62 replies to this topic

[charly0418]

Today I read an interesting piece on EJ commenting about Saubers status:

 

http://www.f1plus.co...-sauber-to-sell

 

He basically says there's no recovering from the situation Sauber is at and they should sell while they can.

Given their current state and considerable lack of prize money they will be getting this year the idea might not be too crazy.

 

Sauber has always been a team that finishes around 6th place in the constructors, this would net them about 30 million in constructors prize money for a year. This year they're currently in 10th place, which would net them only about 14 million. In additions to this, rumblings in Mexico are saying that Telmex are ready to part ways with both Sauber and Gutierrez as they are losing patience with the lack of results, this would end a partnership that nets Sauber around 10 million each year.

 

The only way the ship could be saved in my view is if Sirotkin and/or Silvestro come in with a huge amount of sponsorship to save the team, obviously both these drivers would probably not produce the results they want however.

 

So given the crisis the team is facing what do you guys think? Am I exaggerating and this will all pass? Or Saubers future F1 status is in big danger?

[Jackmancer]

Sauber will score points this year, and beat Marussia. I'm not worried by that. I think they might have two paydrivers next year, but I don't think next year will be their last, although selling the team would be fine if a suitable buyer is found (like BMW).

[Kristian]

The problem with Sauber to potential buyers is that their base in Hinwil is far away from F1's 'centre' in England, and in a country where motorsport is banned - so there is less commercial value compared to say, Caterham.  But the facilities are top notch and the core of people very good, hence why BMW were attracted to them, but I can't see any other manufaturers coming in. 

 

I can see maybe a half Russian or Middle Eastern buyout, but retaining the base in Hinwil - the team is just too established to go under without trace. Peter Sauber certainly wouldn't see it die. 

[eronrules]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

[george1981]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

I disagree. Sauber is a private team that has punched above it's weight on several occasions. It has launched the careers of many F1 drivers and engineers.

If it went it would be missed.

[MikeV1987]

Sell to VW please.

[Bloggsworth]

Could be a short-cut for a certain American who seems to think that building F1 cars and competing is easy...

[charly0418]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

well that's harsh, I agree they're not a big deal but hey have their history. Plus Peter was the one that gave Kimi his first chance at F1 even though a lot of people didn't think he deserved it

[sheepgobba]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

LOL  

 

harsh but true to an extent!

[Jovanotti]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds.

Do you know how ignorant you sound, how many Sauber fans there are in Switzerland? There are workplaces to be lost (I grew up in a village where a small company produced parts for Sauber and McLaren at the time). Sauber is an exciting piece of genuine Swiss made hightec, it has a much more important status than say Caterham in Britain.
That said, for Sauber it might be better to quit F1 in the current environment and try to get into WEC again where the chances of a collaboration with a car manufacturer are better. Rather that then sell their seats to some oligarch if you ask me.

Edited by Jovanotti, 27 May 2014 - 16:03.

[Spillage]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

That's unfair. I have always had a soft spot for them, appreciated the work that Peter Sauber put in under difficult circumstances. It was great to see them mixing it at the front in 2012. 

 

However, it doesn't look good for them and hasn't for a couple of seasons now. Whether this is their last season.. I don't know. I'd expect them to beat Marussia but their car this year does seem to be a dud and the reliance on Sutil and Gutierrez's money isn't helping, as neither seems to have the tenacity that Hulkenberg displayed last season, and the ability to drag their car towards the sharp end. It's a vicious cycle really.

 

I expect them to be on the grid next year somehow, but they desperately need either a better paydriver or some investment from another source.

[sopa]

A wild guess, but what about such possibility - current GP2 team Russian Time to buy Sauber with the help of several Russian investors and giving Sirotkin a race seat.

[Gyan]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

Ignorant comment. All of them were privateer teams, built and constructed simply for one thing - pure racing. They are the essence of Formula 1 and not only Formula 1, but of motorsport in general. They exist purely to race, which is what F1 teams should be all about.

