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Massa and perez collision


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Poll: Who's fault? (419 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's fault

  1. Massa (102 votes [24.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.34%

  2. Perez (193 votes [46.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.06%

  3. Neither - it was a racing incident (124 votes [29.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.59%

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#51 toofast

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:29

Open your eyes.

 

Open yours



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#52 ANF

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:29

Pérez probably had to brake and turn in earlier because of his rear-brake problems. Was probably too busy with all that (and Vettel in front) to expect the fairly late dive by Massa. Racing incident. Case probably closed. Nasty shunt nevertheless.



#53 brr

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:30

Open your eyes.

 

Show a precrash screenshot where Massa is alongside Perez.



#54 Atreiu

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:31

Apparently FOM doesn't enjoy free publicity and clicks and mentions. All vidoes I have found have alreayd been taken down. Numbnuts.



#55 ed24f1

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:32

Pérez probably had to brake and turn in earlier because of his rear-brake problems. Was probably too busy with all that (and Vettel in front) to expect the fairly late dive by Massa. Racing incident. Case probably closed. Nasty shunt nevertheless.

 

Nothing to do with turning in, if you have to brake early you should not try and defend that late.

 

At the same time, I assume Williams hadn't told Massa that Perez had brake issues, but even so, most drivers you'd expect you could pull off that move without them moving across.



#56 charly0418

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:33

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

I think its pretty clear. Im a Perez fan and its his faul, but the people here saying he should get a race ban.... lol. Go take a nap



#57 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:35

Yeah Perez' mistake, but the accident would not have happened to Alonso, Button, Vettel and few other drivers I won't mention. As others said: Massa was greedy, I am quite sure he was told that Perez had braking problems. Some drivers always have these kinds of bad luck. Others don't.



#58 Okyo

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:35

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

I think its pretty clear. Im a Perez fan and its his faul, but the people here saying he should get a race ban.... lol. Go take a nap

That's a much better look, thanks.



#59 ed24f1

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:36

Good angle, that is quite damning for Perez indeed.



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#60 Massa

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:37

Open yours

 

 

Show a precrash screenshot where Massa is alongside Perez.

 

 

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

Open your eyes again. Massa was on the left, Perez move on the left before the contact.



#61 ed24f1

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:37

Yeah Perez' mistake, but the accident would not have happened to Alonso, Button, Vettel and few other drivers I won't mention. As others said: Massa was greedy, I am quite sure he was told that Perez had braking problems. Some drivers always have these kinds of bad luck. Others don't.

 

I think Massa had every right to assume Perez wouldn't move like that. And in fact, all those drivers you mention wouldn't do that and if was Massa vs them there would unlikely have been a crash



#62 micktosin

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:38

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

I think its pretty clear. Im a Perez fan and its his faul, but the people here saying he should get a race ban.... lol. Go take a nap

Why did Massa veer right tho? A bit strange



#63 ANF

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:38

Nothing to do with turning in, if you have to brake early you should not try and defend that late.

 

At the same time, I assume Williams hadn't told Massa that Perez had brake issues, but even so, most drivers you'd expect you could pull off that move without them moving across.

Well, I'm not sure he was defending at all. Maybe he just had to take a different (straighter) line with that brake balance. But then I'm only guessing.



#64 speedmaster

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:39

Watched the clip 100 times, frame by frame and it is clear that Perez decided to keep inside to avoid Massa sneaking there. When Massa commited to the outside Perez moved over while Massa had already accelerated to pass and it happened. Whoever says Massa is at fault should go back and watch it frame by frame... It is impossible to know if Perez did it deliberately or something with the brakes moved him to the left... It may not have been Perez fault but, definitively it wasn't Massa ! 



#65 Paul084

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:40

TBH I think both drivers should learn from this as it's not the first time for either, maybe Massa and Perez would gain more by looking at why they regularly get involved in incidents like these. Sometimes it's better to lose a place by being cautious such as Hulkenberg at the hairpin and Kvyat at the chicane than put everything on the line


Edited by Paul084, 08 June 2014 - 20:41.


#66 dutra

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:40

Pérez would not break where he breaked on lap 2 or even on lap 69. Of course he would break earlier. That is what caused the colision, basically. But I don't see any space for a punishment. A typical race accident. Acctually a typical "end of race" accident.



#67 Knot

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:41

LMAO, TWO muppets. It certainly looks like they steered into each other.



#68 dutra

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:41

Why did Massa veer right tho? A bit strange

 

There's a right turn there.



#69 4L3X

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:41

For me, Perez moved in the braking zone. Otherwise there would have been no contact. It's something the stewards ought to look at because moving in the braking zone is hevily frowned upon and this accident is a textbook illustration of why.

 

^^^ my impression too.



#70 KavB

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:41

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

I think its pretty clear. Im a Perez fan and its his faul, but the people here saying he should get a race ban.... lol. Go take a nap

I thought it was Felipe's fault but that video made it clear that the blame lays more with Perez



#71 joora

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:42

Why did Massa veer right tho? A bit strange

 

I'm assuming he wanted to position himself as close to Perez as possible for better  corner enterance.



