25 replies to this topic

[Spa65]

We hear a lot about Eau Rouge being one of the hardest corners in F1. However Stewart himself has said that there was an even more dangerous corner at the old Spa - namely that kink. Are there any anecdotes about that kink that can be shared? I have a couple:

 

Stewart himself saying that he went through flat out in the 3 litre Matra, even though he thought it would be quicker to lift slightly. It was a macho thing.

 

Clark parking beside Gurney (both out of fuel) at the end of the Grand Prix in 1964. (Clark won by luck from 4th, Gurney had been leading.) Gurney commented that the hairs on the back of his head stood up everytime he went through the Masta kink. Clark promptly felt Gurney's hair.

 

Amon taking the kink flat out in the March on the last lap in 1970, gaining 2 secs on Rodriguez. Still not quite enough to win, but I think it was the all time F1 record, even with the chicane before Stavelot.

 

Stewart famously going off in the wet in his BRM in 1966. Trapped in petrol soaked overalls for an eternity, spurring him on to greater things with his safety campaign, to the disgust of the likes of DSJ. So perversely, perhaps this corner helped save many lives.

[Spaceframe]

Not another anecdote this one, but Chris Amon's recollection of Spa 1970 as told over lunch to Simon Taylor for MotorSport of June 2008:

 

"At Spa I was leading from Jackie and Jochen, and I could see them get smaller in my mirrors. Then suddenly there was this bloody BRM looming up. Pedro Rodriguez - he'd been eighth on the grid, a good couple of seconds slower than me and Jackie in qualifying. I thought, where the hell did he come from? He just blew by. I stuck with him, and I worked out that the only way I could pass him was by taing the Masta kink flat, and getting him down the hill. It had never been flat up to then, but on the last lap I hung back, and then I went for it. I did get it flat between the buildings - I was that close to the wall - and I drafted by him down to Stavelot. That was when I set the lap record. But on the long drag up the hill he just steamed past again."

 

Phew.... 

[Tenmantaylor]

Great quote from Chris

 

If driving it in GPL was anything to go by this corner was at least x10 more difficult and dangerous than Eau Rouge. Not only did you arrive faster (at over 190mph in the Eagle) it was a double blind apex lined with fences with houses directly behind them. And the track had very little  camber unlike the corners previous so once you'd committed to an entry speed you were pretty much unable to recover if the car got out of shape. It's quite amazing that the even with it's flaws my memories of the corner being almost flat in GPL as per the real drivers are entirely the same, the fastest way was to partially lift for a split second to help get the front wheels turning in then straight back on the power. Going in flat meant either getting up on the dirt at entry or sliding wide too much in the transition and compromising the exit.

[Odseybod]

Great quote from Chris

 

If driving it in GPL was anything to go by this corner was at least x10 more difficult and dangerous than Eau Rouge. Not only did you arrive faster (at over 190mph in the Eagle) it was a double blind apex lined with fences with houses directly behind them. And the track had very little  camber unlike the corners previous so once you'd committed to an entry speed you were pretty much unable to recover if the car got out of shape. It's quite amazing that the even with it's flaws my memories of the corner being almost flat in GPL as per the real drivers are entirely the same, the fastest way was to partially lift for a split second to help get the front wheels turning in then straight back on the power. Going in flat meant either getting up on the dirt at entry or sliding wide too much in the transition and compromising the exit.

 

Ah, many thanks.  I was going to mention that this is the scene of some of my best/lengthiest/most devastating GPL crashes, then decided it would be presumptious to put my experiences right next to those of Messrs Amon, Rodriguez, etc.   Trouble is that in the Ferrari, the kink LOOKS as though it should be possible flat - I'll try a hint of a confidence lift next time and see if that avoids quite so much collateral damage to the surrounding countryside .

