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Mercedes - best start of the season ever


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#101 scheivlak

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 21:29

There ‘s another record in sight: so far, Mercedes has lead 368 laps out of 368 (at least at the S/F line!).

The bar is set pretty high for this record by McLaren: they lead 1003 out of 1031 laps in 1988!

 

Other notable scores:

McLaren 89                           745 / 1039

Williams 92                           867 / 1036

Williams 96                           765 / 1014

Ferrari 02                              865 / 1090

Ferrari 04                              785 / 1132

Red Bull 11                           798 / 1133

Red Bull 13                           753 / 1133

 

Pre-1961 scores however are strongly influenced by the inclusion of the Indy 500 in the WDC. Excluding the Indy 500, Alfa Romeo lead 384 out of 391 laps in 1950!

Including Indy it’s 384 out of 529 (the so-called 'International Sweepstakes' race was flagged when the rain came down after lap 138).

 

Other significant pre-1961 scores:

Ferrari  52                             411 / 648 = 411 / 448 without Indy

Ferrari  53                             463 / 736 = 463 / 536 without Indy

Mercedes 55                         421 / 672 = 421 / 472 without Indy


Edited by scheivlak, 29 May 2014 - 21:32.


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#102 RubalSher

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 21:39

The part in bold seems wrong. 

 

If Hamilton leads by 20 points before Abu Dhabi and both cars finish 1-2, Hamilton is champion even if Rosberg wins the race, as Rosberg could only make up 14 points (50-36 = 14, twice the usual gap).   If Rosberg wins the race and Hamilton finishes 3rd, they will be tied in points so it depends. But with Hamilton 2nd, he is champion

 

OTOH (still in this 20 points gap situation prior to Abu Dhabi) a DNF would change the outcome of the championship, unless the remaining driver scores less than 20 points, which is a 5th place: barem for Abu Dhabi will be 50-36-30-24-20-12-8-6-4-2.    A Mercedes finishing lower than 5th at any race this year is very unlikely. 

 

Wont that depend on who won more races this year?



#103 George Costanza

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 02:59

1998 and Mclaren could have been something if FIA wouldn't have changed it's mind about McLaren's braking system

Australia - 1 & 2 - They lapped everyone else

Brazil - 1 & 2 - Schumacher were 1 minute behind 

 

After that they banned their system and Schumacher won next race

 

Indeed. That McLaren was incredibly fast. I think if wasn't for the FIA.... They probably would have beaten everybody by a mile, like the Mercedes is doing now.


Edited by George Costanza, 30 May 2014 - 03:02.


#104 George Costanza

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 03:02

I am surprised no one mentioned Renault's 2006's first half.... Fred scored 84 points up until Canada.... 

 

Sort of like Brawn in 2009. Then again, Fisichella couldn't do anything with it, frankly.


Edited by George Costanza, 30 May 2014 - 03:05.


#105 hollowstar

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 03:12

Wont that depend on who won more races this year?

 

Well, here's what happens if, come Abu Dhabi, Hamilton has 300 points and Rosberg 280.  If Rosberg wins Abu Dhabi and Hamilton comes 2nd:

 

Rosberg: 280 + 50 = 330 points. 

Hamilton: 300 + 36 = 336 points  => Champion 

 

No need to mention happens if Lewis wins the race.

 

As I said, with that gap before the last race, they will be tied if Lewis finishes 3rd (so gets 30 points instead of 36) and Rosberg wins.

 

If Lewis DNFs, he will have to hope that Rosberg finishes lower than 5th, which would have them tied. 

 

But that's all very hypothetical   :D



#106 garagetinkerer

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:05

I didn't include Brawn because they didn't win all 5 races, and Barrichello's results were just 2 5 4 5 2. That's not really in the league of those 4 cars.

You could also say that Barrichello, as good as he was, on his day he could beat the Stig, but not his teammates much in a F1 car :p

 

Out of the car, one of the nicest chaps... just don't get him started on number 2 thing though... :p



#107 garagetinkerer

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:06

I am surprised no one mentioned Renault's 2006's first half.... Fred scored 84 points up until Canada.... 

 

Sort of like Brawn in 2009. Then again, Fisichella couldn't do anything with it, frankly.

Not all his fault though :p He was a proper number two in the team.



#108 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:37

Will Mercedes back down to skimp on the FIA entry fee? That is also points based. 



#109 RubalSher

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:53

Well, here's what happens if, come Abu Dhabi, Hamilton has 300 points and Rosberg 280.  If Rosberg wins Abu Dhabi and Hamilton comes 2nd:

 

Rosberg: 280 + 50 = 330 points. 

