31 replies to this topic

[john ruston]

Notice that Bonhams have the 2 litre Lotus Elite in their FOS auction.

Did either of what I am told the two works cars ever race in this configuration?

Would be ideal for the pipsqueak racing marlarky but presume the necessary papers would be impossible to obtain if no actual racing rather than practise history found.

Sure it's not important enough to be put in cotton wool so it's a pity as would be marvellous to upset those with all the fancy expensive stuff!

[Garsted]

According to Ortenburger's book on the Elite the 2 litre car was withdrawn from practice for the 1959 Le Mans 24 hours, Innes Ireland reporting that it ran out of brakes among other problems.  Ortenburger states that the only recorded outing in 2 litre form was when it was driven by Bill Allen at Rufforth later that same year.  "Shortly after" the 2 litre engine was sold, and the car was not re-united with such a unit until sometime between 1996 and 2000.

 

Steve

[john ruston]

The problem is from my point of view is does it qualify for HTP papers issued by FIA as could be an interesting car to own and race or even rally.

[Bloggsworth]

The problem is from my point of view is does it qualify for HTP papers issued by FIA as could be an interesting car to own and race or even rally.

 

Merely interesting - The engine was too heavy for the car to be a sensible proposition.

[Giraffe]

Merely interesting - The engine was too heavy for the car to be a sensible proposition.

 

"Was" too heavy does not mean "is" too heavy......

[Sharman]

It was entered at Oulton early 60s can't remember who for (David Buxton?), never even practiced. Saw it in the paddock and it looked rather more than muscular, it would have failed a drugs test if steroids had been around back then, 

Edited by Sharman, 28 May 2014 - 18:17.

[elansprint72]

According to the MSA in order to qualify for an HTP, the type must have "competed  Internationally" in period; does practice count as competition, M'lud?

[elansprint72]

It was entered at Oulton early 60s can't remember who for (David Buxton?), never even practiced. Saw it in the paddock and it looked rather more than muscular, it would have failed a drugs test if steroids had been around back then, 

Just reading what Ortenburger has to say... shortly after the Rufforth appearance Buxton sold the engine and fitted a normal FWE. In 1996 the car was discovered  in the US by Charles Levy, in bad shape but with all the LM mods (except theFPF engine) still in place. Presumably when seen at Oulton it had the FWE?

 

Can't see any mention by Ortenburger of their being more than one 2-litre car but.........

Edited by elansprint72, 28 May 2014 - 18:37.

[Supersox]

The car qualifies for an HTP.

Poractice is good enough to prove that it qualifed to take part in an International event.

However it will be classified in the class which it ran in period-as a up to 2 litre sports car-so up against 200 S Maseratri, 718 Porsche Spyder etc ----would you/will you bother?

[john ruston]

Might be worth it?

Would be a very interesting exercise.

[Giraffe]

Given the levels of development prevalent in historic motor sport today, it would be highly competitive for sure.

 

I am aware that you have a penchant for interesting exercises, John......

[Supersox]

On the basis rthat it was not raced at Le Mans because Innes Ireland decided in practice that it was so nasty it strikes me that Rustons well known exagerated   cojones might be just the job to tame the thing.

[Sharman]

elansprint72, on 28 May 2014 - 20:35, said:elansprint72, on 28 May 2014 - 20:35, said:

Just reading what Ortenburger has to say... shortly after the Rufforth appearance Buxton sold the engine and fitted a normal FWE. In 1996 the car was discovered  in the US by Charles Levy, in bad shape but with all the LM mods (except theFPF engine) still in place. Presumably when seen at Oulton it had the FWE?

 

Can't see any mention by Ortenburger of their being more than one 2-litre car but.........

I am possibly mistaken about the chronology because it had the 2 litre engine in it when I saw it at Oulton

 

typo edit

Edited by Sharman, 29 May 2014 - 13:50.

[Garsted]

I am possibly mistaken about the chronology because it had the 2 litre engine in it when I saw it at Oulton

 

typo edit

 

I am possibly mistaken about the chronology because it had the 2 litre engine in it when I saw it at Oulton

 

typo edit

Sharman, you may not be mistaken, as Ortenburger says "The 2 litre Elite...would only actually race once or twice, at least in 2 litre form.  The only recorded outing was by Bill Allen at Rufforth"

 

Steve

[Doug Nye]

During practice racing cars and drivers still compete, one against another, regarding lap times - constituting "competing in an International event".

 

DCN

[Bloggsworth]

Merely interesting - The engine was too heavy for the car to be a sensible proposition.

 

As in "They found a set-up tweak that Colin Chapman missed..." Just as the Lotus 16 suddenly became a competitive proposition in historic races.

[Giraffe]

As in "They found a set-up tweak that Colin Chapman missed..." Just as the Lotus 16 suddenly became a competitive proposition in historic races.

 

Having started my marshalling career in 1968, I attend historic race meetings simply to see the cars that fired my enthusiasm all those years ago in action on the track once again. For the most part, who or what takes the victory is meaningless to me.. I'm happy for wealthy enthusiasts to develop historic racecars & feed their egos if the pay-off is that I get to see them driven today,whatever the result of a race.

