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Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part III


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#51 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 19:57

Glad to get confirmation that it was around 3.5 and 1 second gaps when SC came out, I read yesterday it was 6 and I knew it was not that big.

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#52 kryziuotis

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 20:55

Think you're quite lost mate. None of that was my thinking, and I didn't even say what I think about these events. I'm merely reflecting that, no matter what happens, we have to hear about Alonso being faster, even when the same situation repeats with the roles reversed.

I understood very well what you was trying to say - it was a shot at Alonsos's fans, not at Alonso himself, but you missed my point. If somebody states that Alonso was faster - it doesn't mean that he takes different sides when the roles are reversed. I never seen an Alonso fan claiming that he was faster in all those stints - only that he was faster overall at those races. And you can make such conclusion based on other stints without any mental gymnastics.

 

In fact Raikkonen's fans employs the mental gymnastic you illustrated. A few posts ago somebody was claiming that Raikkonen was faster both in Spain and Monaco - this is a perfect example of taking different sides when roles are reversed.



#53 Mally11

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 21:33

We can't even begin to conclude who was faster in Monaco as RAI race was ruined.

 

In Spain, again it's impossible to say if ALO was quicker as we don't know how much quicker he could have gone had he got past RAI after the first round of stops. If they both did the exact same 2 or 3 stop (pitting one lap after each other) then I imagine the race would have played out exactly like stint one. In close proximity to one another.



#54 as65p

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 21:49

Well, this time I can truly sympathize with KR's fans because to me it looked 99 percent sure Kimi would best Alonso in a race for the first time, and it must be hard to see that taken away.

 

From Kimis perspective it must be encouraging that his speed on race day appears now roughly on Alonsos level, although that sort of qualifying gap he can't afford too often, on other tracks it could mean 4 to 6 cars between them.



#55 Flyhigh

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 01:09

I don´t know why people draw any conclusions while extrapolating from past to present, different time, different circumstances. It doesn´t make sense when people talk about Raikkonen- Massa in 2008. It doesn´t make sense when people talk about Alonso-Hamilton in 2007.

 

Who was better yesterday? No idea, both of them did a really good job. Raikkonen did a really good start, pushed hard; he did what he had to do. Alonso did what he had to do as well, he wasn´t behind Raikkonen because he did something wrong and I don´t know who was faster. Obviously Raikkonen wasn´t faster because Alonso was closing the gap and it´s impossible to close the gap if you are slower, so the "saving tyres" theory makes sense. But if both of them had followed the same tactics, who would be faster? I don´t know, I don´t like the "if field". 

 

Raikkonen is improving and Ferrari surely has noticed. Time ago I said that if I were a F1 driver, probably the last driver I would want to have as teammate would be Alonso, because he is relentless. Raikkonen being a considerable amount of points behind Alonso doesn´t necessarily mean that Raikkonen isn´t doing a good job. Massa was terribly inconsistent; he had all kind of problems during the race.

 

Yesterday I read, sorry because I don´t remember the forumer, that F1 isn´t based on talent, that it´s based on results. Sorry but I cannot agree with this, F1 is based on talent, engineers talent, designers talent, drivers talent…top teams have the money and they want the talent, they need the talent and pay for it. They don´t pay for results because they cannot know the future, they invest in talent because talent can bring results. If they think that someone is really talented, that someone can be an asset, they surely think the results will come. Top drivers are in top teams for something, their talent. 

 

 

 

 

You have done a great job Kosmos. And this Please be respectful with both drivers and their respective supporters is simply  :up:


This is such a Raikkonen feel good post. Not so different from the "these guys are fighting for 4+ positions is not relevant where they finish" So in your view analyzing facts from the past to in order to draw conclusion about driver status is not a worthy endeavor ? I wonder how you would do as a team owner, Hey you know what guys? Who cares what happened 5 years ago, history is not that relevant. Vergne may be faster than Hamilton for all we know.  

Sure, I agree to an extent that things change and circumstances are different, but drivers level generally are what they are. Top tier drivers are top tier drivers, they may have a lower season, but it is the exception, just as great driver may put in a top tier race or even a season together, but is not consistent They don't change their level just out of circumstance, unless they manage to change a significant variable which is very rare to see. Perhaps Hakkinen after 1997. 

Considering Raikkonen was on a level below Alonso and more similar to Massa looking at their history, it was quite predictable he would get handed by Alonso as It would be quite predictable that if you put Hamilton and Alonso in the same team again, you would truly have a battle even more dramatic than in 2007, because Hamilton is a top tier driver.

What separate great drivers from top tiers is exactly how they manage to consistently put on great performances. While great drivers Button, Massa, Raikkonen put on top tier races here and there and seasons a few times in their careers. Of course, all I am saying is very obvious but the way some bring on opportunistic relativism and history selectivity.  

 



#56 turssi

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 01:17

Now it's starting to look good. Can Ferrari, Alonso and Raikkonen get second in WCC leaving RBR behind? That is the question!

#57 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 01:32

The pace difference for Kimi in Qualifying vs. Race (where he was better) suggests the same problem that troubled him at Lotus:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/110635

 

 


Lotus' head of trackside operations Alan Permane reckons that the front end characteristics of the 2012 Pirelli construction used since Budapest do not suit Raikkonen's style.

 

"He doesn't like the front end," Permane told AUTOSPORT. "He doesn't like the turn in. It is not sharp enough for him.

 

"But, if you try to sharpen it up too much, you then lose the rear.

 

"It has just unsettled him a little bit. But he is getting to grips with it.

 

Permane believes the gap between Grosjean and Raikkonen has been exacerbated by the fact the grid is so close now, meaning small differences in qualifying can make a big difference in terms of starting positions.

