 

[akshay380]

Unless you can show me your PhD in fluid mechanics I can't agree with your hypothesis. 

This.   The lack of overtaking if you want to say so, can be due to multiple factors. I clearly remember seeing some midfield cars following each other closely for multiple laps.

Edited by akshay380, 25 April 2014 - 04:10.

[nosecone]

IMO the biggest factor for the lack of overtaking is that the difference in car performance between the cars is too big. If there are some cars which have almost the equal performance we can see great racing. Bahrain witnesses that. But if there is a clear pecking order like in China we won't see racing.

 

So what we have to hope for is that the teams close the gap to the front and reduce the difference in the car performance

[Tommay]

It's been nothing to do with he dirty air, the cars purely are to different in performance levels for them to be close. It'll start to even out as we go and then we can discuss this. (It could be a valid point baring in mind the reasoning for the expansion of them in the first place)

[anachronox]

It could be simply the way the teams use ERS when they want to defend while they are under attack on the DRS zone.

Edited by anachronox, 25 April 2014 - 06:35.

[Seanspeed]

The only examples I can think of where a faster car struggles to overtake is with Ferrari and Renault-powered cars.

[PayasYouRace]

The front wings in 2009 were widened to decrease the loss of downforce from following another car due to the effects of turbulence, and imho, it was an effective measure.

 

In 2014, we are again seeing a lack of overtaking (despite DRS) in 2014 due to cars being unable to follow another closely. We saw much less overtaking in Sepang and Shanghai, tracks where we have historically seen some exciting races.

 

I think it was a mistake to narrow the front wings. I understand the rationale was to control the amount of available downforce, but the way they went about it wasn't the way to go. They could have kept the width of the wings but limited number of elements or number of end plate elements.

 

What do you think?

 

It could be a factor, but with so many sweeping changes this year it's difficult to isolate what would probably be quite a small effect.

 

You also have to factor in that the DRS is different this year (shallower wing) so while the "letterbox" opening is bigger, there's less downforce, meaning less induced drag, and less drag for the reduction system to reduce.

 

So early into a new rules package like this, teams' form will fluctuate wildly, and sometimes you'll have big gaps and other times closer racing. I don't think we can draw a definitive conclusion.

 

Unless you can show me your PhD in fluid mechanics I can't agree with your hypothesis. 

 

Take it from my MEng in aerodynamics that the idea is sound, but probably not creating a drastic effect overall. But perhaps it would be more useful to attack the argument and not the credentials.

[undersquare]

Some truth to this IMO.  It's a question whether the change to the rear wing depth balances it out, so far I'd say not.

 

We don't want passing to be easy though, because after the pass the racing is over.  It's obvious but true, that it needs to be possible but difficult.  Fine line.

[Jamiednm]

When Hamilton and Rosberg were scrapping for several laps during the Bahrain GP, I don't recall either of them struggling to stay with the other car (even without DRS). They were all over each other. That was perfect - exactly how Grand Prix racing should be in my opinion.

[boldhakka]

Let things settle down with the new rules and regulations. 

[SenorSjon]

The front wing should fit between the front wheels to get proper dimensions again. The snowplough era is horrible. Cars look out of proportion and the drivers can't see the wing, so they cut rear tires with them.

[uzsjgb]

When Hamilton and Rosberg were scrapping for several laps during the Bahrain GP, I don't recall either of them struggling to stay with the other car (even without DRS). They were all over each other. That was perfect - exactly how Grand Prix racing should be in my opinion.

 

Only because in Bahrain we had very many slow corners, where aerodynamics do not play such a big role.

 

In Formula 1 you still won't see any high speed racing because cars cannot follow each other through high speed corners.

[Alexandros]

It was supposed that cars would have less DF and more mechanical grip as to be less sensitive to downforce disruption. In 2014 they reduced the downforce but also reduced the mechanical grip (harder tires) so every bit of downforce is now crucial in mid-high speed corners. 

[Fastcake]

The wider front wings were responsible for a large amount of punctures, as well as making it quite easy for the rear driver to lose an end plate or even the entire wing. I believe narrowing the wings is a good thing overall thanks to the decreased risk of ruining a race.

Edited by Fastcake, 25 April 2014 - 09:57.

[Goron3]

The front wings in 2009 were widened to decrease the loss of downforce from following another car due to the effects of turbulence, and imho, it was an effective measure.

 

In 2014, we are again seeing a lack of overtaking (despite DRS) in 2014 due to cars being unable to follow another closely. We saw much less overtaking in Sepang and Shanghai, tracks where we have historically seen some exciting races.