[Sharman]

Having started my marshalling career in 1968, I attend historic race meetings simply to see the cars that fired my enthusiasm all those years ago in action on the track once again. For the most part, who or what takes the victory is meaningless to me.. I'm happy for wealthy enthusiasts to develop historic racecars & feed their egos if the pay-off is that I get to see them driven today,whatever the result of a race.

tony

I think you miss Bloggy's point. we who saw them in period were aware of their fragility and unreliability. Chunky was not one to miss an "tweak" he just lost interest when he twigged  mid-engines. What suddenly made the 16s reliable and competitive?. The same thing with this Elite, conceptually a great idea, like transforming an Ace. I am not too sure it was engine size but the general lack of structural strength.... but perhaps Bloggy knows more/

[David Wright]

There is an article on this car in the current issue of Octane magazine.  Apparently Innes was affected both by the death of Alan Stacey a few days before at Spa, and the serious accident of Jonathan Sieff in a "normal" Elite during practice.  When Innes tested the 2 litre Elite it suffered from overheating and he wasn't happy with the handling.  It later transpired it had a rear tyre with very low pressure.  The combination of all these factors lead to him leaving Le Mans.  John Whitmore also tried the Elite in practice (with the tyre problem resolved) and he was enthusiastic about it.

Edited by David Wright, 30 May 2014 - 23:48.

[Jerry Entin]

The 2-liter Lotus Elite that Innes Ireland was scheduled to race at Le Mans in 1960.

 

Ortenburger got the year wrong. Ireland raced the Ecurie Ecosse D-type at Le Mans in 1959. The 2-liter Lotus Elite appearance at Le Mans came a year later, in 1960.  Ireland was to drive it and based on reports, his co-driver was either Sieff or Whitmore. The car was withdrawn after practice

 

A pre-announcement for the 1961 Sebring 12 Hours had Lucky Casner's CAMORADI team with a 2-liter Lotus Elite for Joe Sheppard. The car did not arrive on raceday. Could it have been the same one as the 1960 Le Mans entry?

 

Photo: Willem Oosthoek Collection

all research:: Willem Oosthoek

Edited by Jerry Entin, 01 June 2014 - 01:39.

[Bloggsworth]

If it was a Series 1 Elite, it can't have been much fun round corners, the rear suspension was a triumph of optimism over engineering as the toe-in and toe-out changed as you accelerated and braked. So in a corner, if you accelerated, you got more toe-in and vice versa when you lifted off. The Series 2 located the bottom of the Chapman strut more rigidly. Oh, and don't forget the self-lubricating rear brake discs.

[David Wright]

According to the Octane article, suspension, steering and brakes were derived from the Lotus 18, along with wider wheels.

[Sharman]

According to the Octane article, suspension, steering and brakes were derived from the Lotus 18, along with wider wheels.

To which I can add regarding wider wheels, "not 'alf". See my earlier post

[Alan Cox]

The car found a new buyer at yesterday's sale - was it you, John?

http://www.bonhams.c.../21906/lot/305/

[275 GTB-4]

 
Photo: Willem Oosthoek Collection
all research:: Willem Oosthoek

Love the additional aerofoil/air dam whatever on the bonnet/hood...obviously there to protect the puny windscreen wiper so that it might be usable at speed!

 

PS dash mounted camera noted

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 27 June 2014 - 23:15.

[seldo]

I note that it also appears to be sporting alloy Borrani wires in lieu of the normal steel RWs

[elansprint72]

Also notice the early use of a dash-board mounted camera    Rather than a Rolleiflex I might have favoured one of those Hasselhoffs myself.

[john ruston]

Wasn't me although I was at sale.

I thought about buying it but have been told by the powers that be can only have HTP P papers which will severely limit what you can do with it after spending quarter of million pounds.

Did expect it to make 150 ish but also surprised at low prices of Sports Alta and 135 MS Delehaye Rep.Two bargains if you are into that sort of thing.

Obviously an increase in 70/80's crappy posing GT Road cars. People have no sense of value but that opinion comes from a really old bloke!

[Allan Lupton]

Obviously an increase in 70/80's crappy posing GT Road cars. People have no sense of value but that opinion comes from a really old bloke!

As a genuine pre-war job I'd say you've overstated the age bit.

I also agree about the stupid prices for mass-produced road cars - e.g. almost £60k for a Daimler SP250 even though it's lhd and auto and a similar sum for a Mk 1 Lotus Cortina, also lhd.

[john ruston]

Lamborghini some thing or other 800 K ,not a Muira!

Am not understanding. At least double estimate.

[elansprint72]

Pipsqueak racers with extra-fat wallets.   

[275 GTB-4]

Love the additional aerofoil/air dam whatever on the bonnet/hood...obviously there to protect the puny windscreen wiper so that it might be usable at speed!
 
PS dash mounted camera noted

Also notice the early use of a dash-board mounted camera    Rather than a Rolleiflex I might have favoured one of those Hasselhoffs myself.

I did! I've been duped! (not the first or the last time I suggest)