64 replies to this topic

[Victor]

Spain Grand Prix was the opportunity to have F1 and GP2 racing in the same circuit this year.

The GP2 pole driver, Stephane Richelmi, qualified faster than Chilton, Bianchi, Ericsson and Kobayashi.

Four GP2 cars would have made it to the F1 race.

I want the the pinnacle of motorsport back!

 

[Scotracer]

So you're saying the Mercedes were around 3 seconds faster? 

 

It's still fastest...

[scheivlak]

Apples and oranges - just look at e.g. the different tyre compounds.

 

Interestingly enough the race pace of the GP2 cars was rather slower in comparison (best laps in 1:34 compared to Marussia 1:31 and Caterham 1: 33)

 

But it sure shows that F1 aero regulations have gone rather extreme (top speeds this weekend in Barcelona were higher than ever IIRC).

Edited by scheivlak, 11 May 2014 - 20:55.

[4MEN]

No need to open a new topic on this but I agree with the OP. 

[Juan Kerr]

Apples and oranges - just look at e.g. the different tyre compounds.

 

Interestingly enough the race pace of the GP2 cars was rather slower in comparison (best laps in 1:34 compared to Marussia 1:31 and Caterham 1: 33)

 

But it sure shows that F1 aero regulations have gone rather extreme (top speeds this weekend in Barcelona were higher than ever IIRC).

So they've speeded them up whilst slowing them down? Sounds about right doesn't it when people consciously mess with things instead of letting them evolve.

[KingTiger]

What does pinnacle of racing even mean? These are the most complicated racing machines to ever grace a race track if that's what you want.

 

 

Apples and oranges - just look at e.g. the different tyre compounds.

 

Interestingly enough the race pace of the GP2 cars was rather slower in comparison (best laps in 1:34 compared to Marussia 1:31 and Caterham 1: 33)

 

But it sure shows that F1 aero regulations have gone rather extreme (top speeds this weekend in Barcelona were higher than ever IIRC).

 

The reduced aero is fantastic, I love watching the drivers have to fight the car, not like last year where they were on rails pretty much. 

[ollebompa]

Current F1 technology is in it's infancy, and without testing it's hard to make gains. F1 teams are good but they are not gods. Give it some time.

[Andrew Hope]

Faster racing is not necessarily better racing.

[4MEN]

Faster racing is not necessarily better racing.

So what? We are not discussing better racing. We are talking about the pinnacle of motorsport. Someone said the 2004 Barcelona race was boring. Ok. But at least the drivers sweated their nomex then. 

 

Quote from Artur Craft from F1Technical:

"Lewis' 2014 pole had him cornering Campsa(Barcelona's T9) at 210kmh, while Rosberg's 2013 pole was at 245kmh and Webber's 2010 had him flat out at 260kmh".

 

If that's true it's sad.

[rhukkas]

The fact you can literally buy a seat in F1 means it's not the pinnacle of anything.

 

F1 doesn't NEED to be 10 seconds quicker than GP2 by the way.

[Ross Stonefeld]

So what? We are not discussing better racing. We are talking about the pinnacle of motorsport. Someone said the 2004 Barcelona race was boring. Ok. But at least the drivers sweated their nomex then. 

 

Quote from Artur Craft from F1Technical:

"Lewis' 2014 pole had him cornering Campsa(Barcelona's T9) at 210kmh, while Rosberg's 2013 pole was at 245kmh and Webber's 2010 had him flat out at 260kmh".

 

If that's true it's sad.

 

No it just means they banned exhaust blown trickery, tweaked the aero rules a bit, and increased the minimum weight a bunch.

[4MEN]

No it just means they banned exhaust blown trickery, tweaked the aero rules a bit, and increased the minimum weight a bunch.

Next year they can ban front and rear wings and introduce an ecofriendly L4 and cars would corner Campsa at 175 km/h. F1 fans are already used to it. Just saying, I don't like this trend. I think F1 cars should be the quickest cars around corners. And now, if that's the case if by a slim margin. 

[Risil]

Meh. Never used to worry MotoGP fans that their pinnacle-of-racing bikes went round corners slower than 250s. The laptime, the technology and the show is the king.

[McLaren]

Next year they can ban front and rear wings and introduce an ecofriendly L4 and cars would corner Campsa at 175 km/h. F1 fans are already used to it. Just saying, I don't like this trend. I think F1 cars should be the quickest cars around corners. And now, if that's the case if by a slim margin. 