[Jejking]

I think they'll bounce back from this. Surely they have more chance to beat Marussia in a fair fight if they get the downforce up a tad more and the weight a bit down again. Without starving their drivers plus their good reputation in the paddock (fair play team making some very handy cars) they should make the grid in 15. Maybe with a different engine..

[Frank Tuesday]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

The only team I would be sadder to see leave F1 is Williams.  And it isn't because I'm a fan of Sauber, but rather because Sauber exists solely for the purpose of F1 racing.  Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, Lotus, Caterham and Marussia sell cars.  Red Bull and Toro Rosso sell a disgusting beverage.  Force India is a status purchase for a failing business owner.  Only Williams and Sauber exist exclusively for F1 racing. 

[ElDictatore]

As someone who lives near Hinwil, it would be sad for me to see them go. I attended a couple of fan events, saw the facilities from the inside and have contact to a few working there. They were always very welcoming and fan-friendly, probably a lot more than other teams. So yes, I don't want to see them go. Their facilities are top notch, so someone wanting to buy up the place wouldn't even be such a bad deal. One of the very few privateers left.

 

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

Ironic considering Kimi might never been in F1 without them.

[PayasYouRace]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

I think Sauber would be sorely missed, like I'm sure many miss Minardi and Arrows to some extent.

[eronrules]

oh please ... if i'm not mistaken, most of swiss papers actually slates sauber for their non payment last year ... talking about fans in switzerland.

 

in formula 1, i've seen teams like toyotaf1, minardi, arrows, jordanf1 fold. i've read how they were part of history and how fans cared etc etc, but come next season, nothing is mentioned.

 

one of the biggest problem with sauber is that during BMW era, they grew so big that without that manufacture support, they're dying because of their size. it's like a dinosaur without food. also the location of the team, it's management and history doesn't really attract that much attention from prospective sponsors as proven by their car's livery. without telmex money, they'd have been in deep ****.

 

i'm aware of the history of this team, which gave us many talented drivers including kimi, massa, kubica, vettel. i'm not ignorant, but that's to say the team doesn't hold the pedigree of williams of mclaren that i'd weep if they're gone.

 

maybe the solution is something what jordanF1 did ... sell to a more vibrant conglomerate, inject some flair into it, change the way things operate. sauberf1, williamsf1 and mclarenf1 (to a certain extent) are the last teams to be lead by a single individual. but i think time has come to pave way for some new name to come to f1, like RBR from the ashes of jaguar or MGP from honda. 

[Andrew Hope]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

eronrules bringing the heat! Harsh but this is basically how I see it too.

[ElDictatore]

oh please ... if i'm not mistaken, most of swiss papers actually slates sauber for their non payment last year ... talking about fans in switzerland.

 

in formula 1, i've seen teams like toyotaf1, minardi, arrows, jordanf1 fold. i've read how they were part of history and how fans cared etc etc, but come next season, nothing is mentioned.

 

one of the biggest problem with sauber is that during BMW era, they grew so big that without that manufacture support, they're dying because of their size. it's like a dinosaur without food. also the location of the team, it's management and history doesn't really attract that much attention from prospective sponsors as proven by their car's livery. without telmex money, they'd have been in deep ****.

 

i'm aware of the history of this team, which gave us many talented drivers including kimi, massa, kubica, vettel. i'm not ignorant, but that's to say the team doesn't hold the pedigree of williams of mclaren that i'd weep if they're gone.

 

maybe the solution is something what jordanF1 did ... sell to a more vibrant conglomerate, inject some flair into it, change the way things operate. sauberf1, williamsf1 and mclarenf1 (to a certain extent) are the last teams to be lead by a single individual. but i think time has come to pave way for some new name to come to f1, like RBR from the ashes of jaguar or MGP from honda. 

 

Papers don't really reflect people's views. Amongst motorsport fans here, they are quite popular. But from what I can see, there aren't that many motorsport fans around here.

That said, if someone buys it up, I hardly think that it's a big difference to fans and viewers. It's essentially still the same people and frankly it was quite sad to see that certain parts of their facilities are not used as of now.