Hamilton: 300 + 36 = 336 points  => Champion 

 

No need to mention happens if Lewis wins the race.

 

As I said, with that gap before the last race, they will be tied if Lewis finishes 3rd (so gets 30 points instead of 36) and Rosberg wins.

 

If Lewis DNFs, he will have to hope that Rosberg finishes lower than 5th, which would have them tied. 

 

But that's all very hypothetical   :D

 

Oops I misread that they will be on equal points after the race and that Rosberg wins the title coz he won the last race. My bad but I thought there was a rule in place that gave precedence to the winner of the last race if two drivers ended on equal points. Thankfully, that is not the case.


Edited by RubalSher, 30 May 2014 - 10:54.


#110 Borko

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:19

Update - after 7 rounds - Mercdes fall:

 

Mercedes GP results:

 

Lewis Hamilton - Ret 1 1 1 1 2 Ret

 

Nico Rosberg - 1 2 2 2 2 1 2

 

 

Ferrari in 2004:

 

Michael Scumacher - 1 1 1 1 1 Ret 1

 

Rubens Barrichello - 2 4 2 6 2 3 2

 

 

McLaren 1988:

 

Ayrton Senna - DSQ 1 Ret 2 1 1 2

 

Alain Prost - 1 2 1 1 2 2 1

 

 

Williams 1992:

 

Nigel Mansell - 1 1 1 1 1 2 1

 

Ricardo Patrese - 2 2 2 Ret 2 3 2

 

 

Williams 1996 - out of contention for now

_______________________________

 

 

10-6-4-3-2-1 point system:

 

1. McLaren 1988 = 100 points

 

2. Williams 1992 = 100 points

 

3. Mercedes 2014  = 96 points

 

4. Ferrari 2004 = 94 points

 

 

10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1:

 

1. Williams 1992 = 114 points

 

2. McLaren 1988 = 110 points

 

3. Mercedes 2014 = 108 points

 

4. Ferrari 2004 = 106 points

 

 

25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1:

 

 

1. Williams 1992 = 273 points

 

2. McLaren 1988 = 265 points

 

3. Mercedes 2014 = 258 points

 

4. Ferrari 2004 = 257 points

 

 



#111 Anderis

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:11

FW36 in hands of Felipe Massa was the first car other than Mercedes to lead a race this season, on the lap 46th of 7th race of the season- Canadian GP.

 

What surprises me, that's nowadays, in the era of superior reliability, no-refuelling etc. it was not even the longest streak of laps led from one team in the history of F1.

http://statsf1.com/e...consecutif.aspx



#112 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:25

FW36 in hands of Felipe Massa was the first car other than Mercedes to lead a race this season, on the lap 46th of 7th race of the season- Canadian GP.

 

What surprises me, that's nowadays, in the era of superior reliability, no-refuelling etc. it was not even the longest streak of laps led from one team in the history of F1.

http://statsf1.com/e...consecutif.aspx

 

 

Then you really have no idea how utterly dominant the MP4/4 was. This current Mercedes domination may be dull and boring but 1988 was even worse then that. For the other dominated years mentioned there was the occasional surprise because of the pit stops but '88 went on and on and on and....

 

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 June 2014 - 15:26.


#113 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:30

Update - after 7 rounds - Mercdes fall:

 

Mercedes GP results:

 

Lewis Hamilton - Ret 1 1 1 1 2 Ret

 

Nico Rosberg - 1 2 2 2 2 1 2

 

 

Ferrari in 2004:

 

Michael Scumacher - 1 1 1 1 1 Ret 1

 

Rubens Barrichello - 2 4 2 6 2 3 2

 

 

McLaren 1988:

 

Ayrton Senna - DSQ 1 Ret 2 1 1 2

 

Alain Prost - 1 2 1 1 2 2 1

 

 

Williams 1992:

 

Nigel Mansell - 1 1 1 1 1 2 1

 

Ricardo Patrese - 2 2 2 Ret 2 3 2

 

 

Williams 1996 - out of contention for now

_______________________________

 

 

10-6-4-3-2-1 point system:

 

1. McLaren 1988 = 100 points

 

2. Williams 1992 = 100 points

 

3. Mercedes 2014  = 96 points

 

4. Ferrari 2004 = 94 points

 

 

10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1:

 

1. Williams 1992 = 114 points

 

2. McLaren 1988 = 110 points

 

3. Mercedes 2014 = 108 points

 

4. Ferrari 2004 = 106 points

 

 

25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1:

 

 

1. Williams 1992 = 273 points

 

2. McLaren 1988 = 265 points

 

3. Mercedes 2014 = 258 points

 

4. Ferrari 2004 = 257 points

 

 

I miss Ferrari in 2002 in this stat! Or is that because the F2002 wasn't used in the first two races of the season and only one car being used in the 3rd race of the season?

