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Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part III


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#1151 Suntrek

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:56

Suntrek, this thread is called "ALonso vs Kimi", What is exactly what you don't understand?

I understand it.

 

I'm just a bit baffled of the fericocity going on here.  Both Kimi and Alonso fans shoud focus more on car than driver.



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#1152 as65p

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:57

Yes it seems overly simplistic to believe Räikkönen needs the car to be perfect for his style for him to excel, or more to the point that Alonso will somehow cope better with any handling problem. For all I know Räikkönen wants responsive front end that turns in well to be somewhat happy, but for some reason Ferrari has troubles providing him with one.

 

You still think that's impossible?

 

Actually the reports that both Ferrari and Lotus have allegedly gone through significant setup changes between FP3 and qualifying and for Räikkönen to qualify pretty well after that speaks volumes about the car not needing to suit his every whim, just a couple. The car can hardly be perfect after major setup change with essentially no opportunity to fine tune it.

 

What are you trying to say there? I don't get it.



#1153 arnoldpredator

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 14:55

Because they are driving the same dog of a car. I can't understand the logic that we shouldn't make a comparison because the car is bad. Does that mean Heikki v Lewis in 2009 was irrelevant? Alonso v Marques? Raikkonen v Massa 2009?

 

We waited years to have great drivers in the same team and now we've got it. Regardless of the competitiveness of the package in relation to others they have the same equipment. I'm personally loving it because all those years of speculation have come to this point.

 

Totally agree with that. Stop rumours, let's see what their performance is on the track. We have the best chance to compare two great drivers and we are going to do it.

I understand it.

 

I'm just a bit baffled of the fericocity going on here.  Both Kimi and Alonso fans shoud focus more on car than driver.

 

Why don't you let the fans focus on whatever they want?



#1154 Hanzo

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:15

I've been trying to explain this for years what difference a car makes to the drivers 'feel'. Simply look at how many points Raikkonen has scored in the Lotus compared to this year in the Ferrari. The guy was so consistent, by far the most consistent reliable safe driver that could also drive very very fast. Now he's all over the shop and not scoring. This is not about Kimi versus Fernando this is about Kimi versus that Ferrari. 

 

I agree, except for your last phrase. Of course this is about Kimi vs. Fernando, like the rest of the drivers racing in the same team.  Kimi was at Ferrari before, winning in 2007.

What about 2008?   Was it Kimi vs. Massa or Kimi vs. Ferrari? 

 

It is too easy to praise the driver when he wins and blame the car when he gets beaten by his team mate...


Edited by Hanzo, 11 June 2014 - 15:17.


#1155 Suntrek

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:21

 

Why don't you let the fans focus on whatever they want?

 Course they can.

 

My point being being - A bit of focusing in this sandthrowing in kindergarten thread MIGHT take a way focus from what matters.

 

Namely the Ferrari car built for the 2014 challenge. And that is focus - for both drivers. So far it hasn't delivered for either driver's exptations.

 

That said - fans of either driver can of course focus on whatever they want. But a good idea is always to be informed. Ferrari drivers  both drive a tractor .


Edited by Suntrek, 11 June 2014 - 15:34.


#1156 kosmos

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:27

 Course they can.

 

My point being being - A bit of focusing in this sandthrowing in kindergarten thread MIGHT take a way focus from what matters.

 

Namely the Ferrari car built for the 2014 challenge. And that is focus - for both drivers.

 

That said - fans of either driver can of course focus on whatever they want. But a good idea is always to be informed. They both drive a tractor .

 

 

There is another topic to talk about the tractor, this topic is to talk about the performance of the tractor drivers :p



#1157 boldhakka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:36

What are you trying to say there? I don't get it.

 

I think, and this is just my interpretation, that he's saying that there are only two big things that Kimi needs to be just right (I guess tyre temp and lack of understeer). Beyond that he's able to drive around most/all other car balance issues. 

 

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and is not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others). 


Edited by boldhakka, 11 June 2014 - 15:37.


#1158 Suntrek

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 15:41

There is another topic to talk about the tractor, this topic is to talk about the performance of the tractor drivers :p

Fair enough, but its a bit difficult to separate them. :)  As I pointed out before, Alonso seems to be slightly better than Kimi in tractor performance.



#1159 Lone

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:01

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and is not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others).


