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Massa and perez collision


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565 replies to this topic

Poll: Who's fault? (419 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's fault

  1. Massa (102 votes [24.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.34%

  2. Perez (193 votes [46.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.06%

  3. Neither - it was a racing incident (124 votes [29.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.59%

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#551 Sumant

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 22:14

This team doesn't have any fans.

 

Well they do have 227K followers on Twitter...



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#552 Sumant

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 22:18

"@adamcooperF1: No change to the Perez verdict, says FIA"

 

kind of expected verdict. It would have been egg on FIA's face if they turned the decision. A decision to penalize someone without interviewing the drivers or looking at the telemetry data would have made the stewards look bad...



#553 garagetinkerer

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 23:07

kind of expected verdict. It would have been egg on FIA's face if they turned the decision. A decision to penalize someone without interviewing the drivers or looking at the telemetry data would have made the stewards look bad...

Not necessarily... i think incidents during the race when investigated don't always have drivers involved interviewed. They do call them in on and off though. It was a boneheaded move by one driver in braking zone, something which the rules have now been worded to cover. I wonder why the controversy. FIA should have reminded Force India that they have agreed to abide by the regulations (sporting and technical), so why the fuss, and penalised them a small amount of money (say $20,000-30,000) for a good measure.


Edited by garagetinkerer, 20 June 2014 - 23:08.


#554 redreni

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 23:34

That's not an argument. That's a fact. Massa turned into him. They kinda turned into each other in a ballet, but Massa was coming from behind.

Must have been a magnetic pull, gravity. Maybe turbulent air. It's them turbos, you can't hear them, Perez must have thought he was farther behind. Dunno what Massa was thinking though.. Whatever, I digress. There's vids on the 'nets of things. Check it out.

Over and out-

 

Either he followed his usual line, or he began to use the full width of the track to defend. His normal line is not to use the full width of the track to defend. So his story changed. It's almost as if he wasn't simply giving an honest account of what he did and why he didn't expect it to end as it did, but rather that he was trying to come up with versions of events in which he doesn't have to accept most, or any, of the blame for the incident.

 

Anyway, it's been discussed to death, and there's been three stewards' hearings and, judging from the photographs, at least one meeting between the drivers and Whiting about it, and I think we can safely say that the vocal minority who don't think this was Perez's fault aren't going to change their minds, and probably won't persuade anyone that they haven't pursuaded already of the merits of their view. Looking forward to the start of competitive running tomorrow at which point, with any luck, we can finally put this one to bed.



#555 JTSaika

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 00:05

Either he followed his usual line, or he began to use the full width of the track to defend. His normal line is not to use the full width of the track to defend. So his story changed. It's almost as if he wasn't simply giving an honest account of what he did and why he didn't expect it to end as it did, but rather that he was trying to come up with versions of events in which he doesn't have to accept most, or any, of the blame for the incident.

 

Anyway, it's been discussed to death, and there's been three stewards' hearings and, judging from the photographs, at least one meeting between the drivers and Whiting about it, and I think we can safely say that the vocal minority who don't think this was Perez's fault aren't going to change their minds, and probably won't persuade anyone that they haven't pursuaded already of the merits of their view. Looking forward to the start of competitive running tomorrow at which point, with any luck, we can finally put this one to bed.

He was following his normal racing line up until defending, in the situation of defending he felt he had more space to defend without moving too far in the breaking zone therefor allowing to make the corner whilst not letting Massa past. Once he made the defense, he straightened his line for the corner however Massa, on fresher tires and faster in the speed trap decided he didn't need any track to pass and therefor hit Perez for no reason other than because he got caught off guard. Massa also knew however that if he went any further down the inside, he would not being able to break so easily and go off much like previous overtakes by the Mercs or in Ricciardo's case, completely lock up. It's a bone headed move clashing with a greedy move. Perez was in great point position and he wasn't going to let off whilst massa saw 3rd in sight so he wasn't going to let up either. I think it's a shame Perez got taken out by someone whom clearly can't shake off his shadows. It's as simple as it gets. You can't obviously move in the breaking zone and that's what Perez ultimately did. He's not being punished for the crash, he's being punished for breaking one of the rules. Both should have gotten the penalty. But oh well, we know how bias people can be so... Never mind. 


Edited by JTSaika, 21 June 2014 - 00:09.


#556 Seano

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 00:39

Massa I'm afraid is still disillusional and dangerous and has been for many years but I'm not sure whether its due to the spring or disappointment..

