3968 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part I

Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part II

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please be respectful with both drivers and their respective supporters.

Edited by kosmos, 06 July 2014 - 14:36.

[kosmos]

Part 2 is almost over and probably I will not be available when it does, so I'm going to open part 3 now.

[kimster89]

Cant wait for Canada. It seems Kimi showed up to this fight and i cant wait too see how it plays when he doesnt have any bad luck.

[toroRosso]

I don't fancy this scoreboard anymore. Rubbing it right in our faces

[Jovanotti]

Fun fact: not only are Räikkönen and Prost almost tied in number of fastest laps, but they also have exactly the same number of GP-starts after Monaco (199) - i.e. their ratio is practically identical as of now.

Edited by Jovanotti, 26 May 2014 - 09:43.

[Juan Kerr]

I don't fancy this scoreboard anymore. Rubbing it right in our faces

Well its rubbish anyway, you only have to see the last race to see how stats give the wrong impression. The funniest stat I read recently was this one: 80% of all stats are wrong.

[Kingshark]

The funniest stat I read recently was this one: 80% of all stats are wrong.

 

And that stat has an 80% chance of being wrong.

[kimister]

And that stat has an 80% chance of being wrong.

[kimister]

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-sport/c-formule-1/pid5576-videos.html?vid=1076893&sc_cmpid=SharePlayerEmbed

 

Ok I found a video clip summurizing Kimi's Monaco race. If you start watching from 1.48, it shows Magnussen incident.

 

I first believed Kimi is faulty , but in this video it seems Magnussen left a car wide space on the left and Kimi used this opportunity and dive inside. But Mag couldn't calculate this move due to his inexperience I guess since If it was Kimi or Alonso or Button , they would have evoided from this situation by realizing the other driver and would'nt turn into left afterwards. As we all know the road is so narrow in Monaco that there was no chance for Kimi to thake that hairpin like that. Anyway I just wanted to share my opinion on that and I still believe Kimi is the one slightly to blame because he was the attacking driver and took the risk; however after seeing the reply I believe Magnussen could have avoided this also.

 

 

 http://www.canalplus...tml?vid=1076893

Edited by kimister, 26 May 2014 - 10:16.

[Nacho]

Kosmos, I think you should use the same point size for the names in the scoreboard, I understand that the name Raikkonen is longer than Alonso's, but... Alonso looks even bigger, graphically talking... :-)

[kosmos]

I don't fancy this scoreboard anymore. Rubbing it right in our faces

 

Well if people don't like it, I can remove it, it will make my life easier. Is your choice guys.

[Nacho]

Sorry mate, mine was almost a joke. I like your chart and thanks for making it!

[arnoldpredator]

This is what a driver should do, as simple as that:

 

[noikeee]

I haven't been on this thread(s) for ages for the sake of my sanity, here's an update.

 

As a Kimi fan, I'm pleased with his performance the past 2 GPs even if the points scores didn't reflect it, even if luck hasn't gone his way, and even if he's looked a little rattled by the way fortune has escaped him. Think he's been thereabouts equal to Alonso since Barcelona and if he continues that form the rest of the season I will be very pleased.

 

The points gap is rather big however, it reflects the previous underwhelming performances up until then (15 points lost in Monaco would've helped though), and I don't expect him to have any chance of claiming it back. They're ultimately fighting only for 3rd in the WDC at very best - think Ricciardo and Vettel will have a better chance than the Ferrari guys there - so it's not a huge thing. May Kimi keep the luck for whenever Ferrari have a winning car.

 

Of course there's still every chance this is just a momentary good form patch, and Kimi might still go back to being nowhere near Alonso in the coming races. Who the hell knows what's representative and what isn't for predicting the future.

[photon]

Kimi was faster than Alonso both of last two weekends.  If he could get a nearly as good race engineer, equal driver status, and nearly as competent of a garage (i.e. stop having more reliability problems than anyone else on grid), then I would expect he'd beat Alonso for the rest of the season.

 

Instead, we've seen Kimi's season destroyed in only the first few races, and I think Alonso will escape to McL next season.  I say this because numerous signs indicate Ferrari have Kimi trapped for next season.

 

There was so much potential in this matchup, but Ferrari openly chose a 1st driver - 2nd driver strategy.  It's really too bad we couldn't have seen them together in a equal driver team such as Mercedes, McL, or Red Bull.

Edited by photon, 26 May 2014 - 13:00.