Agree about the understeer but not the oversteer. Did you watch him drive in Nascar, he can handle oversteer.

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#1160 BJHF1

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:06

I think, and this is just my interpretation, that he's saying that there are only two big things that Kimi needs to be just right (I guess tyre temp and lack of understeer). Beyond that he's able to drive around most/all other car balance issues. 

 

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and i not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others). 

 

I personally think he likes a car with a sharp front end and can enjoy/handle oversteer just fine, but only if it is predictable/linear (with smooth breakaway) in nature. This is why I feel he was so good in his Mclaren years - the natural program (of vehicle dynamics) built into his brain is so good, and the cars sharp front end and stable rear of those years really worked to his favor. 

 

As soon as the oversteer and balance becomes inconsistant and unpredictable (as with the Ferrari's of the past couple of years), he doesn't have quite the reactive ability of Alonso (who I think is more physically fit in most areas) to keep on top of the minute corrections required to extract those last couple of tenths...at all times. To me, Alonso is about as gifted as they come in that area, and is a rare blend of such a high level of predictive and reactive ability. 

 

Just my opinion of course - but I just wanted to comment since I find such nuances to be an interesting subject.


Edited by BJHF1, 11 June 2014 - 16:14.


#1161 sheepgobba

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:08

Fernando's and Kimi's children probably have a much higher chance of winning the championship in 2040 than what their fathers do right now or in the upcoming future. 



#1162 Oho

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:09

 

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and is not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others). 

 

Because of the Canada spins? Those were not your typical car balance issues but power delivery induced. He broke longitudinal traction with throttle.



#1163 Vesuvius

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:14

I think, and this is just my interpretation, that he's saying that there are only two big things that Kimi needs to be just right (I guess tyre temp and lack of understeer). Beyond that he's able to drive around most/all other car balance issues. 

 

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and is not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others). 

Kimi hates understeer but he likes and can handle oversteer so much that even at Ferrari they were surprised about this, there was a story about it back in 2007.



#1164 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:18

I understand it.
 
I'm just a bit baffled of the fericocity going on here.  Both Kimi and Alonso fans shoud focus more on car than driver.

There's a fair few people on both sides that aren't Ferrari fans and are more concerned with their driver winning this battle. Which is understandable.

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 June 2014 - 16:28.


#1165 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:19

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and is not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others).

Why? Just because he's on a rather rough patch of his career? This can be for multiple reasons, but oversteer certainly seems not one of them. There's no need to badmouth everything about Räikkönen now.

As for unpredictability: every driver hates that and it has nothing to do with preferring over- or understeer, that's just annoying and bad car behaviour. It's more indicative which predictable car behaviour a driver would choose if he could. It's widely acknowledged that Hamilton and Räikkönen are on the extreme oversteer scale, Kimi's driving style was often compared to Schumacher's, who liked to set-up his cars the way others described it almost undriveable.

Edited by Jovanotti, 11 June 2014 - 16:21.


#1166 boldhakka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:21

See this note from 2008:

 

http://www.formula1....08/802/598.html

 

 


Up until September's Italian Grand Prix, Ferrari were struggling with poor traction, caused primarily by the car's inability to warm its tyres (chiefly the rears) at a quick enough rate, especially in cool or wet conditions. This put the F2008 at a disadvantage in terms of acceleration, especially when compared with McLaren's MP4-23. At the recent Singapore race, however, the team seemed to have gone a long way towards solving the issue by adopting a softer, more progressive set-up for the rear suspension's third horizontal damper and its two torsion bars (see yellow arrow and inset). The third damper consists of a tungsten/wolfram (heavy metal) cylinder that rotates inside an outer casing, dissipating the inertia generated by the track's bumpy surface and kerbs. Better set-up of this device, together with an accurate choice of torsion bars, has dramatically improved the behaviour of the car, especially at the rear. In Japan, this was of particular help to Kimi Raikkonen, who prefers a very stable rear end in his set-up. (Felipe Massa focuses more on the car's front end.)

 

 

It could be inaccurate though. 


Edited by boldhakka, 11 June 2014 - 16:22.


#1167 boldhakka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:24

Why? Just because he's on a rather rough patch of his career? This can be for multiple reasons, but oversteer certainly seems not one of them. There's no need to badmouth everything about Räikkönen now.

