124 replies to this topic

[TecnoRacing]

Didn't see anything about this on the forums - apologies if I missed it. Apparently this happened on Friday

 

This is of course Jimmy's Zandvoort winner.

Not a pretty site....

 

 

[Lee Nicolle]

Oops. It looks like the r/f hub has failed letting the wheel go. 

[Wirra]

 Might be a guest driver. Looks too big to be the owner - Chris MacAllister

 

Lotus 49 R2

Jim Clark - Warwick Farm 1968


Chris MacAllister - Laguna Seca 2011

[Barry Boor]

It was Chris MacAllister. It was just one of numerous such incidents occurring to 3 liter F.1 cars.

The feeling is, certainly at Monaco, many of their drivers are really handling cars that are too powerful for their talent.

[mfd]

Always feel slightly bemused many historic competitors leave all the various scrutineering stickers in place, as if to say, look I was there.

[Patrick Morgan]

Always feel slightly bemused many historic competitors leave all the various scrutineering stickers in place, as if to say, look I was there.

 

Each to their own. However you view it it's a part of the cars history albeit recent and some people like to see their mark on the car which is fair enough. Personally I feel it looks messy and confuses the officials who have a hard enough job as it is.

 

I've no idea of the circumstances regarding this prang or the people involved but if you run these cars - and a lot of people like to see them run - then you have to accept that this might happen be you the owner, driver or spectator.

[mfd]

Sorry Patrick, you misunderstood as I wasn't specific enough - I was commenting on the stickers that are left on the helmet. I've no interest in what they do to a car

[Patrick Morgan]

Sorry Patrick, you misunderstood as I wasn't specific enough - I was commenting on the stickers that are left on the helmet. I've no interest in what they do to a car

 

No worries, still vaguely relevant in that for the scrutineers it's still got to be a bit of a pain. But I guess it's an individual choice and there's no real harm in it. I may be wrong but it looks like there are a few sticker on the flank of the car that were not there in the 1960's... maybe that's just Monaco though.  

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

A real pity but...  You pays your money and you takes your chance.

 

One thing from the image of the 49 being craned away that struck me is that this act might be very dangerous and completely inappropriate.  The cars of that era were not designed to be handled so and unless specific mods have been made to accommodate the unusual loading, it might just bloody-well fall away.  I realize that it's unlikely but...

[Doug Nye]

Didn't see anything about this on the forums - apologies if I missed it. Apparently this happened on Friday

 

This is of course Jimmy's Zandvoort winner.

Not a pretty site....

 

 

 

 

Unimpressed of Farnham

[kayemod]

Does anyone know if the cause was driver error or mechanical failure?

[BRG]

 

Unimpressed of Farnham

Would that be more or less unimpressed than when Sato stuffed a 49 at Monaco?

[kayemod]

We'll all have to hope that unlike some examples we've seen, the replacement nose is the original 49 shape.

[TecnoRacing]

One thing from the image of the 49 being craned away that struck me is that this act might be very dangerous and completely inappropriate.  The cars of that era were not designed to be handled so and unless specific mods have been made to accommodate the unusual loading, it might just bloody-well fall away.  I realize that it's unlikely but...

 

I was thinking the same thing. Granted, the extra rollbar is modern piece and presumably considerably more robust, but it is still just a 'bolt-on' part.

 

 

Video of the accident - looks the like wheel was sheared off in the impact, and not the cause:

http://www.youtube.c...zJfSC6aGgnSqmRA

 

There was also a Ferrari 312B2 badly damaged over the weekend (in a very stupid looking wheel-to-wheel accident)

[Andrew Fellowes]

 

There was also a Ferrari 312B2 badly damaged over the weekend (in a very stupid looking wheel-to-wheel accident)

[john ruston]

It's another case of a gentleman driver /owner wanting to chug round Monaco with his prize car and having very little idea what is happening around him.

Clash of American type Historic driving and European racing.

Unfortunate.