[LittleChris]

Came worryingly close to crashing my road car there 15 years ago ( not concentrating properly on a damp road ). Was a bit more circumspect on my last visit 3 years ago   

[Glengavel]

We hear a lot about Eau Rouge being one of the hardest corners in F1. However Stewart himself has said that there was an even more dangerous corner at the old Spa - namely that kink. Are there any anecdotes about that kink that can be shared? I have a couple:

 

Stewart himself saying that he went through flat out in the 3 litre Matra, even though he thought it would be quicker to lift slightly. It was a macho thing.

 

Clark parking beside Gurney (both out of fuel) at the end of the Grand Prix in 1964. (Clark won by luck from 4th, Gurney had been leading.) Gurney commented that the hairs on the back of his head stood up everytime he went through the Masta kink. Clark promptly felt Gurney's hair.

 

Amon taking the kink flat out in the March on the last lap in 1970, gaining 2 secs on Rodriguez. Still not quite enough to win, but I think it was the all time F1 record, even with the chicane before Stavelot.

 

Stewart famously going off in the wet in his BRM in 1966. Trapped in petrol soaked overalls for an eternity, spurring him on to greater things with his safety campaign, to the disgust of the likes of DSJ. So perversely, perhaps this corner helped save many lives.

 

I think there was a mention in TNF recently of DSJ at a GP listening to cars going through Masta and only two didn't lift off - Stewart and Amon.

[David Wright]

Jeremy Walton wrote the following about the 1972 Spa 24 hour race in his book on the Capri.

 

I was out stooging round in a Group 1 BMW: the blue and white Capri came past me on the straight, into the left right Masta Kink, travelling some 30-35 mph faster.  Into the corner it went, just nudging 160 mph, and the front wheel rose from the ground, a halo of dust, just like the ricochet effect in cowboy films, and Capri tilted right.  By this time it was getting out of my vision, but I could see there was at least one wheel airborne as the driver corrected the 160 mph tailslide ... who was it?  Stuck, who else?

[LittleChris]

Wasn't 1972 the year of the infamous " body parts at Masta" conversation between Stuck & Mass ?

[glyn parham]

That conversation was during the 1973 race, after the Dubois, Joisten crash.
Glyn

[nmansellfan]

Would it have been flat in the 1.5 litre F1 era? By '65 the cars were doing probably 160+mph into there but also had pretty wide tyres compared to previous years.

[David Wright]

In Doug Nye's BRM Vol 3, it says in 1964 Graham hill had to reduce speed slightly from 157 mph to 152 mph.  Graham believed Dan Gurney was taking Masta flat out in his Brabham. 

 

There is no specific mention of the Masta kink in the report on the 65 event.  The 65 yellow spot tyres offered more grip than the 65 green spots, but the BRMs now comfortably exceeded 160 mph.  The race itself was of course wet.

Edited by David Wright, 30 April 2014 - 20:04.

[LittleChris]

That conversation was during the 1973 race, after the Dubois, Joisten crash.
Glyn

Surely the Dubois Joisten accident happened at Malmedy not Masta  and I don't remember reading of any marshall being injured / killed ?

[wolf sun]

Surely the Dubois Joisten accident happened at Malmedy not Masta  and I don't remember reading of any marshall being injured / killed ?

I've always believed the Stuck/Mass conversation to be an urban myth. It just doesn't add up too well in German.

[Michael Ferner]

Agreed. Body parts (Körperteile) and body parts (Karosserieteile) are two very different words in German; impossible to confuse.


EDIT: Then again, they may not have spoken German, but Bavarian instead!! Does anyone know the respective words in Bavarian?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 November 2014 - 17:42.

[funformula]

Then again, they may not have spoken German, but Bavarian instead!! Does anyone know the respective words in Bavarian?

 

I think Mass might not have too much an idea of what Stuck is talking about when speaking Bavarian. It may sound to him a foreign language at times

[Michael Ferner]

Well, he was born there, and from his intonation and articulation I'd guess that he learned talking there, too. So, at the very least he should have been able to understand what was being said!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 November 2014 - 20:39.

[LittleChris]

I think Mass might not have too much an idea of what Stuck is talking about when speaking Bavarian. It may sound to him a foreign language at times

In that case maybe they had to communicate in English

Edited by LittleChris, 21 November 2014 - 20:49.