[Cesc]

Kimi was faster than Alonso both of last two weekends.  If he could get a nearly as good race engineer, equal driver status, and nearly as competent of a garage (i.e. stop having more reliability problems than anyone else on grid), then I would expect he'd beat Alonso for the rest of the season.

 

Instead, we've seen Kimi's season destroyed in only the first few races, and I think Alonso will escape to McL next season.  I say this because numerous signs indicate Ferrari have Kimi trapped for next season.

 

There was so much potential in this matchup, but Ferrari openly chose a 1st driver - 2nd driver strategy.  It's really too bad we couldn't have seen them together in a equal driver team such as Mercedes, McL, or Red Bull.

 

There are some statements in this thread that are being repeated again and again until one may eventualy believe them...

 

- I still can't really find a clear evidence showing that Kimi was faster than Alonso nor in Barcelona and even less in Monaco, where I think the difference in Alonso's favour was bigger. In Bcn Alonso may be faster by 1 or 2 tenths, but in Monaco the difference was bigger in my opinion, simply that Kimi did a 10 lap sprint vs. a conservative Alonso, who could reduce nearly 4 seconds in 6 or 7 laps from lap 18 or so...

 

- Equal driver status??? 1st driver and 2nd driver?? Equal driver team such as Red Bull?

 

Really?what does this mean? Is this still for the undercat thing?

[pokerkid]

As expected Kimi is not looking any better than Massa vs Alonso. Massa himself said he is not surprised so its puzzling why so many around here are. How did you expect Kimi to perform better than Massa when he was no better as team mates? Anything else was just wishful thinking. Of course the excuses are flying as they have been for the last 4 years as Alonso as usual gets no credit for his amazing driving, because some people refuse to believe he really is that good. Guess what, he is.

[noikeee]

I'm not sure I want to get into this silly argument, but whilst Massa was occasionally/rarely quicker than Alonso in qualifying, I don't remember him ever being on par with Alonso on race pace like Raikkonen has looked like the past 2 races (with possible exception of Germany 2010 - 1 race in 4 years?), and in this era race pace is much more important than qualifying.

 

Points-wise sure, it looks just as one-sided as it did vs Massa, but I don't think points are very representative at this stage.

[Radion]

As expected Kimi is not looking any better than Massa vs Alonso. Massa himself said he is not surprised so its puzzling why so many around here are. How did you expect Kimi to perform better than Massa when he was no better as team mates? Anything else was just wishful thinking. Of course the excuses are flying as they have been for the last 4 years as Alonso as usual gets no credit for his amazing driving, because some people refuse to believe he really is that good. Guess what, he is.

Because drivers evolve. What happened five/six years ago isn't that representive for the present, do you agree? 

 

There are some statements in this thread that are being repeated again and again until one may eventualy believe them...

 

- I still can't really find a clear evidence showing that Kimi was faster than Alonso nor in Barcelona and even less in Monaco, where I think the difference in Alonso's favour was bigger. In Bcn Alonso may be faster by 1 or 2 tenths, but in Monaco the difference was bigger in my opinion, simply that Kimi did a 10 lap sprint vs. a conservative Alonso, who could reduce nearly 4 seconds in 6 or 7 laps from lap 18 or so...

 

- Equal driver status??? 1st driver and 2nd driver?? Equal driver team such as Red Bull?

 

Really?what does this mean? Is this still for the undercat thing?

Doesn't change the fact that Kimi was ahead of alonso in monaco. Track position is key. Alonso could have closed the gap to 0.0034 sec. I doubt he could have overtaken him. 

And speculation that he would undercut him by staying out one lap longer is just that, speculation. Kimi's not dumb, he would have responded in just staying out longer.

[Cesc]

Doesn't change the fact that Kimi was ahead of alonso in monaco. Track position is key. Alonso could have closed the gap to 0.0034 sec. I doubt he could have overtaken him. 

And speculation that he would undercut him by staying out one lap longer is just that, speculation. Kimi's not dumb, he would have responded in just staying out longer.

 

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Kimi was faster.  That was the discussion.

 

Specially if you think that apparently, after the performance from Barcelona and Monaco some people think that now Kimi can beat Alonso for the rest of the season when, in fact, I don't see too many changes in their relative performance since the start of the season.

Edited by Cesc, 26 May 2014 - 14:04.

[Radion]

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Kimi was faster.  That was the discussion.

