28 replies to this topic

[ClubmanGT]

I know we have a rallying thread already, but this is a bit more than a catalog of things happening in rallying: I'm legitimately concerned we could be watching the destruction of the WRC as we know it:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113703

 

The potential for a single-stage shootout to decide overall positions on World Rally Championship rounds is under discussion again, with a decision expected in September.

 

The plan to radically revise the format of WRC rounds, first talked about 12 months ago, was a centre point of the meeting between manufacturers and the WRC Promoter firm last week.

 

Last year's proposal advocated that everything up to the final stage would simply decide the positions for a one-stage shootout on which the top 10 results would hinge.

 

The drivers in ninth and 10th would go head to head for ninth, with the process repeated upwards through the lead order before culminating in the drivers in first and second on 'whole rally' results battling for a victory decided solely on who was fastest on that stage.

 

 

Having seen the fans going from something resembling road cars to spec-built buggies not available to the general public, the disappearance of NZ and Safari rallies and the single service park cost cutting shambles, this really is the last straw for me as a fan.

 

I'd be interested to hear what RC has to say about this, the future of rallying, and what changes would need to be made to the sport, governance and promoter roles for rallying to survive, and at a long shot, thrive again. 

[BRG]

Complete nonsense of course.  I cannot imagine that anyone who is actually in rallying would contemplate this for a moment.  This would kill the WRC and the lower level championships would simply take up the slack.  Rallying is a competitor driven sport overall and the WRC is just a very small pimple on the top of a large mountain of rallying.

 

Who the hell IS this mysteriously anonymous "WRC Promoter" anyway?  Don't they have a name?

[ClubmanGT]

Who the hell IS this mysteriously anonymous "WRC Promoter" anyway?  Don't they have a name?

 

Joint venture between Sportsman Media Group and Red Bull: 

 

http://www.thesports...moter-gmbh.html

 

It seems the plan is to turn the WRC into the European Rallycross series, rather than preserve and develop its rich history. 

[ArnageWRC]

Exactly as I thought; we already have Global RallyCross and the new FiA World RallyX Championship..... So RedBull want to take the WRC directly head on with a 'made for TV shoot out'.

Unbelievable really; I notice the VW boss is the only one going public on this. If you don't like the WRC format - then go!!

RedBull have been a bitter disappointment since acquiring the Promoter rights; they have their own internet TV station, but have underused it. Instead, have gone for the quick £££££ win with selling rights to pay TV.

It's like having the 3 week Tour de France, and deciding it with a 100m sprint on the final day; or deciding Le Mans with a fastest lap competition in the final 10 minutes of the race - despite the top 2 being 5 laps apart. Utter madness.

I can't think of too many other Motorsport series that keep 'selling out' and wanting to change the fabric of the sport. And we wonder why the WRC has struggled in the last 10-15 years.

RedBull need to get promoting properly - and stop the stupid gimmicks.

[FBJim]

It's a great long-term plan if one were a conspiracy theorist, of course. Systematically remove everything alluring about the sport to the true, hardcore spectators and fans, then, once they've been reduced in number, claim that the days of classic rallying are past, and the sport needs to modernize. Of course, it's most likely just complete incompetence. Incidentally, the most amusing thing about this to me is remembering conversations about the F1 formula change, with people fantasizing about Red Bull making a breakaway series with real engine sounds, and real glory-days racing again. They'd probably turn the sport into a drifting competition instead. 

 

 

 

Who the hell IS this mysteriously anonymous "WRC Promoter" anyway?  Don't they have a name?

 

It's basically Red Bull. 

[BRG]

If only FlatOverCrest still posted here.  He could tell us how much better the WRC promotion is now compared to the previous promoter against whom he held such a massive grudge.

[ArnageWRC]

If only FlatOverCrest still posted here.  He could tell us how much better the WRC promotion is now compared to the previous promoter against whom he held such a massive grudge.

A lot of the previous are still involved I think. The problem is these 'media types' don't understand the sport - and come out with grand plans. Saying that, DR was the one who started the WRC on it's slippery slope; and it's never really recovered.