[hittheapex]

Derek Bell is in two of Motorsport Magazine's podcasts, both a good listen, but in the earlier one (February 2012), there is a good story about a close call he had at the Kink.

[john winfield]

Frank de Jong's website suggests that, in 1972, it was Walter Brun's Mazda that crashed at the Masta kink, killing a marshall.

[Doug Nye]

Leon Grisard - 1972 - see Motorsport Memorial:

http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=3586

DCN

[R.W. Mackenzie]

Amon taking the kink flat out in the March on the last lap in 1970, gaining 2 secs on Rodriguez. Still not quite enough to win, but I think it was the all time F1 record, even with the chicane before Stavelot.

 

Was there a chicane before Stavelot in 1970? I thought the only circuit change was at Malmedy, where instead of negotiating the fast drop to the right, the track stayed to the left, which lead to a very sharp turn to the right.

[wolf sun]

Was there a chicane before Stavelot in 1970? I thought the only circuit change was at Malmedy, where instead of negotiating the fast drop to the right, the track stayed to the left, which lead to a very sharp turn to the right.

No, there wasn't - I think Spa65 meant Malmedy.

[Spa65]

No, there wasn't - I think Spa65 meant Malmedy.

No, I did mean Stavelot (which also seems to get called "Holowell"). I've been trying to find out the corners on the old circuit and came across a plan showing a chicane at Malmedy, but this was reported to have disappeared when the track reopened about 1947.

 

It just sticks in my mind that the chicane was just before Stavelot - i saw a picture of it once, a bit like a smaller version of the bus stop chicane, also on the ouside of the circuit. Towards the end of F1 on the old circuit - possibly 1970 + or -. 

 

No doubt someone out there can clarify for certain exactly where it might have been.

[Spa65]

No, I did mean Stavelot (which also seems to get called "Holowell"). I've been trying to find out the corners on the old circuit and came across a plan showing a chicane at Malmedy, but this was reported to have disappeared when the track reopened about 1947.

 

It just sticks in my mind that the chicane was just before Stavelot - i saw a picture of it once, a bit like a smaller version of the bus stop chicane, also on the ouside of the circuit. Towards the end of F1 on the old circuit - possibly 1970 + or -. 

 

No doubt someone out there can clarify for certain exactly where it might have been.

I just "drove" down the road in Google Earth between the Masta kink and Stavelot. Also zoomed back for some aerial views. I must admit there doesn't seem to be any place suitable for my imagined chicane. I guess I erroneously assumed it was in that place.

 

So what was the 70's chicane like at Malmedy, and what exactly was its purpose? Too far back from the Masta kink I guess, so some other safety related reason?

[Tim Murray]

There are many earlier threads on Spa, its history and layout which the search engine can find for you. This one is probably the most comprehensive:

http://forums.autosp...circuit-thread/

although as usual most of the older photos are no longer visible. However, LittleChris posted a series of recent photos of the old circuit:

http://forums.autosp...-3#entry5224822

which included this one showing the entry into the Malmédy chicane:
 

2) Malmedy - The high speed curve follows the line of the hedge in the background. The tarmac from the triangular " Give Way " sign to the bottom left of the picture was used as part of the original circuit before Malmedy was eased in the 50's and then re-used from 1970 as the lead into the Malmedy chicane The bit of tarmac behind the rectangular sign is a later addition and was not part of the chicane nor the original Malmedy road junction .

This should help locate it on Google Earth.

Edited by Tim Murray, 25 November 2014 - 06:13.

[Glengavel]

There are many earlier threads on Spa, its history and layout which the search engine can find for you. This one is probably the most comprehensive:

http://forums.autosp...circuit-thread/

although as usual most of the older photos are no longer visible. However, LittleChris posted a series of recent photos of the old circuit:

http://forums.autosp...-3#entry5224822

which included this one showing the entry into the Malmédy chicane:
 

This should help locate it on Google Earth.

 

Here, I think...

 

https://maps.google....2,5.78,,0,22.68