408 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

They did what Tier 1 drivers do:

 

1.  Take half a chance, and turn it into a result.  Nursing a limping car to the podium and making two crucial overtakes to score a win respectively.

 

2.  Match established tier one drivers for performance & do it consistently over many races at that.  (Hamilton and Vettel respectively)

 

Surely they are now in the tier one club, the both of them? 

[garoidb]

They did what Tier 1 drivers do:

 

1.  Take half a chance, and turn it into a result.  Nursing a limping car to the podium and making two crucial overtakes to score a win respectively.

 

2.  Match established tier one drivers for performance & do it consistently over many races at that.  (Hamilton and Vettel respectively)

 

Surely they are now in the tier one club, the both of them? 

 

How big is this top tier going to be? Is anyone being kicked out?

[Kristian]

Rosberg's drive was up there with Schumacher's at Spain '94. 

[grichka]

Kimi out, Daniel in.

[sopa]

How big is this top tier going to be? Is anyone being kicked out?

 

Kicked out? Raikkonen and Button? If they are still considered T1.

 

People live a lot in the moment. We could have a different answer about Ricciardo after 3 years. If he has one lean year (e.g like Kimi on 2008), opinions would change quickly. But at the moment he is driving like a top driver.

 

About Rosberg it is a matter of definition. Is he smart or just lucky (with lack of some speed). Was Prost lucky or cunning to win in 1989 despite being slower than Senna? Depending on how you answer this question.

[ollebompa]

Really impressed by them both, but there have only been 7 races. To begin with they'll have to keep preforming for the whole season and remain at a high level for years.

[thuGG]

Looks like it:)

[Seanspeed]

I had a feeling Ricciardo would impress. Perhaps not to the degree he has over Vettel, but I didn't think he was going to be a runover no.2 driver by any means. So for me, I think my estimation of Vettel has dropped a bit more than anything. Even if Vettel gets back on form later, he's shown a weakness here in his inability to adapt and get the most out of the car like Ricciardo has.

With Rosberg, I admit he's doing better than expected, but I still feel that Lewis is the guy with that bit extra. I think my estimation of Rosberg has gone up very slightly, but overall Lewis is still that one step ahead.

[PayasYouRace]

At the moment, certainly. Not just a result of yesterday's performances. I've rated Rosberg highly for a long time.

 

Your mileage may vary of course.

[kosmos]

I think we have to wait until the end of the season, things can change very fast. But they are very good drivers for sure.

[Jon83]

Rosberg's drive yesterday was tremendous.

 

Top tier drivers? Of course they are at the moment.

[SpartanChas]

In the short term, yes.

[tifosiMac]

I thought Rosberg's performance yesterday was shaky at times, but I thought Ricciardo is proving to be a very good driver, perhaps better than Nico so far in 2014. I'd like to see Hamilton get a return for his driving and see how Nico compares on that level. At the moment I fear we have one driver appearing to do very well in the standings off the bad luck of his team mate. Nico has put in some good performances and Canada qualy was one, but I genuinely believe had Lewis not suffered a brake failure he would have overtaken Nico. He did well to limp the car to the finish, but it wasn't a performance that reinforces whether or not he is a top driver IMHO.

 

I do rate Nico highly though, always have and I would like to see a close battle this season. 

[sopa]

We had this question about Rosberg after his win at Monaco in 2013. Is he now a tier one driver, making it a "big five"? Back then we had Raikkonen also in the big four.

 

Rosberg leaves an impression of a driver, who is just there inbetween. Sometimes people ask a question - is he a top driver? They asked this question already back in the Williams days and were asking in Mercedes alongside Schumacher. But the answer was never convincing. Now he is alongside a "proven" driver on top of his game and the answer is still sort of in the air.

 

From time to time people ask if Rosberg is a top driver, but the answer people give is sort of hesitant. Perhaps that's who Rosberg really is then. The inbetween 1.5-driver. Bubbling right under, almost there.

 

Hulkenberg is another one - people ask all the time if he is a top driver, but never get a convincing answer. Another "bubbling under" type of driver.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

I always knew Nico would take it to Lewis and occasionally come out on top. However, his consistency has impressed me massively so far this year. Traditionally at this time of year he would sort of 'disappear' and be anonymous and then find his mojo again. He did it with Schumacher in 2011 and 2012 (despite coming out on top) and against Lewis last year where he had an anonymous middle of the year.