 

But as proven time after time in F1, the cars will get faster through these same corners as these cars continue to evolve. That is part of what makes F1 so great... the speed of the development which can't be matched in any other motorsport.

Edited by McLaren, 11 May 2014 - 22:05.

[alfa1]

As commented by others, the tyres didnt manage to link up with the Catalunya circuit very well this year. producing abnormally low lap times.

 

For example, the Bahrain qualifying lap this year was only 0.86 seconds slower than last year... and this will vary from circuit to circuit but the 4.5 seconds slower this year at Catalunya is by far the worst of any tracks so far.

[Zava]

if my math is not off, some quick calculations led to these numbers:

 

Nasr (fastest of GP2), 26 laps, no pit stops: 42 minutes 2 seconds -> 1:37.00 average lap time

Ericsson (slowest of f1), 64 laps, 2 pit stops (4 pit laps): 1 hour, 42 minutes, 31 seconds -> 1:36.107 average lap time (1:35.25 excluding pit laps)

Hamilton (fastest of f1), 66 laps, 2 pit stops (4 pit laps): 1 hour, 41 minutes, 5 seconds -> 1:31.9 average lap time (1:31.19 excluding pit laps)

[pingu666]

presuming gp2 is with the old cheese pirelli's that explains the fast qually n slow race

[SenorSjon]

That was the sprint race. The feature race does have pitstops. I find only 1 second difference quite appaling actually.

 

I do like the higher topspeeds. It makes the brake distance longer and so more chance in overtaking. From 320 to 230 is much less chance of an overtake than 350 to 190.

[Retrofly]

So what? We are not discussing better racing. We are talking about the pinnacle of motorsport. Someone said the 2004 Barcelona race was boring. Ok. But at least the drivers sweated their nomex then. 

 

Quote from Artur Craft from F1Technical:

"Lewis' 2014 pole had him cornering Campsa(Barcelona's T9) at 210kmh, while Rosberg's 2013 pole was at 245kmh and Webber's 2010 had him flat out at 260kmh".

 

If that's true it's sad.

 

Lewis was plastered in sweat after the race.

 

Also, lose car = more corrections = more effort.

 

These guys are all sawing away at the wheel like mad men.

 

A few years ago with more aero and better tyres the cars were probably easier to drive

 

At least this formula brings back some actual driving instead of driving around on rails stuck to the floor.

[black magic]

every era has had drivers driving to the limit except with the pirelli tyre and now potentially fuel conservation drivers have had to stay well inside the maximum of the car.

 

I dont recall previous instructions to a driver to stay 2 sec back to preserve tyres

 

when a 43 schumacher bemoans not having to drive at his limit the thrust of the opinion stands true and relevant

 

2 - 3 sec gap only to gp2 is too small

[bmardini]

for those defending F1 - small elephant in the living room; cost of a gp2 season vs cost of a f1 season.

 

F1 NEEDS to be dramatically faster, under no circumstances whatsoever should there be overlap, ever.

 

Otherwise whats the point exactly? Pinnacle of Motorsport? Yeah, just about.

 

Its a mockery, I don't understand this formula anymore and unsurprisingly have stopped watching races.

[PayasYouRace]

I'd be worried if the GP2 cars were faster than the F1 midfield. Marussia and Caterham are hardly representative of F1 pace.

[SenorSjon]

But they easily spend double that to GP2. Why bother with F1 than? Just buy a stock GP2 car and go racing with it. Cheaper and faster than their current F1-effort.

 

If the amount of money teams sink in F1 was spend on only setting the GP2 car up, they would be faster.

[teejay]

Indycar were doing practise laps today at 223 mph, so fast!

 

BEHOLD YOUR NEW GOD

[Zava]

for those defending F1 - small elephant in the living room; cost of a gp2 season vs cost of a f1 season.

 

F1 NEEDS to be dramatically faster, under no circumstances whatsoever should there be overlap, ever.

 

Otherwise whats the point exactly? Pinnacle of Motorsport? Yeah, just about.

 

Its a mockery, I don't understand this formula anymore and unsurprisingly have stopped watching races.

pinnacle of motorsport, because it is sill reasonably faster despite much more difficult, much more tight regulations. GP2 doesn't have a development race, doesn't have big budgets, so they live by tech regulations where it is much easier to build a fast car, even with low budget. whereas f1 gets faster and faster every year, and gets its wings cut every few years to not get too fast. they got a bigger cut now, at the start of the new regulations, to leave a bit more room to improve. 

 

remember, this is the closest GP2 cars will get to the f1s for a while.