[john winfield]

http://edgarmotorspo...an-vm-edgar.pdf

 

The 1972 Nurburgring winner?  (not 1971). 

 

The squeezing move at Monaco 2014 looked rather 'modern', and sad to see a 312 end up in the barrier.

[Peter Morley]

Perhaps he should the intro from "if you can drive a big-block Corvette you can drive anything - but a Ferrari F1"...

 

According to the results he was excluded from the meeting, what does that mean given that the car was no longer capable of taking part?

[mfd]

It wasn't as if the driver didn't know there was a bright yellow March thereabouts...surely?

[john ruston]

Doubtful!

Few of the back markers had no idea what they were doing and some of these came from across the pond.

Historic racing there is a cozy day out strolling round the circuit as an enjoyable pastime.

European historic racing is racing.

Beginning to think the US way may be a better route as the European racing has got very serious and the drivers would be ,on many levels,better off in modern stuff.

Many broken cars due to stupidity,driving beyond their ability and just not enough experience to be let out at Monaco due to lack of experience of racing.

John Ure's pass of Gavin Pickering should be an example of two drivers that did know what to do.

[David M. Kane]

Sorry but Chris is a very decent driver, drop the attack on American drivers unless you witness the incident LIVE. Second hand observations don't for me.

 

Or am I just being another Ugly American again?

 

Looks like a guest driver to me anyway...

[Cirrus]

I have to say I agree with David. I'm not convinced that the wheel broke away as a result of the accident. Unfortunately, from looking at the photographs, the 49 seems to have been just about the only car at Monaco not fitted with an onboard camera - that footage might have been very revealing.

 

The jury's still out on that one as far as I'm concerned. The accident between Richard Smeeton and John Goodman however was rather more clear cut. From what I've heard, the perpetrator was pretty unrepentant afterwards at the awards dinner.

Edited by Cirrus, 12 May 2014 - 19:30.

[john ruston]

Saw the incident at the circuit and talked to other drivers.

The Ferrari changed line whilst being lapped.

Different type of Historic Racing in States.

The other driver in race was spending his money.

Nuffi said as these discussions go nowhere and just pointing out different types of attitude to historic racing.

[David M. Kane]

Saw the incident at the circuit and talked to other drivers.

The Ferrari changed line whilst being lapped.

Different type of Historic Racing in States.

The other driver in race was spending his money.

Nuffi said as these discussions go nowhere and just pointing out different types of attitude to historic racing.

[David M. Kane]

The Ferrari driver won't be invited back I suspect. AND I do agree that there is a clash between American and European driving styles.

 

I agree with John Ruston 100%, I changed my mind...

[john ruston]

The official line was that the Ferrari driver was banned from the meeting for changing line whilst being lapped.

Pity!

[Lee Nicolle]

I was thinking the same thing. Granted, the extra rollbar is modern piece and presumably considerably more robust, but it is still just a 'bolt-on' part.

 

 

Video of the accident - looks the like wheel was sheared off in the impact, and not the cause:

http://www.youtube.c...zJfSC6aGgnSqmRA

 

There was also a Ferrari 312B2 badly damaged over the weekend (in a very stupid looking wheel-to-wheel accident)

The clip does not show the start but either if just broke off or it hit the wall just before the camera. My feeling is it just broke, and then crashed the l/f. 

Seemingly not too serious, some serious crack testing or replacement is in order.

While lifting on the roll bar is far from ideal if it had fallen off it would be no use in a rollover! Full weight of car but quite gently lifted with a webbing sling.

[mfd]

It's difficult but if you look carefully you can see he doesn't turn into the corner at all & no apparent locking of brakes

[slucas]

The right side wheel fell off before the wall was hit, (or at least it was being of no more service to the pilot)

There is only tyre mark on the pavement on the left side so no brakes on the right.

This is a F1 Lotus. These things happen.

