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Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part III


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#2451 arnoldpredator

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:56

I wasn't talking about any extra advantage  :well:.  I was making a logical point to explain why Alonso and his team solve their problems really fast! It was actually a compliment about the way Alonso and his team work that I made there!!!!!

And who told you that I don't accept Kimi's weaknesses? Discussing about problems doesn't automaticaly means that I believe he is perfect and everyone else is to  blame! 

 

You were using that excuse to justify their points difference. Ricciardo has shown that your theory is just an irrelevant factor that can be ignored. A good driver can adapt to new regulations, new car, new team quite quickly and beat his teammate. That is what Ricciardo has shown this year.

 

If you accepted his weanesses you wouldn't come here with that theory.

It's clear that FA is doing a better job, but it is a pointless comparison between the two drivers at this stage.

 

How can you compare a driver who says I did "71 qualifying laps" to a driver who says he struggles to put one decent lap together.

 

So when they are in different teams we can say Kimi is the most talented driver in the history of the universe, he has the best raw speed, his qualifying skills are amazing. Alonso is just a hardworker who qualifyies slow and so on.

 

Now they are in the same team, I thought that finally we could compare their performance since they are driving the same car but not, apparently we still have to wait, I don't know how many months more, maybe  until your favorite driver is faster than Alonso? righ?, if that happens. That day you will come here and you will tell us "I told you" "I knew, Kimi is better than ALonso"....

 

The fact Alonso was able to drive 71 qualifying laps with that horrible car shows how good he is, and how much better he is than Kimi.

 

I don't remember Alonso in any team, any year saying "The car does not suit my driving style". Maybe I am wrong, but I think he has never used that excuse.


Edited by arnoldpredator, 23 June 2014 - 13:01.


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#2452 Alexandros

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:02

Austrian GP

 

*P for pitstop

 

Lap times from car #7
Lap - Time
7 - 1:15.814
8 - 1:15.828
9 - 1:15.832
10 - 1:15.777

11 - 1:15.361
12 - 1:15.428
13 - 1:15.660

14 - 1:15.840
15P - 1:20.657
16 - 1:33.355
17 - 1:15.531
18 - 1:15.252
19 - 1:14.883

lap times from car #14
lap - time
7 - 1:15.002
8 - 1:14.872
9 - 1:15.024
10 - 1:14.998
11 - 1:15.097
12 - 1:15.267
13 - 1:15.530

14P - 1:19.262
15 - 1:31.700
16 - 1:14.754
17 - 1:14.777

 

He is consistently slower than Fernando, that's from Austria but I can bring data from any of the eight races so far.

 

 

I've bolded the times affected by Kimi being magnussen-limited.

 

The laps Kimi had clean air and overlapping with Alonso having clean air and nobody pitting of these two in some lap, are the underlined ones. 

 

 

Alonso

 

11 - 1:15.097
12 - 1:15.267
13 - 1:15.530

 
Kimi

 

11 - 1:15.361 (+0.26)
12 - 1:15.428 (+0.16)
13 - 1:15.660 (+0.13)

 

And remember Kimi had power + brake issues and asked to slow down, all the while not having found the setup, and also racing with hard tires that are hard to switch on which goes against his preference. So, yeah, 1-2 tenths is nothing after you factor all these in.



#2453 pokerkid

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:05

I'm a little baffled that Kimi seems to have gone backwards considerably the past few races. He seemed to have caught up with Alonso by Spain and Monaco but he's been nowhere to be seen the past 2 weekends. I was expecting him to have been a minor upgrade on Massa but even those relatively low expectations haven't materialized. I'm sure there's technical explanations for it but the reality is the points gap is rather large.

 

 

Every track is different, so his performance will vary depending on well the track, car suits him there. It is not constant where he is close one weekend and then you should expect him to be close for the rest of the season. It does not work like that.



#2454 krumpli12

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:06

Regarding mechanical failures, Fernando has had problems with electrical power in the last five races, in one of them only the right brakes were working, in another the power of the ICE had to be limited...

 

And there is some ongoing problem with his startsystem as well or at least with the electronical part of the start (I don't know exactly what he said, this year's car are waaaay too complicated for me), he alluded to that for a couple of times now. And it seems to me, they cannot get on top of that problem either.


Edited by krumpli12, 23 June 2014 - 13:11.


#2455 krumpli12

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:11

I've bolded the times affected by Kimi being magnussen-limited.