 

Specially if you think that apparently, after the performance from Barcelona and Monaco some people think that now Kimi can beat Alonso for the rest of the season when, in fact, I don't see too many changes in their relative performance since the start of the season.

I agree. 

[artista]

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Kimi was faster.  That was the discussion.

 

Specially if you think that apparently, after the performance from Barcelona and Monaco some people think that now Kimi can beat Alonso for the rest of the season when, in fact, I don't see too many changes in their relative performance since the start of the season.

And it doesn't mean Alonso was faster

[blacky]

Kimi's not dumb, he would have responded in just staying out longer.

 

For sure he is not a dumb, but when tyres are gone, tyres are gone. And obviously it is easier to stay out longer if you are behind and can react to the man in front.

 

However, it would be very interesting what would have happened if there was no SC and the three were driving in a train until pitstops What Ferrari would have done then?  This situation would have been very tricky for Sucderia no to lose the podium.

[Oho]

For sure he is not a dumb, but when tyres are gone, tyres are gone. And obviously it is easier to stay out longer if you are behind and can react to the man in front.

 

However, it would be very interesting what would have happened if there was no SC and the three were driving in a train until pitstops What Ferrari would have done then?  This situation would have been very tricky for Sucderia no to lose the podium..

 

 

The odds are they would have favored Alonso much like in Spain which in part may explain Räikkönen trying build a gap.

[mardmarium]

I don´t know why people draw any conclusions while extrapolating from past to present, different time, different circumstances. It doesn´t make sense when people talk about Raikkonen- Massa in 2008. It doesn´t make sense when people talk about Alonso-Hamilton in 2007.

 

Who was better yesterday? No idea, both of them did a really good job. Raikkonen did a really good start, pushed hard; he did what he had to do. Alonso did what he had to do as well, he wasn´t behind Raikkonen because he did something wrong and I don´t know who was faster. Obviously Raikkonen wasn´t faster because Alonso was closing the gap and it´s impossible to close the gap if you are slower, so the "saving tyres" theory makes sense. But if both of them had followed the same tactics, who would be faster? I don´t know, I don´t like the "if field". 

 

Raikkonen is improving and Ferrari surely has noticed. Time ago I said that if I were a F1 driver, probably the last driver I would want to have as teammate would be Alonso, because he is relentless. Raikkonen being a considerable amount of points behind Alonso doesn´t necessarily mean that Raikkonen isn´t doing a good job. Massa was terribly inconsistent; he had all kind of problems during the race.

 

Yesterday I read, sorry because I don´t remember the forumer, that F1 isn´t based on talent, that it´s based on results. Sorry but I cannot agree with this, F1 is based on talent, engineers talent, designers talent, drivers talent…top teams have the money and they want the talent, they need the talent and pay for it. They don´t pay for results because they cannot know the future, they invest in talent because talent can bring results. If they think that someone is really talented, that someone can be an asset, they surely think the results will come. Top drivers are in top teams for something, their talent. 

 

 

Well if people don't like it, I can remove it, it will make my life easier. Is your choice guys.

 

 

You have done a great job Kosmos. And this Please be respectful with both drivers and their respective supporters is simply 

[Skinnyguy]

And it doesn't mean Alonso was faster

Silly you, he always is.

-Kimi behind him very close while both in a train: Alonso is faster, he's just held up in a train and that allows Kimi to stay close. (Bahrain)

- Alonso behind Kimi very close while both in a train: Alonso is faster, Raikkonen is holding him up (Spain, stint 1).

- Alonso pushes harder and goes faster than Kimi to close the gap to him, but melts his tyres and has to pit early: Alonso was faster. (Spain, stint 2)

- Kimi pushes harder and goes faster than Alonso to open a gap to him, but melts his tyres and would have had to pit early: Alonso was faster and was biding his time. (yesterday, stint 1).

Great mental gymnastics here! Thing is, Fernando and Kimi have been very close all the time except for Australia and China, where Alonso was clearly superior. Alonso is doing a better job overall, and deserves to be ahead, but certainly not by this margin.

All the Massa crap is borderline trolling for anyone that has bothered following the races, and also the previous years. Let's remember that in 2012 and 2013 Kimi and Felipe drove cars closely matched in performance. Have a look at what they achieved in that time.

[RockyRaccoon68]

Kimi, in general, has been much much closer to Alonso in race pace than Massa ever was.  In most races there has been little between them when in clean air.