[slucas]

Oh... I forgot to note that the left side hit the wall yet the right side wheel was missing. Hmmm, this is a Lotus

[elansprint72]

The right side hub is there, on the stub axle, the wheel bearing is intact, the thread for the wheel nut is there- what is not there is the locking nut and... the wheel!

 

Now, a loose wheel nut is surely not just the preserve of an F1 Lotus

[Alan Cox]

I was there and not wishing to enter deeper into this discussion, the fact is that there were too many drivers accepted for this meeting who were out of their depth in events that are as competitive as they are at the Monaco Historic GP. Some of them seemed surprised at how quickly they were being lapped and didn't seem confident of the line they should adopt when being passed. It was sad to see the damage wrought to a number of cars.

[mfd]

I heard there are some owners who rather than doing a season are only interested in Monaco & Goodwood. Plus cars are now being bought with this intention in mind. Truth is there's a world of difference between those two as circuits compared with the new 'ring, Silverstone etc. Monaco caught out plenty of aces when the cars ran originally.

[Gary C]

F.F.S.  (un-impresed of Nairobi, soon to be back to normal in Shepperton).

[Wouter Melissen]

In this case, the driver was certainly not to blame. As mentioned before Chris MacAllister is a more than accomplished driver. Two years ago he won Plateau 6 outright at the Le Mans Classic with one of the oldest cars in the group. The wheel came off before he hit anything, so he was simply a passenger.

[Michael Oliver]

Sad about R2. I spoke to Clive Chapman after the meeting and he said that the damage may not be as bad as they first thought (the left front wheel came back into the side-skin of the tub) and they hope to be able to repair it rather than having to replace it.

 

In more general terms, I have felt that the issue of driving standards at Monaco has been a problem for many years. It is up to the organisers to insist that drivers being entered have an appropriate amount of experience commensurate with racing at such a demanding and unforgiving venue and also to make it very clear that if they do not qualify within a 20% cutoff, they will not be starting, no matter how much they paid in entry fees or for their drive.

 

The qualifying results show a number of drivers as 'Not Qualified' because they were more than 20% slower than the pole-sitter and, without exception I believe, all of the non-qualifiers were allowed to start. What is the point of having a cut-off if you are not going to enforce it?!

 

If drivers are aggrieved at paying out a lot of money and not qualifying, my answer is don't try and enter an event which is way beyond your capabilities: go and do some lower-level historic racing elsewhere in Europe and get up to speed. If they really insist on driving at Monaco, let them do some parade laps in the lunch break, when they are not going to be in a position to take faster drivers off.

 

Some of the drivers I have never even heard of or seen racing anywhere in Europe: for example one Ray Langston (who I believe is an American hedge fund manager), who hired Mike Wrigley's March 711 for the pre-72 Formula 1 race. The standard of his driving was just embarrassing to behold and he constantly got in the way of drivers lapping him, including badly baulking Duncan Dayton when he was trying to close in on Katsu Kubota for the lead of the race in the closing laps. And I have to say that American drivers are often the main culprits: Alan Patterson in his Allard J2 was 40-odd seconds a lap off the pace in the sports car race in a lap of just over two minutes. His story is great (he's owned and raced the car from new in 1952) but he's just too slow, period. Similarly, a few years ago Lee Brahin was tipped on his head at Casino in his Hesketh because he just wasn't using his mirrors and was constantly getting in everyone's way. That's not to say there aren't a number of very competent US pilots - Duncan Dayton being the obvious (and very entertaining/exciting to watch) example but others like John Delane and Charles Nearburg spring to mind.

 

Just to even it up, Brit Richard Smeeton, the driver of the yellow March 721G involved in the crash with John Goodman's Ferrari, was another who must have raised a few eyebrows over the weekend. I am told (although I did not witness it) that he was involved in a 'coming together' with Robs Lamplough in practice which led to Lamplough being unable to drive his BRM P180 in the race. Then apparently he dropped oil on the circuit in another session and in the race had a questionable 'coming together' (two in one race meeting anyone, does that tell you something?!) with Goodman. Another Brit transgressor was Michael Richings in the F3 race. He was just all over the place and did not know where to put himself while being lapped. Out of his depth doesn't even come close to describing it.