 

The laps Kimi had clean air and overlapping with Alonso having clean air and nobody pitting of these two in some lap, are the underlined ones. 

 

 

Alonso

 

11 - 1:15.097
12 - 1:15.267
13 - 1:15.530

 
Kimi

 

11 - 1:15.361 (+0.26)
12 - 1:15.428 (+0.16)
13 - 1:15.660 (+0.13)

 

And remember Kimi had power + brake issues and asked to slow down, all the while not having found the setup, and also racing with hard tires that are hard to switch on which goes against his preference. So, yeah, 1-2 tenths is nothing after you factor all these in.

 

This is year I think is very tricky to trying to compare pace, simply because of the reservation techniques they have to do. The only real comparison can be done at the end of the race, nothing else will give you a clear picture (or at least long periods have to be compared, like whole stints with one type of tire). To grab a couple of laps for comparison is not going to work, imo.



#2456 ThawedIceman

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:15

I've bolded the times affected by Kimi being magnussen-limited.

 

The laps Kimi had clean air and overlapping with Alonso having clean air and nobody pitting of these two in some lap, are the underlined ones. 

 

 

Alonso

 

11 - 1:15.097
12 - 1:15.267
13 - 1:15.530

 
Kimi

 

11 - 1:15.361 (+0.26)
12 - 1:15.428 (+0.16)
13 - 1:15.660 (+0.13)

 

And remember Kimi had power + brake issues and asked to slow down, all the while not having found the setup, and also racing with hard tires that are hard to switch on which goes against his preference. So, yeah, 1-2 tenths is nothing after you factor all these in.

 

I'm sorry, but wouldn't Kimi have had no Magnussen limit if he had qualified better? Just wonderin'...



#2457 Jovanotti

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:23

I'm sorry, but wouldn't Kimi have had no Magnussen limit if he had qualified better? Just wonderin'...

Was that the question? No, it wasn't.

 

Many people around here with seemingly no discussion culture at all. Moving the goal posts all the time, mixing in topics that are not relevant for the question that is being discussed.



#2458 Kimble

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:24

There are a lot of times this season that their lap times were equal or Kimi was faster so the statement is still true.

 

Similarly regarding mechanical issues all that is stated is that Kimi has had more.   There is no claim that Alonso hasn't had any.


Edited by Kimble, 23 June 2014 - 13:26.


#2459 Ncedi

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:25

I've bolded the times affected by Kimi being magnussen-limited.

 

The laps Kimi had clean air and overlapping with Alonso having clean air and nobody pitting of these two in some lap, are the underlined ones. 

 

 

Alonso

 

11 - 1:15.097
12 - 1:15.267
13 - 1:15.530

 
Kimi

 

11 - 1:15.361 (+0.26)
12 - 1:15.428 (+0.16)
13 - 1:15.660 (+0.13)

 

And remember Kimi had power + brake issues and asked to slow down, all the while not having found the setup, and also racing with hard tires that are hard to switch on which goes against his preference. So, yeah, 1-2 tenths is nothing after you factor all these in.

 

Whose fault is it that he hasnt found the setup? His engineers? They've spent six months trying to help him, new parts (which were touted as the game changer) and new engineer to communicate with.

 

Must they change the tyres to suit Kimi or should he adapt? Alonso last year also would have preferred the softer tyres but we saw what happened. He still went on and did well (last year and this). Why is Kimi not adjusting to cope like others?

 

Power issues? Yep, but Alonso also had those.

 

Brake issues? Sure I can't fault that but it's funny how people went so far to play down the extent of Alonso's brake issues in Monaco but now here we are and it's such a massive problem.

 

Lastly, if you look at the last stint Kimi got a wholloping from Alonso when both were running in clean air. He pulled at least 5 seconds on Kimi.



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#2460 Ncedi

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:26

Every track is different, so his performance will vary depending on well the track, car suits him there. It is not constant where he is close one weekend and then you should expect him to be close for the rest of the season. It does not work like that.

 

But Alonso is ther or thereabouts every weekend, every track...why should Kimi be excused on track dependence when he's driving the same car?



#2461 dreamer

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:27

You were using that excuse to justify their points difference. Ricciardo has shown that your theory is just an irrelevant factor that can be ignored. A good driver can adapt to new regulations, new car, new team quite quickly and beat his teammate. That is what Ricciardo has shown this year.

 

If you accepted his weanesses you wouldn't come here with that theory.

 

 

In which point during the conversation we had did I talk about the points difference? And in which point of our conversation did I talk about excuses? 