Maybe it won't figure as well for the best ever start of the season but for the entire season performance, F2002 will provide awesome statistics of which I am not too sure that Mercedes will better them. Certainly now the Merc has taken its first beating and second non points races result.

 

Henri



#114 Jimisgod

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:41

Interesting Merc made it until the 7th race to not win.

Both Ferrari 04 and Williams 92 only got to the 6th.

1988 sure must have dragged on if it took Mclaren until the 12th race to lose.

#115 Borko

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:17

I miss Ferrari in 2002 in this stat! Or is that because the F2002 wasn't used in the first two races of the season and only one car being used in the 3rd race of the season?

Maybe it won't figure as well for the best ever start of the season but for the entire season performance, F2002 will provide awesome statistics of which I am not too sure that Mercedes will better them. Certainly now the Merc has taken its first beating and second non points races result.

 

Henri

There is no Ferrari F2002 because Barrichello's results were awful in the first part of the season - Ret Ret Ret 2 Ret 2 7. They had 73 points after the first 7 races. If I continue to do these standings,  F2002  will eventually show up, because of the 5 consecutive 1-2 finishes, but right now they are not close.



#116 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 18:04

There is no Ferrari F2002 because Barrichello's results were awful in the first part of the season - Ret Ret Ret 2 Ret 2 7. They had 73 points after the first 7 races. If I continue to do these standings,  F2002  will eventually show up, because of the 5 consecutive 1-2 finishes, but right now they are not close.

 

All that is correct. But again, don't forget that of the first 6 starts of the season there was only one F2002 result, all others were with F2001.

But to do the F2002 better justice, I could think about creating a stat in which the other cars are also scored like the F2002 did in 2002

Meaning: a single entry for the first race and that would have to be the result of the driver who became world champion and from there an the next 14 GP's. Such a stat will likely end up with F2002 coming out on top because in 15 races used it lost only a single race

If scored in that manner, the mighty MP4/4 will lose a victory because Senna became world champion with the MP4/4 but didn't score points with it. In the case of Mercedes 2014, if Hamilton becomes champion, then the Rosberg victory needs to be scrapped

 

I must look into such a statistic to see what happens then, the mmore I write about it, the more I feel it could be interesting.

 

 

Henri

 

 

Edit:

 

I have made the stats for what are the best ever and most dominant cars ever in history based on point scores over the entire season, being the 1988 McLaren and the 2002 and 2004 Ferraris.

 

As mentioned: the F2002 had only 15 starts and in its first race only one car used, driven by the man who became world champion.

If I summarize the records for MP4/4 and F2004 and duplicate their season to that of the F2002 that means that for the opening race of the season only the results for `the braso` is valid, a DNQ, thus no points. And race 16 (McLaren double) has to go as well.

For F2004 I must scratch the results of Barrichello (and place) and then the final three races of the season.

For points score I have used the 10-8-4-3-2-1 system, Any car could score a maximum of (15*10)+(14*6) = 234 points.

 

Here are the results of what happens then:

 

                    Mp4/4           F2002          F2004

1st                     13                 14                 13

2nd                     9                  10                  8

3rd                      0                    1                  4

4th                      1                    1                  1     

5th                      0                    0                  0

6th                      1                    0                  1

7th or up             0                    1                  1

Ret                      5                   2                  1

Starts                29                 29                 29

avg point score

per start             6.48             7,14             6.83      

% max score

(pts/234)           80.3            88.5              84.6

 

I know, this is very much calculation to the benefit of the F2002 but ain't it shocking to see that all of a sudden the MP4/4 plays not even second but third fiddle then?

 

For Mercedes it will be very difficult to match or even better the results of the F2002. For starters it can't affort to loose a race anymore in the upcoming 8 races (one defeat, like the F2002 suffered has already happened) and if Hamilton becomes champion then Merc also loses the 10 points of Nico in the opener. And the one 7th place or higher that F2002 scored is also already matched by Lewis yesterday.

 

I leave it up to others to convert the results with using other point scoring systems of the past years.

 

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 June 2014 - 19:02.


#117 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 19:07

Interesting Merc made it until the 7th race to not win.

Both Ferrari 04 and Williams 92 only got to the 6th.

1988 sure must have dragged on if it took Mclaren until the 12th race to lose.

 

 

 

Man did it drag on.......

Like I said before, in 2002 and 2004 you had the occasional surprise of new leaders due to refuelling stops. There was also the knowledge that poles for Ferrari were not certain yet and in fact they were beaten for pole on a regular base. So Saturday could spring a surprise.