 

One of these days, a driver is going to be killed at Monaco because of the poor driving standards of the slower, inexperienced drivers and that would be extremely regrettable. Before that happens, the ACM needs to get tough on slower drivers and stop turning a blind eye because they've paid a large entry fee.

[mfd]

It had to be said (your last paragraph) - thanks

Edited by mfd, 16 May 2014 - 10:35.

[john ruston]

Don't know where the Richard Smeeton stuff came from but the Ferrari incident was not his fault and the Robs Lamplough coming together was two drivers trying to use same piece of road.

Robs went in wide and left a gap on inside and Smeeton filled the gap.

Know nothing about the oil .

[john ruston]

Forgot to mention that your last paragraph is absolutely correct.Someone will get hurt.

The three major historic meetings Monaco,Goodwood and Le Mans Classic all suffer with drivers/owners wanting to do them with little or no experience.

Goodwood try's to weed out the culprits not sure the others do.

[Alan Cox]

Michael Oliver's observations are pretty much spot on in my view, but I wouldn't be so critical of Richard Smeeton, He was the entirely innocent party In the incident when he was squeezed into the wall by John Goodman (see video posted above), and he is a pretty experienced historic pilot. I didn't see the Lamplough incident, so cannot pass an opinion on that.

[alansart]

Don't know where the Richard Smeeton stuff came from but the Ferrari incident was not his fault and the Robs Lamplough coming together was two drivers trying to use same piece of road.

Robs went in wide and left a gap on inside and Smeeton filled the gap.
 

 

I saw the incident on TV and agree with that. It looked like Robs turned in when Smeeton was already alongside.

[rdrcr]

Too little preparation and experience from some leads to the results shown.  I concede that more 'money than sense' is a larger problem here than elsewhere.  That said, the organizers and their stewards are responsible for conducting the meeting.  If they see a 'less than' competitor in the practice sessions, they can and are mandated to take steps to insure the safety of the other competitors.  Moreover, it should be known to all participants that the racing (by and large) over there is real racing...  If one (from here or anywhere) enters and doesn't realize that, then they're the fool and are in way over their head.  It also seems to me, the last place novices should be is in the narrow confines of Monaco.   Refunds for the incompetent may be a partial solution, but scarcely cover the cost of doing the event in the first place. Best to weed them out first by having a requirement of 'x' amount of races in advance of an event like the Monaco Historics.

[rdrcr]

Doug,  Why angry? Sad to be sure, but it is racing and mistakes will happen. Caveat: Not knowing the driver to be anything other then a competent competitor, I stand to be corrected.

[Rudernst]

my 2 bits.....

 

First, as far as I know that driver of that Lotus 49 has done the Monaco Historic GP several times before without crashing, You have to hand him that.

His best time this year was a 2.02 which is very very slow for a 3 litre car, even a such an early one.

You can BEAT that time with a 1,5 litre car, even with a 4 cylinder Lotus 18 or 21.

 

This year, because of the additional day, the schedule was revised. The 3 litre cars ran earlier in relation to other cars, than they used to, on a very green track, greener than it used to be for the drivers. Some people actually spun in front of me on the OUT LAP OUT OF THE PITS, the one that does not count, as you have not crossed the timing-beam...... remarkable, isnt it....

 

I have a theory as to why the accident happened:
You spend an awful lot of time around Monaco in 2nd gear, whereas elsewhere 2nd is only used during the start.

If You give it full whack very suddenly, the Cossie DFV shakes the tail of any car in 2nd gear, thats not so critical on a straight (startline).

But it makes things interesting when exiting a corner.

You need to work up towards the limit at Monaco, not down from it

I think, the man was just caught out in 2nd gear, hence crashing despite lapping slow.