 

"In race mode, Kimi is fine with the tyres," he said.

 

"You have to qualify better and that is what he is struggling with."

 

 

More from Parmane:

 

 


"I don't want to speak ill of him, because Kimi has been absolutely fantastic for us, he really has. You can see the last two races he has qualified poorly and he's been on the podium. But that can't happen always. You have to be able to qualify well and race well and there's no doubt he races well. But he doesn't have the greatest of qualifying speed and, if next year the tyres get a bit harder, maybe he'll struggle a little bit more."

 

Given that this is a 3rd party, and an engineer to boot, I think it's safe to put forward this tyre hypothesis as an explanation for Kimi's troubles, particularly in Qualifying. Anybody who says this is an "excuse" is just trying to shut down discussion and should be considered a troll. If this discussion bothers you so much, think of it as a discussion to explain Kimi's difference in speed between qualifying and race instead of with respect to Fernando. 


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 01:35.


#58 Watkins74

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 01:38

^

Sure it can explain his problems. The point is that the tires are what the tires are. Pirelli is not going to make a "Kimi Compound".



#59 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:10

^

Sure it can explain his problems. The point is that the tires are what the tires are. Pirelli is not going to make a "Kimi Compound".

 

This is accepted by almost everyone in this thread. But Pirelli could change the tyres for next season, and if there's anything we've learnt in the Pirelli era it's that the tyres are NOT what they are - they changed them mid-season and have been susceptible to political pressure from various parties to go in different directions.  So there's a conversation to be had here and shouldn't be shut by vast hordes of people crying "excuses, excuses". 

 

More than that it's clear that these discussions bother a lot of people because it could be just one relatively mundane reason that explains a good chunk of the advantage Fernando has had over Kimi. People prefer that there be manifold reasons with some of them being a little intangible and magical perhaps. Furthermore, this talk about tyre changes etc. tends to highlight "adaptability" as one of Fernando's strengths, but I'll bet people want certain other aspects of his skills highlights (though if you connect the dots they are the same thing). 

 

Hence the desire to brand any explanation (even those provided by 3rd party engineers who predicted this phenomenon) as an excuse. 


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 03:12.


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#60 BJHF1

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 03:55

This is accepted by almost everyone in this thread. But Pirelli could change the tyres for next season, and if there's anything we've learnt in the Pirelli era it's that the tyres are NOT what they are - they changed them mid-season and have been susceptible to political pressure from various parties to go in different directions.  So there's a conversation to be had here and shouldn't be shut by vast hordes of people crying "excuses, excuses". 

 

More than that it's clear that these discussions bother a lot of people because it could be just one relatively mundane reason that explains a good chunk of the advantage Fernando has had over Kimi. People prefer that there be manifold reasons with some of them being a little intangible and magical perhaps. Furthermore, this talk about tyre changes etc. tends to highlight "adaptability" as one of Fernando's strengths, but I'll bet people want certain other aspects of his skills highlights (though if you connect the dots they are the same thing). 

 

Hence the desire to brand any explanation (even those provided by 3rd party engineers who predicted this phenomenon) as an excuse. 

 

How can you be so sure of this? I'm a big fan of both drivers, but personally I can see why those who are somewhat critical of Kimi and a number of his supporters might be annoyed by the continual "explanations" being fed, that do nothing to change the reality. I think this is all it boils down to really. I think the very best in this sport are regarded as drivers who can continually adapt to their situation/environment and perform at the highest level, without an explanation (in defense it seems) for this and that when less than desirable results are achieved - because you could seemingly apply an "explanation" to just about any driver on the grid when they don't perform to a desired level.

 

It doesn't take a mental giant to understand how to get heat into the tires....with that said, Kimi shouldn't have a problem getting any less heat into the tires than Fernando does, IF he has enough raw feel and car control. That is the reality to me.



#61 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 04:14

 - because you could seemingly apply an "explanation" to just about any driver on the grid when they don't perform to a desired level.

 

Indeed. Or apply an explanation as to why someone is doing better (the same thing really, except that in F1 there's a performance upper bound but no lower bound which skews things to explaining why someone is slower). 

 

In every other field it's interesting and engaging to dig into the details of how and why there's a difference in performance. But in F1 it's not because it bothers some people. Even you, while you seem to have an open mind, are resistant to the idea of reifying the reasons behind the performance gap. 

 

For example, are you really not curious why Sebastian Bourdais had such a difficult time in F1 when he was and is so good in other series? If you're happy with the "raw feel and car control" explanations, that's fine, but please let the rest of us dig into and discuss things in more detail. 


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 04:27.


#62 BJHF1

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:01

Indeed. Or apply an explanation as to why someone is doing better (the same thing really, except that in F1 there's a performance upper bound but no lower bound which skews things to explaining why someone is slower). 

 

In every other field it's interesting and engaging to dig into the details of how and why there's a difference in performance. But in F1 it's not because it bothers some people. Even you, while you seem to have an open mind, are resistant to the idea of reifying the reasons behind the performance gap. 

 

For example, are you really not curious why Sebastian Bourdais had such a difficult time in F1 when he was and is so good in other series? If you're happy with the "raw feel and car control" explanations, that's fine, but please let the rest of us dig into and discuss things in more detail. 

 

I have no problem discussing such, but I find it funny how these explanations will always come and go like the wind depending on the results achieved and what people really want to see/believe - after a while, hearing all of these explanations becomes a bit old and tired. 

