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Pirelli 'Open' To Changing Tires To Be Less Conservative


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#51 SenorSjon

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:53

Bring the Goodyear rules back.

3-4 compounds (I believe there were hard/soft rain tires as well) and the teams pick their tire compounds. When a team is gentle on the tires, they could go softer, when a team chews up tires, they could go harder. It is so easy you know for sure F1 wouldn't do it.



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#52 Jovanotti

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:57

Online petition :)

Edited by Jovanotti, 16 May 2014 - 07:57.


#53 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 13:29

I like that idea, it was one of the best things about tyre war.  Teams could use tyres customized to their chassis.  They could pick strategies and tyres based on the strengths or weaknesses of their chassis.  I don't even like that they have to use both types of tyre in a race.  I'd prefer they just use one, and can choose whichever compound they wish, as long as they nominate in advance.. so save Pirelli the trouble of bringing all 5 compounds to each venue.

 

I'd prefer that in June of 2014, Pirelli has a tyre test, and tells the teams these are the 4 compounds and constructions for 2015.  At the test, each team get 3 sets of each, plus 1 set of each of this year's tires for baseline comparison.  The compounds and construction are fixed  for the entire 205 season.  At each race in 2015, you are allowed 10 sets of tyres.  We will bring any combination you want, but each team decides for themselves.  If you want 10 sets of super soft for Barcelona, that is up to you.  If you want 10 sets of hards for Monaco, that is what you will get.  You must declare your race tyres by 20:00CET on the Thursday 2 weeks prior to the event (4 weeks for flyaway races)  If you fail to nominate in time, you will receive 2 sets each of Hard and SuperSoft, and 3 each of Soft and Medium.  At the race weekend, you can use any tires at any time as you see fit.    


Edited by Frank Tuesday, 16 May 2014 - 13:32.


#54 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 13:32

Bring the Goodyear rules back.

3-4 compounds (I believe there were hard/soft rain tires as well) and the teams pick their tire compounds. When a team is gentle on the tires, they could go softer, when a team chews up tires, they could go harder. It is so easy you know for sure F1 wouldn't do it.

 

The tyre rules are a perfect example of how to ruin something with over-regulation.



#55 ballow

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 13:38

This is good news for Mercedes as they are far better on the softer compound  :rotfl:



#56 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:27

I'd prefer that in June of 2014, Pirelli has a tyre test, and tells the teams these are the 4 compounds and constructions for 2015.  At the test, each team get 3 sets of each, plus 1 set of each of this year's tires for baseline comparison.  The compounds and construction are fixed  for the entire 205 season.  At each race in 2015, you are allowed 10 sets of tyres.  We will bring any combination you want, but each team decides for themselves.  If you want 10 sets of super soft for Barcelona, that is up to you.  If you want 10 sets of hards for Monaco, that is what you will get.  You must declare your race tyres by 20:00CET on the Thursday 2 weeks prior to the event (4 weeks for flyaway races)  If you fail to nominate in time, you will receive 2 sets each of Hard and SuperSoft, and 3 each of Soft and Medium.  At the race weekend, you can use any tires at any time as you see fit.    

 

I was thinking exactly the same. :up: :up:



#57 kimster89

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:28

Im sure that if teams had the option to choose the type of tyres all of them would make the same choices and that choice would be made based on computer calculation. And all of the teams would pick the softest possible tyre otherwise they would be severly hampered in qualifying.



#58 Tuxy

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:36

Let teams choose between 2 different compounds.

 

This one size fits all approach guarantees certain teams will struggle before they even arrive at the circuit.



