Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 3 votes

Beating top-class team-mates vs winning WDCs


  • Please log in to reply
198 replies to this topic

#1 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:40

I didn't want to drag the Vettel v Ricciardo thread off-topic, so decided to start a separate thread.

 

It all started from discussion that Vettel's titles do not have enough "importance" if he wasn't beating top-notch team-mates and the careers of some other drivers have more "value" if they were beating champion team-mates, even if they themselves were not winning titles at the time.

 
I have argued that ultimately drivers are racing for results and titles. If they do not get results, everything else is lesser and just a consolation, which do not make up for the disappointment of really not winning. "Voted as the best driver" is not the same as REALLY winning on track. 
 
Ultimate results count more than beating good team-mates. I used Button example. He beat Villeneuve in 2003, but finished 9th in the WDC. Who cares about that any more? His 2004, 2009 and 2011 stick much more to the mind. Because he finished in top three in the championship. You make a name for yourself by being at the sharp end.

 

Remember Nick Heidfeld. He beat lots of good drivers, among them both former and future WDCs or runner-ups. However, he didn't get a single race win. Is he happy about his career? Certainly not. He may have been beating good team-mates, but he didn't get the ultimate awards every driver is aspiring for. Is Heidfeld now remembered as a driver, who beat everyone (in his team)? Not really, he is remembered as a perennial midfielder, who didn't get the chances. And if you don't get the results, then regardless of which drivers you beat people question you - people question if you were good enough at all. Because results don't back it up.

 

Hakkinen-Coulthard. DC beat Hakkinen in two seasons (97/01), neither in which he won the title. Hakkinen beat Coulthard in seasons in which he actually won the title. In the end Hakkinen has much more reason to be happy with his career, because he won the titles and beat his team-mate "at the right time", when it really counted - when the titles were on the line.

 

I am pretty sure Alonso would prefer winning a race with a rubbish team-mate alongside him (say, Piquet Jr) than finish 5th while Raikkonen finishes 7th, beating a WDC in the process.



Advertisement

#2 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:43

What makes you think you can't do both?

 

This was the initial quote by Afterburner which sparked this discussion;

 

 

I'd rather be the 10x undefeated WDC with rubbish teammates my whole career than the one or two time champion that is undefeated against 10 WDC teammates, anyway. You don't get to the top of the leaderboard by beating your teammate--you get there by beating everyone.

 

Winning 2 championships is still excellent; and beating all the WDC teammates in your era in the process would be the icing on the cake.

 

Hypothetically speaking, imagine you having a career in F1 from 2000 to 2012. You win 2 championships, but more importantly, you beat Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button and Vettel all in the same equipment (eg. every champion in your era).

 

If that doesn't make you one of the very best, if not the best in history, then I don't know what does.

 

I would prefer such a career even to Schumacher's, although perhaps that's just me.



#3 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:51

I think I prefer 10 WDCs. Especially as there is a pretty big difference between 10 and 2 WDCs.

 

For me beating a team-mate is just one of the competitors. Yes an important competitor, but he is still just one out of 20/22 or whatever we have on the grid. Finish 3rd, 5th or 7th and be ahead of my team-mate? Okay. But I take winning, because if I won I'd not only be ahead of my team-mate, but everybody else too. :D And if you got 10 titles, you were beating absolutely everyone.

 

Beating team-mate is also very relative, because it depends on how good form he is. I.e you may beat your WDC team-mate, but it may turn out he is not performing very well at all, is past his prime or whatever. Mansell 1995, Schumacher 2010-2012. Or even Massa. He was almost a WDC. But did beating Massa feel like a great achievement for Alonso during 2010-2013? Not really. He got much more enjoyment from racing against McLaren and Red Bulls, because they were hard to beat on track. Even if they were other cars. Racing against cars from other teams is also fun if you can compete against them, I don't need to necessarily race against my team-mate wheel-to-wheel.

 

If I was beating all those guys you mentioned, be it Villeneuve, Vettel or whoever, chances are at least some of them wouldn't have been at their prime, either too young or old. Or would have for some reason not adapted to the car so well. Or whatever, there can be an excuse or room for discussion anyway. For me convincingly beating an on-form Webber, Barrichello or Coulthard would not be a lesser achievement. I don't care, who my team-mate is and how well he performs as long as I win.

 

Beating lots of WDC team-mates feels great? Based on how they perform this year, beating Ricciardo in 2014 for Vettel may be a greater achievement than beating Raikkonen in 2014 for Alonso. So I do not base my career goals on which "names" I beat. Name is one thing, performance another. Alonso is doing exactly what you wish, Kingshark. He is a double WDC and now beating a former champion in the team. But I am pretty sure he'd prefer to win these races right now with Nakajima as his team-mate than to endure the current situation. Regardless of him already having won 2 titles.

 

So Ricciardo has been beating Vettel recently? It looks like Vettel has been underperforming. So exactly the same case we were discussing about., performance is relative. So what about Ricciardo? Good achievement for sure, it has raised his stock. So mission completed? Not really. He wants to win championships one day. If he doesn't, the most important thing will be missing.

 

Hamilton won WDC in 2008, while his team-mate was "only" an underperforming Kovalainen. Does it devalue the achievement? No, he had a great battle against Ferraris. Schumacher won in 1994 alongside Lehto/Verstappen, who were absolutely nowhere. Did it matter to him? I think he took great enjoyment from beating Williams, who had just been the team to beat the year before. Piquet had Hector Rebaque alongside him in Brabham in 1981. But I am sure winning the title felt great for him.


Edited by sopa, 30 April 2014 - 22:12.


#4 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,235 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:57

Aw, I just started a topic about this. Maybe we can merge them? Pretty please? Mine has a shiny poll and a 'trying hard to be funny OP'?

Please?

#5 Logiso

Logiso
  • Member

  • 313 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:42

As long as I had something to show for my efforts(2 championships is good), I would care more about my reputation amongst my peers than the result itself. I would rather for example be the 2 time champion who beat the 10 times champion when hes my team mate to win those championships over being the 10 times champion getting beat because I would be regarded as better than him. Sometimes things don't go your way with luck, you need to be in the right place at the right time to even have a chance of winning the championship no matter how good you are so I wouldn't want to look too hard at what I achieved in terms of wins/championships.