But even all of that kind of variety didn't happen in 1988.....

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 June 2014 - 19:07.


#118 Borko

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 13:56

Update - Round 8:

 

Mercedes GP results:

 

Lewis Hamilton - Ret 1 1 1 1 2 Ret 2

 

Nico Rosberg - 1 2 2 2 2 1 2 1

 

 

Ferrari in 2004:

 

Michael Scumacher - 1 1 1 1 1 Ret 1 1 1

 

Rubens Barrichello - 2 4 2 6 2 3 2 2

 

 

McLaren 1988:

 

Ayrton Senna - DSQ 1 Ret 2 1 1 2 1

 

Alain Prost - 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 Ret

 

 

Williams 1992:

 

Nigel Mansell - 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1

 

Ricardo Patrese - 2 2 2 Ret 2 3 2 2

_______________________________

 

 

10-6-4-3-2-1 point system:

 

1. Williams 1992 = 116 points

 

2. Mercedes 2014  = 112 points

 

3. McLaren 1988 = 110 points

 

3. Ferrari 2004 = 110 points

 

 

10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1:

 

1. Williams 1992 = 132 points

 

2. Mercedes 2014 = 126 points

 

3. Ferrari 2004 = 124 points

 

4. McLaren 1988 = 120 points

 

 

25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1:

 

 

1. Williams 1992 = 316 points

 

2. Mercedes 2014 = 301 points

 

3. Ferrari 2004 = 300 points

 

4. McLaren 1988 = 290 points



#119 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 15:11

In post 116 I gave an overview of the results of point scored for MP4/4 and F2004 if their season had been identical to that of F2002, being: 14 races with 2 cars started and the world champion's first race race with the car.

 

I have by now generated a stat in wich I can follow how the progress would have been for these cars over the season so I can add the Mercedes results as well. RThe difficulty remains of course that we can't predict yet if Lewis or Nico will be the champ. Since Lewis didn't score in the race and Nico won that first race, if he becomes the champ then the record increases with another victory.

For the time being I have maximized the score for mercedes, thus included Nico's win in the score.

 

the stat then looks like this for the 4 cars after 8 races with 15 starts with point score 10-6-4-3-2-1

 

                   Mp4/4           F2002          F2004         merc2014

1st                      7                    7                  7                   7

2nd                     5                    5                  4                   7

3rd                      0                    1                  1                   0

4th                      0                    0                  1                   0

5th                      0                    0                  0                   0

6th                      0                    0                  1                   0

 

points             100                104               102               112

 

With the season by now almost halfway it becomes clear that by now it becomes time to bring in the F2002 into the comparison because it may have had the weakest start of the three dominating cars of the past, by now we are entering the phase that the F2002 lost the least amount of points compared with the other two cars of the past.

 

There is still a lot that can go wrong for Mercedes but they definitely stand a good chance to surapss the average scores of F2002 in a comparable situation as that car's season.

 

Henri

Henr



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#120 Tsarwash

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 15:53

Update - Round 8:

Williams 1992:
 
Nigel Mansell - 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1
 
Ricardo Patrese - 2 2 2 Ret 2 3 2 2

Why are Williams not 1 1 1 1 1 2 R 1
2 2 2 R 2 3 R 2 ?

#121 Kingshark

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:59

In terms of raw speed domination, there is simply no comparison between the McLaren cars of the late 80's, the Williams cars of the early 90's, and the Mercedes today. Merc ain't got nothing on those monsters, even the early 2000 Ferrari's aren't in the same league (however, it should be noted that the F2004 qualified always with race fuel onboard).

 

2zzOfbt.png

 

Total gap: The gap between the fastest driver driving the studied car, and the fastest driver not driving the studied car of each qualifying session added together.

Average gap: The total qualifying gap divided by the number of races.

 

The Williams cars of the early 90's and McLaren cars of the late 80's averaged more than 1 second/lap faster than their nearest competitors. Mercedes only have about half a second, the early 2000's Ferrari cars have merely 2 tenths.



#122 sopa

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 11:01

Well, it depends on the car's competitiveness in quali trim v race trim. However, I do think F2002 is up there with the best in race trim. In qualifying trim it wasn't the case. Back then we had special qualifying engines and Williams-BMW-Michelin package was a match to F2002 on many circuits. However, they could do nothing against the Ferraris on race days in race setup.



#123 Henri Greuter

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 18:44

In post 116 I gave an overview of the results of point scored for MP4/4 and F2004 if their season had been identical to that of F2002, being: 14 races with 2 cars started and the world champion's first race race with the car.