[Jackman]

But they easily spend double that to GP2. Why bother with F1 than? Just buy a stock GP2 car and go racing with it. Cheaper and faster than their current F1-effort.

 

If the amount of money teams sink in F1 was spend on only setting the GP2 car up, they would be faster.

If it was only double, I doubt anyone would care. GP2 teams have budgets of less that £5m a year, even for the top teams.

[SenorSjon]

I thought GP2 was around 20m/year? I always hear them complain about prices for spare parts. They are made in some Bernie E. factory for gold prices.

 

 

Indycar were doing practise laps today at 223 mph, so fast!

 

BEHOLD YOUR NEW GOD

 

And in Europe you can watch IndyCar next to nowhere in a legal way.

[PayasYouRace]

It helps that GP2 cars are mass produced to a relatively basic standard, providing an economy of scale. There's no competition between constuctors, and that saves a lot of cash. If every GP2 team had to design and built their own cars it would be a lot more expensive and they'd have to be more restricted than F1 to keep them at a lower level. Conversely, if every F1 team had to run the Mercedes W05 for 3 years, F1 would be a lot cheaper. It's comparing apples and oranges.

 

Also, no F1 car since the early 50s has ever had the luxury of a 4 litre engine. In fact it always seemed odd to me that GP2 was in the situation of the feeder series using larger engines than the top class, though that isn't as relevant now with small turbos in F1.

[jagxk8]

 

Spain Grand Prix was the opportunity to have F1 and GP2 racing in the same circuit this year.

 

The GP2 pole driver, Stephane Richelmi, qualified faster than Chilton, Bianchi, Ericsson and Kobayashi.

 

Four GP2 cars would have made it to the F1 race.

 

I want the the pinnacle of motorsport back!

 

I agree it's rubbish I was at the Jerez tests I couldn't believe how slow and quiet the cars were and no longer the smell of rubber, oil, petrol in fact no atmosphere at all. I had tickets for four days and left before the end of the third day. I've loved F1 since I started following at the track and on tvin 1969 ,but this is so terrible. F1 is where the future of road cars come from, but it should not be a test bed for road cars. 

If you've never seen or heard real F1 car at the track you may think these are good believe me they are not. 

What happens when the fans at the track have seen these awful cars and don't go to the tracks next year, then the sponsors start to pull.out

I hope I'm wrong, but are we seeing the end of formula one? I remember group7 sports car racing when in 1970's the Porsche 917's were reaching 243 mph on the mulsanne straight we've gone so far backwards.

[PayasYouRace]

Your Jerez experience appears to be the exact opposite of mine.

[Jackman]

I thought GP2 was around 20m/year? I always hear them complain about prices for spare parts. They are made in some Bernie E. factory for gold prices.

No: you could probably buy most of the grid outright for that.

 

Teams complain about prices because that's what they do: sure, they're paying Bernie in this case, but in almost every junior category you've got one supplier (Dallara, in this case) and they charge per the contract, but at least you know what the costs are going to be upfront. If you had multiple suppliers you really wouldn't have a clue on costs year to year, and because they'd be competing on quality as well you'd probably end up with pricing impacts, so at least from a planing level it's better to know what to expect up front, so the teams can cost it and charge their drivers accordingly.

[SpartanChas]

So what. The caterham and Marussia are not good cars. I remember when a GP2 car was quicker in Monaco than HRT and people used it to say that HRT were too slow etc. now it's become a reason to bash the new formula.

GP2 cars are completely different to F1 cars now and they might look almost as fast if you take single lap times out of context, but if they attempted a Grand Prix they would be nowhere. They're built to very different regulations. Couldn't carry enough fuel for a start.

Edited by SpartanChas, 12 May 2014 - 10:21.

[scheivlak]

 

I hope I'm wrong, but are we seeing the end of formula one? I remember group7 sports car racing when in 1970's the Porsche 917's were reaching 243 mph on the mulsanne straight we've gone so far backwards.

Well, if there's anything you can't complain about it's the top speed the current F1 cars reach.

[Brandz07]

Alex Lynn's GP3 pole time was just 5 seconds off the slowest F1 time, that's more surprising if you ask me..

[purplehaireddolphin]

Personally, I'm loving this new spec F1, it's great to see cars with more grunt than grip and the drivers having to fight the car, it's so much better than watching them drive as though it was a poor computer game where the driver didn't have to turn the wheel

[SenorSjon]

I feel disconnected to the car. You expect revving to happen, but first an alphabet of MGU-systems kick in, and then the engine is revving (a bit).

