69 replies to this topic

[MrMan]

Just to clear things up regarding engine setting: it's not like a 'secret' engine setting they aren't allowed to use. After the last pitstop they simply turn the engine down a bit to conserve it. To keep the fight fair, both drivers do this at the same time. However, both of them apparently changed the setting back to a more powerful mode at some point.
 

 

If that's true, I guess that explains why the Red Bulls are consistently able to catch the Mercedes towards the end of the race.

[AlmightyGod]

One has to wonder why toto and niki chose to bring up barcelona. I haven't found anything article or report suggesting that lewis revealed it. The fact that both niki and toto chose to mention it during such a tense weekend is very suspect. Would it not have been better to keep such team details away from the public?. They want lewis to keep any grief he has within the team yet both these high ranking mercedes figures chose to do the opposite of that. Funny how it caught both drivers by surprise when the engine settings question was put to them.

Edited by AlmightyGod, 27 May 2014 - 10:16.

[peroa]

One has to wonder why toto and niki chose to bring up barcelona. I haven't found anything article or report suggesting that lewis revealed it. The fact that both niki and toto chose to mention it during such a tense weekend is very suspect. Would it not have been better to keep such team details away from the public?. They want lewis to keep any grief he has within the team yet both these high ranking mercedes figures chose to do the opposite of that. Funny how it caught both drivers by surprise when the engine settings question was put to them.

It was apparently published in AMuS the morning before the race, but Brundle said in the pre-race show that a good source within the team he won't name revealed it to him.

So yes, Merc did try to shift all the negative attention to Lewis, of course without mentioning that ROS started it all in Bahrain.

http://www.auto-moto...nt-8387102.html

Edited by peroa, 27 May 2014 - 10:34.

[Jon83]

Not IMO.

 

If Hamilton won every race from here on in, with Rosberg finishing second, I'm sure the team would be over the moon at their success (rightly of course) despite the lack of real championship drama.

 

Mercedes are not going to risk loss of points for the entertainment of others.

 

Also, I don't see what the team has done so far this season to make people believe they are trying to engineer anything artifical.

Edited by Jon83, 27 May 2014 - 11:44.

[garagetinkerer]

Not IMO.

 

If Hamilton won every race from here on in, with Rosberg finishing second, I'm sure the team would be over the moon at their success (rightly of course) despite the lack of real championship drama.

 

Mercedes are not going to risk loss of points for the entertainment of others.

 

Also, I don't see what the team has done so far this season to make people believe they are trying to engineer anything artifical.

Actually some of the comments by Wolff while answering some questions were rather interesting. I actually thought for a bit that it may just be, an orchestrated effort to spice things up. I know it sounds silly, but with the car being so far ahead as it is, they could start every race from dead last, and could still win by and large all of them. When i originally mentioned that this is one of the most dominant cars, i was told it was the talent behind the wheel, but i dare say that most would not contradict that anymore. They have that much margin. They did get (well, coerce is more like it for all intents and purposes with routine threats of withdrawal) a favour from FIA, so may be they're returning one by making it a bit more spicy. As boring was the complaint some of the fans had in the past 3-4 years, during which time the more popular drivers weren't winning much. I could be wrong on this one, and i'm not willing to bet a crow on this one.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 28 May 2014 - 04:45.

[CHIUNDA]

http://www.motorspor...naco-gp-report/

Another sprinkle of spicing

"Even inside the team, there are those who will tell you off the record that they suspect that it was indeed deliberate. To not reflect that general feeling – as well as how I personally judged the front-on shot of the incident (which was not shown on tv) in which Rosberg’s car appears to be easily slowed enough to make the turn at the turn-in point – and only then locks its brakes – would do the report a disservice."

"As for including Lauda and Wolff as those insisting it wasn’t deliberate. Come on – what else are they going to say publically? They are Mercedes. And at least one of those admitted off record that he suspected it was deliberate"

m.bbc.com/sport/formula1/27569594

That is the only sensible way to approach it.
The reality is that a Prost/Senna-type confrontation scenario will do much more for the media value of Mercedes and their partners than just dominating the season and making it boring.
It can only be negative if they lose the world championship as a result of it, but that is not going to happen. One of them is going to win it. We know that already.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 02 June 2014 - 05:41.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Speaking of engine settings, why does Hamilton always use far less fuel than Rosberg?  Is his driving style so comparatively smooth that he can't actually use up all the fuel he can be allotted?  

[redreni]

Following the Monaco GP weekend a few things have been made public to the fans. 

