50 replies to this topic

[RedRocksF1]

Inspired by the recent declarations of Paul Hembery, I think F1 should hear the fans in order to improve the show and make it more atractive.

 

We could add our opinions here.

 

I´m not an expert but one thing I believe is important for the spectator is to know how the race goes, so I´ll try an F1 without regular pit stops, no refueling and no changing of tyres (except punctures or other damage of the car). It has 3 benefits: firstly to mantain the order in the race (the second is the second, not the virtual second), secondly to reduce costs (less tyres and pit lane operations), and thirdly if the tyres are harder there will be less grip.

Edited by RedRocksF1, 16 May 2014 - 11:36.

[Seanspeed]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

[Imateria]

If there's one thing I know for certain, it's that as a collective F1 fans haven't a clue what they want.

 

I'd want a complete overhall, say a return to ground effects (minus the sliding skirts because that would be a bit much) with simpler upper body aero to allow cars to follow more closely, and for a fairer distribution of the revenue so that capable but cash strapped teams like Lotus and Force India will have an even better chance of springing a surprise.

[ollebompa]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

You are absolutely right. Listening to fans got F1 in to a situation where the fans are not happy. Talk about irony.

[pdac]

Personally, I want to see a bunch of drivers racing. I don't want a 'team' race. I don't want cars that are fast but can't pass the car in front because of the 'dirty air', but I don't want a device that reduces drag to compensate. I don't want guys waving blue flags either. Maybe I just want something that's unattainable in the modern era, though.

[king_crud]

When i read these things it reminds me of the Simpsons episode where they introduce Poochie the Rocking Dog to the Itchy & Scratchy Show:

 

MAN
Okay, how many of you kids would like Itchy & Scratchy to deal with real-life problems, like the ones you face every day? (the kids all cheer and agree) And who would like to see them do just the opposite - getting into far-out situations involving robots and magic powers? (more cheering) So, you want a realistic, down-to-earth show... that's completely off-the-wall and swarming with magic robots? (The kids agree)

NELSON
Yeah, good.

MILHOUSE
And also, you should win things by watching!

The man sighs. The light is turned on in the observation booth, and Meyers appears at the mirror.

MEYERS
You kids don't know what you want! That's why you're still kids: 'cause you're stupid! Just tell me what's wrong with the freakin' show!

[Fastcake]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

True. As with every thread on this topic, every idea someone comes up with will be contradicted by someone else, and there will never be agreement on anything more complex than larger numbers on the cars.

[Jovanotti]

With the general consensus here, how can anybody possibly be backing democracy (assuming most of you are living in one) ?

[KWSN - DSM]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

 

Sadly I have to agree, except if is my suggestion everyone would agree to. Unfortunately the teams, the FIA and FOM are fickle, naive and should no be listened to for the most part.

 

[MrMan]

It seems the quickest fix to improve the show would be to supply every fan with their own rose tinted spectacles for their favourite year.

[johnmhinds]

F1 doesn't need the fans input, adding democracy into the sport is what is getting them into this mess, with every rule change veto'd to death by endless committees.

 

It needs a better dictator running the show who can take control of the whole sport and direct it down a more stable path than where it is heading now.

[Frank Tuesday]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

 

And "fans" aren't a homogenous group with a single opinion.  Instead of listening to the fans, I wish those in charge of F1 would tell us what they plan on F1 being.  If I like it, I'll keep watching, if not, I'll stop, just quit string me along.  If the purpose of F1 is to be a sport (which advertisers see value in being part of) then I'm in.  If the purpose of F1 is to be an advertising medium which will do anything to keep people watching, I'm out.  It's already gone from my favorite (by a large margin) racing , to maybe 4th at best.   

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 16 May 2014 - 13:05.

[Kristian]

F1 doesn't need the fans input, adding democracy into the sport is what is getting them into this mess, with every rule change veto'd to death by endless committees.

 

It needs a better dictator running the show who can take control of the whole sport and direct it down a more stable path than where it is heading now.

 

True... kind of. I'm not a big believer in democracy at all, but when you see fan polls saying that 93% don't want double points, surely they should be listened to? 

 

But indeed I'd far rather a Bernie running F1 than a committee. 

[KWSN - DSM]

With the general consensus here, how can anybody possibly be backing democracy (assuming most of you are living in one) ?

