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The danger of nostalgia for overtaking


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#51 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:37

Ferrari demanded F1 implement a means so passing could be easy.

Yea, that never happened.

I don't think most F1 fans actually care that much about how much overtaking there is, they just want to know that it's possible and see on-track battles.  Those closing laps in Bahrain didn't have a single overtake (even if they did swap positions a couple times earlier in the race), but it was a great battle to watch.  It actually probably would have been a lot less exciting if Rosberg had gotten by, because he likely would have pulled away.

And we probably wouldn't have had such an exciting battle without DRS.

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#52 RealRacing

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 16:13

I guess what I have a problem with is that, having the greatest potential for making races more entertaining, this "era" of F1 is not making use of it simply because of the inability or unwillingness of F1 stakeholders to agree on things.

 

-The cars are more reliable than ever. Great! That means the probability for abandonments is lower, which means that the probability of racing should be higher.  But what do they do? They force the issue and penalize for engine and gear box failures, artificially punishing the driver. Or they introduce fuel limits or bad tyres that don't allow the cars to push (i.e., "use" that reliability for racing).

 

-They know more precisely than ever what needs to be done to reduce turbulence behind the cars to improve the probability of overtaking. But what do they do? They don't enforce rules strictly enough, don't follow through on initiatives, or, even worse, find band-aid solutions like DRS and bad tyres.

 

-They have the best technology and openness to monitor communication and car functioning and the drivers have supposedly never been more empowered, yet they are not able to ban TOs. 

 

And so on. It's maybe not that past F1 eras were better, but that the present one has failed to reach its full potential.



#53 Bartonz20let

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 16:35

I wonder what races with reverse grids from the previous race would produce, imagine Chilton or Kobi starting on pole and the likes of Lewis, Fred & Seb battling it out through 20 laps of traffic, total carnage and probably super exciting for about 3 races until it becomes predictable and we all get upset from the lack of quali.

So many things could be done but they are just as likely to spoil than enhance.

#54 Jimisgod

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 17:29

FFS, you add DRS to the cars and everyone cries. You make more radical tyres and everyone cries. You take them away, there's no overtaking and everyone cries again.

#55 sopa

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 20:07

The interesting thing is that despite Vettel domination I recall the first half of 2011 as one of the best periods of racing excitement I can ever remember. Malaysia, China, Spain, Monaco, Canada, Germany, UK, Hungary. All was interesting. This was racing WITH Pirelli tyres and DRS, in fact the first year of using those things. Plenty of overtakes and different strategies, and the final result was often unclear till the end. Chinese GP was almost considered a classic after it had ended with something like 5 different drivers looking strong for a race win during different phases of the Grand Prix. I remember there were discussions whether Vettel's domination overshadows the fact that we have so interesting races now.


Edited by sopa, 16 May 2014 - 20:10.


#56 uffen

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 22:27

I wonder what races with reverse grids from the previous race would produce, imagine Chilton or Kobi starting on pole and the likes of Lewis, Fred & Seb battling it out through 20 laps of traffic, total carnage and probably super exciting for about 3 races until it becomes predictable and we all get upset from the lack of quali.

So many things could be done but they are just as likely to spoil than enhance.

I know that if I were out of the points anyway I'd sure try to come in last at the race before Monaco.



#57 Victor

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 19:02

The problem of overtaking is not a question of quantity; it is a question of quality.

DRS (euphemism for automatic overtaking) simply took away the pleasure of watching high quality overtaking, which nowadays is becoming very rare.



#58 kapow

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 22:17

The biggest problem with DRS is that there's no tension anymore. Driver B is faster than Driver A, will he overtake him? 90% of the time yes, because he gets a huge advantage of DRS. Yes I know you'll tell me Hamilton holding off Rosberg but it's rare.

DRS and the lack of retirements has taken all the tension out of F1. We got a little of that back with the Pirellis falling off the cliff but even that has gone now.