 

Someone like Kimi has solid pace relative to his teammate like in Spain (where the teams really started moaning about the conservative compounds being used), and such discussions regarding Kimi's issues seem to be completely swept to the side. One race down the road in Monaco where Kimi has a poor qualifying relative to his teammate, and we're back looking for explanations (the tire one) that try to define why someone of Kimi's talent level isn't getting the results some believe he should get. From what I've seen, it's made worse by the continual explanations to seemingly defend Kimi's almost mythical natural talent that no other driver would ever really seem to get (?)

 

Regarding Bourdais - some things we will just never know. To me, the simple explanation is that the pedigree of talent in F1 is just on an entirely nother level to what Bourdais was used to/measured against, and although he wasn't terrible in F1, like a Di Resta, he just didn't have that something extra to really shine and sustain success in this highly competitive modern F1 environment.


Edited by BJHF1, 27 May 2014 - 05:04.


#63 aray

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:11

This is accepted by almost everyone in this thread. But Pirelli could change the tyres for next season, and if there's anything we've learnt in the Pirelli era it's that the tyres are NOT what they are - they changed them mid-season and have been susceptible to political pressure from various parties to go in different directions.  So there's a conversation to be had here and shouldn't be shut by vast hordes of people crying "excuses, excuses". 

 

More than that it's clear that these discussions bother a lot of people because it could be just one relatively mundane reason that explains a good chunk of the advantage Fernando has had over Kimi. People prefer that there be manifold reasons with some of them being a little intangible and magical perhaps. Furthermore, this talk about tyre changes etc. tends to highlight "adaptability" as one of Fernando's strengths, but I'll bet people want certain other aspects of his skills highlights (though if you connect the dots they are the same thing). 

 

Hence the desire to brand any explanation (even those provided by 3rd party engineers who predicted this phenomenon) as an excuse. 

whatever the way you want to put it forward it boils down  to one guy getting out more from the package than another...whenever one guy lose to other many reasons can be sighted for the shortcoming...then team-mate comparison have no meaning..

if  you want to claim situation is not favorable for Kimi now,then you have to admit in many situations Kimi beat his team-mates because condition favored him more..


Edited by aray, 27 May 2014 - 05:12.


#64 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:16

I have no problem discussing such, but I find it funny how these explanations will always come and go like the wind depending on the results achieved and what people really want to see/believe - after a while, hearing all of these explanations becomes a bit old and tired. 

 

That explanation and prediction was from an engineer at Lotus. Obviously tyre-related matters are influenced by external factors such as ambient + track temperatures, how the track loads the tyres, and the abrasiveness of the surface. Sometimes the tyres work and other times they don't. You're complaining that the tyres are not the same at every race?

 

 

From what I've seen, it's made worse by the continual explanations to seemingly defend Kimi's almost mythical natural talent that no other driver would ever really seem to get (?)

 

This is just a straw man you decided to stick in there for some reason. There are plenty of reasonable posters in this thread who don't claim any such thing, but who are shut down by whining about excuse-making every time a reason is discussed.  

 

 

 

Regarding Bourdais - some things we will just never know. To me, the simple explanation is that the pedigree of talent in F1 is just on an entirely nother level to what Bourdais was used to/measured against, and although he wasn't terrible in F1, like a Di Resta, he just didn't have that something extra to really shine and sustain success in this highly competitive modern F1 environment.

 

That's awesome man. Basically you're happy with the hand-wavy stuff.

 

Here's the level of detail I'm looking to discuss; Bourdais, after his retirement:


 

"The STR3 is a very quick car and had a lot of potential," he explained, "but it is a very unstable car on the entry to slow corners, and we had massive initial understeer in the high-speed corners, which are two things I am definitely not a fan of.

 

"So we ended up having to make big compromises from one track to another, because to get the balance right in the high-speed corners I just could not drive the car in low-speed turns, and vice versa. It was a no-solution deal. We were always shooting in between, and it was always an unhappy driver and slow lap times.

"The little improvements definitely helped go in the right direction, plus it was better or worse depending on the track configuration as well."



#65 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:18

whatever the way you want to put it forward it boils down  to one guy getting out more from the package than another...

 

if  you want to claim situation is not favorable for Kimi now,then you have to admit in many situations Kimi beat his team-mates because condition favored him more..

 

Yeah I agree with all of this. Why did you assume I didn't? 

 

I'm not even claiming that the "situation is not favourable for Kimi, that's why he's losing". I'm just saying that a good hypothesis for the gap so far is the tyres. But these conversations are shut down and derailed by cries of excuses. 

 

For the record. I think even of the tyres were comfortable for Kimi, he may not be able to beat Fernando. I just think he'll close the gap. 


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 05:22.


#66 wift

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:34

I am not going to dive into this tire discussion, although I admit that Kimi not getting temperature into the tires is not really a new problem and it has been affecting his qualifying for several seasons. 

 

Raikkonen and Alonso seem to be more even right now, at least in race situations. In Spain and Monaco Kimi has really upped his game, and without bad luck and bad strategy calls (let's not open this pandoras box again, right?) he could have finished ahead of Alonso. And in Monaco there's not even a discussion really. It's nice to see them battling more. And thanks to the big differences in speed between the teams, I think that the most thrilling battles this season will be between team-mates (Nico/Lewis & Fernando/Kimi.). Fred has the upper-hand right now, but I think Kimi is improving rapidly.


Edited by wift, 27 May 2014 - 05:35.


#67 BJHF1

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:48

That explanation and prediction was from an engineer at Lotus. Obviously tyre-related matters are influenced by external factors such as ambient + track temperatures, how the track loads the tyres, and the abrasiveness of the surface. Sometimes the tyres work and other times they don't. You're complaining that the tyres are not the same at every race?