#59 bub

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:36

I'd prefer that in June of 2014, Pirelli has a tyre test, and tells the teams these are the 4 compounds and constructions for 2015.  At the test, each team get 3 sets of each, plus 1 set of each of this year's tires for baseline comparison.  The compounds and construction are fixed  for the entire 205 season.  At each race in 2015, you are allowed 10 sets of tyres.  We will bring any combination you want, but each team decides for themselves.  If you want 10 sets of super soft for Barcelona, that is up to you.  If you want 10 sets of hards for Monaco, that is what you will get.  You must declare your race tyres by 20:00CET on the Thursday 2 weeks prior to the event (4 weeks for flyaway races)  If you fail to nominate in time, you will receive 2 sets each of Hard and SuperSoft, and 3 each of Soft and Medium.  At the race weekend, you can use any tires at any time as you see fit.    

 

I like this idea but I get the feeling you could still end up most or all teams doing the same number of pit stops, which apparently some people don't like.



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#60 FerrariV12

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:41

Im sure that if teams had the option to choose the type of tyres all of them would make the same choices and that choice would be made based on computer calculation. And all of the teams would pick the softest possible tyre otherwise they would be severly hampered in qualifying.

 

Even if they did, it would still at a stroke remove any potential for moaning or politics around Pirelli's choice for a particular weekend suiting a particular car or whatever, I'm generally in favour of anything that moves more reponsibility and accountability for a team's performance onto the individual teams themselves.



#61 bub

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:45

 

Im sure that if teams had the option to choose the type of tyres all of them would make the same choices and that choice would be made based on computer calculation. And all of the teams would pick the softest possible tyre otherwise they would be severly hampered in qualifying.

 

I think the teams would pick the tyres that are best for them overall. I don't think they're gonna pick a tyre that is good for qualifying if it hampers them in the race and means they will have to stop 10 times.


Edited by bub, 16 May 2014 - 14:45.


#62 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:53

Im sure that if teams had the option to choose the type of tyres all of them would make the same choices and that choice would be made based on computer calculation. And all of the teams would pick the softest possible tyre otherwise they would be severly hampered in qualifying.

Monaco would be a good example.  Since it is hard to pass, track position is very important.  Obviously they'd use Super Softs for qualy.  The computer simulation is going to tell you that 2 stops for 3 sets of SS is the fastest way, but that strategy depends on not getting stuck behind anyone at any point.  Would the teams risk race pace for a tyre that would last the entire race (at Monaco, that would probably be Medium).

 

The important thing is that if the teams have the wrong tyres, it is their own fault.  As it is now, Pirelli's choice can hurt one team and help another.  It is much more acceptable to me for a team to be disadvantaged because of their own decision rather than that of a third-party. 



#63 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:56

 

 

 

I think the teams would pick the tyres that are best for them overall. I don't think they're gonna pick a tyre that is good for qualifying if it hampers them in the race and means they will have to stop 10 times.

 

But they can pick different tyres for qualy and race.  They can bring some of all 4 compounds if they want to.  10 sets in any combination of SS, S, M and H.



#64 Atreiu

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 15:00

I think marketing and press play a role too. Maybe their supplier contract is not priced as high as it could be because of their plan to milk the F1 exposure as they are doing now. 

 

Yes, possibly.



#65 charly0418

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 19:16

This is good news for Mercedes as they are far better on the softer compound  :rotfl:

 

really doesnt matter at this point. We could bring monster truck tires and they'd still win



#66 pingu666

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 19:36

teams would bitch and moan about how fast there super softs die, plus it may or may not be that safe on some tracks.

 

pirelli did use the "soft" tyre pretty much everywhere in the first year though, could just bring one tyre.



#67 Alexandros

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 07:57

A few misconceptions

 

1. "Drivers are now pushing" (and they weren't last year).

 

No. Drivers are not even close. They are so "relaxed" nowadays that they don't even carry a water bottle in some cases. Cornering is like -1G and speeds can be -30 to -50km/h in fast corners. A driver can't push when he loses grip every time he tries to take a corner (and he's not even attempting to go fast through it). There can be no "pushing" when the tire breaks traction for fun and the driver has to go slow in order to "nurse" the tire to avoid sliding-induced wear (read #2).