It's not F1 on gravel, it's not racing....So stop trying to make it so.

[chunder27]

To be perfectly honest, coming from another angle as I do as a long time rallycross fan, you have had your time!

 

WRC has mad a zillion chances, had stacks of money thrown at it on just about every single tv channel in Britain and possibly the world and failed to realise its potential.

 

Rallycross has finally got the right people involved (despite being in a very precarious position in the UK) and gone for the jugular.

 

American rallycross has nothing to do with World RX, they are entirely separate, but you can see what has gone on. It works far better on tv, the cars are similar, they are faster, they are more spectacular, the drivers are of similar quality at the top end, but not lower down, it's all in one place, whats the loss for a tv firm or sponsor wanting to get into this sort of motorsport?

 

It appeals to the X games crowd far more than rallying ever did, and sadly that is the market PR people think we all want to be in, and they control the marketing budgets, not fans standing in forests I am afraid.

 

I do feel though that WRC is suffering from the same thing that F1 suffered from, Domination does NOONE any good apart from the one guy dominating and his team. Everyone else loses interest, viewers, other teams, tv companies. And you have had 10 years or more of it in WRC, and this is the result. First Loeb now Ogier, and lets be honest who cares. I couldnt care less about the same bloke winning every week, and therefore I dont tune in.

 

World rallycross has timed it perfectly, nicked the biggest crowd puller in WRC Solberg and capitalised on the lack of interest in WRC.

 

It is a shame as in guys like Ostberg, Evans Neuville and a few others you have top talent, but I am sorry to say this meeting and plans are all a result of world rallycross gaining massive popularity and credibility.

 

This year VW, Citroen, Peugeot and Ford are invovled, not works teams but backing. And you know how that is gonna make the WRC big bods feel.

Edited by chunder27, 30 April 2014 - 21:54.

[Sheepmachine]

It's just insane, I don't understand the logic behind it. It just makes the rest of the rally pointless. WRC just seems determined to kill itself off with stupid decisions. It will all be just so it appeals to the casual fan (I.e making into a gimmick). I hope there is a massive outcry about this from the fans (the people who matter) and they scrap this idea.

[ClubmanGT]

I suspect VW are only keen on it because it gives people a reason to still watch even when their cars are miles out in front for three days. 

 

I'm fairly sure the key to the WRC's future/success is to look to its past:

 

1. Bring back Group A. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday was the way things worked when the WRC was at the height of its power, and the WRC and road cars both benefited from this real-life performance aspect. Set the formula and the manufacturers will come. 

2. Keep the 14 rounds bring back the classic rallies in Africa and in New Zealand. Don't let countries game the system like Australia did for years. 

3. Four day rallies - Exhibition/Stage One Thurs and then three days of full competition. Ten stages with two repeated a day or eight stages with one repeated a day. Reward spectators for following the rally instead of bunching up stages so you can't see more than two in a day, both repeats of previous stages.

4. Bring back the video games - the current franchise is a failure and isn't improving. Bernie wouldn't stand for it, and neither should we. 

5. Lock rules/calendar in place for five - seven years at a time. Teams are free to entry and exit but the stability of the sport and the Group A road vehicles and events there needs to be a long-term agreement.

6. If you want to do the gimmicky marketing stuff, then include a RWD class with unrestricted HP to run alongside the WRC for the Red Bulls and Monster Energy Drinks of the World.

 

I also have a fairly radical idea regarding purchasing the rights to the old Escort and a licensed Stratos and replacing WRC2 with a combined Historic Rookie series, but I'll save that for when I'm head of the WRC Commission 

[ArnageWRC]

The sport possibly needs a shake up - and some of the top brass need replacing.

One of the WRC's attractions was it's diversity; Tarmac, snow/ice, gravel, mixed events, day/ night, anything from 2-5 days, etc
Now it's mainly Friday - Sunday... And quite often the final day is a few stages and less than 50km of competitive distance.

This generic WRC event is not the answer.

Safari, NZ, Sanremo, Corsica, Acropolis - all classic events, and none in this years WRC calendar.