 

Doubt that anyone is living in a true democracy, on top of my head I can not think of a single one. The idea that F1 should be run by a Dictator have merit, as long as it is not Bernie and the money mongers.

 

[Seanspeed]

With the general consensus here, how can anybody possibly be backing democracy (assuming most of you are living in one) ?

Even in government, a democracy is still far from ideal in many ways. It assumes an educated, informed, intelligent and reasonable votership, when that is never the case on a whole. A dictatorship, in a perfect world, is probably more ideal, but the nature of how dictators come into power, plus the limitations of human mortality mean that is comes with a high risk factor that just isn't viable for long-term stability. Democracy is just the best compromise, allowing for the most checks and balances to stop anything from getting too out of hand, even if it means less ability to make larger-scale, decisive changes for more immediate short-term impact.

But anyways, the main point is that people, as a whole, don't often know what's best. They know what sounds good, but they don't understand the full implications and potential difficulties that arise from implementing their suggestions. They will often complain about one thing and then if they get the alternative, they will complain about that as well. Just all in all, people are a lot like a baby crying in a crib, frustrated and unhappy, but not able to articulate why and what the best course of action for fixing their unhappiness is.

I think the case of F1, it actually works fairly well as it is. FIA have the ultimate power, but the teams have quite a lot of say as well. It tends to lead to more or less positive results. Not everything will be perfect and there is a lot of finger pointing that probably isn't deserved(for example, Mercedes dominating this year and the racing not being so great is not the fault of the rule makers), but its easy to forget that things *could* be worse. I think things are better now than they were with Mosley in charge, with less of a megalomaniac at the helm who isn't constantly involving himself in grudge matches with the teams. Max wasn't wrong about everything though, as the teams *can* be self-serving, but that just involves having a guy running things that knows when that's happening and reacting to it reasonably and Todt seems to handle all this ok, as far as we're aware.

But F1 is a business, and of course you cant just *completely* ignore what your customers are saying, but looking to them for actual input is probably unnecessary. I don't think they are that out of touch to not understand what makes F1 good. The double points thing might seem to say otherwise, I know, and I agree that its nonsense, but their track record is otherwise fairly good recently. There really isn't any other problem where 'listening to the fans' could have really made a difference, I don't think.

[Andrew Hope]

This isn't American Idol.

[Massa_f1]

Bring back the style of F1 cars and rules we had between 97 and 2008. Much better than the dull rubbish we have had since 2009, We did get lucky with 2 title deciders, but the races during them seasons were still dull compared to a lot races in between the years I mentioned. 2002 and 2004 not included for obvious reasons.

[smitten]

I think F1 should hear the fans in order to improve the show and make it more atractive.

 

 

The first mistake is trying to turn it from a sport into a "show"

[xflow7]

Ironically, it's on the rare occasion that fans *do* clearly know what they want that the powers that be pay them no heed.  Ref: Abu Dhabi Double

[Lights]

I want racing like in Canada 2010. But I don't want the drivers having to cruise around just to make their tires last. But I also don't want the tires to be so robust that only 1 pit stop is needed. Then the races would be too boring, because it won't allow the use of different strategies. But I also don't want too much variation in strategy because then the races become difficult to follow. I want DRS banned because it removes the importance and quality of overtaking. But after it is removed I will definitely complain about overtaking being impossible. Additionally, I also want the racing to be like *insert time period of when I was a kid* because nostalgia, fading memories and that highlights video on YouTube definitely tell me that it was all much more awesome back then.

Edited by Lights, 16 May 2014 - 14:51.

[kedia990]

If there's one thing I know for certain, it's that as a collective F1 fans haven't a clue what they want.

 

I'd want a complete overhall, say a return to ground effects (minus the sliding skirts because that would be a bit much) with simpler upper body aero to allow cars to follow more closely, and for a fairer distribution of the revenue so that capable but cash strapped teams like Lotus and Force India will have an even better chance of springing a surprise.

 

My immediate thought is that, that might be a solution to a lot of problems.

 

My second thought is that my immediate thought is unsubstantiated and not well thought out - so I'll give it a little more thought.

[Atreiu]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

 

 

Yes.

Except when they ask for less expensive tickets and improved online coverage.