[Paco]

EJ is just jealous. He's been spewing stupidity for so long now he has lost all creditability.  He's just sore that he wasn't able to keep his ship a float while Sauber is still in the game.  Sauber has always exceeded where the team should be.  This year was a huge undertaking and probably went super conservative due to all the doom and glomm preseason about fuel and the PU.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if 2015 they are back to the mid-pack fighting scoring regulary in the points.

[dweller23]

EJ is just jealous. He's been spewing stupidity for so long now he has lost all creditability.  He's just sore that he wasn't able to keep his ship a float while Sauber is still in the game.  Sauber has always exceeded where the team should be.  This year was a huge undertaking and probably went super conservative due to all the doom and glomm preseason about fuel and the PU.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if 2015 they are back to the mid-pack fighting scoring regulary in the points.

Jordan has the most credibility in the paddock.

[PorcupineTroy]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds.

Don't want to sound rude, but comments like this make me think you weren't even watching F1 when Minardi and Arrows were around. The small teams absolutely have their place in formula one.

[DaddyCool]

Peter Sauber was a top notch fella, and as many others said Sauber was more or less always a solid midfield team who went for talent instead of bank cheques, they have punched above their weight quite a few times.

 

It's sad to see them declining and it will be even more sad if theay leave.

[Jejking]

Don't want to sound rude, but comments like this make me think you weren't even watching F1 when Minardi and Arrows were around. The small teams absolutely have their place in formula one.

They have as long as they can stay with the big guys at least a bit. Sauber definitely does that, this is their first off-year since 2009 I believe.

[Paco]

Jordan has the most creditability in the paddock.. maybe the loudest mouth but hardly the most credible. Just because u joke around and speak loudly doesn't mean what you say is even remotely on point. He was interesting owner.. but time has gotten the best of him and now he seems to draw up controversy to try keep himself relevant.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Could be. Have to say after Felipe Massa's debut in 2002 this team has been a grey mouse for many years, leaving the succesful BMW years 2006-2008 out that is.

 

Though, it has to be said without Sauber, Raikkonen and Massa perhaps wouldn't have made it into F1, so Sauber has certainly had his value for F1.

[Nemo1965]

May I add that Peter Sauber is one teamboss that was never accused by anyone that he ran underweighted cars during tests to lure sponsors, that he was always honest in dealing with drivers, that I can't remember one person in F1 having ever said anything unpleasant about him?

 

If you would force me to point at a decent person in F1, I would point at Peter Sauber. His team deserves a good ending, even though he is not the boss there any more.

[RuleyRamundo]

I hope so, sack Koba and you should pay for it

[George Costanza]

Could be. Have to say after Felipe Massa's debut in 2002 this team has been a grey mouse for many years, leaving the succesful BMW years 2006-2008 out that is.

 

Though, it has to be said without Sauber, Raikkonen and Massa perhaps wouldn't have made it into F1, so Sauber has certainly had his value for F1.

 

I think they would have made it anyway.

[Anderis]

Sauber has always been a team that finishes around 6th place in the constructors, this would net them about 30 million in constructors prize money for a year. This year they're currently in 10th place, which would net them only about 14 million.

First of all, Sauber's average WCC position since BMW split-up is 7th, not 6th. And then, I'm not sure how things look with new CA, but a couple of years ago you were getting around $30m for finishing 10th, and around $40m for finishing 7th, so I would be surprised if the difference between 7th and 10th is as dramatic as you write. Though, I'll admit I'm wrong if you'll come up with a good source. It isn't mentioned in the article you put in the OP, as far as I can see.

 

You could think that Williams, finishing 9th in WCC and losing PDVSA is in a dramatic situation, but they are going well recently. I'm sure Sauber is capable of the same. But yeah, that lower-midfield teams, let alone backmarkers, are really having tough times nowadays so I wouldn't be surprised if they're no longer able to continue like this. Nonetheless, I desperately want Sauber to stay Sauber.