 

2. "Tires are getting worn as they are right now - imagine what would happen with softer compounds"

 

This year's tires have so little grip that a new type of wear has appeared: sliding-induced wear. In effect, cars are sliding too much (because the tires are too hard) and then due to all this sliding they wear the tires. It's a feedback loop.

 

3. "This year's tires are great".

 

Yep, so great that almost all of the teams can't even find any grip with them. 99.99% of the fans don't even realize the effect tires have in this years championship.

 

The problem with these tires are that they are out of sync with these f1 cars. It's like they are made for a different category of cars (with much more serious aero/mechanical loading). Unless an f1 car has excessive mechanical grip or significant downforce, they won't really be able to make the tires work. The cars that do not fit these criteria are automatically out of the window of tire operation (not only temp wise but also loading-wise). 

 

Note: This is not a case of the best car winning because the did the best job. It's having some cars gain an extra advantage because they are inside the tire operating window when others are not - gaining more time than they deserve based on their car design fundamentals (cog/df/mech. grip/braking power/engine performance/drag/weight etc).

 

4. Softer compounds = cheese tires

 

A tire can be soft but have a performance degradation which is linear to tire wear. It is not necessary to have 2x-3x levels of degrading performance compared to wear level.

 

5. Tire range names

 

Just because a tire is called supersoft or hard, doesn't mean it is. The names are ALWAYS relative to a specific year's tire range. If in one year the tires are too soft, the "hard" could be softer than the "soft" of another year where the tires are harder.


Edited by Alexandros, 18 May 2014 - 11:13.


#68 Tommay

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:10

A few misconceptions

1. "Drivers are now pushing" (and they weren't last year).

No. Drivers are not even close. They are so "relaxed" nowadays that they don't even carry a water bottle in some cases. Cornering is like -1G and speeds can be -30 to -50km/h in fast corners. A driver can't push when he loses grip every time he tries to take a corner (and he's not even attempting to go fast through it). There can be no "pushing" when the tire breaks traction for fun and the driver has to go slow in order to "nurse" the tire to avoid sliding-induced wear (read #2).

2. "Tires are getting worn as they are right now - imagine what would happen with softer compounds"

This year's tires have so little grip that a new tipe of wear has appeared: sliding-induced wear. In effect, cars are sliding too much (because the tires are too hard) and then due to all this sliding they wear the tires. It's a feedback loop.

3. "This year's tires are great".

Yep, so great that almost all of the teams can't even find any grip with them. 99.99% of the fans don't even realize the effect tires have in this years championship.

The problem with these tires are that they are out of sync with these f1 cars. It's like they are made for a different category of cars (with much more serious aero/mechanical loading). Unless an f1 car has excessive mechanical grip or significant downforce, they won't really be able to make the tires work. The cars that do not fit these criteria are automatically out of the window of tire operation (not only temp wise but also loading-wise).

Note: This is not a case of the best car winning because the did the best job. It's having some cars gain an extra advantage because they are inside the tire operating window when others are not - gaining more time than they deserve based on their car design fundamentals (cog/df/mech. grip/braking power/engine performance/drag/weight etc).

4. Softer compounds = cheese tires

A tire can be soft but have a performance degradation which is linear to tire wear. It is not necessary to have 2x-3x levels of degrading performance compared to wear level.

5. Tire range names

Just because a tire is called supersoft or hard, doesn't mean it is. The names are ALWAYS relative to a specific year's tire range. If in one year the tires are too soft, the "hard" could be softer than the "soft" of another year where the tires are harder.


1) Disagree, the drivers are pushing a ton more, the cars are all over the place. Just because there not taking as much speed through doesn't mean anything, tell that to any lower class formula or driving series. Compare that to cheese tyres where the drivers were taking the corners far slower then they had to because that was the quickest way to get from start to finish, at least they are now attempting to go as fast as they can

2) maybe this type of wear is better? One that doesn't just count on thermal deg but instead how good the driver+car is. You don't have to be genius to realise the better car and driver will slide less.