Edited by Atreiu, 16 May 2014 - 15:03.

[sabjit]

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

 

I couldn't agree more. This is why I think they should get on as a sport, fans come in time. If you try and make in entertaining then all you do is alienate the current fanbase and often people arent attracted to watching sports which are gimmicky.

 

Hence why if I ever end up in the same room as Todt, Ecclestone or any team principle on the Strategy group I would shout at them so loud that I got dragged off because they listen too much to what minority fans say.

[chunder27]

Sadly the view of some on here is pretty much the view of the people that run the sport, hence we are in the position we are in., where money dictates all, sport is redundant largely and the people that run the sport push and push until they reach breaking point, then start panicking because people start to drift away.

 

It's called greed.

[RealRacing]

I think there was a similar sentiment before 2009. Back then they even sent a questionnaire to fans to ask for their opinions and, AFAIK, the 2009 rule changes were, in part, a result of these opinions. I believe it was positive that they did some kind of market research to at least be able to make more informed decisions, or decisions that took the fans more into account. The sad part is that the implementation was a disaster and in many ways, responsible for what we have now, but that's another story. 

 

I agree in part with what posters are saying here, that people don't really know what they want and that they want all sorts of different, and in many cases, contradictory, things. However, I do believe there is an intrinsic value in asking fans for their opinions and make them count for decisions and the results may be better than we think. After all, last time, the survey was, of course, voluntary, and had no incentive, so I'm assuming that it was filled for the most part by fans that cared. If we are given the chance to formally give our opinions,  at least we feel that we had a saying and that, if things don't turn out the way we preferred, we either move on to a series that we like better or stick with whatever F1 becomes. Plus I believe there would be a pretty good chance that the majority of us fans at least agree on fundamental aspects that will make things better: like posters have said, the elimination of double points (and whoever came up with the idea), elimination of mandatory use of compounds, parc ferme rules, excessive aero, provision of better tyres, among others, and also, naturally, let them know what we think about their sparks, wakes, active suspensions and glowing brakes.

 

So, as someone here said, even if democracy is not ideal, at the end of the day it gives us the necessary results to choose if we continue to watch F1 or not. And, if not so decisive, it may well up at least improving things. 

[superden]

Fans are indeed fickle. They are also divisive, completely incapable of agreeing on anything and desire only what suits them, not what is best for the sport. They also believe that what they think is absolutely correct, irrespective of what evidence they are presented with to the contrary. Some are motivated by nostalgia, some by Xbox games and WWF coverage. A rare few are rational, and interested in the longer term future of the sport, sadly unlike most minority groups, they are incapable of shouting loud enough to be heard and even if they did, those in power wouldn't care what they said anyway.

 

The owners of the sport are indeed fickle. They are also divisive, completely incapable of being told anything and desire only what increases their profit, not what is best for the sport. They also believe that they can shovel any old sh*t on the fans, irrespective of what evidence they are presented with to the contrary. Some are motivated by personal greed, some by corporate expansion and others by a desire to 'spice up' the show. A rare few are rational and interested in the longer term future of the sport, sadly unlike most minority groups, they only shout loud enough to be heard long enough to collect their P45.

[sopa]

People want many things, this is natural. But the difference is that it is often damn hard to implement those wishes or dreams in real life conditions - and this applies to any area of life, including politics, which has been mentioned here.

 

Fans can want many things from F1, but they do not have the knowledge of what does it really mean if you try these things out in reality or which real-life implications these things have. FIA gets a lot of criticism, why this or that doesn't work, why do they take wrong decisions, etc. But they are the ones, who try to make things work in practice and that's a wholly different ballgame from writing opinions on Internet boards.

Edited by sopa, 16 May 2014 - 16:37.

[Jimisgod]

The fans will complain about how they could fix the 'broken' F1 and then once ideas are implemented the fans will complain about how F1 has been 'broken' by the changes.

[BullHead]

If they'd just drop double points, I don't care what they do....

[Nonesuch]

I think F1 should hear the fans in order to improve the show and make it more atractive.

 

Maybe, maybe not. The problem is that there are almost no unbiased channels by which to convey messages to the powers that be.

 

There is only one: viewing and attendance figures. The problem is that those merely show what is happening, not why.

 

They're pretty clear on the first though, as discussed in this thread. Viewing figures across Europe seem to be trending down, and not by minuscule amounts.

