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Decline of TV ratings in Germany


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#1351 renzmann

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 14:16

Man, I hate exclusive rights.

 

Just looked up Sky's prices. If I understand correctly, it's possible to stream Sky F1 for 9,99 € (SkyTicket)? Is that right? Including Premier League and Champions League games? That's not so bad. If it stays that way, I'd sign up 2021.



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#1352 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 14:52

Wow...now it's gonna look like I stopped watching F1 because Vettels gone, which really isn't the case  :p Can someone explain to me how sky's acquisition of distribution rights isn't a ****ing monopoly?



#1353 Ben1445

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 15:50

Though I do not think it the only reason, the loss in accessibility has contributed to my loss in interest in F1. 

 

Having now also lost IndyCar to Sky from BT-Sport (something I happened to get as a throw-in with broadband) I have to say my enthusiasm for that dropped too... and I love IndyCar. 

 

When you make something harder to watch and leave people scrambling for other options or putting effort into finding the cheapest way of watching it just doesn't end well. 

 

Convenience and accessibility matter - and exclusive rights behind a pay wall provide neither of those to a majority of people. 

 

I expect a dramatic viewership drop in Germany much like we've seen in there UK after a similar deal. 


Edited by Ben1445, 23 June 2020 - 16:08.


#1354 Zoe

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 16:03

 

I expect a dramatic viewership drop in Germany much like we've seen in there UK after a similar deal. 

 

Perfect for attracting more sponsorship for the teams.



#1355 masa90

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 16:26

It is gonna happen elsewhere too. Shame, but it is understandably if you are not a big fan/or for example can not afford the pay tv.

 

In Finland the popularity of f1 has gone down massively after going to paytv. So many people have just stopped following it completely.



#1356 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 17:48

I am not sure who will carry in the US this year, were it to move behind a paywall I would be in trouble having cut the cord, if however I could buy each race at a not too high price I would do so... Think would top out at $20 per race, the selling per race, per event, per game is the future and viewer numbers will be real and exact over the impossible numbers they (and most sports) throw at us, a pair of eyes on a F1 race for 15 minutes is not a viewer.

 

:cool:



#1357 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 08:32

$20 a race? Not in this lifetime. 

 

It also makes the teams much more dependant on FOM to run their times due to prize money being much higher than sponsorship can ever achieve. And you can sponsor a F1 team for what, 20-30m as main sponsor? You can buy a host of online presence for that money for months on end.



#1358 AlexPrime

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 08:52

To be honest, there are so many races streaming for free, that I won't miss F1. GTs in particular are in the same weekends usually.



#1359 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 10:12

Wow...now it's gonna look like I stopped watching F1 because Vettels gone, which really isn't the case :p Can someone explain to me how sky's acquisition of distribution rights isn't a ****ing monopoly?

Monopolies as such are legal in most/all jurisdictions. Selling a product exclusively through certain channels is also a choice that a rights holder can make.

A problem at least in some jurisdictions would be to leverage a monopoly in illegal ways (to be defined) in order to increase the stranglehold on this market even more, or to use a monopoly in one market to gain market share in another (which was the point of contention when Microsoft tried to leverage their PC operating system monopoly to force their browser on people).

Even then, you first need to prove that a monopoly even exists (in the Microsoft case, a question was if there was a monopoly despite people having the choice of Apple and other, more niche, operating systems for Intel PCs). And then you need a prosecutor who believes that the situation is detrimental to wider interests.

None of this seems very likely for Sky and F1.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 June 2020 - 10:17.


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#1360 pdac

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 11:42

Monopolies as such are legal in most/all jurisdictions. Selling a product exclusively through certain channels is also a choice that a rights holder can make.

A problem at least in some jurisdictions would be to leverage a monopoly in illegal ways (to be defined) in order to increase the stranglehold on this market even more, or to use a monopoly in one market to gain market share in another (which was the point of contention when Microsoft tried to leverage their PC operating system monopoly to force their browser on people).