 

I would also add that I don't think Alonso is driving as well as he did back in 2011/2012.

[kosmos]

Nobody is going to say it, so I will, kudos to Fernando for bringing the car home with the brake issues he has, specially in monaco where a small mistake can be a DNF.

[pokerkid]

Because drivers evolve. What happened five/six years ago isn't that representive for the present, do you agree? 

 

 

They evolve to a certain point. Nobody will seriously believe that Kimi at 34 is better than he was in 2008, the era when he was touted the fastest man in F1.

[artista]

Silly you, he always is.

...

You're right. I seem to never learn.

[pokerkid]

Kimi, in general, has been much much closer to Alonso in race pace than Massa ever was.  In most races there has been little between them when in clean air.

 

I would also add that I don't think Alonso is driving as well as he did back in 2011/2012.

 

Is that really true? They were close in Spain, but where else? Monaco is hard to tell because of them both being in a train and Kimi's race being ruined.

[Skinnyguy]

They evolve to a certain point. Nobody will seriously believe that Kimi at 34 is better than he was in 2008, the era when he was touted the fastest man in F1.

Kimi considered the fastest man in F1 in 2008, man, you know a lot about the series. Tell me more, please!

[currupipi]

I don´t know why people draw any conclusions while extrapolating from past to present, different time, different circumstances. It doesn´t make sense when people talk about Raikkonen- Massa in 2008. It doesn´t make sense when people talk about Alonso-Hamilton in 2007.
 
Who was better yesterday? No idea, both of them did a really good job. Raikkonen did a really good start, pushed hard; he did what he had to do. Alonso did what he had to do as well, he wasn´t behind Raikkonen because he did something wrong and I don´t know who was faster. Obviously Raikkonen wasn´t faster because Alonso was closing the gap and it´s impossible to close the gap if you are slower, so the "saving tyres" theory makes sense. But if both of them had followed the same tactics, who would be faster? I don´t know, I don´t like the "if field". 
 
Raikkonen is improving and Ferrari surely has noticed. Time ago I said that if I were a F1 driver, probably the last driver I would want to have as teammate would be Alonso, because he is relentless. Raikkonen being a considerable amount of points behind Alonso doesn´t necessarily mean that Raikkonen isn´t doing a good job. Massa was terribly inconsistent; he had all kind of problems during the race.
 
Yesterday I read, sorry because I don´t remember the forumer, that F1 isn´t based on talent, that it´s based on results. Sorry but I cannot agree with this, F1 is based on talent, engineers talent, designers talent, drivers talent…top teams have the money and they want the talent, they need the talent and pay for it. They don´t pay for results because they cannot know the future, they invest in talent because talent can bring results. If they think that someone is really talented, that someone can be an asset, they surely think the results will come. Top drivers are in top teams for something, their talent. 
 
 

 
 
You have done a great job Kosmos. And this Please be respectful with both drivers and their respective supporters is simply 

I was the one talking of results not talent, evidently i didnt do a good job of explaining myself as i wasnt able to get the point i was trying to make properly to you, what i was trying to say is that at a certain level where talent is a given and in the case of alonso and kimi i think everyone will agree that they are very talented some are able to produce better results ,

[Radion]

Kimi considered the fastest man in F1 in 2008, man, you know a lot about the series. Tell me more, please!

At least at the beginning of the year he was considered the fastest, wasn't he? 

[mardmarium]

@currupipi, my mistake then. I didn´t remember very well and should have read your post again before writing anything.

[Balnazzard]

Is that really true? They were close in Spain, but where else? Monaco is hard to tell because of them both being in a train and Kimi's race being ruined.

I would say in Bahrain as well...sure you can say all you want about Alonso's problems in quali, but overall they seemed to very close on that race as well...and that was with damaged chassis that Kimi raced. In Malaysia Kimi's race was already ruined right at the beginning by Magnussen, so that leaves Austarlia and China where Alonso was clearly better..so overall I would say the huge gap in points really doesnt tell the whole truth. For sure Alonso has done great job more or less every weekend, not denying that, but Kimi has overall suffered much more misfortune so far.

[Hanzo]

I don't mind saying it again: very good job from Ferrari during pit stops. Both did it in the same lap and ALO did not lose any place despite having to pit after Kimi. I know the cool thing seems to be to talk crap about Ferrari, about how they are screwing one driver, how the team is full of rookies, etc.., but hey.