#6 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 8,506 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:45

I am pretty sure Alonso would prefer winning a race with a rubbish team-mate alongside him (say, Piquet Jr) than finish 5th while Raikkonen finishes 7th, beating a WDC in the process.

 

As soon as you beat them, previously highly regarded team-mates are labelled as rubbish.



#7 DKMoto

DKMoto
  • Member

  • 210 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:22

For me its simple.

 

Give me the stats and everyone else can have all the accolades.

 

Give me the Win and you can have everything, the legion of adoring fans, the trolls on here who will defend you to death about how amazing you are, who you beat and when. I dont care, aslong as it says MY name on the winners list, THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.

 

Read some history books, trying to hate on a champion and try to belittle his accomplishments is as old as us humans. Thats what losers and fans of losers do, they debate and convince themselves how the loser is actually the "moral champion".

 

 

Just look at the last few years who's been finishing 2nd or 3rd and go find some posts from middle of november about this discussion when the WDC finished.

 

Just look at the Driver vs Driver threads from each year, the loser will always have 100x legionaries and forum posts dedicated to "salvaging his rep"


Edited by DKMoto, 30 April 2014 - 23:24.


#8 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,621 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:35

For me its simple.

 

Give me the stats and everyone else can have all the accolades.

 

Give me the Win and you can have everything, the legion of adoring fans, the trolls on here who will defend you to death about how amazing you are, who you beat and when. I dont care, aslong as it says MY name on the winners list, THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.

 

Read some history books, trying to hate on a champion and try to belittle his accomplishments is as old as us humans. Thats what losers and fans of losers do, they debate and convince themselves how the loser is actually the "moral champion".

 

 

Just look at the last few years who's been finishing 2nd or 3rd and go find some posts from middle of november about this discussion when the WDC finished.

 

Just look at the Driver vs Driver threads from each year, the loser will always have 100x legionaries and forum posts dedicated to "salvaging his rep"

So you think Senna was a 'loser' with regard to Schumacher? Are you saying context counts for nothing?

 

Both options are fabulous careers, we are splitting hairs so to speak, within levels at the top of the hierarchy of greatness in the sport. How you can use the word 'loser' is beyond me.



#9 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 00:16

For me its simple.

 

Give me the stats and everyone else can have all the accolades.

 

Give me the Win and you can have everything, the legion of adoring fans, the trolls on here who will defend you to death about how amazing you are, who you beat and when. I dont care, aslong as it says MY name on the winners list, THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.

 

Read some history books, trying to hate on a champion and try to belittle his accomplishments is as old as us humans. Thats what losers and fans of losers do, they debate and convince themselves how the loser is actually the "moral champion".

 

 

Just look at the last few years who's been finishing 2nd or 3rd and go find some posts from middle of november about this discussion when the WDC finished.

 

Just look at the Driver vs Driver threads from each year, the loser will always have 100x legionaries and forum posts dedicated to "salvaging his rep"

Too much absolute thinking in this post.

 

The bit I bolded is something that is just incorrect in my opinion. It is like saying that a boxer who takes on 100 average fighters and wins 100, is going to be better than a boxer who takes on 50 great fighters and beats them all. Quantity of stats does not always reflect quality of performance. Who you beat matters. It is like if I pulled Cara Delevingne and you pulled 30 women ................ ah forget it 

 

You have a point, there is a tendency to knock the winner. Some have been licking their chops for years just trying to discredit Senna. Schumi, Vettel or whoever was winning titles more than others. Its just nature. The last sentence is wrong. The winner of teammate duels can have an equal amount of fans. Michael Schumacher is much more popular than Rubens worldwide. 

 

Your "us vs them nature" is too absolute as well. Check back to November, most on the forum were saying how well Vettel drover, including fans of other drivers.

 

I would suggest you go a little too wound up when posting. Maybe a nice cup of tea would do you good   ;)


Edited by sennafan24, 01 May 2014 - 00:23.


#10 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 00:22

As soon as you beat them, previously highly regarded team-mates are labelled as rubbish.

Nah

 

Prost was not considered crap after 1988. Senna was not considered crap after 1989. Was Alonso considered crap after Lewis beat him in 2007?

 

Massa would suit your point, but only because Alonso schooled him for 4 years. Even then he is considered an "average" driver by most, not rubbish.



#11 Kingshark

Kingshark
  • Member

  • 2,944 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:38

For me its simple.

 

Give me the stats and everyone else can have all the accolades.

 

Give me the Win and you can have everything, the legion of adoring fans, the trolls on here who will defend you to death about how amazing you are, who you beat and when. I dont care, aslong as it says MY name on the winners list, THATS ALL THAT MATTERS.

 

Read some history books, trying to hate on a champion and try to belittle his accomplishments is as old as us humans. Thats what losers and fans of losers do, they debate and convince themselves how the loser is actually the "moral champion".

 

Way the go on completely failing to understand the purpose of this thread. Beating a teammate is not a subjective accolade, it is an objective achievement.

 

Imagine this scenario;

 

1. Driver X, a 5 time world champion has won all his championships with the best car and a mediocre teammate.

2. Driver Y, a 2 time WDC of the same era has won both his championships beating other champions in the same car, and without the best machinery (eg. Prost 86).

3. Driver X joins the same team as Driver Y, both are in the prime of their career, and Driver Y blows Driver X away in the many seasons they spend as teammates.

4. Driver Y has many extraordinary drives such as Donington 93, Barcelona 96, which are remembered for decades to come. Driver X did nothing memorable.

 

Who will history rate higher? I know which one I'd like to be.

 

There's a reason Stirling Moss is rated above many champions despite being statistically inferior, numbers are not everything, even if you claim they are.


Edited by Kingshark, 01 May 2014 - 01:38.


#12 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 6,130 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 May 2014 - 02:00

Id like to be half way - able to beat the best, with a good record including some WDC's.



#13 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 02:14

The point is, as a driver you would always try to maximize your career. I am sure Sir Stirling would have liked to have won a title at least. If you are actively racing in your career, you try to get into the best teams possible. Has anyone heard of a driver, who is trying to choose the best team-mates for himself? Hardly. They look out for best teams. If anything, they prefer to block top drivers joining them in the same team, especially if said team is performing super good.