 

I could never have imagine that a compliment I made about a team working well and having a good relation and communication during the years was going to be so misunderstood! I didn't use it as an excuse for the points difference. I didn't talk in our conversation about points difference.

 

If you want my opinion on this here it is: they have 60 points difference. That's big! Kimi and his team need to put their act together, find solutions to their problems, try to have good strategies and win more points. And yes this may take them time and i know it! 

 

As for Ricciardo as I explained in my post, most of his races are trouble free and good for him!!!! I'm happy for him that he went to a big team and immidiately have great results!!!! He is fast, he is talented and I respect him as a driver. I want him to do good as I want Kimi, Alonso and Vettel to do good and have trouble free races! But unfortunately most of Kimi's, Alonso's and Vette's races are not trouble free.... so I can't compare.


Edited by dreamer, 23 June 2014 - 13:37.


#2462 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:29

Kimi beat him in 2007 and lost in 2008 due to many freak factors against Kimi in mid-2008 (a streak of crashes, some his own fault, some not like Canada where he was crashed by Hamilton in the pitlane, the team changing the suspension against Kimi's wishes, the Spa incident in which Massa "won" from the Kimi-Hamilton battle when one crashed and the other got penalized, etc). Even so it was close. Massa wasn't two times better than Kimi, hence the equation can't fit.
 
If say Alonso beat Massa by 2x and is beating Kimi by 4x, and assuming Massa = Kimi for the sake of argument or even 10% better than Kimi, then it is readily apparent something is going wrong and Kimi is not maximizing his potential. Ferrari didn't maximize Kimi the first time around and now they are even worse at it. Yet Mclaren gave him a year old car (2002 chassis) with an overweight engine of 72 degree design and high center of gravity (when others were using 90deg), and he was beating 4 cars faster than him (williamses & ferraris) in 2003 in avg points per finish - and he would be a champion if it wasn't for his more unreliable package. You can't overcome the machinery handicap without being a beast of a driver. It's clear Ferrari have problems with maximizing Kimi's potential. Whether it's the mechanics assigned to him, their modus operandi that is incompatible with Kimi or their internal politics.

Clearly all Ferrari's fault.

#2463 joonz

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:51

 

 

Power issues? Yep, but Alonso also had those.

 

Brake issues? Sure I can't fault that but it's funny how people went so far to play down the extent of Alonso's brake issues in Monaco but now here we are and it's such a massive problem.

 

 

 

It's just funny cause it all started with ''Excuses from Kimi fans'' when Alonso had not suffered from as bad issues. Then you use double standards on ''Alonso had problems so he must be 8 tenths of a second really quicker than Kimi" and if Kimi has problems again its "Alonso also had those" When he didn't have them in the same race.



#2464 joonz

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 13:54

But Alonso is ther or thereabouts every weekend, every track...why should Kimi be excused on track dependence when he's driving the same car?

 

Alonso has been with the team for 4 years straight, of course he has had more input on the development of the car. It is by no means all on the development, Alonso is way better than Kimi at this point, but a big difference maker is the level of confidence the drivers have on the car, and at this moment Alonso is on level 80/100 and Kimi somewhere along 40/100. Hope you got what I meant.



#2465 discover23

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:08

Alonso has been with the team for 4 years straight, of course he has had more input on the development of the car. It is by no means all on the development, Alonso is way better than Kimi at this point, but a big difference maker is the level of confidence the drivers have on the car, and at this moment Alonso is on level 80/100 and Kimi somewhere along 40/100. Hope you got what I meant.

 


See Ricardo / Vettel.

#2466 NoSanityClause

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:14

Alonso has been with the team for 4 years straight, of course he has had more input on the development of the car. It is by no means all on the development, Alonso is way better than Kimi at this point, but a big difference maker is the level of confidence the drivers have on the car, and at this moment Alonso is on level 80/100 and Kimi somewhere along 40/100. Hope you got what I meant.

(Please note that I started with a reply to you and ended up replying in a much more general sense, so this post is not aimed specifically at you, so sorry)

 

When Alonso arrived at Ferrari, Massa had been there for 4 years. 

When Lewis arrived at Mercedes, Nico had been there for 3 years.

When Ricciardo arrived at RBR, Vettel had been there for 5 years.

I can go on, and on, of course.

 

None of these situations (and no other that I can think of) meant that the new arrival was so completely obliterated by his teammate. Blips? Yes. Beaten by his teammate on his first year? Understandable, even. But something like ALO vs RAI? 