Even then, you first need to prove that a monopoly even exists (in the Microsoft case, a question was if there was a monopoly despite people having the choice of Apple and other, more niche, operating systems for Intel PCs). And then you need a prosecutor who believes that the situation is detrimental to wider interests.

None of this seems very likely for Sky and F1.

 

I think you also have to look at the value of the product to the individual and the state. Clearly, it's very valuable for people to have access to computer software that has the ability to power many commercial operations vital to the economy of the country. But F1? What loss would that be to any state or country if someone monopolised access to it?



#1361 Sterzo

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 13:12

Wow...now it's gonna look like I stopped watching F1 because Vettels gone, which really isn't the case  :p Can someone explain to me how sky's acquisition of distribution rights isn't a ****ing monopoly?

I think it's because governments' definition of monopoly is quite vague, and as times change so they struggle to keep up. In some countries, definitely the UK, and I think Belgium and others, they list certain sporting events and insist they are made available on free-to-air. That's why the British GP is always on FTA for UK viewers. It's an old fashioned view based (I think) on the times when your own GP was all your local broadcaster would show in full anyway. Like the muddled confusion about how to regulate social media, the law makers just haven't kept up with technological change.



#1362 TomNokoe

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 13:28

Great Twitter thread about the direction Liberty are taking

https://twitter.com/...3959615489?s=19

#1363 Marklar

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 13:50

Everything is moving behind a paywall nowadays, and people have started to be more willing to pay for it (although Germany is still one of the markets that is lagging back in this regard). If a sport doesnt survive or declines behind a paywall it's largely because the sport isnt interesting enough anymore.

What worries me mainly here is - besides that Germany already isnt a Pay TV nation and the lack of Germans to attract the casual viewer - is the FTA package as a means to promote the sport. 4 live races and highlights for the others would be fine, but Sky Sport News is the wrong channel to do it


Edited by Marklar, 24 June 2020 - 13:52.


#1364 TomNokoe

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 13:56

What worries me mainly here is - besides that Germany already isnt a Pay TV nation and the lack of Germans to attract the casual viewer - is the FTA package. 4 live races and highlights for the others would be fine, but Sky Sport News is the wrong channel to do it

When you said "Sky Sport News" originally I thought you were referencing them as a source, not a channel!

 

How FTA is this channel, really? Sky do a similar thing in the UK, their definition of FTA is an obscure, standard definition channel that nobody would otherwise care about.



#1365 Marklar

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 13:59

When you said "Sky Sport News" originally I thought you were referencing them as a source, not a channel!

 

How FTA is this channel, really? Sky do a similar thing in the UK, their definition of FTA is an obscure, standard definition channel that nobody would otherwise care about.

I mean it's FTA, but it's like...unless you are a really huge sport fan (mostly football) you wont watch it, probably quite similar to the UK.



#1366 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 14:10

Everything is moving behind a paywall nowadays, and people have started to be more willing to pay for it (although Germany is still one of the markets that is lagging back in this regard). If a sport doesnt survive or declines behind a paywall it's largely because the sport isnt interesting enough anymore.

What worries me mainly here is - besides that Germany already isnt a Pay TV nation and the lack of Germans to attract the casual viewer - is the FTA package as a means to promote the sport. 4 live races and highlights for the others would be fine, but Sky Sport News is the wrong channel to do it

 

Paywalls as such I don't have a problem with as long as the product is value for money I'm happy to pay for it. My main problem is the giant pile of overpriced garbage  that's bundled with the 1 thing I actually have an interest in. On top of that Sky is gouging customers to overpay for exclusivity effectively damaging interest in the sport.


Edited by pitlanepalpatine, 24 June 2020 - 14:11.


#1367 muramasa

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 14:32

 

F1 has to have strategies to give any channels and media, as well as makers and teams and sponsors, the use of their materials, for free, like up to 1 hour per week or whatever. Maybe makers and teams and sponsors can do anything to use F1 for their advertisement totally freely.