3)bullshit. What you've pretty much said there was the best teams with most downforce can get the tyres working better. Think about it for a second, shouldn't that be the case? The previous tyres were far more luck based on who it it right as now understood them, at least now thy can just say need more heat. Something that comes with more DF

4)Agree with you here, all Pirelli has proven is they are incapable of making tyres with grip and longer duration, as what we have now certainly wasn't the plan.

5)Again agree, all facts

#69 Jovanotti

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:26

I somehow fail to understand why it is so hard to make a grippy compound that lasts long enough. It seems with these Pirelli's you either have soft, grippy tyres that degrade way too fast (as the gap between new and old tyres is huge), or you get the hard compound that doesn't even heat up on a high energy track as Barcelona and leads to degredation due to cars sliding around. During the tyre war era, some Michelin teams sometimes used the front tyres for more than one stint because they kept coming back after the graining phase and actually were quicker after ~20 laps than new ones - with cars which put a lot more energy into them than today. With hindsight from what we have now, these compounds were amazing.

Despite having one single supplier now, it seems the tyres are more of an issue than back in the mid 2000's. I guess Pirelli just doesn't have to try hard enough because there's no competition.


Edited by Jovanotti, 17 May 2014 - 08:31.


#70 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:39

I'm with you Jovanotti, bring back the michelins please...or make similar tyres.

#71 Jovanotti

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:47

I think every Kimi fan has a soft spot for Michelin's  ;) 



#72 Timstr11

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:51

@Tommay

Drivers are still doing lap deltas.

In a Barcelona post-race interview, Rosberg said he had to adhere to the lap delta so that he had enough performance in hand for the last laps.

 

The cars are sliding due to the combination of harder tyres and lower downforce compared to last year.



#73 Alexandros

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:51

1) Disagree, the drivers are pushing a ton more, the cars are all over the place. Just because there not taking as much speed through doesn't mean anything, tell that to any lower class formula or driving series. Compare that to cheese tyres where the drivers were taking the corners far slower then they had to because that was the quickest way to get from start to finish, at least they are now attempting to go as fast as they can

2) maybe this type of wear is better? One that doesn't just count on thermal deg but instead how good the driver+car is. You don't have to be genius to realise the better car and driver will slide less.

3)bullshit. What you've pretty much said there was the best teams with most downforce can get the tyres working better. Think about it for a second, shouldn't that be the case? The previous tyres were far more luck based on who it it right as now understood them, at least now thy can just say need more heat. Something that comes with more DF

4)Agree with you here, all Pirelli has proven is they are incapable of making tyres with grip and longer duration, as what we have now certainly wasn't the plan.

5)Again agree, all facts

 

1) Just because drivers slide around doesn't mean they are really pushing. Don't take my "opinion" on it... the drivers say it all the time:

 
Perez: "The problem is that Pirelli is not helping us at all to be able to push and enjoy the driving more," he said. "We have a lack of downforce on the cars compared to last year and we have very hard compounds.... All the drivers in the briefing are complaining that we go around and we are sliding because it's difficult to find any grip."
 
Ericsson: "On every set of tyres the balance just wasn't there and that meant I couldn't really push at all."
 
Drivers don't go "wow, now we are pushing like hell because of all the sliding".
 
2) I'd rather use the tire and have it wear from being used, rather than sliding.
 
3) No, the previous tire worked (=gripped) for everyone and then the order was determined by car fundamentals. Now it's not even working for everyone so car fundamentals are more irrelevant. It's not a case of the best car being rewarded right now. It's a case of having a tire that does not work, except for one or two cars. This is not how a tire should be behaving in any sporting category (rather it should be able to work for EVERYONE). The situation is not really equivalent to anything we've seen so far.

Edited by Alexandros, 17 May 2014 - 08:52.