[4MEN]

Personally, I'm loving this new spec F1, it's great to see cars with more grunt than grip and the drivers having to fight the car, it's so much better than watching them drive as though it was a poor computer game where the driver didn't have to turn the wheel

That's a poor consolation. We could remove one tyre and see the drivers having to fight the car too. Give them 1000 hp and they will have to fight too.

[chrcol]

What does pinnacle of racing even mean? These are the most complicated racing machines to ever grace a race track if that's what you want.

 

 

 

The reduced aero is fantastic, I love watching the drivers have to fight the car, not like last year where they were on rails pretty much. 

 

agreed, I Also agree with brundle they need to take it further.

 

drivers keep radiong in saying the car sucks and then been told they lapping good trimes love it.  They been spoilt in recent years been able to floor it round corners, that to me was broken.
 

[4MEN]

agreed, I Also agree with brundle they need to take it further.

 

drivers keep radiong in saying the car sucks and then been told they lapping good trimes love it.  They been spoilt in recent years been able to floor it round corners, that to me was broken.
 

So you prefer a driver fighting with the wheel through a corner at 200 km/h and 3G rather than flooring it down at 260 km/h with 5G. That's not the essence of F1, IMO.

[mtknot]

Alex Lynn's GP3 pole time was just 5 seconds off the slowest F1 time, that's more surprising if you ask me..

and they're louder... 

[SpartanChas]

So you prefer a driver fighting with the wheel through a corner at 200 km/h and 3G rather than flooring it down at 260 km/h with 5G. That's not the essence of F1, IMO.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=J-tSjhsgla8

The drivers will still get 5gs around corners like 130R which is probably going to be flat still. And how can 5g be the essence of F1 when it was impossible until the 4th decade of the sport?

[SenorSjon]

Everything is louder... you can actually hear a grid girl fart when they start the engines.

 

Perhaps Maldonado can come back to GP2 and team op with Cecotto Jr.

[Jackman]

What, the guy who won the feature race in Barcelona from P16 in dry conditions?

[purplehaireddolphin]

That's a poor consolation. We could remove one tyre and see the drivers having to fight the car too. Give them 1000 hp and they will have to fight too.

we've got close racing and difficult to control cars, what's not to like?

[Alfisti]

So what? We are not discussing better racing. We are talking about the pinnacle of motorsport. Someone said the 2004 Barcelona race was boring. Ok. But at least the drivers sweated their nomex then. 

 

Quote from Artur Craft from F1Technical:

"Lewis' 2014 pole had him cornering Campsa(Barcelona's T9) at 210kmh, while Rosberg's 2013 pole was at 245kmh and Webber's 2010 had him flat out at 260kmh".

 

If that's true it's sad.

 

How is that sad??? We've been BITCHING for 20 years that there's way, way too much downforce. They finally strip it back and we see cars squirming all over the shop and people think it's sad. 

 

Watching Alonso and Kimi wrestle the Ferrari is fantastic, it seems like it wants bite them all afternoon. 

[SpartanChas]

I actually really hope the tyres don't bite in to the Tarmac at Monaco either. Watching the cars go through Tabac and round the swimming pool, back end hanging out all over the place. If that happens then bollocks to how fast GP2 is.

[Fondmetal]

Would be funny if the fastest GP2 car is quicker than the bottom 10 F1 cars...

[chipmcdonald]

What is sad is that Peter Windsor had Bottas on his show and asked him (para) "what was it like driving the F1 car?" and he said something like "not a lot different than the GP2, maybe a little slower in some areas.  The brakes are good".

 

In other words... "Meh".

 

I remember when it was considered a great honor and privilege to drive an F1 car, because it was *so superlative* - not just in braking, but in every respect.

 

No more.

 

It occurs to me that, in the glare of the innevitable loss of Bernie steering the ship, "someone" could be thinking "well, we'll just let GP2 move into F1's place - cheaper, basically as fast as it is now".

 

F1 *as a brand* does not have to mean anything.  What "GP2" is today could easily be labeled "F1" someday.

[chipmcdonald]

... but you know, I have to say "fine", because in reality what F1 has become this year leaves nothing to be desired anymore.  I'd rather see the drivers going at it in GP2 cars than what is passing as an "F1 race car" this year.

[Disgrace]

for those defending F1 - small elephant in the living room; cost of a gp2 season vs cost of a f1 season.

 

Indeed. Though this year represents the first of an upward curve (new regs), the relative costs are really the issue. Teams are bankrupting themselves in order to have the prestige associated with taking part in F1. The situation shouldn't have to arise even during the infancy of a new regulatory era.