 

It has come to light that Mercedes initially forbade their drivers from using a particular engine setting, but at the Spanish GP, Lewis used the setting to stay ahead of Nico. When asked about this, lewis mentioned that Nico was actually the first to use the setting at the Bahrain GP. 

 

Wolff no more underhand tactics. Toto mentions what happened in barcelona

 

http://www.planetf1....derhand-tactics

 

 

Here Rosberg denied anything happened regarding engine settings at Barcelona 

 

http://www1.skysport...off-at-mercedes

 

 

This engine setting arrangement surely guarantees that one of the drivers will attempt pull a fast one to jump the other, paving the way for distrust and underhand tactics within the team. What about the team deciding what race all the modes can be used and when they can't depending on which driver it will benefit, sort of a technical team order .

 

Excerpt from David Coulthard's BBC column

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/27569594

 

'It emerged in Monaco that one of the contributory factors to the dispute was that Hamilton had used a 'boost' mode on his engine during their battle for victory at the previous race in Spain when the drivers had been forbidden from doing so. That appears to have annoyed Rosberg'

 

'But firstly Hamilton said Rosberg himself had done the same thing during their fight in Bahrain, so it was effectively neutralised.

And secondly, having something that can make performance better and asking a driver not to use it is like asking a kid not to lick an ice cream.

You can ask, you can chastise them afterwards, but you knew what was going to happen and you'd actually be disappointed if they did not show the very instincts that children should show.

It's the same with competitive people. You cannot expect a natural born winner not to use every tool at his disposal and every trick in the book to its full potential if it is accessible to him, as long as it is legal.'

 

I disagree with Coulthard, because the reason the team forbids the drivers from using the full potential of the engine will be that the team doesn't need the extra performance, and they feel they can enhance reliability and engine life by not using it. From the driver's perspective, the advantage you gain from defying the team and using a forbidden mode is going to be fairly marginal, and it's a pure one-off, since trust will very quickly erode and they will end up both using the forbidden mode whenever they feel they need it, negating the advantage. Every team does stuff like that - when you're racing yourself you don't compromise yourself by pitting earlier than the optimum lap to try to get one car past the other, and you don't stress the engine to breaking point to try to get the last one or two bhp.

 

It's a tricky one for the team to control. It really depends what the consequences would be of allowing the drivers to rag the engines. If they feel they have to control it, the only way to do so might be to cut of their nose to spite their face. For example, they could say that if, in future, one driver uses the forbidden mode and the other does not, the driver who does not play by the rules will, in the following race, run a front wing/aero package that is about half a second slower than the other car. Or they could simply disable the relevant mode.

[Fourjays]

Speaking of engine settings, why does Hamilton always use far less fuel than Rosberg?  Is his driving style so comparatively smooth that he can't actually use up all the fuel he can be allotted?  

Been asking myself the same question. I had put it down to the benefit of running in clear air, but at Monaco he still used less despite riding Rosberg's tail for large parts of the race. He doesn't seem to use up what he saves when it would be useful (i.e. Bahrain, Spain), so unless the graphics are consistently incorrect I don't get it.

[Zoetrope]

Been asking myself the same question. I had put it down to the benefit of running in clear air, but at Monaco he still used less despite riding Rosberg's tail for large parts of the race. He doesn't seem to use up what he saves when it would be useful (i.e. Bahrain, Spain), so unless the graphics are consistently incorrect I don't get it.

If he is fueled lighter than Rosberg there is nothing left to be used at the end of the race (like Bahrain or Spain). The graphics shows kg used, not how much is left.

When the graphics shown % used, there was a debate about it on the forums. Now, when it's kgs - it's really as simple as it gets. He burns less fuel, we don't know how heavy he is at the start thou.

[Fourjays]

If he is fueled lighter than Rosberg there is nothing left to be used at the end of the race (like Bahrain or Spain). The graphics shows kg used, not how much is left.

When the graphics shown % used, there was a debate about it on the forums. Now, when it's kgs - it's really as simple as it gets. He burns less fuel, we don't know how heavy he is at the start thou.

Ah ok, that makes perfect sense now!

[Dmitriy_Guller]

It still seems strange that such similar cars would have such dissimilar fuel strategies.  The more cynical side of me wonders whether Mercedes wants to keep Hamilton artificially close to Rosberg to avoid having the audience tune out, and whether both Hamilton and Rosberg are in on it.

[monolulu]

It still seems strange that such similar cars would have such dissimilar fuel strategies. The more cynical side of me wonders whether Mercedes wants to keep Hamilton artificially close to Rosberg to avoid having the audience tune out, and whether both Hamilton and Rosberg are in on it.