 

Luca di Montezemolo and others haven't said without reason that "two roosters in a henhouse doesn't work". I believe here is some romanticism at play - "oh it would be very nice to beat all those top drivers in the same team, then I will be a legend". Reality is, if two top drivers, who both aim to be legends, race in the same team, it could often mean unbearable amount of stress. And that's why stars often avoid each other or we have in-team complications. 

 

If you really were in the stressful business, you'd take the "easy" route. Win the titles against rubbish team-mates and enjoy. If you get bored of winning, just join another team like Vale Rossi did by switching to Yamaha. The point however is switching a team here, hardly anybody joins a "challenging team-mate" just for fun.

 

Senna, mentioned a few times as the rolemodel of "being rated as the best even when not winning", blocked Derek Warwick from Lotus and was prepared to drive for Williams in 1993 for free just to get his hands on the best machinery. Was being rated as the best driver good enough for him? Hell, no. He was desperate for results and winning as much as he could.

 

If there is someone more talented than you in the field and people rate him higher, then what? You can be only as good as you possibly can be and based on how good you are and how good options open up in the team line-up merry-go-round, you try to have the best possible career.

 

In the end, people argue about the best drivers throughout history. People argued about Senna v Schumacher 20 years ago, argue now as well. Those arguments will last forever without any conclusion. But the amount of titles will never change and is unarguable, it is a fact. But caring about endless arguments of who the best driver really is or was - well, I wouldn't bother to be honest. And reputation is fickle, some people will argue you were great with your 10 titles, some argue you weren't. Why bother. Just enjoy.


Edited by sopa, 01 May 2014 - 02:23.


#14 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 4,544 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:45

It depends on the cirumstances.


Edited by George Costanza, 01 May 2014 - 03:51.


#15 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 17,232 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 04:23

Nice thread.

 

 

Both Rossi and Schumacher gave up certain comfort to risk their careers and results in teams which had not won in a very long time. It paid off handsomely and they conquered unprecedented success. But then both eventually reached a point in which they would not win more titles or significantly extend their records, yet they continued to race (Rossi still does, obviously).

 

So I guess it comes and goes between racing for winning and racing for the simple pleasure and sense of accomplishment (which comes from only beating teammates). And even when both are matched and notorious, there is no telling when enough becomes enough.


Edited by Atreiu, 01 May 2014 - 04:39.


#16 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,395 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:02

When you look at a list of the teammates of champions over the past 15 years, you get Webber, Barrichello, Kovalainen, Massa and Fisichella.

 

All of the champs had poor results and even 'lost' seasons against non established or non rated drivers.



#17 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 8,657 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:04

I am sure Sir Stirling would have liked to have won a title at least. If you are actively racing in your career, you try to get into the best teams possible


Funnily enough, I can't think of anyone who relished the role of playing the underdog as much as Stirling, taking on the works teams in a private outfit. Of course, he could see the advantages in that too (choice of chassis for example), but he was also good enough to know he could take on and beat the best that anyone else had to offer, even if some of the choices he made during that period were in hindsight not the wisest.

#18 Masenco

Masenco
  • Member

  • 819 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:45

The answer can be found somewhat by looking at the reputations of Lewis and Vettel.
Both are generally considered to be in the top 3 drivers of the era; Vettel has the better stats, yet if you polled the paddock on the driver which they would be confident in saying is faster Lewis would come out on top due to him consistently beating wdc and proven teammates.

Does that mean that Lewis is more satisfied with his current position in his career than Vettel? I dont think so.

I think it's a balancing act between the two variables, but if i could only choose one id go for the wdcs

Edited by Masenco, 01 May 2014 - 09:50.


#19 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 7,265 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:53

When you look at a list of the teammates of champions over the past 15 years, you get Webber, Barrichello, Kovalainen, Massa and Fisichella.

 

All of the champs had poor results and even 'lost' seasons against non established or non rated drivers.

 

Vettel never has.  That is the point - every driver's trajectory is different.  Thus it is unfair to insist on criteria they are highly unlikely or can never meet. 

 

One can't pick a teammate or engineer, but the sport ensures the grand prize is open to all every year - the WDC champion cup.  That is why it is the only fair measure among top drivers in top cars.

 

I think 100% of athletes in every sport in the world would pick winning the championship over shining in some area of the sport.  

 

Just last year America watched a football team destroy nearly every other team it played, then they lost the superbowl and every last player is depressed as hell, despite everyone saying how they are beasts and awesome for the way they played all year.   The goal is to win it all, not to shine while losing.  Of course, shining while winning is best of all.


Edited by bourbon, 01 May 2014 - 10:07.


Advertisement

#20 skc

skc
  • Member

  • 1,748 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:02

The bottom line here is that people are upset that their favorite driver has far less WDC than someone they simply don't like or rate.

 

And as a result they now have to do everything possible to belittle said WDC's stats.

 

I find that petty in the highest.

 

When you win a championship, by definition you have beaten everybody. Whether he is a teammate or not is a technicality that is peculiar to Formula 1 and I honestly could care less about it. And so should whoever wins the championship.



#21 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:07

Focussing on winning WDCs lets you beat top-class team-mates along the way. The day you lose track of the ultimate goal (winning WDC) and start focussing on "moral victories", you'll also start losing to your team mate. Life is funny like that. 



#22 UbiquitousPeas

UbiquitousPeas
  • Member

  • 30 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:05

I suspect that the majority of those posters in this thread  taking the ultra literal "WDC is the only thing which matters" line, are self-styled Sebastian Vettel fans. I further suspect that those views are shaped largely by support/loyalty/misguided subjectivity when it comes to Herr Vettel. Furthermore, if I'm correct with my suspicions, the timing of this thread is hardly surprising given that Ricciardo has so far been widely regarded to have outperformed Vettel as a teammate.

 

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can be a fan of F1 and deliberately and selectively ignore the simple fact that F1 is a team sport. All WDCs are at the mercy of their machinery both in terms of its performance and its reliability. Straightaway that gives context for each and every WDC's career and achievement(s). Yet that is only one example of context in an F1 career. The ability levels of teammates is, of course, another.