[chunder27]

"Im sure the key to its succes is to look at its past"

 

Try putting that to any kind of sports marketing group!

 

And they will ask you to leave.

 

WRC has had many chances and enjoyed the limelight many times, notably in the late 70's, the Gp B era, and the late 90's. But those time have gone.

 

I hope something can be done, but WRC as it stands right now is a struggle to get interested in.

 

Not sure what the solution is, but I fear it aint rallying!

[ClubmanGT]

"Im sure the key to its succes is to look at its past"

 

Try putting that to any kind of sports marketing group!

 

And they will ask you to leave.

 

Hopefully the sports marketing groups will go extinct before the sport does, they're the problem here 

[rhukkas]

WRC is not a viewer friendly sport, it's very very difficult to follow. The action can't be broadcast live because of the nature of the sport bar the odd stage. You need highlights packages and that rarely paints the full picture. The personalities, like with F1, have gone too.

 

The only thing that would get me watching WRC is if the cars themselves were something special. And quite frankly they are dull as dishwater.

Edited by rhukkas, 01 May 2014 - 09:53.

[BRG]

To be perfectly honest, coming from another angle as I do as a long time rallycross fan, you have had your time!

Rallycross has existed since 1967 when it was invented as a temporary TV substitute for real rallying which was suspended due to foot and mouth disease.  It had its moments of glory in the following decades but has fallen back to a stable but fairly low key level.  You mention that it 'nicked' Solberg from the WRC but the truth is that he fell out of the WRC and took to rallycross as the next best thing, not as a conscious preference.  Offer Petter a top WRC seat and rallycross wouldn't see him for dust.

 

Anyway, rallycross isn't a substitute for rallying.  It is an artificial circuit based racing series and appeals to certain people because that is what they enjoy.   But whenever I see it, I find it gets tedious pretty quickly.  The same few cars going round and round the same short track - dull, dull, dull.  How can it ever compare to the sight of a rally car flat out down a mountain road or a forest track?  Maybe it is harder for TV to cover it, but why reduce everything to the lowest common denominator?  Properly done, TV coverage of rallying can be gripping in a way that rallycross can never be.  Let's face, just one rally stage is longer than a whole day's rallycross action and it doesn't include silly gimmicks like 'joker laps'. But if you don't get it, fair enough, we don't all like the same things.

 

The problem at WRC level (and remember there is plenty of healthy rallying at ERC, national and club levels in many countries) is that those running in don't seem to understand the sport.  It needs to go Back to the Future to reclaim its unique character, not to go forward to a world of homogenised, pasteurised, neutered sameness.  If every WRC rally looks and sounds the same, people will lose interest.  If each one brings different elements - snow, heat, gravel, tarmac, flat lands, mountains, fast roads, twisty roads, day-time, night-time - people will be drawn in.  Some promoter with a bit of imagination might see this, but sadly the Bernie formula seems to have overtaken the whole FIA world.

[chunder27]

BRG, sorry fella, but Petter came from rallycross orginally, he knew his time was up and is now more than happy in rallycross, he would not go back unless you piad him gazillions and offered him a VW. I can promise you that. Read his blog.

 

Rallycross is not at all artificial, it is a bona fide race series that is growing after many years in the doldrums. It used to get huge crowds in the Group B days, often bigger than some national rallies which is no mean feat.

 

I agree it is not the same, but quite honestly, you have to ask why it is growing?

 

Is it because all of sudden people have started getting into it?  No, coz the fanbase has always been small in comparison to WRC, there are a few new fans coz of games and Top Gear, but not many. Is it because there is a new team running it, they have managed to make it global and not just European based and also attracted new talent, albeit washed up guys from a few series who knew theri career in that series was done, like Villeneuve and Petter.

 

But they are also attracting current talent like Matias Ekstrom, Per Gunnar Andersson, Patrick Sandell, Andrew Jordan. All guys who are young, competitive in their chosen series.

 

WRX is more than happy to let them come in for odd rounds, it raises the profile. Loeb put thousands on last years France ERC round, and what do you know Monster brought over Vaughn Gittin to donut round in a Mustang.