#74 Alexandros

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:53

I think every Kimi fan has a soft spot for Michelin's  ;)

 

And the Mclaren never really used them correctly  :lol:



#75 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:55

I think every Kimi fan has a soft spot for Michelin's  ;)


Yup I'm sure about that :D like Heikki Kovalainen said couple if years ago " those michelin tyres were real racing tyres that drivers could really push them to the limits unlike bridgestones and pirellis"

#76 Tapz63

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 11:23


1) Just because drivers slide around doesn't mean they are really pushing. Don't take my "opinion" on it... the drivers say it all the time:

Perez: "The problem is that Pirelli is not helping us at all to be able to push and enjoy the driving more," he said. "We have a lack of downforce on the cars compared to last year and we have very hard compounds.... All the drivers in the briefing are complaining that we go around and we are sliding because it's difficult to find any grip."

Ericsson: "On every set of tyres the balance just wasn't there and that meant I couldn't really push at all."

Drivers don't go "wow, now we are pushing like hell because of all the sliding".

2) I'd rather use the tire and have it wear from being used, rather than sliding.

3) No, the previous tire worked (=gripped) for everyone and then the order was determined by car fundamentals. Now it's not even working for everyone so car fundamentals are more irrelevant. It's not a case of the best car being rewarded right now. It's a case of having a tire that does not work, except for one or two cars. This is not how a tire should be behaving in any sporting category (rather it should be able to work for EVERYONE). The situation is not really equivalent to anything we've seen so far.



Really? Car fundamentals aren't important? How the hell is the Mercedes able to work the tyres, witchcraft?

Why do you feel it is so impossible for any other team to do what Mercedes is doing, and so the tyres must be changed?

Ot I don't mind them bringing softer tyre's in the range, as long as we don't go back to cheese tyres.

#77 bub

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 13:51

I somehow fail to understand why it is so hard to make a grippy compound that lasts long enough. It seems with these Pirelli's you either have soft, grippy tyres that degrade way too fast (as the gap between new and old tyres is huge), or you get the hard compound that doesn't even heat up on a high energy track as Barcelona and leads to degredation due to cars sliding around. During the tyre war era, some Michelin teams sometimes used the front tyres for more than one stint because they kept coming back after the graining phase and actually were quicker after ~20 laps than new ones - with cars which put a lot more energy into them than today. With hindsight from what we have now, these compounds were amazing.

Despite having one single supplier now, it seems the tyres are more of an issue than back in the mid 2000's. I guess Pirelli just doesn't have to try hard enough because there's no competition.

 

Maybe that's what Pirelli were asked to do? I thought the point was for Pirelli to make some tyres with more grip that degrade faster and other tyres with less grip that degrade slower but still degrade. I also thought that the point was for the cars this year to have less grip, be less on rails, move around more and be more of a handful. Does anybody know if Pirelli were asked to make tyres with more grip for this year to compensate for the reduced aero? If Mercedes were not in F1 this year, would people be complaining about the tyres?

 

Unless an f1 car has excessive mechanical grip or significant downforce, they won't really be able to make the tires work. 

 

 

 

So the cars with more grip work the tyres better and go faster? That sounds about right to me.



#78 garagetinkerer

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 19:34

So the cars with more grip work the tyres better and go faster? That sounds about right to me.

Depending on how you're making contact (tyres to tarmac)... you could wear them out rather quick. Tyres have a temperature range where they have the most performance available (speed over distance). So excess may just be as bad, if not worse than less grip as both cause excessive wear. The trick has always been to get tyres in their operating window, and to keep them there and then avoiding potential flat-spots/ punctures/ marbles as they go about their business.

 

Mercedes GP are doing something right with the tyres, but what it is, is something perhaps no one knows as yet.



#79 turssi

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 22:54

They could select the softer compounds for the races that come after Monaco to help the chasing pack to eliminate some sliding.