 

Given that F1 is a team sport, the PP/race wins/WDC stats of a driver merely tells us how successful they were. It does not tell us about their entire careers. Afterall, why is 3xWDC Ayrton Senna often said to the greatest F1 driver of all time, when there is a 7xWDC, a 5xWDC and two 4xWDCs? Whilst "greatest driver of all time" is an impossible debate to prove, the sheer fact that none of these debates (or articles in print) rank the drivers neatly along the lines of numbers of WDCs won, tells us that there is more to F1 than just amounts of WDC titles.

 

Or you can compare it other ways. Why isn't a 1xWDC such as Hill, rated as highly as another 1xWDC Mansell? Why has F1 history forgotten, to a certain extent, a 3xWDC such as Piquet? Why does a 4xWDC such as Vettel struggle to get the widespread respect of a 2xWDC such as Alonso and to a lesser extent, a 1xWDC in Hamilton? I suggest it all comes back to context, such as F1 being a team sport, machinery, teammates and sometimes just plain old luck.

 

Coming back to my own thoughts, the depth behind F1 results (i.e given that it is a team sport) is one of the most appealing aspects of F1. There is so, so, so much more to F1 than just results and stats. Of course stats and success are a huge measure of any driver's career but the beauty of F1 is that stats and success never tell the whole story. I simply do not understand how anyone can have such a shallow approach of "WDCs are the only measure" and enjoy watching F1. I wonder if such people even begin to understand what they're watching.

 

Afterall, if stats and success were the the only measure, Senna would never have gone beyond Toleman and Alonso would have been stuck at Minardi. In the case of the latter, Alonso was according to the the final WDC standings of 2001, the "worst" of the full-time drivers of the 2001 season. Afterall, Alonso didn't score a single WDC point in 2001, much less get anywhere remotely close to a race win.

 

But the sheer fact that he was headhunted by Briatore after 2001 straightaway tells us that performance judged in context i.e the car they drive and performance against a teammate, is a very real measure in F1. And it doesn't suddenly stop just because a driver becomes a WDC. I would suggest that's something for the ultra-literalist "WDC is everything" crowd to consider but as already stated, I suspect that those views are largely being shaped by driver preference. Or all-out bias.



#23 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:07


 

UbiquitousPeas,

I think you misunderstood, what are we talking about in this thread. It is about your personal aims as a driver. If drivers were not success-driven, Alonso would have continued at Minardi, Senna at Toleman, put in great drives there, got recognition, and be happy with that. But it doesn't work like that.

 

As said, Senna wanted desperately to drive for Williams in 1993. So drivers, even if they get the world-wide recognition as top talents, are desperate for results, because they race for results. When you are in a Grand Prix, you battle with other cars to get ahead of them and get a better position/result. This is the whole aim of competition. To get as good result as possible. Of course you are limited to the car, but you still try to get as good result as possible given the machinery. And if you see the machinery isn't good enough, you try to get into a team, which could possibly offer you a better machinery.

 

Neither Senna in 1993 nor Alonso now are racing in F1 with the aim of heroically drag a car up into third position and show the world what great underdogs they are. They want to win. Of course if it is not possible at the moment, they will try hard to get that third position, but ultimately they want to win and wish for the opportunity to arise. And it doesn't matter who their team-mate really is, is it the underperfoming Michael Andretti or Felipe Massa, or is it the World Champions Mika Hakkinen or Kimi Raikkonen. They would care much more about if they actually had the car to fight for wins. IMO this is absolute basics we are discussing here.


Edited by sopa, 01 May 2014 - 12:12.


#24 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:38

Funnily enough, I can't think of anyone who relished the role of playing the underdog as much as Stirling, taking on the works teams in a private outfit. Of course, he could see the advantages in that too (choice of chassis for example), but he was also good enough to know he could take on and beat the best that anyone else had to offer, even if some of the choices he made during that period were in hindsight not the wisest.

 

Interesting insight. One thing however is what are you doing in your career, and another thing is viewing things retrospectively. What have Moss' views been post-career? 

 

Looking at the history, it looks like the success/other factors scale was a bit different back in the 50s-60s. For example there were numerous drivers, who gave up a good seat to have a go in a team built up by themselves (Brabham, McLaren, Gurney, Surtees). Back then drivers were racing in different series too, be it rally, touring or sportscars. I think the F1 WDC wasn't that big of a priority back in the day as it is now, as drivers had various opportunities of how to approach their career.

 

However, over time this has changed. F1 has become much more specialized, which means you concentrate solely on F1 and solely on driving instead of other activities (team building, mechanic, whatever), and sponsorship budgets have come up too, making the strive for pure success more vital. Which means that winning F1 Drivers Championship has become the ultimate goal for some time already, leaving other things aside as long as you commit yourself to F1 as a driver.



#25 UbiquitousPeas

UbiquitousPeas
  • Member

  • 30 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 01 May 2014 - 13:26

Granted, I went off on a bit of a tangent but what I wrote is all relevant and/or related.

 

Of course results are the ultimate aim. But only one driver can win the WDC each year and more often than not one car emerges as dominant. So that limits most driver's aspirations straightaway. If race wins are nothing more than occasional, the WDC becomes out of the question, so what then? Most drivers on any F1 grid are in that position most seasons.

 

And I don't know if it's said elsewhere but on British F1 coverage it is often repeated (across different broadcasters and different commentators/pundits) that the first aim of F1 is always to beat your teammate. That's it. In that way, it can definitely be seen that driver X is, at the minimum, better than at least one other driver. Of course beyond that the desired career progression is a better team, race wins, WDC(s).

 

Yet, strangely, Alonso's standing increased further because of 2012. Whereas some have become more cynical about Vettel, in terms of the car or driver debate, after WDCs numbers three and four. Of course Alonso would desperately liked to have secure that WDC but his standing hasn't been harmed. As I've already stated, quite the opposite, in fact.



#26 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 23,407 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 01 May 2014 - 15:02

Focussing on winning WDCs lets you beat top-class team-mates along the way. The day you lose track of the ultimate goal (winning WDC) and start focussing on "moral victories", you'll also start losing to your team mate. Life is funny like that. 

The two generally fit hand in glove.



#27 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 15:02

Granted, I went off on a bit of a tangent but what I wrote is all relevant and/or related.