[charly0418]

 

First of all, Sauber's average WCC position since BMW split-up is 7th, not 6th. And then, I'm not sure how things look with new CA, but a couple of years ago you were getting around $30m for finishing 10th, and around $40m for finishing 7th, so I would be surprised if the difference between 7th and 10th is as dramatic as you write. Though, I'll admit I'm wrong if you'll come up with a good source. It isn't mentioned in the article you put in the OP, as far as I can see.

 

You could think that Williams, finishing 9th in WCC and losing PDVSA is in a dramatic situation, but they are going well recently. I'm sure Sauber is capable of the same. But yeah, that lower-midfield teams, let alone backmarkers, are really having tough times nowadays so I wouldn't be surprised if they're no longer able to continue like this. Nonetheless, I desperately want Sauber to stay Sauber.

 

 

I got the figures from here http://www.hindustan...le1-949214.aspx

 

And 7th place is "around" 6th place like I said, didn't say it was the exact average

[KingTiger]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

What a disgusting comment. Sauber are a very good team that can, at times, create cars on par with Ferrari and McLaren on 1/10th of the budget. 

[Frankbullitt]

With how some of the races could go this year, I wouldn't write them off getting a podium.

 

But being realistic, they need to turn it around soon.

[Myrvold]

Let's just get rid of the teams with 'no hope'. No Torro Rosso, No Sauber, No Marussia, No Caterham. Down to 14 cars! Let's have 3 cars for each team! No more Lotus. 18 cars! Williams, McLaren and Force India resorts to heavy pay-drivers in 1 car (2 for Williams). 14 Drivers that are of some F1 material. Fans getting fed up of three Merc on the podium all the time. The slower teams struggle for sponsors. Williams and Force India pulls out. 4 cars per team - VW joins. We are up to 24 cars again, but only 6 teams.

 

Nah, I'd rather have 26 cars and more 'no hopers'

[f1fan1998]

Silvestro has no money - not for a season anyway. Her manager spent the last of his family money on that recent test with a bit of help from the team. It is a real shame, as word from the paddock this weekend is that she is genuinely respected by the boys, and the team were mega impressed in her speed and fitness. She is the real deal by all accounts. 

 

Still. Even if she can scrape $5/6m together, she still isn't going to save the Sauber bacon.

[Doughnut King]

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

 

Martin Brundle had similar feelings when they were sold to BMW.

 

http://forums.autosp...ents/?p=2179724

[Anderis]

And 7th place is "around" 6th place like I said, didn't say it was the exact average

Well, that 1 place is making a big difference if we have only 11 teams. 1 out of 11 is almost 10%. Sauber only finished 6th once, and never finished higher than 6th in the last several years. 7th is much more representative of what they were showing recently.

 

As for prize money, perhaps we will never know for sure. There are some differences each times someone tries to share how the share of prize money looks like. But according to this: http://bleacherrepor...-and-per-season

Difference between 7th and 10th is more like $10m and that's what I've read once from a different source as well.

 

[kraduk]

Don't want to sound rude, but comments like this make me think you weren't even watching F1 when Minardi and Arrows were around. The small teams absolutely have their place in formula one.

 

 

true they do but in essence he is right, fans wont care for very long if they disappear. Some may reminisce but the sport is about here an now. I do wish the sport would sort out the money distribution though as this teams disappearing like this isnt good in the long term. Thats for a different thread though

[Anderis]

true they do but in essence he is right, fans wont care for very long if they disappear.

I'm still sick of the fact that we no longer have Tyrrell, Brabham, Arrows and Minardi in the sport even if they all had left before I watched my first F1 race.

Edited by Anderis, 28 May 2014 - 12:39.

[kraduk]

Let's just get rid of the teams with 'no hope'. No Torro Rosso, No Sauber, No Marussia, No Caterham. Down to 14 cars! Let's have 3 cars for each team! No more Lotus. 18 cars! Williams, McLaren and Force India resorts to heavy pay-drivers in 1 car (2 for Williams). 14 Drivers that are of some F1 material. Fans getting fed up of three Merc on the podium all the time. The slower teams struggle for sponsors. Williams and Force India pulls out. 4 cars per team - VW joins. We are up to 24 cars again, but only 6 teams.