For next year they should produce tires no different from the ones that took Renault to be the champions in 2005 and 2006.

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#80 Alexandros

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 23:20

 

"So the cars with more grip work the tyres better and go faster? That sounds about right to me."

 

 

It would be alright if the relation was linear, but it's not linear, that's the issue here. 

 

If, say, the cars are fitted with last years tires you might see something like that:

 

Merc 1.30

RBR 1.30.2 (+0.2)

Ferrari 1.30.5 (+0.5)

Mclaren 1.30.7 (+0.7)

 

....supposing the car fundamentals are merc>rbr>ferrari>mclaren.

 

When you put tires that only the first one or two cars can actually grip with, you get something like

 

Merc 1.30

RBR 1.30.5 (+0.5)

Ferrari 1.31.3 (+1.3)

Mclaren 1.31.7 (+1.7)

 

...etc. So you get extra advantage from being closer inside the tire window, creating a massive (extra) difference which is not down to the car itself.

 

 


Really? Car fundamentals aren't important? How the hell is the Mercedes able to work the tyres, witchcraft?

 

Hope it's clearer.


Edited by Alexandros, 17 May 2014 - 23:21.


#81 Clatter

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 08:30

"So the cars with more grip work the tyres better and go faster? That sounds about right to me."

 

 

It would be alright if the relation was linear, but it's not linear, that's the issue here. 

 

If, say, the cars are fitted with last years tires you might see something like that:

 

Merc 1.30

RBR 1.30.2 (+0.2)

Ferrari 1.30.5 (+0.5)

Mclaren 1.30.7 (+0.7)

 

....supposing the car fundamentals are merc>rbr>ferrari>mclaren.

 

When you put tires that only the first one or two cars can actually grip with, you get something lik

 

Merc 1.30

RBR 1.30.5 (+0.5)

Ferrari 1.31.3 (+1.3)

Mclaren 1.31.7 (+1.7)

 

...etc. So you get extra advantage from being closer inside the tire window, creating a massive (extra) difference which is not down to the car itself.

 

 

 

Hope it's clearer.

If they are all using the same tyre and certain teams can get more from it, then how can that difference not be down to the car itself?

 

edit

In fact the more I think about it I can't help wondering how much their secret test last year may be showing itself now.


Edited by Clatter, 18 May 2014 - 08:34.


#82 Lazy

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 10:16

If they are all using the same tyre and certain teams can get more from it, then how can that difference not be down to the car itself?

 

edit

In fact the more I think about it I can't help wondering how much their secret test last year may be showing itself now.

Or maybe just the fact that they had such a nightmare with the tyres last year it made it very obvious where the problem was and focused their minds on it.



#83 Alexandros

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:26

If they are all using the same tyre and certain teams can get more from it, then how can that difference not be down to the car itself?

 

edit

In fact the more I think about it I can't help wondering how much their secret test last year may be showing itself now.

 

Cars have certain tire "preferences" depending their design. Some cars can have a lot of mechanical grip or excessive mechanical grip. You can take two cars with absolutely same fundamentals, like center of gravity, aero df, drag, engine etc but you can have a different suspension and then see that one of the cars is more suited to a particular tire than another. That's natural and it will give a small performance benefit in absolute pace and a larger tire wear during the race - if the car has larger mech. load to the tire. This will balance out so it's not a concern.

 

The problem begins when the mechanical grip of one car allows it to be inside the tire operating window while the other car is outside the tire window. That's when the first car will have a significant advantage in a large spectrum of situations (qualify, race etc). 



#84 Vepe1995

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 18:11

Cars have certain tire "preferences" depending their design. Some cars can have a lot of mechanical grip or excessive mechanical grip. You can take two cars with absolutely same fundamentals, like center of gravity, aero df, drag, engine etc but you can have a different suspension and then see that one of the cars is more suited to a particular tire than another. That's natural and it will give a small performance benefit in absolute pace and a larger tire wear during the race - if the car has larger mech. load to the tire. This will balance out so it's not a concern.