 

There is simply is no logic in him altering course to the right and moving closer to someone he is trying to undertake.

 

Once again the FIA stewards baffle the world of common sense.

 

Seano



#557 garagetinkerer

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 00:57

He was following his normal racing line up until defending, in the situation of defending he felt he had more space to defend without moving too far in the breaking zone therefor allowing to make the corner whilst not letting Massa past. Once he made the defense, he straightened his line for the corner however Massa, on fresher tires and faster in the speed trap decided he didn't need any track to pass and therefor hit Perez for no reason other than because he got caught off guard. Massa also knew however that if he went any further down the inside, he would not being able to break so easily and go off much like previous overtakes by the Mercs or in Ricciardo's case, completely lock up. It's a bone headed move clashing with a greedy move. Perez was in great point position and he wasn't going to let off whilst massa saw 3rd in sight so he wasn't going to let up either. I think it's a shame Perez got taken out by someone whom clearly can't shake off his shadows. It's as simple as it gets. You can't obviously move in the breaking zone and that's what Perez ultimately did. He's not being punished for the crash, he's being punished for breaking one of the rules. Both should have gotten the penalty. But oh well, we know how bias people can be so... Never mind. 

IIRC, you said first that it was Massa who turned in... and people who're saying stuff, some of them are even venting racial hate... Now, it is defense, and only one driver being punished for mistakes made by both... but that's because of bias.

 

While your opinion has and will vary, but if there was no crash, then perhaps Perez will not have been punished... The rules (specific to this particular incident which were quoted before in the thread) are worded such to help avoid incidents caused by such boneheaded moves. I hope you could just keep your own bias a bit to the side, and evaluate it as neutrally as possible.



#558 JTSaika

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 01:20

IIRC, you said first that it was Massa who turned in... and people who're saying stuff, some of them are even venting racial hate... Now, it is defense, and only one driver being punished for mistakes made by both... but that's because of bias.

 

While your opinion has and will vary, but if there was no crash, then perhaps Perez will not have been punished... The rules (specific to this particular incident which were quoted before in the thread) are worded such to help avoid incidents caused by such boneheaded moves. I hope you could just keep your own bias a bit to the side, and evaluate it as neutrally as possible.

 

I never said Massa turned in?, i stated Massa never turned at all whilst trying to overtake. You are telling me to look at it neutrally when i actually said why Perez was being punished and that i accepted it?, what i didn't accept was the fact that Massa is trying to look innocent when he isn't either. In-fact claiming that only Perez should take full blame is the more bias view. Perez should have focused a little more on where he was in relation to Massa and same for Massa. The only thing i detract now is his breaks issue which still was a problem but not a major one. It still didnt change the actual idea which was to approach the corner in a much more sharp manner as apposed to Vettel in front.

 



#559 garagetinkerer

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 01:43

I never said Massa turned in?, i stated Massa never turned at all whilst trying to overtake. You are telling me to look at it neutrally when i actually said why Perez was being punished and that i accepted it?, what i didn't accept was the fact that Massa is trying to look innocent when he isn't either. In-fact claiming that only Perez should take full blame is the more bias view. Perez should have focused a little more on where he was in relation to Massa and same for Massa. The only thing i detract now is his breaks issue which still was a problem but not a major one. It still didnt change the actual idea which was to approach the corner in a much more sharp manner as apposed to Vettel in front.
 

Read some of my previous posts... i said it was an avoidable racing incident. Usually, in such scenarios there is one driver who's going to be blamed more for causing an incident. This time it was Perez. The problem with the idea you suggest, which was to take a sharper line into the corner, it will always end in tears with such an attitude, and it has a few times for Perez and others around him. There's a good reason why they frown upon moving in braking zone... because it can be very unsafe when incidents like this occur at higher speeds. You may say that there were incidents before where drivers did it, but that doesn't change the fact that regulations cover such now and while previously, it was another matter... A driver is allowed to make a defensive move, using the full width of the track, as long as there's no random moving in braking zones.



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#560 Sumant

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 01:58

Not necessarily... i think incidents during the race when investigated don't always have drivers involved interviewed. They do call them in on and off though. It was a boneheaded move by one driver in braking zone, something which the rules have now been worded to cover. I wonder why the controversy. FIA should have reminded Force India that they have agreed to abide by the regulations (sporting and technical), so why the fuss, and penalised them a small amount of money (say $20,000-30,000) for a good measure.