#72 speedmaster

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:42

OOps watched the clip  above and it is even clearer than the official footage frame by frame... Perez slides left when being passed. Case closed. Now it is up to the officials define if it was on purpose or by any other reason.



#73 Disgrace

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:43

Why did Massa veer right tho? A bit strange

 

Only relative to Perez. Massa was following the racing line. One can argue (outside of Perez's clear move) he should have left more margin for error necessary when racing the likes of Perez or Maldonado.



#74 ANF

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:45

By the way, is Pérez all right? The car stopped so suddenly. Pretty frightening to see.



#75 speedmaster

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:47

Both drivers are listed as ok after being reviewed by the doctors. 



#76 toofast

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:48

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

Open your eyes again. Massa was on the left, Perez move on the left before the contact.

 

Look at the onboard. Massa only alongside at the moment of crash.



#77 Massa

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:49

Look at the onboard. Massa only alongside at the moment of crash.

 

 

Stop reaching.



#78 ed24f1

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:49

27 G impacts for both drivers, very scary. And Vettel was SO lucky as well.



#79 ensign14

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:50

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

 

I think its pretty clear. Im a Perez fan and its his faul, but the people here saying he should get a race ban.... lol. Go take a nap

 

Why shouldn't he?

 

He stopped Massa from scoring points.  Essentially he ruined the whole point of Massa being in Canada.  So why should he not be forced to sit out one race as a more proportionate penalty?

 

In football if you commit a professional foul you miss the rest of that game and the next one.  If you **** someone you miss the rest of that game and the next three.  In rugby if you commit a bad foul you get the same sort of penalty.  You can be banned from an event in practically every sport on the planet.

 

The name of the game is motor racing.  Perez made it impossible for Massa to race him, and ultimately the rest of the field.  If drivers are sent the message that, if you screw someone's race, you will pay a proper penalty, then they won't do it.  Had Senna been banned for a season after Suzuka then we wouldn't have had Schumacher 1994.  Had Schumacher been banned for a season after 1994 then we wouldn't have had Schumacher 1997.  And so on. 

 

Drivers have already been seriously injured - or killed - because of dubious movings over.  It'll happen in F1 at some point unless someone does something about it; and someone as a result will sue the FIA for not taking it seriously.  And their evidence will be the slaps on the wrist for dangerous, potentially fatal, moves like Perez' today.



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#80 speedmaster

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:50

Only relative to Perez. Massa was following the racing line. One can argue (outside of Perez's clear move) he should have left more margin for error necessary when racing the likes of Perez or Maldonado.

No space to error... he was committed to pass and going after Vetel I suppose...  Anyway excellent race for Massa and Willians giving hope for the next ones... Too bad a good frame is tossed and a new one will be needed, hopefully as good as this one.



#81 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:50

By the way, is Pérez all right? The car stopped so suddenly. Pretty frightening to see.

 

I think tomorrow both drivers have to be checked by the doctor.



#82 Knot

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:51

There's a right turn there.

 

There was also a whole car there!

 

LMAO, Massa never, ever fails to disappoint.



#83 ANF

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:52

Both drivers are listed as ok after being reviewed by the doctors. 

Thanks.



#84 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:52

Why shouldn't he?

 

He stopped Massa from scoring points.  Essentially he ruined the whole point of Massa being in Canada.  So why should he not be forced to sit out one race as a more proportionate penalty?

 

In football if you commit a professional foul you miss the rest of that game and the next one.  If you **** someone you miss the rest of that game and the next three.  In rugby if you commit a bad foul you get the same sort of penalty.  You can be banned from an event in practically every sport on the planet.

 

The name of the game is motor racing.  Perez made it impossible for Massa to race him, and ultimately the rest of the field.  If drivers are sent the message that, if you screw someone's race, you will pay a proper penalty, then they won't do it.  Had Senna been banned for a season after Suzuka then we wouldn't have had Schumacher 1994.  Had Schumacher been banned for a season after 1994 then we wouldn't have had Schumacher 1997.  And so on. 

 

Drivers have already been seriously injured - or killed - because of dubious movings over.  It'll happen in F1 at some point unless someone does something about it; and someone as a result will sue the FIA for not taking it seriously.  And their evidence will be the slaps on the wrist for dangerous, potentially fatal, moves like Perez' today.

 

Good point, although I want to wait what Perez said. Perhaps his jink to the left was unintentional because of his brakes.

 

For the rest I agree with you. I've always had very mixed feelings about Kubica's accident and Jarno Trulli's role in that. I find it very strange that the cause of Kubica's accident was not even discussed back then.



#85 Nonesuch

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:53

Really haven't seen enough of it to have a clear idea of what went down. Shame such an incident ended both of their quite impressive races, though. :well:

 

 

Apparently FOM doesn't enjoy free publicity and clicks and mentions. All vidoes I have found have alreayd been taken down. Numbnuts.