 

No, I'm taking into account his Lotus years as well. If he was/is able to handle oversteer so well, he should have been able to tune in a sharper front end and let the rear loosen a bit. But he was never able to do that. 


Edited by boldhakka, 11 June 2014 - 16:25.


#1168 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:29

I think, and this is just my interpretation, that he's saying that there are only two big things that Kimi needs to be just right (I guess tyre temp and lack of understeer). Beyond that he's able to drive around most/all other car balance issues.

Personally, I used to think Kimi loved oversteer. Now it's clear to me that he just hates understeer and is not particularly good at handling oversteer either (relative to others).

Understeer and oversteer aren't necessarily the same in every instance. There's varying degrees of it and it can be caused by many different things and it can manifest itself in different ways. Understeer on entry is different than understeer on exit. Or mid-corner. Likewise with oversteer.

I think people oversimplify this notion of 'driver X likes oversteer' or 'driver Y doesn't like understeer'. Pretty sure most drivers would prefer a neutral car, but its rare that a car handles perfectly, so there is always somewhere that the car is acting up. The trick is to be immediately aware of it and do what you can to get around that problem. You can play with setup til the end of time, but conditions change, track surface changes and you'll never really have things perfect. I think this is where guys like Lewis and Fernando have the edge on the rest of the field. They seem to be able to deal with this stuff on another level while it tends to affect most other drivers more, even talented ones.

Edited by Seanspeed, 11 June 2014 - 16:29.


#1169 boldhakka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:34

While true, there are broad overarching "styles" that permeate setup choices for most drivers. Alonso and Lewis being potential exceptions to this. Montoya vs. Raikkonen was very illustrative of this difference in styles. 



#1170 boldhakka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:42

Nice post from another thread that I thought may be relevant here:

 

Huub Rothengatter (ex-F1driver and former manager of Jos Verstappen) once told me a nice analogy. He said that every driver has a little basket. In that basket there is speed, communication skills, straight forward intelligence, social skills and so forth. The basket is different with every driver. What is important if the basket has enough contents to bring you success, not how the contents are exactly divided.

 


#1171 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:45

No, I'm taking into account his Lotus years as well. If he was/is able to handle oversteer so well, he should have been able to tune in a sharper front end and let the rear loosen a bit. But he was never able to do that.

If I had to point at one thing to blame the struggles atm, it would be the brake-by-wire. Räikkönen brakes into the corner and tries to slide the rear with the brakes to help the car turn (that's probably where the notion of oversteer-preference comes from). While it tolerates more sliding at the rear, it nevertheless requires a certain predictability for it to be effective. The feeling with this year's system is totally different. Add a turd as the F14T that is also unstable and doesn't have smooth power delivery and probably harvesting, and this driving style doesn't work properly anymore.

Edited by Jovanotti, 11 June 2014 - 16:48.


#1172 boldhakka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 16:51

If I had to point at one thing to blame the struggles atm, it would be the brake-by-wire. Räikkönen brakes into the corner and tries to slide the rear with the brakes to help the car turn (that's probably where the notion of oversteer-preference comes from). While it tolerates more sliding at the rear, it nevertheless requires a certain predictability for it to be effective. The feeling with this year's system is totally different. Add a turd as the F14T that is also unstable and doesn't have smooth power delivery and probably harvesting, and this driving style doesn't work properly anymore.

 

Exactly. This requires a relatively predictable and stable rear. And he induces the rear sliding himself, so he doesn't particularly enjoy a nervous rear. This kinda what @BJHF1 was also getting at above. 

 

Edit: And this means, just like other drivers, he cannot afford to make the rear too loose. 

 

So between the tyre-heating issues, the understeer issues, and the nervous rear-end issues, he's a lot like (or even more sensitive than) Jenson in terms of needing a car balanced just-so to get the max out of it. 


Edited by boldhakka, 11 June 2014 - 16:59.


#1173 arnoldpredator

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:05

Fair enough, but its a bit difficult to separate them. :)  As I pointed out before, Alonso seems to be slightly better than Kimi in tractor performance.

 

Only slightly, and only in tractor performance. :rotfl:

 

I guess you care more than you told us about this battle, and hiding that behind "focus on the car, forget this battle" is a trap we won't fall in. :lol:



#1174 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:20

So between the tyre-heating issues, the understeer issues, and the nervous rear-end issues, he's a lot like (or even more sensitive than) Jenson in terms of needing a car balanced just-so to get the max out of it.