 

I have by now generated a stat in wich I can follow how the progress would have been for these cars over the season so I can add the Mercedes results as well. RThe difficulty remains of course that we can't predict yet if Lewis or Nico will be the champ. Since Lewis didn't score in the race and Nico won that first race, if he becomes the champ then the record increases with another victory.

For the time being I have maximized the score for Mercedes, thus included Nico's win in the score.

 

the stat then looks like this for the 4 cars after 9 races with 15 starts with point score 10-6-4-3-2-1

 

                   Mp4/4           F2002          F2004         merc2014

1st                      8                    8                  8                   8

2nd                     6                    5                  6                   7

3rd                      0                    1                  1                   0

4th                      0                    0                  1                   0

5th                      0                    0                  0                   0

6th                      0                    0                  1                   0

 

points             116                 114               118               122

 

 

F2002 took a nose dive in this stat compared with the previous standings (post #119) with the second DNS of Rubens while MP4/4 and F2004 had another double victory.

But for F2002 the worst is behind it. There will be one 1-4 and 5 1-2's to follow. While for the MP4/4 and the F2004  there are some non point scores yet to follow.

The no points score of of Rosberg makes it even more exciting to see if the Merc will match or even better the statistics of F2002.

 

The season start for the Mercedes however remains the best of four supercars

 

 

Henri



#124 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 17:49

In post 116 I gave an overview of the results of point scored for MP4/4 and F2004 if their season had been identical to that of F2002, being: 14 races with 2 cars started and the world champion's first race race with the car: thus a total of 29 starts

 

I have by now generated a stat in wich I can follow how the progress would have been for these cars over the season so I can add the Mercedes results as well. The difficulty remains of course that we can't predict yet if Lewis or Nico will be the champ. Since Lewis didn't score in the race and Nico won that first race, if he becomes the champ then the record increases with another victory.

For the time being I have maximized the score for Mercedes, thus included Nico's win in the score.

 

the stat then looks like this for the 4 cars after 10 races of 15 starts with point score 10-6-4-3-2-1

 

                   MP4/4           F2002          F2004         merc2014

1st                      9                    9                  9                   9

2nd                     7                    5                  5                   7

3rd                      0                    1                  2                   1

4th                      0                    1                  1                   0

5th                      0                    0                  0                   0

6th                      0                    0                  1                   0

 

points             132                 127               132               136

 

First: I made a typo in the overview after 9 races F2004 had not 6 but only 5 second placed after 9 races. That is corrected in the overview after 10 races.

 

 

F2002 took yet another nose dive in this stat compared with the previous standings (post #123) with Rubens finishing only 4th in the 10th race of the season so Mercedes gained another point on the F2002. While MP4/4 had another double victory, and F2004 equalling the Mercedes score of 1-3.

But the last 1/3rd of the season and for this stat record is to come now, And F2002 will only add double victories from now on. Mercedes has still a great chance to beat the F2002 records since they have a rather substational buffer.

 

 

Henri



#125 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 14:46

In post 116 I gave an overview of the results of point scored for MP4/4 and F2004 if their season had been identical to that of F2002, being: 14 races with 2 cars started and the world champion's first race race with the car: thus a total of 29 starts

 

The difficulty remains of course that we can't predict yet if Lewis or Nico will be the champ. Since Lewis didn't score in the race and Nico won that first race, if he becomes the champ then the record increases with another victory.

For the time being I have maximized the score for Mercedes, thus included Nico's win in the score.

 

the stat then looks like this for the 4 cars after 11 races of 15 starts with point score 10-6-4-3-2-1

 

                   MP4/4           F2002          F2004         merW05

1st                    10                  10                10                   9

2nd                     8                    6                  5                   7

3rd                      0                    1                  3                   2

4th                      0                    1                  1                   1

5th                      0                    0                  0                   0

6th                      0                    0                  1                   0

 

points             148                 143              146               143

 

All of a sudden, the game is all but over. The beating for Mercedes in Hungary has dropped them to third best, equal on points with the F2002. While is is known alread that the F2002 had the best ever scores within a season counted over the races it dit, th chance that Mercedes might break this record is gone. They have equal points to the F2002 with still 4 races to go and in all of those 4 races the F2002 scored double victories. They can still achieve the same and thus equal the point score of F2002 but then the Ferrari will be declared the winner due to one more victory.

Right now the record of the MP4/4 remains impressive but  the next event is MP4/4's worst of them all: the double retirement in Italy.

 

for the remainer of the season: Let's see if Mercedes still mamages to break the scores of F2004 and MP4/4

 

Henri