 

No matter how many external factors people add. And all those factors can be valid only if it takes into consideration external factors affecting EVERY other driver, and assessing what is the actual incidence. Even considering all those factors, Kimi is a top class driver. Either his past history is a lie, flattered by lots of luck (the same Alonso is being accused of having) or he is seriously underperforming this year, even if we consider the whole bunch of "reasons" given.

 

I never considered him a tier 1 driver, but this year he doesn't even look like a tier 2. SOME of that lies at Kimi''s feet. And if he doesn't change, then things can only go worse for himself.



#2467 Ncedi

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:14

It's just funny cause it all started with ''Excuses from Kimi fans'' when Alonso had not suffered from as bad issues. Then you use double standards on ''Alonso had problems so he must be 8 tenths of a second really quicker than Kimi" and if Kimi has problems again its "Alonso also had those" When he didn't have them in the same race.

 

I'm not sure I'm following you. If you look back at me posting, I have never once made an excuse for Alonso (in fact I think this is the first time I've mentioned the braking in Monaco due to double standards), that extends to the times he has been beaten in qualifying as well. Anyway I did say that Alonso had power issues this race too, same as Kimi. EDIT: Just to note, the power issue quote wasn't an excuse (it was to illustrate that both cars had a problem related to that). I really don't need excuses when Fernando is beating Kimi and I don't use them either when Kimi is beating Fernando.

 

Alonso has been with the team for 4 years straight, of course he has had more input on the development of the car. It is by no means all on the development, Alonso is way better than Kimi at this point, but a big difference maker is the level of confidence the drivers have on the car, and at this moment Alonso is on level 80/100 and Kimi somewhere along 40/100. Hope you got what I meant.

 

I get what you mean but it then how does that explain Alonso walking into Mclaren and being quick, moving back to Renault and showing pace then moving to Ferrari and being on it from the beginning? Was he involved in the development of those cars before he got to the new teams? Yes, Kimi isn't comfortable but he should at least show some reasonable pace, as he did in the F2007 and the Lotus when he came back. Maybe the problem here is just that Alonso is faster...


Edited by Ncedi, 23 June 2014 - 14:20.


#2468 joonz

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:22

See Ricardo / Vettel.

 

 

Exception that proves the rule  :)

 

What I was trying to say that small things matter. A good example is that when Williams took their EBD away last season (Austin GP), it made it a lot of easier for Bottas to drive, where as Maldonado struggled even more compared to previous.



#2469 joonz

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:32

 

 

I get what you mean but it then how does that explain Alonso walking into Mclaren and being quick, moving back to Renault and showing pace then moving to Ferrari and being on it from the beginning? Was he involved in the development of those cars before he got to the new teams? Yes, Kimi isn't comfortable but he should at least show some reasonable pace, as he did in the F2007 and the Lotus when he came back. Maybe the problem here is just that Alonso is faster...

 

I never denied that Alonso was faster, more the opposite. Alonso is faster on merit so far even if you look at the bigger picture where you take all the mishaps and failures (team, driver error etc..) into account.

 

I think the largest problem for Kimi aside from his adaptability is the suspension that no one else seems to like but Fernando.. I'm answerless to be honest, I just hope that Ferrari and Kimi are able to sort it out in order to maximize his performance for the rest of the season. Hopefully the car is easier to setup next year and Allison takes a special note of Kimi's hopes for the next years car.  Fernando can easily adapt to a car that is for Kimi's liking. At least better than vice versa I think.. :)

 

 

P.S.

 

I appreciate your rationality.


Edited by joonz, 23 June 2014 - 14:34.


#2470 Atic Atac

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:35

I never denied that Alonso was faster, more the opposite. Alonso is faster on merit so far even if you look at the bigger picture where you take all the mishaps and failures (team, driver error etc..) into account.

 

I think the largest problem for Kimi aside from his adaptability is the suspension that no one else seems to like but Fernando.. I'm answerless to be honest, I just hope that Ferrari and Kimi are able to sort it out in order to maximize his performance for the rest of the season. Hopefully the car is easier to setup next year and Allison takes a special note of Kimi's hopes for the next years car.  Fernando can easily adapt to a car that is for Kimi's liking. At least better than vice versa I think.. :)

 

Pleaseeeee.



#2471 Ncedi

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:41

I never denied that Alonso was faster, more the opposite. Alonso is faster on merit so far even if you look at the bigger picture where you take all the mishaps and failures (team, driver error etc..) into account.