I think there's a vast difference between Kimi's pointy front-end/predictable rear and induced oversteer and Jenson's completely neutral approach and an overall balanced car. They are both sensitive, but in a different way, and of course my humble opinion is that Kimi is generally clearly faster ;)

This video depicts the differences really well imo:
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=TOhgI1hQA68

#1175 Astro

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:36

If I had to point at one thing to blame the struggles atm, it would be the brake-by-wire. Räikkönen brakes into the corner and tries to slide the rear with the brakes to help the car turn (that's probably where the notion of oversteer-preference comes from). While it tolerates more sliding at the rear, it nevertheless requires a certain predictability for it to be effective. The feeling with this year's system is totally different. Add a turd as the F14T that is also unstable and doesn't have smooth power delivery and probably harvesting, and this driving style doesn't work properly anymore.

 

I am trying to picture what you are saying, but I can't see how sliding the rear would be good under any circumstance.

 

EDIT: OK. I see now. Thanks for the video. I don't think Martin Brundle means Schumacher and Raikkonen want to cause the slide in order to turn. As he says, "they are prepared to accept the back end sliding around"... in order to have the nose well stuck to the ground and responsive.


Edited by Astro, 11 June 2014 - 17:48.


#1176 Hanzo

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:36

No, I'm taking into account his Lotus years as well. If he was/is able to handle oversteer so well, he should have been able to tune in a sharper front end and let the rear loosen a bit. But he was never able to do that. 

 

I still find that comparison not very appropriate...   I don't understand why everybody is ignoring the blowing diffuser's influence.



#1177 f1RacingForever

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:36

Calling the F 2014 a tractor is too kind. More like a turtle on wheels.



#1178 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 17:50

I am trying to picture what you are saying, but I can't see how sliding the rear would be good under any circumstance.

You rotate the car not only by turning the front in, but also by moving the rear (imagine the car turning on a turntable: both front and rear change position). You can brake into the corner, turn the car quicker and step on the gas earlier. Actually it's exactly the way I drive in driving simulator games, and if the car can take it it's incredibly fast.

#1179 Astro

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 18:22

You rotate the car not only by turning the front in, but also by moving the rear (imagine the car turning on a turntable: both front and rear change position). You can brake into the corner, turn the car quicker and step on the gas earlier. Actually it's exactly the way I drive in driving simulator games, and if the car can take it it's incredibly fast.

 

I think you would lose too much momentum. As I understand, the tire slides because it losses the grip to the surface, so when you hit the gas the tire has to find the grip again. Even if you try to "coast" (?) instead of giving it gas, the rears would slow down the car until it finds the grip again. As an example, it is like when you try to slide with the bike. You have to get to a sufficient speed and then brake hard enough to make the rear come out (slide). Then, after releasing the brake, the rear picks up the grip again and the bike keeps rolling, but at a considerable less speed (just an exaggerate example to explain what I am trying to say).

 

Then again, maybe not. Schumacher and Raikkonen seem to like a sliding rear, and they are not precisely slow  :lol: . But I still can't see how that can work as a positive thing.



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#1180 Menace

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 19:33

Only slightly, and only in tractor performance. :rotfl:

 

I guess you care more than you told us about this battle, and hiding that behind "focus on the car, forget this battle" is a trap we won't fall in. :lol:

 

Suntrek is an Alonso fan... :drunk:



#1181 Jovanotti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 19:58

I think you would lose too much momentum. As I understand, the tire slides because it losses the grip to the surface, so when you hit the gas the tire has to find the grip again. Even if you try to "coast" (?) instead of giving it gas, the rears would slow down the car until it finds the grip again. As an example, it is like when you try to slide with the bike. You have to get to a sufficient speed and then brake hard enough to make the rear come out (slide). Then, after releasing the brake, the rear picks up the grip again and the bike keeps rolling, but at a considerable less speed (just an exaggerate example to explain what I am trying to say).

Then again, maybe not. Schumacher and Raikkonen seem to like a sliding rear, and they are not precisely slow :lol: . But I still can't see how that can work as a positive thing.