 

The problem begins when the mechanical grip of one car allows it to be inside the tire operating window while the other car is outside the tire window. That's when the first car will have a significant advantage in a large spectrum of situations (qualify, race etc). 

 

And that is a problem why? Since the tires are spec, the only difference comes from the car (and driver). Some teams built a better car than another teams. That is just like it should be, but it seems you want a 'non-spec spec series'.



#85 bub

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 18:23

But they can pick different tyres for qualy and race.  They can bring some of all 4 compounds if they want to.  10 sets in any combination of SS, S, M and H.

 

Gotcha. I think what you've proposed is a great solution. I hope those in charge at least consider implementing it.



#86 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 18:51

They´re making terrible calls with compounds. They should pick the 2 compounds they stimate can cover the race distance faster, period. If it´s a 3-4 stopper, so be it. It was painful to see the cars in Barcelona, and a good part of the problems seemed to be the tyre choice.



#87 P123

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 19:10

If they are all using the same tyre and certain teams can get more from it, then how can that difference not be down to the car itself?
 
edit
In fact the more I think about it I can't help wondering how much their secret test last year may be showing itself now.


Or more likely it could be the new simplified FRIC system they are said to be running this season that is supposedly similar to what Lotus have- a car that was very easy on tyres. I'm sure Merc also made a few signings from Lotus last season...

The tyre test may have been a benefit, but that was early in the life of Pirelli's development of the 2014 tyres, and according to Pirelli Merecedes were not aware of what they were testing. The other teams have had several tests with the tyres since then, so if it's all down to the tyres and Mercedes gained so greatly from a compromised test then you would have to think there is nothing now that would be secret to the other teams in terms of tyre behaviour.

#88 P123

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 19:13

The problem begins when the mechanical grip of one car allows it to be inside the tire operating window while the other car is outside the tire window. That's when the first car will have a significant advantage in a large spectrum of situations (qualify, race etc).


Who would have thought that, eh... You could get over that by spec suspension. But then again there are also variances between drivers in the same car.

#89 P123

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 19:15

They´re making terrible calls with compounds. They should pick the 2 compounds they stimate can cover the race distance faster, period. If it´s a 3-4 stopper, so be it. It was painful to see the cars in Barcelona, and a good part of the problems seemed to be the tyre choice.


They got Barcelona wrong, but if you start seeing 4 stoppers then that would also suggest they had got the compound choice wrong.

#90 Skinnyguy

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 19:23

They got Barcelona wrong, but if you start seeing 4 stoppers then that would also suggest they had got the compound choice wrong.


Depends. If the 4 stopper in soft and super soft is faster than the 1 stopper in hard and medium, then it is the better choice of the two IMO.

I think it's clear they're too conservative now. When primes are sliding so much that they barely last as long as option, then option should have been prime as it has same durability and more pace, and a softer option should have been picked.

This has already happened in some weekends this year, and generally primes are a marginal tyre for race day almost every race that they only use because regulations say so. That says enough really, prime should usually be the main race tyre, that's their purpose, not being an obstacle you have to go through.

#91 Clatter

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 20:21

Or more likely it could be the new simplified FRIC system they are said to be running this season that is supposedly similar to what Lotus have- a car that was very easy on tyres. I'm sure Merc also made a few signings from Lotus last season...

The tyre test may have been a benefit, but that was early in the life of Pirelli's development of the 2014 tyres, and according to Pirelli Merecedes were not aware of what they were testing. The other teams have had several tests with the tyres since then, so if it's all down to the tyres and Mercedes gained so greatly from a compromised test then you would have to think there is nothing now that would be secret to the other teams in terms of tyre behaviour.

 I know they said this, but I don't believe them, and other drivers have said it's quite easy to work out what is being tested.. 