 

I think fans are fickle, naïve, irrational and shouldn't be listened to for the most part.

 

On which 'parts' are F1 fans - presumably only those who are not 'irrational' - worth listening to?

 

It's all fine and nice for F1 insiders to congratulate themselves on introducing supposedly ground-breaking new technologies, to pooh-pooh complaints about the sound of their engines power units, and to pretend Rosberg and Hamilton are bringing back the days of Senna and Prost - or whichever comparison du jour they prefer, but at the end of the day their sport/show is only relevant to manufacturers and sponsors alike if it brings in viewers.

 

I don't think there are any easy answers to the questions F1 is facing, but what I am fairly certain about is is that the powers that be could have scored an easy PR victory by dropping the Abu Dhabi Fireworks Festival & Royal Double Points F1 Bonanza the minute it became apparent what a ridiculous scheme it was.

 

I've been hoping that the WDC was decided in Abu Dhabi on the double points, but looking back on it now it seems almost sad that the team principles completely misjudged how close the season was going to be.

[uffen]

Even with a democratic government they set regulations, etc., that aren't liked by some. Then the voters get to voice their pleasure or displeasure when the next election comes around. That's more or less what we have with F1 and the FIA.  The FIA, lead by someone, goes through committee and stakeholder input (and they hear from fans, because I've written and I'm sure others have) and they decide on a path. Then later on the boss and his henchmen stand for re-election and the voters vote. I know the fans don't get a vote, just the FIA member delegates but in a democracy not everyone votes anyway.

 

Not sure how to improve that without making it too unwieldy.

So, get involved with your national FIA organization and have your say.

Edited by uffen, 16 May 2014 - 22:25.

[Mauseri]

You are absolutely right. Listening to fans got F1 in to a situation where the fans are not happy. Talk about irony.

I think the changes which fans wanted, were the good ones. Getting rid of fuel ruined qualifying, removal of refuelling to start with. Of course there are also idiots in the fans as there are in the lead of F1. You cannot just pick any proposal thrown and stick with it. But that's what happens when the proposal comes from top of the F1. Like the douple points for final race.

Edited by Mauseri, 16 May 2014 - 22:48.

[Nemo1965]

Funny. I thought there would be at last one poster who would say the obvious.

 

It is  ... dare I say it... make it easier for fans to watch F1. Either live or recorded. The tickets for Grand Prix are too expensive, you have to perform miracles (or be a bit... technical... ) to be able to watch races when it is not live or interupted by commercials. And that while F1 is a running commercial... for Red Bull, for Ferrari, for Vodafone.

 

Why are there no quality highlights available on youtube? Why is FOM hunting down anyone who tries to put stuff online?

 

One sad note on this big problem (the biggest in my eyes) of the way FOM deals with fans. I know a very good simulation website in the UK that had to take all its F1 mods for Gp4 offline. Why? Because FOM had threatened the owner with a lawsuit. Mods. For a fifteen year old game. Mods that have no infringement whatsoever on the commercial rights or possibilites of the owner. 

 

Crazy....

 

Imagine that. A billion dollar company that can't stand that gamer develop their own games and call it F1... That's the way to grow the love of the sport...

[Jimisgod]

Bring back the style of F1 cars and rules we had between 97 and 2008. Much better than the dull rubbish we have had since 2009, We did get lucky with 2 title deciders, but the races during them seasons were still dull compared to a lot races in between the years I mentioned. 2002 and 2004 not included for obvious reasons.

If you're saying that you clearly forgot almost every race between 1997 and 2008.

[Massa_f1]

If you're saying that you clearly forgot almost every race between 1997 and 2008.

 

Nope I have not forgotten they are more fresh in my mind than a lot of the races from 2009 onwards.

[Richard T]

I think 2010 was the best season in recent years.. Real tyres and no DRS but with the better aero fom 2009

[Wes350]

I think too many F1 fans want it both ways...

 

They want the so-called "close" racing of a spec series.

 

But they throw borderline hysterical conniption fits When the F1 rule makers do anything that can be interpreted as making F1 more "spec"...

 

The history of F1 is riddled with dominant teams running away with the championship.

 

The WDC has been sewn up well before the final race of the season more times than you can count on one hand.