 

I think the largest problem for Kimi aside from his adaptability is the suspension that no one else seems to like but Fernando.. I'm answerless to be honest, I just hope that Ferrari and Kimi are able to sort it out in order to maximize his performance for the rest of the season. Hopefully the car is easier to setup next year and Allison takes a special note of Kimi's hopes for the next years car.  Fernando can easily adapt to a car that is for Kimi's liking. At least better than vice versa I think.. :)

 

 

P.S.

 

I appreciate your rationality.

 

Thank you  :)

 

Yeah, I hope they give Kimi what he needs to be quick and that Fernando gets the same. Kimi is a strong driver, whether he can consistently beat Fernando in any car, I don't think so (and I know opinions differ). This battle should be a lot closer but it just isn't.

 

Kimi is down now but certainly not out...I don't think he has it to beat Fernando over a season but to push him, no doubt.



#2472 discover23

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 14:44



I think the largest problem for Kimi aside from his adaptability is the suspension that no one else seems to like but Fernando..

where are you getting this from.?. How about Kimi is the only driver who struggles most to adapt to new cars - or maybe is not that but he and his fans are the one's who complaint about it the most.

 

He had adjusting isues with Ferrari in 07, again in 08 and then again in 12 .. and also in 13 -

It is either one of two things.. 1. He is super sensitive to the handling of the car, more than other drivers or 2. He complaints the most.

 

 

This is a quote from him from last year in October..

 

"A: You spoke over the weekend of the car feeling more to your liking, which much be a positive looking to the remaining races of the season?

"The car felt pretty strong all weekend and we've made good progress with it recently. It's still not exactly as I want it and we're trying to get rid of some understeer which is something I don't like."

 

so basically, what we are seeing with Ferrari is business as usual for Kimi..and he's also said that these are problems that he's dealt with in the past.


Edited by discover23, 23 June 2014 - 15:30.


#2473 kosmos

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:28

In case some one cares about what Autosport has to say about both drivers in Austria.

 

7 KIMI RAIKKONEN

 

Rating: 4

The bottom line is that Raikkonen finished 30 seconds behind Alonso and was unable to string together a serious qualifying lap because of small errors.

Moaned about the brakes and tyre problems but scoring one point when your team-mate is fifth is sub-standard.

 

 

14 FERNANDO ALONSO

 

Rating: 10

The Ferrari wasn't a Mercedes- or Williams-beater, so for Alonso to be best-of-the-rest in qualifying and the race represents something of a class victory.

Particularly good was his soft-tyre management, which did allow him to give Massa something to think about late on.

 

 



#2474 Jovanotti

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:53

I fail to see what 2003 has to do with anything here.

#2475 santori

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:57

It's reminding me more and more of Prost vs. Rosberg. Two great drivers but one slightly past his best and in a car he really doesn't like. Sometimes he can match his team mate but his team mate drives at that level race after race.

 

p.s. Before anyone asks, I think that across their careers Raikkonen is closer to Alonso than Rosberg to Prost.

 

 

 

EDIT. When Kimi retired from F1 the first time, there was a thread about whether he or Hakkinen was better. I said I thought Kimi was (slightly) more talented but Mika had made more of his talent. I feel that Kimi and Alonso are very similarly talented but that Alonso has made more of his talent.


Edited by santori, 23 June 2014 - 16:00.


#2476 arnoldpredator

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 15:58

I fail to see what 2003 has to do with anything here.

 

He is just trying to tell us how good Alonso is, since he is beating Kimi, and Kimi was already amazing.

 

So if Kimi is the best in 20 years and Alonso is better, ouch, ALonso is incredible.

 

:rotfl:



#2477 DavidHeath461

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 16:03

I think Kimi should be closer in Silverstone.

In the tracks with high speed corners (Malaysia and Barcelona) Kimi has looked fast and
Close to Alonso.

#2478 K-One

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 16:19

http://www.motorspor...unden-hinueber/

Seems that Alonso can call the shots, but not KR

Edited by K-One, 23 June 2014 - 16:21.


#2479 dreamer

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 16:35

 

You don't talk about excuses, you just use them.

 

Ok, Kimi and his team need to improve, a lot, and as soon as possible. We both agree at that point.

 

Ricciardo lost a podium in the first race, he was not so "trouble free" as you say.