 

I think it was a mistake to narrow the front wings. I understand the rationale was to control the amount of available downforce, but the way they went about it wasn't the way to go. They could have kept the width of the wings but limited number of elements or number of end plate elements.

 

What do you think?

There was a lack of overtaking due to a large field spread, caused by the new regulations, just as there was in 2009, 2005 and 98. As the field closes up there'll be much more overtaking.

[Seanspeed]

When Hamilton and Rosberg were scrapping for several laps during the Bahrain GP, I don't recall either of them struggling to stay with the other car (even without DRS). They were all over each other. That was perfect - exactly how Grand Prix racing should be in my opinion.

DRS still played a big part in the Bahrain action. A lot of people tend to ignore the role that DRS in keeping drivers close and creating opportunities in general. For example, Rosberg's dives up the inside on Turn 1 were very much facilitated by DRS. This then allowed them to battle through the first couple turns and then run side-by-side up to the next set of turns, where the battle continued.

And honestly, even if the front wings do hurt the ability to follow closely a *bit* more than before(which there's really no evidence of, I'm just running with the assumption), it doesn't matter. That is precisely the point of having DRS, to make up for that issue. If people complain that DRS is too 'overpowered' then this reduced ability to follow closely should balance things out more.

But again, nothing to suggest these front wings are worse than before.

[balmybaldwin]

F1 is designed to discourage "racing" or overtaking in that the cars compete to see whos fastest, and then the grid has the fastest cars at the front and the slowest at the back. Imagine how bad it would be if they did rolling starts in f1!

ive often wondered how good a series would be that made the grid the reverse championship order.

Btccc with their multiple race days do well with their reverse front 5-10 of grid (drawn by winner of race 2) idea for the third race and it produces some stonking races

[ollebompa]

The wing width this year makes no sense. Either you have it outside or inside the tires. In the middle just complicate things.

Edited by ollebompa, 28 April 2014 - 05:59.

[eronrules]

NO

[LightningMcQueen]

Faster cars and faster drivers tend to be in front of slower ones, for fast drivers to be at the back something out of the ordinary has happened... There will never be lots of overtaking in F1 unless artificial influences have mixed up the order - tyres and strategy being the most obvious...

[Buttoneer]

This covers it for me;

 

It could be a factor, but with so many sweeping changes this year it's difficult to isolate what would probably be quite a small effect.

 

 

[jee]

The reason for the lack of overtaking is that the faster car are already infront of the slower cars at the start and not much happening to mix it up.

[BillBald]

The reason for the lack of overtaking is that the faster car are already infront of the slower cars at the start and not much happening to mix it up.

 

Not really true.

 

We have actually seen an increase in team orders this year, due to the faster team-mate having difficulty in overtaking the slower one. I'm surprised and disappointed by this, as I was expecting more overtaking, not less.

 

A major part of the problem is that the tyres still seem to be very fragile, even though they are using harder compounds. Following another car closely for more than a lap or two seems to degrade the tyres so much, that the following car is no longer faster. Overheating within the car can be an issue as well.

 

I wouldn't rule out the front wing changes having some impact. Very little overtaking on the main straight in China? That's got to indicate that front wings were washing out in turn 13, surely?

[demet06]

It might just be me but I think the cars are closer round the corners than they've been for some years. Especially so in Bahrain. I know it was a one off race as the season has panned out up to now but all the teammates were all over each other right down the field. All the cars are sliding about, you just have to see the in-car footage to see how hard the drivers are working. So i don't think there's too much wrong with the front wings. 

[BillBald]

It might just be me but I think the cars are closer round the corners than they've been for some years. Especially so in Bahrain. I know it was a one off race as the season has panned out up to now but all the teammates were all over each other right down the field. All the cars are sliding about, you just have to see the in-car footage to see how hard the drivers are working. So i don't think there's too much wrong with the front wings. 

 

Bahrain is nearly all slowish corners, it's on faster corners that you get the problem with following closely due to dirty air.

 

Compare the overtaking you had on the Bahrain main straight with the lack of overtaking on the longer straight in China.

[SenorSjon]

The longer straight in China was a rubber minefield.

 

I think you underestimate tire wear in this. If the tires hold out following closely for 10+ laps, people would do it more. Now it is better to be >1 second away from the car in front of you to save the tires.

Edited by SenorSjon, 29 April 2014 - 07:12.

[HoldenRT]

Haven't seen enough data yet to think that the cars have trouble following in fast corners, I mean they do.. but that it's more so than last year.  They will always have trouble following and the faster the corner the harder it will be, haven't noticed it being worse than previous years.

 

As others have said there are a lot of factors.