Umm FIA kind of admitted that they messed up in Canada by agreeing to review the incident with perez and massa...if anyone should be fined it would be the FIA or the stewards for taking the decision so hastly. FIA is always quick to hand out penalties to teams and drivers for small indiscretions..maybe they might want to penalize themselves for this one...

Edited by Sumant, 21 June 2014 - 02:01.


#561 JTSaika

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 03:53

Read some of my previous posts... i said it was an avoidable racing incident. Usually, in such scenarios there is one driver who's going to be blamed more for causing an incident. This time it was Perez. The problem with the idea you suggest, which was to take a sharper line into the corner, it will always end in tears with such an attitude, and it has a few times for Perez and others around him. There's a good reason why they frown upon moving in braking zone... because it can be very unsafe when incidents like this occur at higher speeds. You may say that there were incidents before where drivers did it, but that doesn't change the fact that regulations cover such now and while previously, it was another matter... A driver is allowed to make a defensive move, using the full width of the track, as long as there's no random moving in braking zones.

Either you're not reading what i'm saying fully or you're unable to understand. Either way you're taking what I've said and taken it out of context in order to bash Checo (as always). Taking a sharper line in corners wont end in tears, many drivers do it. What attitude?, he simply didn't want to give the place up, is that now frowned upon?! damn... He wasn't 'moving' in the breaking zone, he 'moved', he did one adjustment approaching the corner. People make out like he started swerving all over the place and yet even though i say that, i still AGREED he shouldn't have done it but if Massa wasn't there, no one would have even cared. It's because Massa charged into him whilst he was doing it did it get him in trouble with the rules, not because Massa is a fool.
Talking high speeds. you complain about Checo's driving even though we had Massa with fresher tires and the fastest car in the speed trap fast approaching a corner and a driver on a one stop also with reported breaking issues but Checo is the one obviously driving unsafe. What of Rosberg and Hamilton then?

It's sad to see such great lengths people are going to now to absolutely prove that Perez is the worse driver on the planet when i hardly doubt anyone on here could even drive an F1 car. We're all experts here obviously. 



#562 CoolBreeze

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 05:52

probably enough is enough. look on to the next gp. 



#563 baddog

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 06:42

 Once he made the defense, he straightened his line for the corner however Massa, on fresher tires and faster in the speed trap decided he didn't need any track to pass and therefor hit Perez for no reason other than because he got caught off guard. 

Straightening your car in a braking zone which is bending to the right is EXACTLY the same thing as turning left in a straight braking zone. It is, as ruled, completely illegal and he received a not particularly severe punishment for it.



#564 automovelbrilhante

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 08:17

This "breaking zone" thing looks like an excuse. Massa is heading towards the back of another car and seems to overshoot it.

Perez had barely moved when Massa got all over him. Racing incident at best. Unless they have data that clearly proves Perez brake-tested Massa or something to that effect. 

Brazil is a huge market. Just saying. 

And people who have a different view are not exactly a minority here. 



#565 30L

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 01:32

This "breaking zone" thing looks like an excuse. Massa is heading towards the back of another car and seems to overshoot it.

Perez had barely moved when Massa got all over him. Racing incident at best. Unless they have data that clearly proves Perez brake-tested Massa or something to that effect. 

Brazil is a huge market. Just saying. 

And people who have a different view are not exactly a minority here. 

 

   Totally agree with you I'm a huge Checo fan but I'm trying to view past that in this particular case and even tho I see Perez moving a bit I also see Massa not trying to avoid him at all, in fact strangely he just steers right into SP, and I know this is a bit late and everything but I just couldn't help posting on the matter as I think all non-checo fans tend to crucify him all the time, specially when he is involved in a contact (Which happens more than i would like  :well: ) and everybody can realize as well how the track bends to the right on the crash site, still you can't turn into a car no matter where the track goes to...

   Also, the voting reflects that apparently, it was Checo's fault, but infact there are more people voting that it wasn't his fault (If we add the votes for Massa's fault and the racing incident ones)

 

   Again, sorry for posting here so late but I just couldn't let go  :drunk:


Edited by 30L, 24 June 2014 - 01:35.


#566 paulogman

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 13:55

Perez changed his direction right into the path of massa.

Massa was one lane so to speak outside of him on the bent part heading into the breaking zone and squared up to be on the inside into turn one.
Not sure of he could have made the pass because he would have been on the outside of turn 2.
Perez is quick and manages his tyres well apparently.
But wheel to wheel he's dangerous

Edited by paulogman, 24 June 2014 - 14:00.