 

No, not even close. I'm complaining that such "explanations" (the tire heating one), only seem to arise whenever Kimi struggles relative to his teammate. If he matches his teammate, then these "explanations" seem to be swept under the rug, to conveniently be used at a later date if he happens to struggle (even it had nothing to do with getting heat into the tires).

 

Basically, if there was a lack of performance which was all down to him (say a mistake, simply not being comfortable enough with the car, etc.), it seems to be taken out of the equation and replaced with an explanation (i.e. the tire heating one) to keep his somewhat overinflated (IMO) status intact.

 

This is just a straw man you decided to stick in there for some reason. There are plenty of reasonable posters in this thread who don't claim any such thing, but who are shut down by whining about excuse-making every time a reason is discussed.

  

  

It's probably because these reasons are served out far too often...after a while hearing the same explanations and supposed reasons become a bit of a broken record. I saw some thermal camera images on Ricciardo's car during the past weekends race, and there was basically no real measurable heat being put in the tire...yet you don't hear anything coming from him or the countless other drivers that were probably dealing with the same thing.

 

That's awesome man. Basically you're happy with the hand-wavy stuff.

 

Here's the level of detail I'm looking to discuss; Bourdais, after his retirement:

 

 

Ooo sorry...didn't want to be a bad boy and write a full fledged novel about Bourdais' flopping in this thread lol.


Edited by BJHF1, 27 May 2014 - 06:00.


#68 krumpli12

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:07

 

More than that it's clear that these discussions bother a lot of people because it could be just one relatively mundane reason that explains a good chunk of the advantage Fernando has had over Kimi. People prefer that there be manifold reasons with some of them being a little intangible and magical perhaps. Furthermore, this talk about tyre changes etc. tends to highlight "adaptability" as one of Fernando's strengths, but I'll bet people want certain other aspects of his skills highlights (though if you connect the dots they are the same thing). 

 

Hence the desire to brand any explanation (even those provided by 3rd party engineers who predicted this phenomenon) as an excuse. 

 

I agree that the tires play a big part in Kimi's vows. On the other hand, I don't think they are favorable to Fernando either. His performance dropped since they introduced the harder tires last year and this year it is the same. Of course, it is maybe not too visible to the untrained eye, but as I follow him closely for years now, it is evident that he is struggling with these tires. Or at least the car doesn't handle these tires too well. So it is not just Kimi whose performance is affected by them, imho.



#69 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:17

No, not even close. I'm complaining that such "explanations" (the tire heating one), only seem to arise whenever Kimi struggles relative to his teammate. If he matches his teammate, then these "explanations" seem to be swept under the rug, to conveniently be used at a later date if he happens to struggle (even it had nothing to do with getting heat into the tires).

 

That's not true at all though. Kimi and his fans discussed the Pirelli's and his problems with turn-in even as he was soundly beating Grosjean in the Lotus. It's about his own relative performance, not necessarily relative to his teammate. He knows when he isn't getting the most out of the car. 

 

And that's a Lotus engineer who is using the same explanation to predict his discomfort this year. You seem to be discounting his opinion as much as a forum posters. Why would a Lotus engineer do that? To make excuses when Kimi would get beaten by Fernando in the future?  :drunk:

 

 

I saw some thermal camera images on Ricciardo's car during the past weekends race, and there was basically no real measurable heat being put in the tire...yet you don't hear anything coming from him or the countless other drivers that were probably dealing with the same thing.

 

It's not necessarily all about heat, it's also about turn-in (and camber settings, toe-in). Its says so right in the article I posted and linked to. You're just being dismissive again because you don't want to hear about these reasons because it makes you uncomfortable - you much prefer hand-wavy magical stuff that puts Fernando in front, just like I said in the first post on this matter. 

 

And definitely there are other drivers who handle these tyres fine, that doesn't mean we must dismiss this reason for Kimi. Nobody is denying that this is a weakness of Kimi's (or a strength of Alonso and other drivers). 


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 06:52.


#70 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:18

I agree that the tires play a big part in Kimi's vows. On the other hand, I don't think they are favorable to Fernando either. His performance dropped since they introduced the harder tires last year and this year it is the same. Of course, it is maybe not too visible to the untrained eye, but as I follow him closely for years now, it is evident that he is struggling with these tires. Or at least the car doesn't handle these tires too well. So it is not just Kimi whose performance is affected by them, imho.

 

Definitely. I think he called them "inferior products" in an interview to Spanish journos. He's better at getting them to work for him. 


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 06:19.


#71 BJHF1

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:26

That's not true at all though. Kimi and his fans discussed the Pirelli's and his problems with turn-in even as he was soundly beating Grosjean in the Lotus.  

 

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense in terms of timing, as Kimi never was comfortable enough on the revised Pirelli's (which were introduced in the later part of the year) to soundly beat Grosjean. Or do you have a source that suggest he also struggled to some degree with the tires used in the first part of the year as well (when he was soundly beating Grosjean)?

 

And that's a Lotus engineer who is using the same explanation to predict his discomfort this year. You seem to be discounting his opinion as much as a forum posters. Why would a Lotus engineer do that? To make excuses when Kimi would get beaten by Fernando in the future?  :drunk:

 

 

I'm sorry, but his prediction doesn't automatically mean any deficit (like .7 in qualy @ Monaco), or lack of performance on Raikkonen's side is simply down to the supposed tires and unresponsive front end. It's a bit ironic that Permane even said "Kimi doesn't have the greatest of qualifying speeds," People like you will continue to look for any reason to cling to to avoid a truth, where maybe Fernando was just faster on the day for a number of reasons (including, but not limited to the tires/front end issues). 

 

Neither you or I see the picture with anywhere near 100% clarity or certainty, but I will say you seem to be a bit desperate to correlate any deficit or lack of performance from Kimi, as all being down to the tires at the basis of it all.