 

Yes, imagine if somebody accidentally sees a clip on the internet of the exciting F1 race that just took place! Better to shut that down and hope they tune in to the scheduled TV highlights at 11:30 PM.

 

These people... :rolleyes:


Edited by Nonesuch, 08 June 2014 - 20:55.


#86 as65p

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:53

Perez took Massa out by moving to his left in a straight line.  Asinine and dangerous move.

 

He should be banned for 3 races minimum and FI ordered to pay a fine to Williams.  The penalties in F1 are woeful and do not even begin to address the harm.  And it's been so ever since St Ayrton. 

 

:kiss: It's giving me such a warm and fuzzy feeling to know that Senna will always be on your mind. :up:



#87 toofast

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:54

Stop reaching.

 

Stop BSing. I can agree Perez at fault for moving to the left but Massa never alongside before the crash. 



#88 Hans V

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:54

An avoidable racing incident. By both drivers. They both deserve a thorough reprimand by the race steward, but hopefully the bollocking they get from their respektive teamboss will be a stronger punishment.

#89 P123

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:55

Perez made the move so if there is blame to be had it is on his side.

Glad to hear both are ok.

#90 redreni

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:55

If you don't follow the right edge of the track round to the right to get the optimum line into 1 - if you straightline that kink and take the tight line into 1 - that's a defensive move in my book. The issue here is the lead driver making a defensive move and braking at the same time, because that's taking the space that the car behind, is already committed to. Ultimately I don't think this would have happened but for the fact that Perez was having to brake so early. That's nobody's fault, of course, but if you're braking earlier than everyone else you need to be a bit careful. I can't blame Massa for being caught out by the combination of the outrageously early braking and taking the defensive, blocker's line. It left him nowhere to go. You can't go left there or you will go out of control onto the grass at high speed.

 

27G is a frightening number. Perez's impact looked every bit as bad. Although they both got out of the cars unaided, I really hope there are no after-effects for either driver.



#91 Melchiot

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:56

Jacques Villeneuve called for Perez's licence to be revoked. 

 

 

Jacques Villeneuve also thinks he's a talented singer..



#92 charly0418

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:57

Why shouldn't he?

 

He stopped Massa from scoring points.  Essentially he ruined the whole point of Massa being in Canada.  So why should he not be forced to sit out one race as a more proportionate penalty?

 

In football if you commit a professional foul you miss the rest of that game and the next one.  If you **** someone you miss the rest of that game and the next three.  In rugby if you commit a bad foul you get the same sort of penalty.  You can be banned from an event in practically every sport on the planet.

 

The name of the game is motor racing.  Perez made it impossible for Massa to race him, and ultimately the rest of the field.  If drivers are sent the message that, if you screw someone's race, you will pay a proper penalty, then they won't do it.  Had Senna been banned for a season after Suzuka then we wouldn't have had Schumacher 1994.  Had Schumacher been banned for a season after 1994 then we wouldn't have had Schumacher 1997.  And so on. 

 

Drivers have already been seriously injured - or killed - because of dubious movings over.  It'll happen in F1 at some point unless someone does something about it; and someone as a result will sue the FIA for not taking it seriously.  And their evidence will be the slaps on the wrist for dangerous, potentially fatal, moves like Perez' today.

 

You get a race ban if you crash someone on purpose or use your car as a weapon, not for a race incident. You are reacting to the aftermath of the incident, not to the incidient itself, which is nothing unethical by Perez. Its a racing mistake



#93 AlexS

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 20:58

100% Massa fault. There is no such thing as racing line when a driver is defending from others. Defending means precisely moving from racing line.


Edited by AlexS, 08 June 2014 - 21:00.


#94 dutra

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:00

There was also a whole car there!

 

LMAO, Massa never, ever fails to disappoint.

 

He was on racing line an a split second before Perez too. Then Sergio moved to the left...



#95 ionutf1fan

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:00

Massa was not enough in front to steer right and follow the race line.

It's both fault.



#96 DS27

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:00

Why did the Force India guy interviewed on Sky say it was 100% Massa's fault because no one overtakes at turn 1. What on earth was he talking about.

#97 midgrid

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:01

Why did the Force India guy interviewed on Sky say it was 100% Massa's fault because no one overtakes at turn 1. What on earth was he talking about.

 Because he has an (understandable) vested interest.



#98 Massa

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:01

100% Massa fault. There is no such thing as racing line when a driver is defending from others. Defending means precisely moving from racing line.

 

You don't move in the braking zone. Never.



#99 AlexS

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:03

 

You don't move in the braking zone. Never.

What? Of course you move in braking zone, brilliant race happens by moving into braking zone which by definition is not even fixed being variable to conditions and cars.


Edited by AlexS, 08 June 2014 - 21:04.


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#100 toofast

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 21:04

You don't move in the braking zone. Never.

 

Is there a rule against this?

 

Perez should use more of his head to avoid the collision but doesn't mean Massa has the right to the line ( he was not alongside) or Perez need to stick to usual line.


Edited by toofast, 08 June 2014 - 21:05.