[mardmarium]

Nobody is going to say it, so I will, kudos to Fernando for bringing the car home with the brake issues he has, specially in monaco where a small mistake can be a DNF.

 

Ferrari knows what Alonso did.

[artista]

Nobody is going to say it, so I will, kudos to Fernando for bringing the car home with the brake issues he has, specially in monaco where a small mistake can be a DNF.

Be careful, in the TV interview, Alonso said the brakes were failing because they were overheating. By the standards in this thread, that would mean Alonso can't really adapt to the conditions since he wasn't able to keep his brakes at the right temperature

[RubalSher]

[kimister]

Chris come back !! 

 

[Kimble]

At this point I think all you can say is that on the weekends where Kimi is more comfortable with the car he is on a par with Alonso speed wise.   He has been very unlucky so far but I'm sure that will change.   If/when Ferrari and Kimi get a car sorted for him then I think it will be quite a close run thing and tensions will arise.

 

In some ways the first half of this season is a write-off for performance comparisons and I mean across the board (all drivers).  Until the teams get a bit of development and reliability sorted it's all a bit random.

[MikeV1987]

Part 3 already? lol

[bub]

Gutted for kimi, that could/should have been a good result.

[kryziuotis]

Great mental gymnastics here! Thing is, Fernando and Kimi have been very close all the time except for Australia and China, where Alonso was clearly superior. Alonso is doing a better job overall, and deserves to be ahead, but certainly not by this margin.

In fact it's you doing mental gymnastics there. You just handpicked a few stints where we can't say for sure who was faster. But people say that Alonso was faster based on the whole race and not on a few selected stints. Lets analyze the other stints during those races - who was faster there? So looking at the whole picture we have a few inconclusive stints plus a lot of stints where Alonso was clearly faster. So you can rightfully conclude that Alonso was faster overall.

[MikeV1987]

imo, Podium was possible for him but I think Dan would have been all over him and probably would have got him in one of the pit stops.

[Hanzo]

Why so much interest after every race to prove which driver was faster? At the end of the day it is always about the points. It is always the first reference when comparing team mates from past seasons or from other teams. Points.

I admit Kimi is having a lot of incidents so far, but plenty of races to go, Alonso will have soon a retirement or he will be beaten. And when that happens, bad luck and time to think about the next race. I would not spend a single minute trying to convince people that he looked faster or slower...

Edited by Hanzo, 26 May 2014 - 18:38.

[kha7577]

Alonso is better overall than Kimi right now thats for sure, whether kimi can overcome that remains to be seen

[Skinnyguy]

In fact it's you doing mental gymnastics there. You just handpicked a few stints where we can't say for sure who was faster.

Think you're quite lost mate. None of that was my thinking, and I didn't even say what I think about these events. I'm merely reflecting that, no matter what happens, we have to hear about Alonso being faster, even when the same situation repeats with the roles reversed.

And irocanilly, the rest of your post is a very good example of that. Next time make sure you understand what you're quoting before replying with a "but, but... Alonso is faster", will save you some time and face. Replying to an analysis I didn't even make was pretty lame. If you want to check my actual views on these events, go check the respective weekend threads.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 26 May 2014 - 19:54.

[chessycat]

LAP                    1    2    3     4      5      6      7      8      9     10     11    12    13    14    15    16     17    18    19    20    21    22     23    24  25SC 

 

RAI-RIC GAP   SC SC SC  0,6    0,9  1,2   2,5   3,2   3,7   4,2    3,7   2,8   3,7   3,9   4,0   3,5    2,8   2,5   2,4   2,2   2,1   1,1    0,7   0,5   1,0 

 

RIC-ALO GAP                    1,3    1,8   2,4   2,0   2,2   2,4   2,5    2,4   3,1   2,5   2,6   2,9   3,4    3,7   3,6   3,7   3,5   3,5   3,8   3,5    3,2   2,2  

 

RAI-ALO GAP                    1,9    2,7   3,6   4,5   5,4   6,1   6,7    6,1   5,9   6,2   6,5   6,9   6,9    6,5   6,1   6,1   5,7   5,6   4,9   4,2    3,7   3,2

 

RAI-ALO LAP GAP                     0,8   0,9   0,9   0,9   0,7   0,6   -0,6  -0,2   0,3   0,3   0,4   0,0   -0,4  -0,4  0,0  -0,4  -0,1  -0,7  -0,7  -0,5 - 0,5