 

It's not necessarily all about heat, it's also about turn-in (and camber settings, toe-in). Its says so right in the article I posted and linked to. You're just being dismissive again because you don't want to hear about these reasons because it makes you uncomfortable - you much prefer hand-wavy magical stuff that puts Fernando in front, just like I said in the first post on this matter

 

.

Tell me something I haven't already heard. I don't think it's a matter of being an uncomfortable topic for me, rather me being annoyed by people like you continually looking for the answers they want to hear to fit the bill, and not facing the music. We've heard it all before and all the debate in the world on our side won't change the current regulations nor tire compounds.

 

And what's with the "hand-wavy magical stuff"...that seems like something you should do to get Pirelli to bring some Kimi compound in and to have Ferrari build a W05 (wishful thinking lol). At least I can face reality without desperatly needing to look for this or that reason (when Kimi doesn't produce the desired result), which don't add a whole lot of clarity to the end picture.


Edited by BJHF1, 27 May 2014 - 07:35.


#72 Oho

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:31

Definitely. I think he called them "inferior products" in an interview to Spanish journos. He's better at getting them to work for him. 

 

 

Well one does not need a trained eye to see Alonso also suffered last season at mid season compound change. Massa out-qualifying him something something like four times on a trot having been out-qualified all season long is bit of a give away.



#73 BJHF1

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:48

Well one does not need a trained eye to see Alonso also suffered last season at mid season compound change. Massa out-qualifying him something something like four times on a trot having been out-qualified all season long is bit of a give away.

 

Not neccesarily, as there are other things to factor in that make it not so clear cut - particularly as far as the compromise on set-up goes (between qualy and race) and other small untangible factors. I think (just my opinion) at that point, Felipe knew his days were numbered so he became a bit desperate to "look good" on the driver market, despite continuing the trend of finishing a mile behind Fernando in the races. By compromising his race set-up for 1 lap pace in qualy, at least he could get in front of Fernando for a short time to steal some spotlight.


Edited by BJHF1, 27 May 2014 - 08:05.


#74 krumpli12

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:52

Well one does not need a trained eye to see Alonso also suffered last season at mid season compound change. Massa out-qualifying him something something like four times on a trot having been out-qualified all season long is bit of a give away.

 

It will be interesting to see Fernando's and Kimi's relation to each other in this regard. Whereas I think both are not happy with the harder tires and their porfermances are heavily affected by them, there still seems to be some difference between them when it comes to tire choice. For example, Kimi was fine with the tires in Spain, while Fernando really struggled with them, and contrary, Fernando managed the tires in China just fine, while Kimi couldn't really do anything with them. Of course, it maybe simply depends on the track and on what each driver can bring out from the harder tires given the characteristics of each track.


Edited by krumpli12, 27 May 2014 - 07:53.


#75 boldhakka

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:02

 

I'm sorry, but his prediction doesn't automatically mean any deficit (like .7 in qualy @ Monaco), or lack of performance on Raikkonen's side is simply down to the supposed tires and unresponsive front end. 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've built up a straw man totally unnecessarily. I never said all of the deficit is down to this thing. Why did you do this?

 

 

Neither you or I see the picture with anywhere near 100% clarity or certainty, but I will say you seem to be a bit desperate to correlate any deficit or lack of performance from Kimi, as all being down to the tires at the basis of it all.

 

Amazing. Why did you read my hypothesis in this manner? Is it so threatening to you when people discuss the reasons for a performance gap?


Edited by boldhakka, 27 May 2014 - 08:03.


#76 DrF

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:10

Steady progress by Kimi, continuing to improve race by race. You can't ask for more than that.

#77 Seanspeed

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:21

Well one does not need a trained eye to see Alonso also suffered last season at mid season compound change. Massa out-qualifying him something something like four times on a trot having been out-qualified all season long is bit of a give away.

Massa outqualified Alonso several times early in the season as well.

Massa is no mug in qualifying in general.

#78 Heisenberg

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 10:10

Once Kimi's problems will be fully solved, he'll be there taking the fight to Fernando! It was a shame what happened in Monaco with Chilton, but this is racing.



#79 Cesc

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 11:34

Massa outqualified Alonso several times early in the season as well.

Massa is no mug in qualifying in general.

Massa has always been a fine qualifier and he coould beat Alonso from time to time. The thing is that as soon as the race started, it was clear since lap 1 that Alonso was going to be faster. I can think only 1 race were Massa was faster, Austin 2012.

 

Once Kimi's problems will be fully solved, he'll be there taking the fight to Fernando! It was a shame what happened in Monaco with Chilton, but this is racing.

 

Yes, but maybe when sorting this problems out, Alonso also improves. Or is Kimi racing against a machine?. Kimi will be closer in some tracks as in Bahrain and Barcelona and quite slower like in China but I don't there will be a great change in their relative pace.

 

Think that if the situation was the opposite, 4-2 to Alonso in quali and fast laps & 6-0 in race, many people would be saying that Kimi was destroying Alonso...



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#80 turssi

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:21

Did you guys notice the different approaches of our pilots in Monaco qualifying?

Fernando did one slower lap, maybe getting heat into the tires and then let it RIP! Kimi did full speed for straight two laps. Simple stuff but only one got it right!

#81 Heisenberg

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:23

Massa has always been a fine qualifier and he coould beat Alonso from time to time. The thing is that as soon as the race started, it was clear since lap 1 that Alonso was going to be faster. I can think only 1 race were Massa was faster, Austin 2012.