 

Nah, I'd rather have 26 cars and more 'no hopers'

sort the money and see what happens

[scheivlak]

Martin Brundle had similar feelings when they were sold to BMW.

 

http://forums.autosp...ents/?p=2179724

You should read that statement in the context of that moment though. With that statement, at the end of 2005, Brundle essentially says that BMW taking over means that this is their chance and they can finally be a match for the big guys.

[maximilian]

This year's completely uninspiring driver line-up notwithstanding, I would miss Sauber.  I hope they will be here in 2015, with Simona de Silvestro at one wheel, and anybody at the other wheel, as long as it's neither Sutil nor Gutierrez!

[charly0418]

This year's completely uninspiring driver line-up notwithstanding, I would miss Sauber.  I hope they will be here in 2015, with Simona de Silvestro at one wheel, and anybody at the other wheel, as long as it's neither Sutil nor Gutierrez!

 

Or Sirotkin! He aint good enough either

[turssi]

They could downgrade tô a smaller séries.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

They have a state of the art wind tunnel (which is what attracted BMW to them IIRC). They also have good personnel too. I just think it is about making it all 'click' once more given their constraints.

 

They'll come good once again. 

[Eff One 2002]

 

no body cares ... sauber is one of those teams like minardi or arrows ... like a cockroach that never dies. it had it's chance with BMW ... which didn't work. no body is gonna shed a drop of tear if sauber folds. 

No, what you mean is you don't care. There are plenty of people out there, including myself that do. Sauber is a team that had an awesome debut season in 1993 in which it embarassed at the time long established teams in F1 like Tyrrell, Footwork/Arrows and Lotus, then subsequently went on be consistent points finishers that attracted Ford and became their works team in 1995/96 and later, BMW. The team would be missed if it were to disappear, and I really hope that doesn't happen.  

Edited by Eff One 2002, 28 May 2014 - 21:05.

[midgrid]

Although the BMW part of that is true, the Sauber-Ford partnership in 1995-96 was more a marriage of convenience than anything else.  Benetton ditched Ford in favour of Renault, and Mercedes dumped Sauber in favour of McLaren, leaving the jilted parties to pair up.  And the alliance wasn't very successful, either: the 1995 car was poor - although Frentzen salvaged a decent position in the WCC with an outstanding individual season that ultimately secured him the Williams drive alongside Villeneuve in 1997 - and the 1996 car, although much improved, was hampered by a power unit - Ford-Cosworth's first F1 V10 - which had a power curve full of holes, resulting in a less competitive season overall.  For 1997, Sauber was happy to sign a deal for expensive yet proven Ferrari customer engines, and Ford was equally happy to move on to pastures new with Stewart, incidentally setting a new record for the total number of engine failures suffered by a team over the course of a single season.

 

But yes, I have always had a soft spot for Sauber - it has usually been my second or third favourite team - although my enthusiasm is somewhat diminished this year due to the terrible car and uninspiring driver line-up.  It would be a terrible shame were it to fold, as it would represent the death of one of the true privateers of the sport, and also end an F1 lineage now spanning over twenty years, not to mention the sportscar heritage beforehand!  I hope that Sutil, Gutiérrez, Van der Garde, De Silvestro and Sirotkin can rustle up enough cash between them, or even that a new title sponsor will miraculously appear from nowhere, but it's a damning indictment of the team's current competitive state that scoring more than two points to beat Marussia in the WCC is looking like a very tall order at the moment.

[nosecone]

I want Sauber to stay in F1 just as much as i want Monaco to stay in. F1 needs teams and tracks with a long history. Nothing and nobody could replace them equivalently

[Mohican]

No one has mentioned Sauber bringing Red Bull into F1 in a big way; they deserve brownie points for that alone.