 

 

 Saying that Alonso works well with his team is not an excuse. It's a fact and a good thing. Saying that Kimi has to work better with the team to solve his problems is not an excuse. It's a fact and something they have to do.

 

About Ricciardo... I wrote this in my first post and I just didn't want to repeat it. Here is what I wrote:

 

 

 

Ricciardo is really fast and was used in driving difficult cars. On the same time he seems to be trouble free (with the exception of the fuel problem in Australia and the team's really bad pit stop in the next race).

 

I actually really enjoyed our discussion but I have to go now.


Edited by dreamer, 23 June 2014 - 16:36.


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#2480 arnoldpredator

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 16:59

 

 

 

 Saying that Alonso works well with his team is not an excuse. It's a fact and a good thing. Saying that Kimi has to work better with the team to solve his problems is not an excuse. It's a fact and something they have to do.

 

About Ricciardo... I wrote this in my first post and I just didn't want to repeat it. Here is what I wrote:

 

 

I actually really enjoyed our discussion but I have to go now.

 

It is a fact... that does not matter, it can be ignored. If that theory were true every time a driver joins a team would find impossible to beat his teammate.

 

Saying that Kimi has to work better with the team is obvious. What I don't like are the "if..." and "but..." . If Kimi hadn't problems he would be better than Alonso... and if my mother had wheels she would be a motorbike. The fact is Kimi has found "special problems" a lot of years in his career, it is just the opposite for Alonso and that makes the Spanish a better driver. He is really quick solving his problems and driving fast under any condition.

 

So basically Ricciardo is fast and Raikkonen not, that is what we can conclude from what you say and that is something a lot more fair than talking about the new team and the mechanics.



#2481 yr

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:09

In case some one cares about what Autosport has to say about both drivers in Austria.

It´s sad when respected news site like Autosport is reporting drivers words: "already on second lap I begun to have problems with breaks overheating and had to slow down" as "moaning on brakes". It´s like F1 is like tennis or something like that, where the athlete is solely responsible of his/hers results, there really are no excuses that could work there. In F1 if you need to slow down because of breake problems, its not "moaning about brakes", it´s having to slow down because of brake problems. Mind you, I am not saying Kimi wasn´t worse of the Ferrari drivers this weekend, FA was clearly better, but from a great motorsports site like Autosport to wipe off Kimis brake problems with "moaning about brakes" is truly pathetic, something you would expect to read from fanboys of other drivers or his haters in here at forum, defenately not on Autosports official driver ratings.



#2482 Oho

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:40

In case some one cares about what Autosport has to say about both drivers in Austria.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia...._from_authority



#2483 NoSanityClause

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:44

Wrong.

 

Presenting an opinion (such as Kosmos did) is not the same as saying "Autosport said Alonso is better, therefore, he is".

 

Close, but no cigar.



#2484 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:49

http://www.motorspor...unden-hinueber/

Seems that Alonso can call the shots, but not KR

Same with every driver, including Alonso. Team ultimately calls the shots as they have all the data and race info on-hand.

Only real exception to this is during changeable wet conditions.

#2485 Vesuvius

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 17:59

Indeed but yet at barcelona when Alonso(according to his own words) asked the team to pit, they did... and many Alonso fans here said it was Kimi's fault for not asking back than to pit, well now he did but Ferrari denied him....

#2486 Vesuvius

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:07

where are you getting this from.?. How about Kimi is the only driver who struggles most to adapt to new cars - or maybe is not that but he and his fans are the one's who complaint about it the most.
 
He had adjusting isues with Ferrari in 07, again in 08 and then again in 12 .. and also in 13 -
It is either one of two things.. 1. He is super sensitive to the handling of the car, more than other drivers or 2. He complaints the most.
 
 
This is a quote from him from last year in October..
 
"A: You spoke over the weekend of the car feeling more to your liking, which much be a positive looking to the remaining races of the season?
"The car felt pretty strong all weekend and we've made good progress with it recently. It's still not exactly as I want it and we're trying to get rid of some understeer which is something I don't like."
 
so basically, what we are seeing with Ferrari is business as usual for Kimi..and he's also said that these are problems that he's dealt with in the past.


Kimi has already said before montreal that it's the tyres that is the problem for him that combined with his driving style.Kimi is super sensitive to the handling, that is known as well.

#2487 Vinsin

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:37

Adaptability debate- my 2 cents for being new around here in favor of Kimi Raikkonen.

If Kimi adapts his driving style, highly successful with Sauber, McLaren, Ferrari 07 & Lotus to his current new Ferrari, he will finish 5th just like Alonso. He tries I guess, but really, it's 5th place nonetheless.