 

 

Yes, but maybe when sorting this problems out, Alonso also improves. Or is Kimi racing against a machine?. Kimi will be closer in some tracks as in Bahrain and Barcelona and quite slower like in China but I don't there will be a great change in their relative pace.

 

Think that if the situation was the opposite, 4-2 to Alonso in quali and fast laps & 6-0 in race, many people would be saying that Kimi was destroying Alonso...

Alonso isn't that great in qualy, Kimi has the edge there. In racing, both are great (just check what Alo did for Ferrari in the last years and how great Kimi raced these 2 years for Lotus), but where Alo has the edge is that he can adapt way better to the car, while Raikkonen needs it almost 100% to his liking.

 

I think Fernando is fine with the car, there's nothing much to improve for him personally, except of course, to improve the F14-T in general.

Imo they are both great drivers, one of the best in F1 today! I don't think we can talk about either of them "destroying" the other btw, but the END result is what matters! F1 fans don't care if a driver has a hard time adapting to the car, they care who has the most points, victories, titles etc. Schumi is considered to be the GREATEST by some because he has the most titles, but it's totally innacurate (and I am a fan of his!).


Edited by Heisenberg, 27 May 2014 - 12:26.


#82 mardmarium

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:32

 

 

This is such a Raikkonen feel good post. Not so different from the "these guys are fighting for 4+ positions is not relevant where they finish" So in your view analyzing facts from the past to in order to draw conclusion about driver status is not a worthy endeavor ? I wonder how you would do as a team owner, Hey you know what guys? Who cares what happened 5 years ago, history is not that relevant. Vergne may be faster than Hamilton for all we know.  

Sure, I agree to an extent that things change and circumstances are different, but drivers level generally are what they are. Top tier drivers are top tier drivers, they may have a lower season, but it is the exception, just as great driver may put in a top tier race or even a season together, but is not consistent They don't change their level just out of circumstance, unless they manage to change a significant variable which is very rare to see. Perhaps Hakkinen after 1997. 

Considering Raikkonen was on a level below Alonso and more similar to Massa looking at their history, it was quite predictable he would get handed by Alonso as It would be quite predictable that if you put Hamilton and Alonso in the same team again, you would truly have a battle even more dramatic than in 2007, because Hamilton is a top tier driver.

What separate great drivers from top tiers is exactly how they manage to consistently put on great performances. While great drivers Button, Massa, Raikkonen put on top tier races here and there and seasons a few times in their careers. Of course, all I am saying is very obvious but the way some bring on opportunistic relativism and history selectivity.  

 

 

It is different, not even close. I usually analyze facts, this is what I do. What happened six years ago was a fact then, not now. What would I do if I were a team owner? Like Ferrari team owners for example? Where were Massa and Raikkonen 5 years ago? Where are they right now? I´ve defended Massa, when people was saying that he was finished I defended him (finished? Look at him now), I thought last year, and the year before, that his speed was still there, but he was terribly inconsistent, I said it last year, the year before and I say it now, I must be coherent

 

I watch the races and I tend to overanalyze Ferrari drivers performances, this year I am more focused on Raikkonen than I was last year for example, and the man is improving, he is trying everything, he seems to be really motivated, this is what I see and this is what I say. He has been close to Alonso in several races, closer than Massa was in recent years. Has Alonso been better up to now? Yes, categorically yes, this is what I´ve seen, but it doesn´t mean that I cannot see Raikkonen efforts or his improvements. As I said Alonso seems to be relentless and surely being his teammate isn´t an easy task, but sometimes results don´t show the accurate picture, if you look at Monaco result, you can think that Alonso was much better than Raikkonen, but he wasn´t, although he wasn´t worse either, they were close, really close.

 

Do you want to read another thing that I´ve seen? I read people saying “Once Kimi’s problems will be fully solved…”, and I think, “as if Alonso wouldn´t have problems”. I read "I think Fernando is fine with the car, there's nothing much to improve for him personally" and I am  :confused: ...Alonso has lots of problems, he is fighting with the car, constantly, I have no idea why people say that this car suits Alonso or that he is fine with it, am I watching other races? I think that even Allison has said that both drivers have the same problems, but people keep saying that Alonso is fine, I have no idea where this comes from. Alonso complains (or expose what he thinks without any problem, whatever), this is something he does, but he doesn´t complain about car intrinsic characteristic or about set ups, I´ve checked it. I haven´t heard or read anyone involved in F1 saying that Alonso has problems with this or that and that those problems can affect him in the future,  but it doesn´t mean that he hasn´t have problems with the car. Both Ferrari drivers have problems and I must take this into account, the car they drive, when I analyze their performances.

 

I am not in this forum because I love some driver, or because I hate someone, or because I want to criticize or defend someone, not even because I am a Ferrari supporter, I am here basically because I really like F1 and this is a fast way to get information.


Edited by mardmarium, 27 May 2014 - 12:34.


#83 photon

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 14:45

Kimi has been faster than Alonso the last two weekends in a row, and I expect for him to continue to be so.  So not too concerned about whatever "problems" he's having.  It's not as if he would have a chance at the WDC even if he was receiving the same preferential treatment as his teammate does anyway.

 

Likewise, whatever "problems" he was having at Lotus apparently weren't too damaging, as he elevated that team to a completely different level from where they'd been years prior and where they've been since he left, while doubling the points of his teammate across every race that he drove across two years in a row.

 

Damn shame he went back to Ferrari and that he probably is stuck driving there again next season.



#84 pokerkid

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 14:49

Kimi has been faster than Alonso the last two weekends in a row,

 

Alonso was quicker in Spain.



#85 Hanzo

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 14:56

That is all that Kimi has at the moment. To be quicker or match Alonso. Time to start scoring some points, whatever Alonso does.