 

It might not be purist, but to be perfectly honest in this day and age purist is dead, unless you like rubbish like Le Mans. One stage longer than a days action?  Maybe, but also more expensive, harder to get to, difficult to televise and boring as there is no racing. If you wanna see one car at a time go watch Berg Cup.

 

I don't know the answer for WRC, they have had so much opportunuity and seemingly it is on a downward spiral. Heavily reliant on Arab money for the older teams involvement and necessariily then allowing poor, second rate drivers into the teams.

 

I wish I knew the answer, but at the moment aam delighted to see a sport I love finally being aggressive, going for it and hopefully getting some deserved coverage and breaking away form its poor relation to WRC tag.

 

As for rallycross being tedious, Jeez man, the same bloke wins every rally, how damned tedious is that, and it's been the case for 10 years. Nothing you can ever say about rallycross makes it tedious!  Fast races, lots of aggression, loose and tar, joker lap that adds excitment.  Not purist, but hey who gives a damn really.

 

Whatever floats your boat really, am happy watching rallying on a basic level, where it should be really. Just wish I knew the answer, do you think anyone does??

[BRG]

 

Whatever floats your boat really

Indeed.  I have nothing against rallycross and if people enjoy it and follow it, then good luck to them,  But no way is it ever going to supersede rallying.  One is the full cream wild creature, the other is the domesticated kitten.

[chunder27]

I guess with an attitude like that there is no surprise that WRC is struggling.

 

Things change folks.

 

And despite trying just about everything, you cant do much about WRC sadly.

 

I would rather be a kitten than cream that has gone off!

[ClubmanGT]

Rallycross isn't a recent thing - they've lived side by side before, so I'm not sure why all of a sudden it's becoming survival of the fittest.

 

I just doubt the WRC has ever been in such poor shape.

 

I do agree rallying is at a cross-roads though - it can either go back to the longer rally format, or it can die.

 

 

It can't become rally cross as well. Otherwise it's not rallying. 

 

 

 

E: Incidentally, I bought a car a few months ago. I wanted something with motorsport pedigree so went looking. You can't get  an AWD Citreon/Mini/Focus/Fiesta, so they were out. Getting most of the WRC era cars in NZ is also nigh on impossible, so those were the generic Subbies and Evos out of the picture. I've ended up with a very nice homologation 1994 GT-Four WRC in my garage. 

 

That's the problem with rallying - I had to buy a 20 year old car to get one that resembled a World Rally car in any meaningful way. Rallying has no future unless it returns to production Group A roots. 

Edited by ClubmanGT, 02 May 2014 - 07:33.

[chunder27]

Good point clubman

 

And in the same way in rallycross, there is no entry level way in, you would have to use something like you are using, and modify it greatly, or go straight in and spend over 100 grnad on a besoke car built by pros!

 

there are very ways to get into the sports higher levels cheaply and easily.

 

You would ahve struggled in the 90's by the way, but you could and still can compete at GpN level, but those cars are for some ungodly reaosn, insanely expensive to build and maintain.

 

You can see why the FIA is doing what it's doing, especially with regional cars.

 

But the most successful cars of recent era are the S2000 Pegeot/Skodas.. Why?  Coz theya re standardised and relatively cheap. They dont cost as much tp run and maintain as GpN, sound niceish, loook cool and you can win events in them.

[DrProzac]

The shootout idea is awful.

[404KF2]

No Safari, Acropolis, Tour de Corse, San Remo etc, well the current series is stupid anyway without these events. They are not easily presented on TV but so what. Sometimes following the money is a bad thing. Who even cares if manufacturers support it? Real rallying still exists.

[BRG]

I guess with an attitude like that there is no surprise that WRC is struggling.

 

Things change folks.

 

And despite trying just about everything, you cant do much about WRC sadly.

 

I would rather be a kitten than cream that has gone off!

Let's all join the race to the lowest common denominator. 

[ClubmanGT]

Bumping this thread (if I can) as this proposal has been accepted.