 

Of course results are the ultimate aim. But only one driver can win the WDC each year and more often than not one car emerges as dominant. So that limits most driver's aspirations straightaway. If race wins are nothing more than occasional, the WDC becomes out of the question, so what then? Most drivers on any F1 grid are in that position most seasons.

 

And I don't know if it's said elsewhere but on British F1 coverage it is often repeated (across different broadcasters and different commentators/pundits) that the first aim of F1 is always to beat your teammate. That's it. In that way, it can definitely be seen that driver X is, at the minimum, better than at least one other driver. Of course beyond that the desired career progression is a better team, race wins, WDC(s).

 

Yet, strangely, Alonso's standing increased further because of 2012. Whereas some have become more cynical about Vettel, in terms of the car or driver debate, after WDCs numbers three and four. Of course Alonso would desperately liked to have secure that WDC but his standing hasn't been harmed. As I've already stated, quite the opposite, in fact.

 

When you are talking about Alonso, it is worth noting that Alonso didn't have a particularly strong team-mate in Massa, who was widely considered as underperforming. While Alonso had his best season in 2012, Massa was nowhere most of the time.

 

After Senna's death Schumacher was widely regarded as the best driver at the time, despite him having Lehto, Verstappen and the underperforming Herbert as team-mates.

 

Yet Button beat the WDC and very highly rated Hamilton in 2011, and even if it enhanced his reputation, did it make him the best driver? Not really, I think Vettel and Alonso were both rated a notch higher after 2011.

 

IMO it shows driver rating ultimately is not based on which team-mates they beat. It is about how they generally perform compared to the whole field - team-mate and the rest of the drivers.



#28 UbiquitousPeas

UbiquitousPeas
  • Member

  • 30 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 01 May 2014 - 15:26

On Alonso - fair point re.Massa. But let's not forget that he was a couple of corners away from being WDC and once upon a time was quick over one lap. And Alonso didn't just beat him 2010-2013, he trounced him.

 

On Schumacher - weak teammates is one of the three accusations usually used against him, the other two being team orders to his benefit and some of his unsporting actions.

 

On Button - as things stand, beating Hamilton in 2011, will go down as his second biggest achievement after his 09 WDC.

 

"It is about how they generally perform compared to the whole field..."

 

I can't accept that as a blanket statement. With a significant car advantage (Red Bull in recent years, Mercedes as of now) it isn't much of achievement to be beating Caterhams, Marussias and even midfield cars, such as Sauber. Are you suggesting such things helps Vettel's legacy and is currently helping Hamilton's legacy?

 

Or put another way, if Red Bull had maintained their advantage and Vettel went on to win 10xWDCs on the trot, would that really say much more about him as a driver? Ditto, if Mercedes carry on at this level for the next ten years and Hamilton establishes supremacy over Rosberg for all of that time and wins 10xWDCs, would that really say that much more about Hamilton?

 

As Eddie Irvine said of Sebastian Vettel - and as can be applied to Hamilton in the above hypothetical scenario - :

 

"Vettel just staying at Red Bull winning trophies is boring. I don't see what he is trying to prove."

 

I cannot accept taking mere stats in such a superficial way. In fact, as an F1 fan I find it mildly depressing.



#29 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 15:39

Never understood how team-mate competition is considered a good benchmark for performance comparison when the team-mates share telemetry data, testing duties, simulator time, feedback to engineers, risk management on weather conditions (teams hedging with one dry and one wet setup), early mentoring (rookie being shown the way initially, only to beat the master later), and overlapping engineers and management. 

 

They're more like team-mates these days since a majority of the performance comes from work done off-track, when they aren't competing. 

 

Yes, we have nothing better, but it's just a terrible way to compare performances as though they are perfect competitors. For example, If a driver is particularly good at setup, his entire strength and competitive edge can disappear because of team data-sharing policy between drivers. 



#30 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 7,265 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 16:20

Granted, I went off on a bit of a tangent but what I wrote is all relevant and/or related.

 

Of course results are the ultimate aim. But only one driver can win the WDC each year and more often than not one car emerges as dominant. So that limits most driver's aspirations straightaway. If race wins are nothing more than occasional, the WDC becomes out of the question, so what then? Most drivers on any F1 grid are in that position most seasons.

 

These paragraphs tend to dismiss the fact that racing is about a car + driver combination.  If the "car emerges as dominant" then that means the team is dramatically successful and should be placed on a pedestal for what they have managed to do.   The driver of that car, extracting all he can from it, is doing a bang up job and should stand on the pedestal next to the car.

 

it has become popular to look at the "fastest" or "best" car with disdain and discount the drivers of those cars and the results.  But thereby one dismisses the work of art that is the car, the driver getting all one can from it and what is a brilliant combination achieving the goal of racing.

 

 

And I don't know if it's said elsewhere but on British F1 coverage it is often repeated (across different broadcasters and different commentators/pundits) that the first aim of F1 is always to beat your teammate. That's it. In that way, it can definitely be seen that driver X is, at the minimum, better than at least one other driver. Of course beyond that the desired career progression is a better team, race wins, WDC(s).

 

Commentators are there to engender excitement and say anything that might do it.  You certainly have to beat your teammate to win the WDC and if you are out of contention, it might put a feather in your cap that at least you beat your teammate - but when you think about it logically it doesn't always play out from one season to the next (i.e., Who is better - Jenson over Lewis in 2011 or Lewis over Jenson in 2012?)

 

Yet, strangely, Alonso's standing increased further because of 2012. Whereas some have become more cynical about Vettel, in terms of the car or driver debate, after WDCs numbers three and four. Of course Alonso would desperately liked to have secure that WDC but his standing hasn't been harmed. As I've already stated, quite the opposite, in fact.

 

The British media view is not representative of the world view. 


Edited by bourbon, 01 May 2014 - 16:22.


#31 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 17,877 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 16:24

The British media view is not representative of the world view. 

What makes you think that's just the British media view?



#32 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 9,302 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 16:43

The notion of beating your teammate is not just something spun off by the media. It is a highly value rating system used by team principals to rate drivers. You hear this constantly when they are interviewed and asked to give their opinion on certain driver..