Scenario 2- If Ferrari adapt their car instead to his driving style, then maybe bigger goals like wins or championships can be fought just like 2009, Rally, Nascar, 12 & 13.

This 2014 season is over, now the fight begins for setup & development changes for 2015 within Ferrari.

Kimi himself has said many times that he is working with Ferrari to change it to reach for top positions again. Alonso is working as well.

Let's see where this goes, as clearly, Kimi & Alonso are hooked together for 2015 by Ferrari according to all media rumblings.

Edited by Vinsin, 23 June 2014 - 18:46.


#2488 discover23

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:38



Kimi has already said before montreal that it's the tyres that is the problem for him that combined with his driving style.Kimi is super sensitive to the handling, that is known as well.

To me this is like a dog chasing his tail.. Is he and his fans going to continue, week after week, telling us that the car is not perfect to his liking, when most likely that perfection or sweet spot will never happen?  

This is a thread about Kimi vs Alonso and about their respective performances with the car and regulations that they are driving today.. and so far to be honest there is very little to discuss about this topic because so far it is a no contest.

 

I think that perhaps a new thread called "How can Formula 1 and its regulations be changed to help Kimi be fast again" should be created and all of these adaptation, car sensitivity, tyres, suspensions, etc, etc, etc.. be discussed there.

 

How many times in this thread you've said that the tyres are the problem for Kimi? and how many times have you received a response that the tyres are the same for everyone?


Edited by discover23, 23 June 2014 - 18:39.


#2489 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:42

Indeed but yet at barcelona when Alonso(according to his own words) asked the team to pit, they did... and many Alonso fans here said it was Kimi's fault for not asking back than to pit, well now he did but Ferrari denied him....

Blaming Kimi for that instance is wrong then. And I doubt Alonso was in charge of when he pitted then, either. I'm sure he was asking for the opportunity to undercut, but that's still ultimately the team's decision. Its different than being 'in charge', ya know? I'm willing to bet that Ferrari were thinking of how to get Alonso ahead well before Alonso said anything about it. I know I was.

Edited by Seanspeed, 23 June 2014 - 18:43.


#2490 K-One

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:45

Indeed but yet at barcelona when Alonso(according to his own words) asked the team to pit, they did... and many Alonso fans here said it was Kimi's fault for not asking back than to pit, well now he did but Ferrari denied him....


When Alonso reacts, it is the right thing to do, he can read race well, he has very good cooperation with race engineer.
If KR does the same, it's wrong and team knows better

#2491 Vesuvius

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:49

Kimi about his problems to TS:

From weekend to another Kimi Raikkonen keeps on having problems to get his Ferrari car to his liking. It was already told by Kimi forehand that for F14T the worst tracks will be Bahrain,Canada and Austria...and it was excatly what happened.

In these three races Kimi came 10th in all of them.

-" It was the same fighting with the car again whole weekend, Kimi said"

- There is certain things on the car, that won't work like I want them to and there is troubles with tyres.It's the combination of the two that are causing troubles. We know what we should do to the car, when we lose on the mechanical side, when we have no grip when accelarating out of the corners, or even normal grip, we should get changes to the balance.

– Car is very difficult to drive for me, because I hate the kind of front end that is weak and that's excatly what we have at the moment.When we then focus more to the front end, we lose the grip of the rear.

-We have tried to find a better balance between the two, because we have to get that to work.It's however clear, that it takes time to find that balance.But I'm convinced that we will find it.

When team asked during the race Kimi to push faster, he answered give me more power.So was there problems on the engine side?

"-yes, we had to cool it down, but already after two laps my brakes were overheating, and team asked me to cool them.I was at that moment driving behind another car(Magnussen) and another car (Hulkenberg) was behind me, so cooling them was difficult at that point.Those things should not happend, you can't race if already after two laps you have to slow down.

Raikkonen lost a lot of time during the pitstop.

- The timing of my pitstop was really bad, when my tyres were already in pretty bad shape.I don't know the reason, why we stopped so late but it did cost few places. With the speed I had, there was no way to get those places back. It was a bad thing, Kimi said."

#2492 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:52

When Alonso reacts, it is the right thing to do, he can read race well, he has very good cooperation with race engineer.
If KR does the same, it's wrong and team knows better

Nobody has said or implied that, sorry.