It is one thing to have less points than your team mate, and another thing to be so low in the clasification. One third of the season already.



#86 mardmarium

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 15:13

Kimi has been faster than Alonso the last two weekends in a row, and I expect for him to continue to be so.  So not too concerned about whatever "problems" he's having.  It's not as if he would have a chance at the WDC even if he was receiving the same preferential treatment as his teammate does anyway.

 

Likewise, whatever "problems" he was having at Lotus apparently weren't too damaging, as he elevated that team to a completely different level from where they'd been years prior and where they've been since he left, while doubling the points of his teammate across every race that he drove across two years in a row.

 

Damn shame he went back to Ferrari and that he probably is stuck driving there again next season.

 

Raikkonen is better everything is Ferrari´s fault...

 

Is this some kind of mantra? must be



#87 eronrules

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 15:22

Raikkonen is better everything is Ferrari´s fault...

 

Is this some kind of mantra? must be

seems to work with alonso for the last couple of years (what with all the godlike outdriving the shitbox etc etc ... :cat: )... so why not kimi???


Edited by eronrules, 27 May 2014 - 15:23.


#88 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 15:28

Raikkonen was quite unlucky in the race.

 

Looked to be on course for a podium after a great start, another race where he looked good for a decent result only for it not to happen.

 

Points wise, the season is probably gone, the deficit is too big considering they are always nose to tail in the races.



#89 mardmarium

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 15:41

@eronrules, please...

 

I am a Ferrari supporter, it hasn´t worked with Alonso because it hasn´t happenend with him, he has criticized the car and he has been right, why is this so difficult to understand, he was right. You can criticize the act of complaining if you like, but the most important thing for me is what is said. What he said was supported by other Ferrari members, even right after the ear tweaking Montezemolo said, "I understand Alonso complaints, the car isn´t cometitive enough". He wasn´t right with the "I want someone else´s car" and I said so, and I didn´t like that comment at all. But I cannot say that something is untrue when it is true, I would be living in denial, total denial.

 

I´ve read in this forum, repeated like a mantra, since the very beginning, that nothing, absolutely nothing, is Raikkonen´s fault, his race engineer, engineers in general, Matiacci (even insulting him, yes, insults, I´ve read insults towards Ferrari members), evil, incompetent and useless Ferrari...everything without any single evidence to support what is said. And I am not talking about Raikkonen fans in general, I am talking about what I am talking about.


Edited by mardmarium, 27 May 2014 - 15:42.


#90 darkkis

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:15

That is all that Kimi has at the moment. To be quicker or match Alonso. Time to start scoring some points, whatever Alonso does.

It is one thing to have less points than your team mate, and another thing to be so low in the clasification. One third of the season already.

Wish it was that easy when there's either rookies crashing into him or just Chilton.. :well: So it's not fair to say it's Kimi's fault.



#91 Kingshark

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:20

:lol:

 

BoaThTNIgAAXWC6.jpg



#92 REDalert

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:21

No, not even close. I'm complaining that such "explanations" (the tire heating one), only seem to arise whenever Kimi struggles relative to his teammate. If he matches his teammate, then these "explanations" seem to be swept under the rug, to conveniently be used at a later date if he happens to struggle (even it had nothing to do with getting heat into the tires).

 

Basically, if there was a lack of performance which was all down to him (say a mistake, simply not being comfortable enough with the car, etc.), it seems to be taken out of the equation and replaced with an explanation (i.e. the tire heating one) to keep his somewhat overinflated (IMO) status intact.

 

 

That "explanation" came from Alan Permane, he  has actually worked with Kimi, I bet he knows better than you or me..,

And they were not so close friends when Kimi left Lotus, I doubt that he would make any baseless excuses just to defend Kimi. 



#93 Cesc

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:30

seems to work with alonso for the last couple of years (what with all the godlike outdriving the shitbox etc etc ... :cat: )... so why not kimi???

 

Because Alonso is doing better than him, so the Ferrari can go faster than what Kimi can get out of it...



#94 Oldie

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:48

@eronrules, please...

 

I am a Ferrari supporter, it hasn´t worked with Alonso because it hasn´t happenend with him, he has criticized the car and he has been right, why is this so difficult to understand, he was right. You can criticize the act of complaining if you like, but the most important thing for me is what is said. What he said was supported by other Ferrari members, even right after the ear tweaking Montezemolo said, "I understand Alonso complaints, the car isn´t cometitive enough". He wasn´t right with the "I want someone else´s car" and I said so, and I didn´t like that comment at all. But I cannot say that something is untrue when it is true, I would be living in denial, total denial.

 

I´ve read in this forum, repeated like a mantra, since the very beginning, that nothing, absolutely nothing, is Raikkonen´s fault, his race engineer, engineers in general, Matiacci (even insulting him, yes, insults, I´ve read insults towards Ferrari members), evil, incompetent and useless Ferrari...everything without any single evidence to support what is said. And I am not talking about Raikkonen fans in general, I am talking about what I am talking about.

 

 

The thing is, the way I see this whole dilemma is that extremes create extremes.

Other party is keen to point out every mistake a driver does, even perhaps making it look bigger than it is just to rub it in - or see mistakes somewhere where there ain't one, or that if it was their fav driver in question they wouldn't be so keen to judge. The other side then takes the defensive measures to the max, and fail to recognize any mistakes or even half of it when there is a clear case. This is because they don't want to give any reason to the oppossing party to "feast" on, as they probaly would make a bitch slap look like a 1st degree murder. AND VICE VERSA.

This is pretty much the evergoing ball game in here. Why it is happening, because of lack of respect and fear that the otherside can say "I told you so". Which is really unnecessary. Negative behaviour and remarks feed negative behaviour.