 

I don't really know where they are deriving their benefit, but their test was much earlier than the other teams and any info gained could have been built into the design process a lot earlier. It's also possible that Mercs focus at that test was to gain info for this year rather than looking for performance last year. It's all guess work, but the manner in which the test took place has always been suspicious.



#92 chrcol

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:49

lol, pirelli want chaos again?

 

these tryes keep them, too hard ios better than too soft, I want less grip with longer stints, so less nursing going.



#93 chipmcdonald

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:06

I like tidiness of SenoSjon's suggestion:

 

"The Goodyear Rules".

 

4 tires, pick the one you like, get on with it.



#94 Jon83

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 11:10

Every idea, be it from Pirelli, FIA etc, seems to be a pretty stupid one at the moment.

 

Tyres have still been a factor this year and bringing softer tyres to more weekends is just going to make it even more so.



#95 Alexandros

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 11:34

lol, pirelli want chaos again?

 

these tryes keep them, too hard ios better than too soft, I want less grip with longer stints, so less nursing going.

 

No grip = more wear due to sliding around. 



#96 DainBramaged

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:36

It's not the first time I'm saying this here: why don't they let the teams choose two compounds out of the range for every GP? It wouldn't increase the number of tyres they have to bring, and it brings back the (although small) notion of the concept of customer tyres. Teams that are able to build a car that treats its tyres well would be rewarded, but others wouldn't be punished as severely as we saw it last year with Mercedes for example.

 

I came here to suggest the same thing. I agree with you 100%. I think one of the problems is that Pirelli don't get enough of chance to use a current F1 car when they are at the development stage. Letting teams choose which compounds they want for each race may help balance this out in an in-direct way.

 

One small problem might be that if there is a big-ish gap between compounds, teams may all end up on the same tires anyway, as the performance difference between one tire and the other may be greater (in a negative way) than the performance difference between the teams on the same tire - wow, does that make sense? Then if the gap between compounds is small then there won't be enough variation needed for all the different tracks.

 

I do feel sorry for Pirelli. They are only doing what they have been asked to do, all at the risk of negative brand image - the general public just hear "Pirelli" and "tires that don't last very long" - and they just get slated. I think its a very hard job for any tire company to build tires to the specs asked from the FIA recently without hundreds of hours of testing with the relevant machinery.



#97 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:39

I don't buy that excuse: "They are only doing what they have been asked to do".

 

They were asked about Canada 2010. Not grasp F1 with mediocre cheesecake tires the next 3-4 years and with a clown as PR-agent telling fans to STFU. No, Pirelli has brought this on themselves.



#98 DainBramaged

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:52

I don't buy that excuse: "They are only doing what they have been asked to do".

 

They were asked about Canada 2010. Not grasp F1 with mediocre cheesecake tires the next 3-4 years and with a clown as PR-agent telling fans to STFU. No, Pirelli has brought this on themselves.

Ok, lets say they are only trying to do what was asked of them. I always get torn between thinking "good on them for having the guts to try and make the sport more interesting" and "why on earth would you agree to try and make a tire that will recreate Canada 2010 at every race"

 

Some say brave and some say stupid. Maybe its a bit of both. Does anyone know if they were under contact for 2011 onwards or were they chosen because they said they were willing to try what they've been doing.....i can't remember.

 

Thankfully the tire situation seems to be a bit better this year. I wonder if thats because they went conservative due to the extra torque this year or if the teams have finally got on top of the tires. Maybe both?



#99 Jon83

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 13:05

I don't buy that excuse: "They are only doing what they have been asked to do".

 

They were asked about Canada 2010. Not grasp F1 with mediocre cheesecake tires the next 3-4 years and with a clown as PR-agent telling fans to STFU. No, Pirelli has brought this on themselves.

 

If they didn't do what they were asked to do, it would have been changed after 2011.

 

 



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#100 ballow

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 13:08

And which teams would benefit or lose out from cheese tyres?


Edited by ballow, 20 May 2014 - 13:09.