#2493 Vesuvius

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:54

To me this is like a dog chasing his tail.. Is he and his fans going to continue, week after week, telling us that the car is not perfect to his liking, when most likely that perfection or sweet spot will never happen?  
This is a thread about Kimi vs Alonso and about their respective performances with the car and regulations that they are driving today.. and so far to be honest there is very little to discuss about this topic because so far it is a no contest.
 
I think that perhaps a new thread called "How can Formula 1 and its regulations be changed to help Kimi be fast again" should be created and all of these adaptation, car sensitivity, tyres, suspensions, etc, etc, etc.. be discussed there.
 
How many times in this thread you've said that the tyres are the problem for Kimi? and how many times have you received a response that the tyres are the same for everyone?



Tyres are problem for Kimi because he is too kind for them to get enough out of them over one lap, and when he has got them to right temperature...tyres have already lost their best grip/performance but it's the problem caused by Kimi's driving style. At the moment there is no solution until Ferrari and Kimi finds the balance or if pirelli changes their tyres, which is unlikely.

#2494 Trust

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 18:56

Could it be possible maybe that Kimi has the same problems like Grosjean had last year in first two races?. IIRC, his telemetry was broken, when they were doing setup on the car it was sending wrong information and his setup was in chaos. If you remember he was nowhere in those two races and after that they discovered the problem and fix it.



#2495 masa90

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 19:02

To me this is like a dog chasing his tail.. Is he and his fans going to continue, week after week, telling us that the car is not perfect to his liking, when most likely that perfection or sweet spot will never happen?  

This is a thread about Kimi vs Alonso and about their respective performances with the car and regulations that they are driving today.. and so far to be honest there is very little to discuss about this topic because so far it is a no contest.

 

I think that perhaps a new thread called "How can Formula 1 and its regulations be changed to help Kimi be fast again" should be created and all of these adaptation, car sensitivity, tyres, suspensions, etc, etc, etc.. be discussed there.

 

How many times in this thread you've said that the tyres are the problem for Kimi? and how many times have you received a response that the tyres are the same for everyone?

 

Do you do anything else in here but bully people who choose Kimi as his favourite?

 

There currently is many things wrong with Kimi + Ferrari f14t which makes the end result not so good.

 

Confirmed by Kimi too, tires, steering, understeed, powerunit, breakes  etc have already been called out by Kimi, so why are you just sticking to the tires part?

 

 

Either way you cant just keep posting one statement about the situation and try to convince people that it is only "truth" to fit your argument, it is getting old and makes you look silly because you seem to be so deep in your argument and unability to see the whole picture.

 

Also that kinda behaviour just destroys conversation.


Edited by masa90, 23 June 2014 - 19:03.


#2496 Borko

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 20:14

To me this is like a dog chasing his tail.. Is he and his fans going to continue, week after week, telling us that the car is not perfect to his liking, when most likely that perfection or sweet spot will never happen? 

I don't know what do you think is wrong with Raikkonen's statement that Vesuvius quoted. What Raikkonen said are not excuses, he simply explained what bothers him.



#2497 Radion

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 20:21

I don't know what do you think is wrong with Raikkonen's statement that Vesuvius quoted. What Raikkonen said are not excuses, he simply explained what bothers him.

He wants him to say that alonso's simply faster.



#2498 garoidb

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 20:33

If the positions had been reversed, there is no way Alonso would have hit Raikkonen. Fernando relied a bit too much on Kimi's discretion.  



#2499 Cyanide

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 20:35

I just don't understand one thing: Kimi raced at Ferrari for 3 years, he probably knows the cars in general over there have stubborn understeer. Why did he return then?

 

It's complete career suicide if he can't overcome this problem. 


Edited by Cyanide, 23 June 2014 - 20:35.


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#2500 garoidb

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 20:40

I just don't understand one thing: Kimi raced at Ferrari for 3 years, he probably knows the cars in general over there have stubborn understeer. Why did he return then?

 

It's complete career suicide if he can't overcome this problem. 

 

He is getting paid, and the Lotus is not a competitive car either. In that (very important) sense, it was the right decision.

 

In hindsight, if he had the chance, Williams would have been a better option (as long as it was instead of, and not alongside, Massa). McLaren would be a wash out too, and he would be expected to beat Button so failing to do so would be bad for the career too. 

 

Edit: Actually Felipe has shown that what Kimi is experiencing is not career suicide. Felipe had this for four years, and got a better drive at the end of it. 


Edited by garoidb, 23 June 2014 - 20:41.