That is why I like more positive touch. I just can't see why people would not just concentrade on supporting their fav driver(s) and put less effort on ripping on others.

 

That's not meant to be taken as one can't say anything negative about the other drivers. But think before you do, ask yourself do you have to, and if you still have the urge then do it with respect.

Avoid "rubbing it in", overdoing or underrating things. While your house stands in the sun and your neighbour is on fire, you shouldn't pour more gasoline on it.

 

Controversial things are bound to happen in this sport, and people react in heat of the moment, and that is understandable. But if your cool doesn't keep after three days then I don't know what to say.

 

Edit:

madmarium, this wasn't ment for you in particular but for all of us.


Edited by Oldie, 27 May 2014 - 16:51.


#95 photon

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:57

Alonso was quicker in Spain.

 

No he wasn't, he was given undercut and dramatically superior tire strategy. 


Edited by photon, 27 May 2014 - 16:58.


#96 Lone

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 16:58

That is all that Kimi has at the moment. To be quicker or match Alonso. Time to start scoring some points, whatever Alonso does.
It is one thing to have less points than your team mate, and another thing to be so low in the clasification. One third of the season already.

He should learn not to let other drivers crash in to him and he should improve the reliability of his car, and he should do a workshop with all the Alonso fans on this board, showing have loveable he can be.

That would improve his reputation, atleast among the Alonso fans on this board.

Other than that, he should just stick to his plan and improve as the season goes on, relatively to Alonso that is.

And, stay cool, something even Mattiaci has seemed to notice. The results will come, eventually, I hope!

Edit: I forgot the smiley :).

Edited by Lone, 27 May 2014 - 17:00.


#97 photon

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 17:03

Did you guys notice the different approaches of our pilots in Monaco qualifying?

Fernando did one slower lap, maybe getting heat into the tires and then let it RIP! Kimi did full speed for straight two laps. Simple stuff but only one got it right!

 

The difference is that Alonso was able to complete his "RIP" lap, whereas Raikkonen's got destroyed by yellow flag.


Edited by photon, 27 May 2014 - 17:03.


#98 mardmarium

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 17:07

The thing is, the way I see this whole dilemma is that extremes create extremes.

Other party is keen to point out every mistake a driver does, even perhaps making it look bigger than it is just to rub it in - or see mistakes somewhere where there ain't one, or that if it was their fav driver in question they wouldn't be so keen to judge. The other side then takes the defensive measures to the max, and fail to recognize any mistakes or even half of it when there is a clear case. This is because they don't want to give any reason to the oppossing party to "feast" on, as they probaly would make a bitch slap look like a 1st degree murder. AND VICE VERSA.

This is pretty much the evergoing ball game in here. Why it is happening, because of lack of respect and fear that the otherside can say "I told you so". Which is really unnecessary. Negative behaviour and remarks feed negative behaviour.

That is why I like more positive touch. I just can't see why people would not just concentrade on supporting their fav driver(s) and put less effort on ripping on others.

 

That's not meant to be taken as one can't say anything negative about the other drivers. But think before you do, ask yourself do you have to, and if you still have the urge then do it with respect.

Avoid "rubbing it in", overdoing or underrating things. While your house stands in the sun and your neighbour is on fire, you shouldn't pour more gasoline on it.

 

Controversial things are bound to happen in this sport, and people react in heat of the moment, and that is understandable. But if your cool doen't keep after three days then I don't know what to say.

 

I cannot see any dilemma here. 

 

I wasn´t talking about driver vs driver, (I am not interested in driver vs driver, I don´t compare them, I simply talk about their performances because they are the Ferrari drivers), I was talking about driver vs Ferrari. If I read, from the very beginning (from the very beginning, not three days ago), that Ferrari is something like pure evilness, yes, pure evilness, that everything they do is wrong while everything one driver does is right, without any evidence to support what is said, why should I like what I am reading? Why should I like to read that someone insults a member of my favorite team? in the heat of the moment? yeah, sure (anyway, should I like insults in the heat of the moment?), I know what I am talking about, do you know what I am talking about? maybe you should know before saying "But if your cool doen't keep after three days then I don't know what to say"... Three days? yeah, sure



#99 Oldie

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 17:16

I cannot see any dilemma here. 

 

I wasn´t talking about driver vs driver, (I am not interested in driver vs driver, I don´t compare them, I simply talk about their performances because they are the Ferrari drivers), I was talking about driver vs Ferrari. If I read, from the very beginning (from the very beginning, not three days ago), that Ferrari is something like pure evilness, yes, pure evilness, that everything they do is wrong while everything one driver does is right, without any evidence to support what is said, why should I like what I am reading? Why should I like to read that someone insults a member of my favorite team? in the heat of the moment? yeah, sure (anyway, should I like insults in the heat of the moment?), I know what I am talking about, do you know what I am talking about? maybe you should know before saying "But if your cool doen't keep after three days then I don't know what to say"... Three days? yeah, sure

 

I don't know if you read my notion at the very end (I edited my text and added it, my bad) it wasn't aimed at you. I quoted you because what you wrote made me write (aka "provoked"). :)

If you took it as some personal insult, then I am sorry. It never was meant to be that way.

 

And I must say about that heat of the moment thing that I was just trying to give some leash, as there are young people here who might not be able to control their flow of mind that well.

I really don't understand why so angry about it. :wave:



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#100 kha7577

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 17:25

The difference is that Alonso was able to complete his "RIP" lap, whereas Raikkonen's got destroyed by yellow flag.

 

Not this again! The yellow flag did not affect kimi's lap! so many excuses when kimi gets beaten!