Nowadays hardly any live sports coverage in Japan for baseball (used to be everyday), football etc on ground wave channels, but ordinary people at least get good exposures through daily news programs. Also these local leagues sports are close to your communities so with good soliciting efforts it's possible to establish sustainability in attracting audiences to stadiums and appealing to and acquiring casual and new fans through various collaboration opportunities and local promotion events etc. Those sports and tournaments that are internationally famous and popular like Wimbledon tennis and those European football leagues are having it much easier as well, sport itself is popular and well proliferated, TV and material rights are not exclusive and expensive so they have lots of exposures on various media. But F1 do not have any of these. With F1 races keep disappearing from free channel for more than a decade and free coverage is practically gone from the globe now, no one watches F1 now, no one has exposure to F1, nothing, F1 does not exist in general public eyes. F1 has to start to exist in the first place. Same for MotoGP, WEC etc, motorsports just have no presence in the world.



#1368 Marklar

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 14:38

Paywalls as such I don't have a problem with as long as the product is value for money I'm happy to pay for it. My main problem is the giant pile of overpriced garbage  that's bundled with the 1 thing I actually have an interest in. On top of that Sky is gouging customers to overpay for exclusivity effectively damaging interest in the sport.

Pretty sure Sky offers Sky Ticket for 10 € per month and that includes F1

Of course now streaming (with slight delay) vs. actual TV is the next problem here.



#1369 Clatter

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 15:48

Monopolies as such are legal in most/all jurisdictions. Selling a product exclusively through certain channels is also a choice that a rights holder can make.

A problem at least in some jurisdictions would be to leverage a monopoly in illegal ways (to be defined) in order to increase the stranglehold on this market even more, or to use a monopoly in one market to gain market share in another (which was the point of contention when Microsoft tried to leverage their PC operating system monopoly to force their browser on people).

Even then, you first need to prove that a monopoly even exists (in the Microsoft case, a question was if there was a monopoly despite people having the choice of Apple and other, more niche, operating systems for Intel PCs). And then you need a prosecutor who believes that the situation is detrimental to wider interests.

None of this seems very likely for Sky and F1.

 


The EU courts did scupper Skys monopoly on the TV rights for Premier league football (wonder if Brexit allows a change back?) That was Ok for the TV companies, but shafted the fans, who now needed multiple subscriptions if they wanted all games as before.

#1370 Ben1445

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 15:57

Everything is moving behind a paywall nowadays, and people have started to be more willing to pay for it (although Germany is still one of the markets that is lagging back in this regard). If a sport doesnt survive or declines behind a paywall it's largely because the sport isnt interesting enough anymore.

What worries me mainly here is - besides that Germany already isnt a Pay TV nation and the lack of Germans to attract the casual viewer - is the FTA package as a means to promote the sport. 4 live races and highlights for the others would be fine, but Sky Sport News is the wrong channel to do it

This is true - times are changing and the best options aren't necessarily the ones that have worked in the past. Free-to-air TV might not necessarily be the best option now or in the future.

 

Other thing is, whist subscription models are all the rage, I think there comes a point where people will only subscribe to a certain number of things at any given time. It would be far better to try and get F1 onto a streaming service which most people would consider 'must have' and have access to almost as readily as they would regular TV in decades gone by. 

 

I don't think that Sky Sports has ever really been 'must have' given their pricing, though that may be changing if they're offering €10 per month passes in Germany (which is still pricey in my opinion unless you happen to want whatever else that gets you at the same time). But then you still don't really solve the problem of how to tell people that F1 exists and is worth watching, as you say. 

 

IIRC there was the whole debacle in the UK where you could initially only get F1 if you signed up to one of their most expensive and all inclusive packages going... 



#1371 TomNokoe

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 16:18

IMO the subscription model only properly works for music and TV/movies because they are ubiquitous.

Sports are different, and especially as Marklar alluded to, live sports.

In specific markets for specific sports, at a lower level, it would probably work. For example, even Gaelic Football has a streaming service :p

Unless I'm badly mistaken, outside of Netflix/Prime/Disney+/Spotify stuff, what else has reached critical mass?