 

The feeling among the better drivers whas that the early 3 litre grid has become more competive, compared to last year, at least in depth near the sharp end.

But, yes, there are and always have been drivers in it, that have not enough experience in relation to the power of the car that they are driving.

In 2012 Artam caught out Sytner and wrecked his car...., so thats nothing new.

 

 

Now, on Lotus 49...

The Lotus 49 has recently aquired a tendency to hit hard objects, other 49s were crashed as well.

What ocurred to me:
When the Lotus 49 was designed and raced the DFV had near 410 BHP in 1967.

Nowadays, it is difficult to build a DFV that makes less than 470 BHP, about 15 % up in fact most existing engines were uprated at sometime during their life.

That was not factored in on the original design....

That does not necessaryly mean that You have to crash the car

It just means that the driver has to be a bit respectfull, at least in the beginning.

 

Rudolf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rudernst, 16 May 2014 - 19:20.

[Rudernst]

I know both drivers, Rob and Richard.

 

My feeling on their coming together is:

Richard was decidedly quicker than Rob, to the tune of 6 seconds per lap

Rob has a tendency to make himself a bit wide on the track

 

they crashed in practice, not in race racing for position

 

Richard was probably a bit impatient,

Rob could have let him by somewhere, as passing is so difficult at Monaco, especially in these superwide cars. 

 

IMHO, that was a racing accident, about 50 % blame each

sadly totally unnecessary and avoidable

 

As to the Goodmann-Ferrari / Smeeton-March accidents

There Richard clearly was a victim

Goodman has no idea what goes on around him

 

Rudolf

[examateur racer]

I want to make two comments:-

 

1) In my experience the cars that are racing now (40+ years on) are probably not the cars that raced originally, excepting the chassis plate.

 

2) I only have experience driving BOSS cars however it's almost impossible for an amateur driver to be fully experienced and in absolute full control driving any past F1 car, the real drivers lived in the cars, even the most moneyed owner/drivers can't get the track time to equal the professional drivers skill. So almost everyone is on a learning curve, some at the bottom some on their way up. Plus there are few safe tracks around (Monaco is not one of them) that can accommodate cars (when they crash)  that were lethal in their day?

[funformula]

Sorry to be OT here

 

@Rudernst

Is your car the ex-Stommelen/Eifelland/Colani car that was later raced by Watson or is it a different chassis painted in the Watson livery?

[Rudernst]

yes, my car is the original Eifelland March, we just kept it in the Hexagon/Watson livery and aero parts, as it had survived in that form, its also probably its quickest incarnation

There is a continuous chain of ownership from Eifelland to me, documented by TNFer Allen Brown.

 

There is also a blatant copy of the Eifelland that has beenbuilt in Germany, trying to steal the identy of my car with a cock and bull story of "finding" the crashed car in a scrapyard, well, the car was never crashed and that story has been made up

 

Rudolf

[funformula]

yes, my car is the original Eifelland March, we just kept it in the Hexagon/Watson livery and aero parts, as it had survived in that form, its also probably its quickest incarnation

There is a continuous chain of ownership from Eifelland to me, documented by TNFer Allen Brown.

 

There is also a blatant copy of the Eifelland that has beenbuilt in Germany, trying to steal the identy of my car with a cock and bull story of "finding" the crashed car in a scrapyard, well, the car was never crashed and that story has been made up

 

Rudolf

 

Thanks Rudolf,

 

thats why I was asking. I ´d seen the "Colani" car in Hockenheim 4 weeks ago and it made me wonder how it could be transferred into a perfect prepared race car for Monaco within a few days.

So do we now have five March 721?

Sorry if being too curious.

[Rudernst]

yes, you could say that there are 4 arch 721s now.

 

The Derichs fake has some mistakes built into its monocoque and as a conequence got a red dot onto its HTP at Zeltweg a few years ago, meaning the car did not conform.

Derichs copied the monocoque of a March 711 that he had in for repairs.

 

Rudolf