Yeah I see what you mean. I'm not a pro by any means, but I think these "slides" are 1) minimal (as not clearly visible by the naked eye) and 2) take place only at the point when the car rotation is done. Rob Wilson decribes it as "short corners", i.e. shorter rotation time and thus less lateral stress in the tyres.

Edited by Jovanotti, 11 June 2014 - 20:10.


#1182 BJHF1

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 20:04

You rotate the car not only by turning the front in, but also by moving the rear (imagine the car turning on a turntable: both front and rear change position). You can brake into the corner, turn the car quicker and step on the gas earlier. Actually it's exactly the way I drive in driving simulator games, and if the car can take it it's incredibly fast.

 

You basically got the point, although It's somewhat hard to say how much this applies to Raikkonen in particular (without seeing telemetry) - not to mention in simulator games this technique is often quite exaggerated, and not so easy to apply in the real world with cars that are at the level of F1 in terms of speed, where mistakes have much more consequence. But in any case, the more you can get the car to rotate (while staying within the tires ideal allowable slip angle) before the apex, the quicker you can get back on the throttle, because the remainder of the corner will have a straighter trajectory and require less steering input. We are not taking about big slides like Astro might be thinking of, but more like 3 degrees (for argument sake) of yaw where the tires can still produce the neccesary longitudinal grip to push the car forward effectively

 

In my view, I think the brake by wire only compounds the problem (of making the car unpredictable to drive). To me, the real issues which are giving Kimi such a hard time lie more with the general chassis/suspension (I hate the front suspension on the FIAT) and aero sensitivity, and PU delivery it seems...things which can have a dramatic affect on the general predictability and driveability of a F1 car.

 

 

 


Edited by BJHF1, 11 June 2014 - 20:16.


#1183 fque

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 20:27

I still find that comparison not very appropriate...   I don't understand why everybody is ignoring the blowing diffuser's influence.

I don't even see why these two cars are worth comparing, 

The Lotus was a very decent and competitive car compares to this sh1tbox made by Ferrari.



#1184 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 20:27

May be, but also when you have a teammate you know you cannot keep under control, for whatever reasons, it's natural that the driver becomes nervous and starts overdriving, instead of being steadily slower and waiting his chance. At Lotus Kimi kind of trusted that he will get his chance and that Romain will be inconsistent, eventhough Romain had the speed to beat Kimi from time to time. From the outside it is difficult to say which caused what. Does Kimi make mistakes because the car is more difficult, or because he is having a hard time to try keep up with super consistent Alonso.

Kimi does not give a toss about Alonso, its quite obvious that as he always tries to explain but no-one ever listens if the car is not to his liking you will not see Kimi Raikkonen in full flow. He gets his pace and therefore consistency from a particular set of circumstances. If he can get the car to work the way he likes it he flies and he can drive in a very predictable way. Hustling the car is not his style he wants to place the car onto certain lines short-cutting corners with a nervous but controllable rear-end.. If the drivers had a way of measuring how many miles they've traveled in a grand prix Kimi would've traveled the shortest distance.



#1185 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 21:09

it's a good thing ferrari got rid of massa and replaced him with kimi. the move looks incredibly smart now

smart for them also to not look at the car, the pace is just fine. 

 

(meanwhile massa in the williams flies by alonso)



#1186 arnoldpredator

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 21:16

Suntrek is an Alonso fan... 

 

Maybe, anyway, if we like to analyze this battle we will do it.



#1187 Kimble

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 22:40

All drivers would like a neutral car but that setup is almost impossible to achieve so you have to go one side of the fence and find a predictable behaviour, that is understeer or oversteer and ideally at only one place in the curve; mid-corner when on the limit of adhesion. It's hard to get that sort of balance and you can end up with turn-in over/understeer and the same or even worse, the opposite on exit.

When they say a driver prefers X or Y, it means they are more comfortable with a breakaway in one of those directions and it's normally mid-corner. Mild understeer has it's benefits on tyre wear but too much and your missing the apex and pinching your exit. The benefit of some oversteer is, as said, you can get the car rotated mid-corner and get drive out of the corner. This is what SV achieved with the blown floor and MS was a master at on the bridgestones as the strength of the front tyres enabled his fast in and out technique.