 

This is your 2015 World Rally Championship. 

[ensign14]

It's funny, the more they sanitize and emasculate rallying, so that all the variables are taken out and the costs supposedly cut, the fewer people give a flying monkey's toss about it.

 

They could go back to the old school days of no pacenotes and people rocking up in their roadcars and so on and that would improve things massively.  And of course with the politically incorrect carnivorism of the Safari and Ivory Coast rallies.  Even the London-Sydney as a massive event.

 

The real miss is on exploiting internet coverage - GPS for all cars, online comparisons between where competitors were on the stages at the appropriate times, in-car cameras everywhere and so on.  Everything F1 should do but doesn't.

[Vic Vega]

This just in: "Letter C within acronym WRC will from now on officially stand for Circus, as we feel it has been misinterpreted by vast majority of people for the previous 6 seasons to be standing for Championship."

[F1matt]

There was a point when I loved rallying more than F1 and I think for someone of my age (early 40's) who got to see Group B in the flesh may feel the same?? I was devastated when they banned Group B but I understood the reasons and loved Group A because of its competitiveness and the variety of manufacturers and the different style of drivers, all this with limited TV coverage, despite well attended events and a knowledgeable audience (dare I say more than F1 at the time)

 

Just to comment on a few of ClubmanGT's points:

 

1. Bring back Group A. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday was the way things worked when the WRC was at the height of its power, and the WRC and road cars both benefited from this real-life performance aspect. Set the formula and the manufacturers will come. 

 

 

Love the idea but does win on Sunday sell Monday still work? A strong WRC will lead to strong National Championships and the cars will filter down, as will the sales of cars and parts, any new formula has to introduce cars that are less complicated and cheaper to build, sell, and maintain. Maybe something similar to Super bikes compared to MotoGP???

 

 

 

2. Keep the 14 rounds bring back the classic rallies in Africa and in New Zealand. Don't let countries game the system like Australia did for years. 

 

Personally I would reduce the championship to 12 rounds, go with the one a month format to reduce costs.

 

 

3. Four day rallies - Exhibition/Stage One Thurs and then three days of full competition. Ten stages with two repeated a day or eight stages with one repeated a day. Reward spectators for following the rally instead of bunching up stages so you can't see more than two in a day, both repeats of previous stages.

 

Try and throw a night stage in as well, I would have stages Thursday and Friday evenings, all day Saturday and finish Sunday afternoon. This gives people a better chance of seeing the action after they have finished work.

 

 

4. Bring back the video games - the current franchise is a failure and isn't improving. Bernie wouldn't stand for it, and neither should we. 

 

 

5. Lock rules/calendar in place for five - seven years at a time. Teams are free to entry and exit but the stability of the sport and the Group A road vehicles and events there needs to be a long-term agreement.

 

Manufacturer points should only be awarded to teams that commit to all rounds of the championship.

 

6. If you want to do the gimmicky marketing stuff, then include a RWD class with unrestricted HP to run alongside the WRC for the Red Bulls and Monster Energy Drinks of the World.

 

I also have a fairly radical idea regarding purchasing the rights to the old Escort and a licensed Stratos and replacing WRC2 with a combined Historic Rookie series, but I'll save that for when I'm head of the WRC Commission  

 

 

Why not run a shorter masters event alongside the rally with older drivers, eg Carlos Sainz in a Toyota Celica Gt4 and  Markku Alen in a Lancia Delta? This would entice older rally fans to the stages to attract them to the latest cars.

 

 

Great topic by the way.

Edited by F1matt, 13 June 2014 - 20:06.

[FBJim]

Red Bull are deliberately trying to kill rallying so they can reform it in their preferred arena/X-Games image. They are a cancer on international motorsport.

[AlexLangheck]

Red Bull are deliberately trying to kill rallying so they can reform it in their preferred arena/X-Games image. They are a cancer on international motorsport.

I must admit, I've thought something similar; they've done absolutely nothing in promoting the WRC. All they've done is sell it to TV, mainly PayTV....that is NOT promotion. Will they start when it becomes WRC-Lite..??