I for one don't want to see constant overtaking in F1, but there should be a middle ground.

Overtaking should be hard but not impossible. Track position and good CLEAN defensive driving is part of the sport and should still count for something.

#59 Schuttelberg

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:59

There was something Ayrton Senna said years ago, which was a concern before he passed away :

 

He said something on the lines of racing being between drivers and not computers. This was in the early 90's and late 80's and as we all know, computers have come an incredibly long way since then. I think a lot of good has happened to the sport in terms of safety, however F1 has become a bit stupid. I'm sorry to use that word but some of the things that happen are incredibly just that word.

 

I think DRS and KERS and unpredictable tyres are a good thing. I don't want to see cars stuck behind someone for 30 laps in the hope to see a pass. I think the driver defending position needs to be given something and if it were up to me, I'd give the benefit of KERS only to the guy ahead if someone is a second behind.

Translation: 1 second behind? DRS Flap open, but NO KERS allowed in that time.



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#60 kapow

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:12

There was something Ayrton Senna said years ago, which was a concern before he passed away :

He said something on the lines of racing being between drivers and not computers. This was in the early 90's and late 80's and as we all know, computers have come an incredibly long way since then. I think a lot of good has happened to the sport in terms of safety, however F1 has become a bit stupid. I'm sorry to use that word but some of the things that happen are incredibly just that word.

I think DRS and KERS and unpredictable tyres are a good thing. I don't want to see cars stuck behind someone for 30 laps in the hope to see a pass. I think the driver defending position needs to be given something and if it were up to me, I'd give the benefit of KERS only to the guy ahead if someone is a second behind.
Translation: 1 second behind? DRS Flap open, but NO KERS allowed in that time.

Why should a driver in the lead be punished? Tactics and track position is part of the sport.

Let's bring in success balast eh?

Edited by kapow, 19 May 2014 - 07:12.


#61 SUPRAF1

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:37

I think the issue is quality/quantity. Overtaking has always been a rare beast in the sport, but when you saw one you knew it was crafted and more than that, bloody well earned. These days, a driver simply has to close to within 0.5s, wait for the main straight and press a button or two. The other driver is no longer allowed to defend in any meaningful way and is a sitting duck. There is no sport in it and with the utterly useless FIA on screen graphics, impossible to tell whether it's a DRS assisted overtake, or a genuine one. It's like tying a deer to the tree so it can't run away, or buying a Chinese gadget. You can tell yourself it's the same, but deep down you know ... it's a cheap fake.

 

That's not always true. Hamilton's defense against Rosberg has been pretty exciting to watch.

 

Personally, I think the main problem is that in F1, if everything goes to plan, you should expect no overtakes because the fastest car qualifies in front and the rest are in order by speed. To "fix" this, you have to add "artificial" things like DRS and high tyre wear.

 

There's no solution that can please everyone :p



#62 HoldenRT

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 12:32

Another comment that follows this line of thinking are.. "he only won because he had fastest car".. most times when people win, they have fastest car, that's how it works.  The drivers are all very good and one usually needs a faster car to beat another.  When you want to find something negative to say, you can always find it.. and if you want to find a positive, you can always find it.  Glass half full.. glass half empty.. etc.

 

In terms of overtaking, the biggest thing for me was the track.  On some tracks, DRS isn't needed but for some it really helps a lot because it's literally impossible to overtake without it and barely possible with it.  Unless there's extreme differences in tyre wear.  There also used to be looser rules in terms of blocking.  Now the drivers can't get away with much.  It's hard enough to follow behind, let alone make a move when the driver blocks.

 

The upside was that when a driver DID make a move, it was epic.. (like Schumacher overtaking Button in Imola 2005) but it also creates a lot of situations where it's just not possible and the driver infront has too much of an advantage to maintain position despite being slower.  You just want both drivers to have a chance, and then to fight it out.  Sometimes DRS creates that, but sometimes it gives the advantage too much to the car behind.