Raikonnen's speed has been in his precision in high speed corners and short-corners as quoted above. Both of these rely on a car that will follow it's nose precisely so you can turn once for the high speed stuff without scrubbing speed and also get the nose into the corner on turn in and braking. The power-steering requirements are about feel and if too powerful an assistance then tyre feedback is lost.

I think we can assume the power steering issue is fixed and this was the new parts requested.

What remains is car balance and you can watch the onboards and see an inconsistent blend of turn-in oversteer and understeer plus exit oversteer. Underpinning all of this is what looks like some tyre operating temperature window issues as well.

So, you have a load of different and constantly changing inputs that need unpicking and understanding and then changes made that stabilise the whole set-up. There is no driving around this type of issue and being fast, you are always going to be between 80-95% as you don't have the trust to reach 100% and lean on the car until it's shown consistent behaviour.

Alonso is not solving this with ninja reactions and amazing adaptability, he's just not getting quite the same problems. This could be down to steering/throttle behaviour, his weight, familiarity with Ferrari cars over the last x years, steering ratios, etc. We can only judge the drivers when they both are happy with handling and setup and note that this is not the same thing as performance!

#1188 as65p

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 23:18

This is a great example what expectations and presumptions nurtured for decades do with the mind. If there were two nobodies driving the car exactly as KR and FA did so far, there would only be one possible conclusion we would all agree about.



#1189 kha7577

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 23:46

This is a great example what expectations and presumptions nurtured for decades do with the mind. If there were two nobodies driving the car exactly as KR and FA did so far, there would only be one possible conclusion we would all agree about.

 

Yep if new f1 viewers were seeing the races they would conclude that alonso is clearly faster than kimi.



#1190 ZZei

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 03:20

No, I'm taking into account his Lotus years as well. If he was/is able to handle oversteer so well, he should have been able to tune in a sharper front end and let the rear loosen a bit. But he was never able to do that. 

Yeah because in f1 car theres only understeer and oversteer to worry about.

 

This is a great example what expectations and presumptions nurtured for decades do with the mind. If there were two nobodies driving the car exactly as KR and FA did so far, there would only be one possible conclusion we would all agree about.

Yes, the other one has been in the team for 4 years and running while the other just came in and has gained webbers luck as the oldest driver of the grid. The points tally is really flattering alonso, there has been I think 2 weekends where he has been clearly faster than Kimi.



#1191 kosmos

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:04

Found this on twitter, other teammates comparisons in that twitter in case someone cares.

 

F1Matrix @f1matrix_it  ·  11h

#TestaaTesta fra compagni di squadra @InsideFerrari @alo_oficial vs kimi raikkonen

 

bp3uuyjceaaxcmg.pngla3aqg8.png

 


Edited by kosmos, 12 June 2014 - 04:04.


#1192 Menace

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:51

Maybe, anyway, if we like to analyze this battle we will do it.

:drunk:



#1193 Jovanotti

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 07:29

This is a great example what expectations and presumptions nurtured for decades do with the mind. If there were two nobodies driving the car exactly as KR and FA did so far, there would only be one possible conclusion we would all agree about.

People are always being assessed, judged and given more time to deliver because they showed outstanding qualities in the (not too distant) past. Big news.



#1194 Juan Kerr

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:16

I agree, except for your last phrase. Of course this is about Kimi vs. Fernando, like the rest of the drivers racing in the same team.  Kimi was at Ferrari before, winning in 2007.

What about 2008?   Was it Kimi vs. Massa or Kimi vs. Ferrari? 

 

It is too easy to praise the driver when he wins and blame the car when he gets beaten by his team mate...

Yes it is and I agree with you but also nothing has happened to Kimi, he hasn't suddenly forgotten how to drive and the issue is definitely to do with the car its performance and setup. It is very often used, when they win its the driver when they don't its the car, they use it all the time as an excuse but there must be a sceanrio that it is appropriate too otherwise the phrase wouldn't carry any value to enable it be misused. In this case the term is appropriate, the issue is the car.



#1195 arnoldpredator

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:31

All drivers would like a neutral car but that setup is almost impossible to achieve so you have to go one side of the fence and find a predictable behaviour, that is understeer or oversteer and ideally at only one place in the curve; mid-corner when on the limit of adhesion. It's hard to get that sort of balance and you can end up with turn-in over/understeer and the same or even worse, the opposite on exit.