They would always say.. he did well against such and such or he had trouble with.. x, y and z.. etc. They use this to negotiate salary and terms even when they have not never worked with a particular driver.  Beating your teammate is what essentially, as a driver, would keep you employed in Formula 1 and in the interest of Team principals.


Edited by discover23, 01 May 2014 - 16:45.


#33 UbiquitousPeas

UbiquitousPeas
  • Member

  • 30 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 01 May 2014 - 17:29

These paragraphs tend to dismiss the fact that racing is about a car + driver combination.  If the "car emerges as dominant" then that means the team is dramatically successful and should be placed on a pedestal for what they have managed to do.   The driver of that car, extracting all he can from it, is doing a bang up job and should stand on the pedestal next to the car.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What on earth does all of that have to do with the paragraph of mine you've quoted? Only one driver wins the WDC. If there is a dominant car then that year's WDC should see only a two-way battle. Most drivers will spend a lot of their career in a non-dominant car, so they have to try to impress in other ways. The most obvious starting point is therefore beating the teammate.



it has become popular to look at the "fastest" or "best" car with disdain and discount the drivers of those cars and the results. But thereby one dismisses the work of art that is the car, the driver getting all one can from it and what is a brilliant combination achieving the goal of racing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What happens when a driver who has had a dominant car, loses that advantage? How do you judge him then? Hmm.



Commentators are there to engender excitement and say anything that might do it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, say what!? It is a widely known point that if a driver keeps being beaten by his teammate year in, year oout, an F1 career will not last. That is nothing to do with "engendering excitement." And fyi, in the UK these comments are often said by ex-F1 drivers. So you think Coulthard, Hill, Brundle et al make that well known point just to "engender excitement?" Please, be serious.




You certainly have to beat your teammate to win the WDC and if you are out of contention, it might put a feather in your cap that at least you beat your teammate - but when you think about it logically it doesn't always play out from one season to the next (i.e., Who is better - Jenson over Lewis in 2011 or Lewis over Jenson in 2012?)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hamilton beat Button two seasons out of three. That's it. No more, no less. And ultimately, Mercedes snapped him up as soon as they could. I think that's all that needs to be said?


The British media view is not representative of the world view.

Er, who said I am talking of the "British media view?" How would you know who's "view" I am referencing?

I'm afraid all you've done (along with the avatar and sig) is confirm my suspicion that this thread is pretty much about Vettel by Vettel fans, prematurely getting defensive on the basis that Ricciardo has been widely acknowledged to have outperformed him in 2014, so far. If of course that isn't some conspiratorial British media "world view" of course! :rolleyes:



#34 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:18

33 posts and no mention of Jarno Trulli so far... which goes to show that even if you beat the guy regarded as the best of his gen (Alonso) you are still "forgotten".



#35 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:19

33 posts and no mention of Jarno Trulli so far... which goes to show that even if you beat the guy regarded as the best of his gen (Alonso) you are still "forgotten".

Erm, Alonso beat Trulli every year they were teammates.



#36 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:23

Erm, Alonso beat Trulli every year they were teammates.

 

When he was fired by Renault in 2004 (after 15 races), he was 1 point ahead (46 vs 45), having outqualified Alonso 8 to 7, having 2 poles vs 1, and having 1 victory to zero of Alonso.


Edited by Alexandros, 01 May 2014 - 18:24.


#37 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 9,302 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:38

When he was fired by Renault in 2004 (after 15 races), he was 1 point ahead (46 vs 45), having outqualified Alonso 8 to 7, having 2 poles vs 1, and having 1 victory to zero of Alonso.

you are going to continue with this futile argument ?  What point are you trying to get across ? I don't get it.

Trulli is remembered for two things.. His raw pace for a single lap in qualifying and the Trulli train. not because in 2004 he scored one more point than Alonso before he was replaced.


Edited by discover23, 01 May 2014 - 18:39.


#38 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:51

you are going to continue with this futile argument ?  What point are you trying to get across ? I don't get it.

Trulli is remembered for two things.. His raw pace for a single lap in qualifying and the Trulli train. not because in 2004 he scored one more point than Alonso before he was replaced.

 

Trulli was beating Alonso significantly up until Silverstone (46-33) where he crashed due to suspension failure (IIRC), and Renault gave him a test chassis that was inferior spec (used by Frank Montagny in testing).

 

Trulli didn't score a single point afterwards complaining of the new chassis problems. Briatore played the "fed up" guy (similar to how he acted when Piquet spun) and fired him a couple of GPs later for underperforming  :lol:

 

As for the point I'm trying to get across, I already stated it. The lack of mention of Trulli is the proof that people remember achievement, wins, championships, etc rather than "who beat X".


Edited by Alexandros, 01 May 2014 - 18:56.


#39 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 9,302 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:59

As for the point I'm trying to get across, I already stated it. The lack of mention of Trulli is the proof that people remember achievement, wins, championships, etc rather than "who beat X".

That is not the reason, the reason is because Trulli was average.. otherwise he would have landed a top seat - After Toyota he went no where.. Alonso after two bad years with Renault in 08-09 went to Ferrari and was in high demand by the other top teams, except Mclaren. 



Advertisement

#40 Alexandros

Alexandros
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:06

That is not the reason, the reason is because Trulli was average.. otherwise he would have landed a top seat - After Toyota he went no where.. Alonso after two bad years with Renault in 08-09 went to Ferrari and was in high demand by the other top teams, except Mclaren. 

 

You should learn that Ferrari proposed to sign Trulli but Trulli had already signed with Toyota.



#41 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 9,302 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:14

You should learn that Ferrari proposed to sign Trulli but Trulli had already signed with Toyota.

as a second driver perhaps.. They had their eyes on Alonso and Kimi as a replacement for Shumi..

 

Ross Brawn : "\"There were only ever two drivers considered to replace Michael - Kimi and Alonso. Everything just fell in place very quickly with Kimi,\" added Brawn.



#42 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:15

That is not the reason, the reason is because Trulli was average.. otherwise he would have landed a top seat - After Toyota he went no where.. Alonso after two bad years with Renault in 08-09 went to Ferrari and was in high demand by the other top teams, except Mclaren. 

 

But herein actually lies the proof. By your saying, beating a top-class team-mate is a relative achievement and always subject to argument - "but this doesn't matter, circumstances were different, etc". But winning championships is a very objective achievement.