 

Races with lots of overtaking have always been rare.

 

And the big teams will always do that which serves their own short term self interests and not what is in the future best interests of F1 as a sport. 

 

I figured all this out my first year watching F1 and I find I still enjoy it.

[pingu666]

sometimes i wonder if they do stupid rules to get f1 talked about and fans riled up on purpose

[billm99uk]

It's all fine and nice for F1 insiders to congratulate themselves on introducing supposedly ground-breaking new technologies, to pooh-pooh complaints about the sound of their engines power units, and to pretend Rosberg and Hamilton are bringing back the days of Senna and Prost - or whichever comparison du jour they prefer, but at the end of the day their sport/show is only relevant to manufacturers and sponsors alike if it brings in viewers.

 

The days of Senna and Prost are overrated anyway - the actual racing was mostly quite boring. It was the off track intrigue, on track crashes and cat fights on the podium that made that interesting. Fans spent most of the period moaning that modern drivers were a bunch of pussies and why couldn't they do it like Villeneuve & Arnoux anyway? But then misplaced nostalgia is a pretty consistent flaw in fan's mental makeup.

[tifosi]

Meh, I could care les about "the show".  We have NASCAR for that.

 

I want to see a return to the day when the constructor/teams did anything and everything possible to produce every 1/1000th of second they could within (or at least close too) the rules.

[senna da silva]

This is the best season yet!

 

Go Lewis! 

[SealTheDiffuser]

Yeah, listen to the "fans" that want loud archaic noise, 18" wheels, permanent overtaking (but without DRS) as they are used to have seen it in the good old days , no ugly noses (they love the low ones from the 80' early 90'), loads of horsepower without "hypocrit" hybrid efficiency and preferably 12 or 10 cylinders, a tyre war, Ferrari winning every race (with Lewis driving the car), and active suspension because it 's road relevant.

[HoldenRT]

This topic is so complicated that it gives me a headache to think about it.

[ElDictatore]

With the general consensus here, how can anybody possibly be backing democracy (assuming most of you are living in one) ?

 

Pff, democracies are overrated. If you want I can take over the despot part... Eh, why do I even ask, I'll do it anyway!

[TheUltimateWorrier]

If they'd just drop double points, I don't care what they do....

 

FIA Council: "Mr BullHead, we've taken on board what you've said and we are pleased to announce we are dropping double points. . .

 

. . . IN FAVOUR OF A NEW SOOPER-DOOPER QUADRUPLE POINTS SHOWDOWN IN ABU DHABI!  The FIA hopes you enjoy."

[billm99uk]

FIA Council: "Mr BullHead, we've taken on board what you've said and we are pleased to announce we are dropping double points. . .

. . . IN FAVOUR OF A NEW SOOPER-DOOPER QUADRUPLE POINTS SHOWDOWN IN ABU DHABI! The FIA hopes you enjoy."

Just go the whole hog and make it "Winner Takes All" - Abu Dhabi winner IS the World Champion!

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Just go the whole hog and make it "Winner Takes All" - Abu Dhabi winner IS the World Champion!

 

Spoiler

Vettel WINS!!!

[Rakaman]

Here's some input from this fan:

 

1. the cars looks like crap

2. the cars sound like crap

3. instead of coming up with ridiculous gimmicks, fix what's actually broken with overtaking like you should have done 15 years ago.

4. no more Tilkedromes in places where they don't know what a racecar is and simply don't care. 

[tkulla]

I think F1 the sport is fantastic right now. I've been watching for a very long time (1989) and while I have very fond memories of those early years I recognize that memory tends to highlight the great races and ignore the (many) snoozers.

But I do worry about a lack of young fans though, unlike Bernie. The solution to me seems simple - just give tickets to schools for those races that don't come close to selling out. I teach in an urban high school and I've seen how transformative "field trips" can be. The FIA already has a science program set up - just expand it to make it more inclusive (beyond the engineering types) and you're building a young audience for your sport. The race promoter will appreciate the increased concession and merchandise sales as well. And it costs Bernie nothing, which makes it possible.

[HeadFirst]

True. As with every thread on this topic, every idea someone comes up with will be contradicted by someone else, and there will never be agreement on anything more complex than larger numbers on the cars.

 

There are numbers on the cars?!?!?!