Sometimes I think the massively-expensive, global sports would struggle because you need the mother of all marketing campaigns to get enough people onboard. I remember Sean Bratches speaking about F1TV when it launched, but I can't recall the global audience figure they were targetting.

Or does critical mass not matter? I don't know.

F1's problem is that it is massively expensive to run, but slowly (quickly?) losing it's "global" status in terms of viewership. Which isn't sustainable.

Edited by TomNokoe, 24 June 2020 - 18:58.


#1372 pdac

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 17:48

The paywall is a problem if it does not achieve the goals that Liberty and/or Sky are after. But the complaint here is mainly about people (me include, I might add) who see it as something that will be denying them the possibility of continuing to follow the sport they have been following for some time.

 

The blunt truth is that if a paywall can still deliver the numbers of people that they are happy with and produces the income that they would like, then it will extend. The cost of subscriptions will be flexible, though. The price will be dependent on the the numbers. If too many people can't or won't pay, they will offer discounts or incentives. If there are a good number of people who will pay, they will surely up the price to find the maximum price-point that the market will bear.

 

You will only get free-to-air back if the sport starts to seriously die. Right now, that's not happening at a serious level.


Edited by pdac, 24 June 2020 - 17:49.


#1373 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 13:59

I think you also have to look at the value of the product to the individual and the state. Clearly, it's very valuable for people to have access to computer software that has the ability to power many commercial operations vital to the economy of the country. But F1? What loss would that be to any state or country if someone monopolised access to it?


Agreed, it's what I meant in the last sentence of my post

#1374 H0R

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 16:17

With RTL gone I'll just fall back to www.nta.ng


Edited by H0R, 25 June 2020 - 16:18.


#1375 FLB

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 12:24

Would you believe TV ratings are going down in Italy as well?

 

https://www.formulap...nce-516891.html (in italiano)



#1376 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 12:43

With Ferrari not performing, that is hardly a surprise.



#1377 doc83

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 18:06

To be honest, there are so many races streaming for free, that I won't miss F1. GTs in particular are in the same weekends usually.

 

Two weeks ago I canceled my subscription after 20 years of watching F1 every weekend. Surprised how I don't miss it at all. Bernie is a genius and always was Mr. F1. Knew that F1 is dying and it was the time to sell. 



#1378 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 18:08

It's been this way for a while? 



#1379 Jovanotti

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 18:22

Great Twitter thread about the direction Liberty are taking

https://twitter.com/...3959615489?s=19

Indeed. I probably would have never started watching had F1 been behind a pay wall.

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#1380 Zoe

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Posted 14 September 2020 - 11:26

Maybe twitter is not the right medium to write messages longer than 140 characters  :)

 

In any case, I concur, also with what Jovanotti says. Back in the Good Old Times ™ I watched F1, Champcar, American Football, Motorbike racing as and when they were available on free TV. When they were gone, I stopped watching (and used the time for something else).

 

And to be honest, looking at what FIA is doing to the sport today, I will definitely not pay a cent for Sky or any other pay channel. It is nice to get the chance to view the circus for free, but in the current state definitely not worth extra money to me. I'd rather buy a collection of DVDs with races of the 50ies to eighties to spend my Sunday evenings with.

 

Your mileage may and will vary of course.



#1381 BRG

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 16:13

Knew that F1 is dying 

Bernie should have known that.  After all he was the one that was killing it.



#1382 TheFish

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 16:18

Pretty sure Sky offers Sky Ticket for 10 € per month and that includes F1

Of course now streaming (with slight delay) vs. actual TV is the next problem here.


Sky in Germany is surprisingly cheap though, as a Brit. Paying €20 per month and it also includes the Premier League, and that price is guaranteed for life. Can get it for €15 without that.

Happy to pay that, was paying considerably more in the UK.

#1383 Marklar

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 14:38

apparently RTL will still broadcast 4 races in 2021 https://f1-insider.c...impression=true

#1384 Viryfan

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 16:50

apparently RTL will still broadcast 4 races in 2021 https://f1-insider.c...impression=true

 

same deal as in France