 

Had Renault been a top car that year and Trulli fought for the title, he would be remembered better. But no-one cares if he was battling Alonso for 4ths, 5ths or 6ths. Just like many years from now on people won't care if Alonso and Raikkonen were battling for 5ths, 6ths and 7ths.

 

As for Sebastian Vettel and whether he gets the recognition based on the amount of WDCs. From what I have seen, he has recently been already included in the top 10 lists of all-time greats. Had he been driving for Mercedes GP during 2010-13 and collected midfield results, he would hardly feature anywhere near all-time lists.

 

I fully agree with the proposed statements here that car performance matters a lot and is not the ultimate guide for driver ratings. But it will influence heavily perceptions of any driver based on which kind of results he has. It is said Piquet isn't rated as a 3x WDC. But had he won 0 WDCs, he would be rated even less. And so on.


Edited by sopa, 01 May 2014 - 19:19.


#43 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 9,302 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:22



But herein actually lies the proof. By your saying, beating a top-class team-mate is a relative achievement and always subject to argument - "but this doesn't matter, circumstances were different, etc". But winning championships is a very objective achievement.

 

Had Renault been a top car that year and Trulli fought for the title, he would be remembered better. But no-one cares if he was battling Alonso for 4ths, 5ths or 6ths. Just like many years from now on people won't care if Alonso and Raikkonen were battling for 5ths, 6ths and 7ths.

Why is that? 1 vs 0 or 3 vs 7 WDCs are just numbers, just like points - I don't see the proof. They do not represent how good a driver is relative to his competition. We know F1 is more car than driver, why just throw this basic principle out of the window just for the sake of saying my favorite driver is great, look how many WDCs he has.

After the 2004 season was over the general perception by the pundits is that Alonso was better than Trulli, not the other way around.. so saying that Trulli beat Alonso is clutching at straws because not one really saw it that way.


Edited by discover23, 01 May 2014 - 19:22.


#44 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:30

Why is that? 1 vs 0 or 3 vs 7 WDCs are just numbers, just like points - I don't see the proof. They do not represent how good a driver is relative to his competition. We know F1 is more car than driver, why just throw this basic principle out of the window just for the sake of saying my favorite driver is great, look how many WDCs he has.

After the 2004 season was over the general perception by the pundits is that Alonso was better than Trulli, not the other way around.. so saying that Trulli beat Alonso is clutching at straws because not one really saw it that way.

 

Sorry, the numbers do not exactly tell how good a driver is relative to competition, but they will influence the impressions.

 

Imagine 2004 season scenario. Renault was the best car instead of Ferrari. And both Trulli and Alonso were going to have the season they had - Trulli full of confidence and Alonso a bit of hit-and-miss. Trulli would have been leading half-way through the season. Okay, maybe based on real-life scenario he would have choked in the end, lost, or whatever happened. But he would have been noticed much-much more, because he was at the front of the field.

 

Webber is remembered for 2010 and fighting for the title. Button is remembered for 2009, Villeneuve for 1997. And so on. They are remembered based on their best, i.e, most successful season.

 

If you have less results, you will be remembered less. Regardless of who you are. If Alonso had been sitting in that Red Bull for four seasons and let's imagine he won all titles, he would be on 6 WDCs. And he would be remembered even more and would have a bigger legacy than he currently has. Currently he is "just one of the top drivers" on the grid together with Vettel and Hamilton.

 

Is there anything you disagree with?



#45 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,722 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:34

You want/need both really. Wins (races and WDC'S) and beating highly rated drivers in comparable machinery.

 

If I had to choose which is more important I would say out-performing the top drivers in equal machinery because I believe people do have decent memories.

For example, if you beat a bunch of the highest rated drivers as teammates with equal treatment but won no titles or even races, I think people would remember how good you are/were and revere you. On the other hand, I think if you won a bunch of WDC's whilst having a teammate who is considered very poor and then were then out-performed by your other teammates every time you were paired with a decent one, people would also remember that and would not think much of you. People wouldn't care about your wins/WDC's and would put it all down to the car.


Edited by bub, 01 May 2014 - 19:45.


#46 xmoonrakerx

xmoonrakerx
  • Member

  • 765 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:36

Why don't rename the thread to

Who do you like...Vettel or Alonso?

Edited by xmoonrakerx, 01 May 2014 - 19:37.


#47 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 9,302 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:36

No, but I think we're are diverting from the topic or at least the point that I was disagreeing with.

Yes, Alonso does not have 6 titles, he only has half of those of Vettel and has not won a WDC in 7 years, yet he is still rated higher than Vettel.. That right there gives you all of the information that you need to realize that it is not just racking up the numbers.



#48 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:40

When he was fired by Renault in 2004 (after 15 races), he was 1 point ahead (46 vs 45), having outqualified Alonso 8 to 7, having 2 poles vs 1, and having 1 victory to zero of Alonso.

Yeah but Alonso beat him overall in 2004. He pulled the score back in the last two races when Trulli moved teams.

 

Plus you missed out some key stats

 

In 2 car finishes in 2004 they were 4-4 whilst teammates. Alonso did very well in the last two races of 2004 as well. It was if anything an incomplete season. Plus in 2003, Alonso beat Trulli 55-33 over the entire season.

 

Trulli hardly "beat" Alonso when they were teammates.



#49 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 01 May 2014 - 20:08

Yeah but Alonso beat him overall in 2004. He pulled the score back in the last two races when Trulli moved teams.

 

Plus you missed out some key stats

 

In 2 car finishes in 2004 they were 4-4 whilst teammates. Alonso did very well in the last two races of 2004 as well. It was if anything an incomplete season. Plus in 2003, Alonso beat Trulli 55-33 over the entire season.

 

Trulli hardly "beat" Alonso when they were teammates.

 

It is a bit clutching at straws. I think the reality is that people do not care about the results of team-mate battles that much (unless they are die-hard fans), especially if they take place somewhere else than the front of the field. Alonso-Hamilton from 2007 will be remembered, because this was the fight for the title, the big prize.

 

And in team-mate battles there is always an argument that someone was unluckier (Hamilton-Button 2012), someone was "too young", someone was over the hill, etc. If winning titles is attributed to the car, then neating the team-mate is often not as objective criteria either, because as seen - a lot of arguments are used to "prove" something. Massa beat Raikkonen over 3 years, but currently and over their whole careers Raikkonen is rated as the better driver. Etc.