Gary Anderson Autosport "Any thoughts on why Rosberg appears to consistently use more fuel in races than Hamilton?
Jay Ell, via Twitter

It is not a case of appears, it is a case of he does use more fuel to do the same laptime. So it's a question a lot of people are asking.

When I go out to watch trackside, the thing I notice is that Lewis carries more speed into the apex of the corner than Nico does.

I believe he is able to do this by coming off the throttle a little earlier than he used to. By doing this, you lose a fraction of time in the braking area but the car is more settled during braking and it allows you to have that little bit more confidence on entry, which means you are more consistent with hitting the apex.

You save fuel because you lift earlier and you improve the laptime because you're able to be faster right into the apex. If you can do this consistently, which it looks like Lewis is able to, then you can reduce the pre-race fuel load.

From what you see on the screen, it looks like about three per cent, or 3kg in the hundred you are allowed. Carrying three kilos less weight per lap for a 60-lap race is worth six seconds.

Most teams are now carrying less than the full fuel limit in the races so as to make the car lighter."
Gary Anderson Autosport

Edited by monolulu, 02 June 2014 - 18:16.

[Peter Perfect]

I think both Mercedes themselves as well as both drivers are well aware of the criticism they've thrown at Red Bull over the last few years and don't want to be tarred in the same way. Realistically there's no way any other team is going to win the WDC or WCC (or even any of the races) such is their advantage so I can see them running with 'driver equality' for a large part of the season. It doesn't matter what stories blow up because, at the end of the day, the publicity and rivalry will stop it becoming a 'boring walkover'.... even if that's what it effectively becomes on track as far as team results go.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

From what you see on the screen, it looks like about three per cent, or 3kg in the hundred you are allowed. Carrying three kilos less weight per lap for a 60-lap race is worth six seconds.

I get the point in general, but this is a bit mathematically flawed.  If you're starting with 3 kg less fuel due to lower consumption, you're not 3 kg lighter for the duration of the race.  You're 3 kg lighter at the start, and at the same weight near the end.  So on average you're only 1.5 kg lighter, so it's only worth 3 seconds.

 

Can you really not make use of any of that additional duel to win back more than 3 seconds?  Are the cars really running up against the fuel flow limit all the time?  If so, then what's all this controversy about Mercedes drivers turning up their engines to fight each other?

[MrMan]

I get the point in general, but this is a bit mathematically flawed.  If you're starting with 3 kg less fuel due to lower consumption, you're not 3 kg lighter for the duration of the race.  You're 3 kg lighter at the start, and at the same weight near the end.  So on average you're only 1.5 kg lighter, so it's only worth 3 seconds.

 

Can you really not make use of any of that additional duel to win back more than 3 seconds?  Are the cars really running up against the fuel flow limit all the time?  If so, then what's all this controversy about Mercedes drivers turning up their engines to fight each other?

 

Earlier in the season in one of the Team Principles conferences, the Mercedes engine chap (I forget his name) suggested that these engines hit 100kg/h fuel flow at around 12,000RPM. That's why you never see them going to 15,000RPM. It's probably not linear, but I think it's safe to assume they're only at the fuel flow cap when the pedal is to the metal (or carbon fibre as it is these days ).

 

I assume by turning up their engines they mean using higher boost pressure/fueling at lower RPMs and more ERS-K when needed. I expect they don't want their drivers to use higher boost at all times for reliabilty as it's still only early days.

[Hollow]

They can choose who will win the WDC but I'm not sure who is their favorite. In any case they will play their cards late in the season.

[David1976]

Engineering the championship?  At this stage NO.  After Spa?  Possible.

[Jon83]

Actually some of the comments by Wolff while answering some questions were rather interesting. I actually thought for a bit that it may just be, an orchestrated effort to spice things up. I know it sounds silly, but with the car being so far ahead as it is, they could start every race from dead last, and could still win by and large all of them. When i originally mentioned that this is one of the most dominant cars, i was told it was the talent behind the wheel, but i dare say that most would not contradict that anymore. They have that much margin. They did get (well, coerce is more like it for all intents and purposes with routine threats of withdrawal) a favour from FIA, so may be they're returning one by making it a bit more spicy. As boring was the complaint some of the fans had in the past 3-4 years, during which time the more popular drivers weren't winning much. I could be wrong on this one, and i'm not willing to bet a crow on this one.

 

You could well be right - I'm just not convinved it is a risk they would take.

 

I absolutely agree about the car's dominance - it is incredible.
 

[AlmightyGod]

This story kinda fits in this thread. Wolff thinks team orders a possibility.

 

http://www.espn.co.u...ry/161083.html