When they say a driver prefers X or Y, it means they are more comfortable with a breakaway in one of those directions and it's normally mid-corner. Mild understeer has it's benefits on tyre wear but too much and your missing the apex and pinching your exit. The benefit of some oversteer is, as said, you can get the car rotated mid-corner and get drive out of the corner. This is what SV achieved with the blown floor and MS was a master at on the bridgestones as the strength of the front tyres enabled his fast in and out technique.

Raikonnen's speed has been in his precision in high speed corners and short-corners as quoted above. Both of these rely on a car that will follow it's nose precisely so you can turn once for the high speed stuff without scrubbing speed and also get the nose into the corner on turn in and braking. The power-steering requirements are about feel and if too powerful an assistance then tyre feedback is lost.

I think we can assume the power steering issue is fixed and this was the new parts requested.

What remains is car balance and you can watch the onboards and see an inconsistent blend of turn-in oversteer and understeer plus exit oversteer. Underpinning all of this is what looks like some tyre operating temperature window issues as well.

So, you have a load of different and constantly changing inputs that need unpicking and understanding and then changes made that stabilise the whole set-up. There is no driving around this type of issue and being fast, you are always going to be between 80-95% as you don't have the trust to reach 100% and lean on the car until it's shown consistent behaviour.

Alonso is not solving this with ninja reactions and amazing adaptability, he's just not getting quite the same problems. This could be down to steering/throttle behaviour, his weight, familiarity with Ferrari cars over the last x years, steering ratios, etc. We can only judge the drivers when they both are happy with handling and setup and note that this is not the same thing as performance!

 

Apparently you have more information than James Allison.

 

"The problems Kimi has with the car under braking, downshifting, are the same as Fernando,"

 

"I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say he is struggling more than Fernando," said Allison ahead of the Canadian GP

 

"They both have similar feedback with the car,

 

 

"He's just going a little slower than Fernando at the moment, but that gap is closing as the year progresses."

 

http://www1.skysport...fernando-alonso


Edited by arnoldpredator, 12 June 2014 - 08:31.


#1196 denthierry

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:45

Yep if new f1 viewers were seeing the races they would conclude that alonso is clearly faster than kimi.

And Rosberg by far the best driver of his generation...


Edited by denthierry, 12 June 2014 - 08:47.


#1197 Fontainebleau

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:11

 

Found this on twitter, other teammates comparisons in that twitter in case someone cares.

 

F1Matrix @f1matrix_it  ·  11h

#TestaaTesta fra compagni di squadra @InsideFerrari @alo_oficial vs kimi raikkonen

 

bp3uuyjceaaxcmg.pngla3aqg8.png

 

 

Kosmos, what does "H2H race" means?



#1198 Lights

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:24

I guess it means head-to-head as in, who was classified higher when both drivers finished.



#1199 SophieB

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:27

I guess it means head-to-head as in, who was classified higher when both drivers finished.


Thanks, I'd been wondering the same as Fontainebleau.

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#1200 Fontainebleau

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:27

Kimi does not give a toss about Alonso, its quite obvious that as he always tries to explain but no-one ever listens if the car is not to his liking you will not see Kimi Raikkonen in full flow. He gets his pace and therefore consistency from a particular set of circumstances. If he can get the car to work the way he likes it he flies and he can drive in a very predictable way. Hustling the car is not his style he wants to place the car onto certain lines short-cutting corners with a nervous but controllable rear-end.. If the drivers had a way of measuring how many miles they've traveled in a grand prix Kimi would've traveled the shortest distance.

 

With all due respect, but this is nonsense. Of course Raikkonen cares about what Alonso is doing: he is a competitive F1 driver, not some type of aloof alien from a different planet, and in F1 the first goal is to beat your teammate.

 

Frankly, some of these descriptions make Raikkonen no favours: he does not care (and then we complain when people claim that he is demotivated), he talks but nobody listens (so is he a nobody with no leadership skills whatsoever? I so much doubt it), he cannot adapt but needs the car to adapt to himself (and why does that make him better than any other driver on that grid? I get the feeling that any of them would be the fastest with the perfect car...).

 

Raikkonen is like every other driver: he has strengths and weaknesses, which can be more or less evident depending on the car he is driving (and that is different from blaming the car for the driver's weaknesses). If you want to judge him, do so looking at the whole package - he won't come out looking bad.