#50 bourbon

bourbon
  • Member

  • 7,265 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 May 2014 - 20:21

I suspect that the majority of those posters in this thread  taking the ultra literal "WDC is the only thing which matters" line, are self-styled Sebastian Vettel fans. I further suspect that those views are shaped largely by support/loyalty/misguided subjectivity when it comes to Herr Vettel. Furthermore, if I'm correct with my suspicions, the timing of this thread is hardly surprising given that Ricciardo has so far been widely regarded to have outperformed Vettel as a teammate.

 

Well that is a bit disingenuous considering the poster before you accused non-Vettel fans of championing the opposing point of view.  :D

 

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can be a fan of F1 and deliberately and selectively ignore the simple fact that F1 is a team sport. All WDCs are at the mercy of their machinery both in terms of its performance and its reliability. Straightaway that gives context for each and every WDC's career and achievement(s). Yet that is only one example of context in an F1 career. The ability levels of teammates is, of course, another.

 

 

Well that is the point of this thread; to discuss whether teammate battles are as important as winning a WDC cup. 

 

Given that F1 is a team sport, the PP/race wins/WDC stats of a driver merely tells us how successful they were. It does not tell us about their entire careers. Afterall, why is 3xWDC Ayrton Senna often said to the greatest F1 driver of all time, when there is a 7xWDC, a 5xWDC and two 4xWDCs? Whilst "greatest driver of all time" is an impossible debate to prove, the sheer fact that none of these debates (or articles in print) rank the drivers neatly along the lines of numbers of WDCs won, tells us that there is more to F1 than just amounts of WDC titles.

 

 

Most agree Ayrton was amazing - but many do not agree that he was the greatest of all time.  It is just that there is little point in arguing it because his body of work was tremendous and beyond that, it was incomplete and so one can only speculate on the further greatness he would have achieved (we know he would have, but how much?). 

 

Or you can compare it other ways. Why isn't a 1xWDC such as Hill, rated as highly as another 1xWDC Mansell?

 

Depends who you ask.

 

Why has F1 history forgotten, to a certain extent, a 3xWDC such as Piquet?

 

Not in Brazil, China, Japan or Abu Dhabi.  The British Media and perspective is not matched by global sentiment.

 

Why does a 4xWDC such as Vettel struggle to get the widespread respect of a 2xWDC such as Alonso and to a lesser extent, a 1xWDC in Hamilton? I suggest it all comes back to context, such as F1 being a team sport, machinery, teammates and sometimes just plain old luck.

 

They alternatively say they have all the respect in the world for him and then change their mind in the midst of bitter, jealous rants.

 

Coming back to my own thoughts, the depth behind F1 results (i.e given that it is a team sport) is one of the most appealing aspects of F1. There is so, so, so much more to F1 than just results and stats. Of course stats and success are a huge measure of any driver's career but the beauty of F1 is that stats and success never tell the whole story. I simply do not understand how anyone can have such a shallow approach of "WDCs are the only measure" and enjoy watching F1. I wonder if such people even begin to understand what they're watching.

 

 

Every sport is much more than just stats and success.  But what is memorable, what is historical, what is used as a comparison through time, are the major successes.  Vettel won 4 WDCs and "JOINED" an elite and very, very small group of drivers that had done it.  Now when and if another driver does that, they will make history and the commentators will go on and on about they are joining the exclusive group of 4xWDCs which includes a mere 4 individuals.  If this happens tomorrow or in 50 years, it will be the same. 

 

And that is why WDCs are the most important.  They are the standard by which all are judged through time - the only standard. 

 

That does not mean that the other legends that left a mark in the sport without titles (Sterling, Gilles) won't be remembered - they are, and in specials their stories are told.  And even the "worst" drivers make it into specials on that topic.  But when it comes to achievements in the sport over time, the only measure is the number of WDCs won.

 

Before anyone sighs after reading that - think about it - very carefully.  It isn't just "winning a WDC" - it means preparing a fantastic car on the majority of weekends by the crew, it means the constructor arranging deals behind the scenes to keep them viable in the sport - it means the driver training like mad and staying consistently mistake free as possible (sometimes making personal sacrifices on track - like certain records, etc - to attain the bigger goal) - and it means all of the details, hard work and tremendous effort that goes into becoming a champion.  It also means the champion beat his teammate (oh but the teammate wasn't a WDC - so what - that does not mean that the Champion's work was easier or the team, crew, administration and staff's work was less difficult).

 

So don't be so quick to dismiss the WDC.  It has more significance behind it than any other measure.

 

Afterall, if stats and success were the the only measure, Senna would never have gone beyond Toleman and Alonso would have been stuck at Minardi. In the case of the latter, Alonso was according to the the final WDC standings of 2001, the "worst" of the full-time drivers of the 2001 season. Afterall, Alonso didn't score a single WDC point in 2001, much less get anywhere remotely close to a race win.

 

But the sheer fact that he was headhunted by Briatore after 2001 straightaway tells us that performance judged in context i.e the car they drive and performance against a teammate, is a very real measure in F1. And it doesn't suddenly stop just because a driver becomes a WDC. I would suggest that's something for the ultra-literalist "WDC is everything" crowd to consider but as already stated, I suspect that those views are largely being shaped by driver preference. Or all-out bias.

 

 

You are making declarations that no one has made.  Who says WDCs are the ONLY measure?  Nobody is saying that.  They are merely the most important measure and compared to teammate battles - 1000000's of times more because you cannot choose your teammate, so it is wholly unfair to hold that fact against a driver.  ALL drivers have the opportunity to be great (as you pointed out) - and if they are, they will get a top drive and likely challenge for the WDC.  It is the fairest measure and that is why it is the standard measure.

 

In conclusion, beating a top class teammate is great, but winning a WDC is the objective.   This is not bias.  Sure I am a Vettel fan, but I am a Kimi fan and a Daniil fan too.  Seb has 4, Kimi has 1 and Daniil has none.  Yet I believe they are all similarly super talented - just differing in experience.


Edited by bourbon, 01 May 2014 - 20:37.