 

Ricciardo, I was not convinced about. Sebastian is still a 4 time world champion though and it looks like he has found some of his mojo back too. It's close between them as it is between the Mercedes boys. I still think Vettel will edge him towards the end of the season. 

 

Re the Mercedes boys - Nico is really up for this and it really is 50/50

[sopa]

While Rosberg has been around for long enough to really define him as a 1.5-kind of driver, I think it is more open about Ricciardo, since he is newer and there is less evidence. I think there is a genuine possibility Ricciardo could be really top notch. But there is a sneaky suspicion he might end up being a 1.5-kind of driver too, who just happens to be on a roll right now and maximize the opportunities (while Vettel has car problems or loses out with strategy). Like Webber led Vettel in mid-2010.

 

I think we'll get a better answer about Ricciardo in 1 years' time. He is a complete driver in many aspects (good Q speed, race speed, racecraft, general consistency), but could be found out in less favourable circumstances for him. Like has happened to Raikkonen in Ferrari.

[tifosiMac]

Ricciardo, I was not convinced about. Sebastian is still a 4 time world champion though and it looks like he has found some of his mojo back too. It's close between them as it is between the Mercedes boys. I still think Vettel will edge him towards the end of the season. 

 

Re the Mercedes boys - Nico is really up for this and it really is 50/50

When you consider Red Bull are usually competing for 3rd and 4th places, I think the gap between Ricciardo and Vettel is a bigger hurdle than the Mercedes duo even though it is similar at around 20 points. Its likely Lewis and Nico will be competing for top points for the rest of the year and the gap is closable. Vettel has more work to do I predict so therefore Daniel has done a good job so far IMO.

[DarthWillie]

Ricciardo is on his way, Rosberg I don't rate that high.
Like Lewis said himself he should dominate him, not doing that is making Rosberg look better than he is

[Jon83]

Ricciardo is on his way, Rosberg I don't rate that high.
Like Lewis said himself he should dominate him, not doing that is making Rosberg look better than he is

 

 I haven't heard Hamilton say what you have said but if he did, not sure what right he has to think that.

Edited by Jon83, 09 June 2014 - 08:52.

[Brother Fox]

Rosberg is showing this year what I wasn't sure he had, some fight and some mongrel in him.

Undoubtedly quick, but I wasn't sure how he'd go head to head with Hamilton.
I'm happy about this because I think we're in for a corker between these 2.

Too early for Ricciardo I'd say. Stellar drive but he needs to do that quite a few times and in some tough circumstances. His predecessor has 9 GP wins to his name and no one ever considered him top tier

[Knot]

It's far too early to tell about DR.

 

NR isn't bad at all; he's had the measure or equal of all his teammates, but this is his 9th season in F1 and he hasn't set the universe on fire like FA, SV or LH did when they started.

[Anderis]

Of course they can be considered. Nobody can stop you considering whatever you want.

 

I've rated Rosberg as a top driver as long ago as 2009. He leads Hamilton 10-8 in dry qualifying since they've become team-mates. I struggle to imagine it would be achievable for a 2nd tier driver. Maybe he lacks a little bit compared to Lewis in some areas but I'm not sure if that's enough to put him a tier down or even a half tier down. There's no evidence Alonso, Vettel or anybody other on the grid would be beating him convincingly. In qualifying, he is doing better against Hamilton than Alonso was in 2007 against rookie Hamilton. Races are harder to measure but they're usually very close as well. I feel he is giving Lewis a much harder run on average than Button was.

And that is not suprising for me. As I said, I've considered him as a top driver since 2009. As a Williams fan, I was impressed by his consistency back then.

 

Ricciardo gives you some reasons to consider him as a top driver as well. Simillarly to Rosberg, I've seen something special in him already in 2009 and how he wipped the floor with the rest on young driver test. But he surprised me a little more, because I didn't expect him to be THAT competitive against Vettel from the very beginning. But I'll wait and see if it's temporary struggle from Vettel with a new car or Ricciardo is really going to have a measure of him in a long-term.

[Jon83]

It's far too early to tell about DR.

 

NR isn't bad at all; he's had the measure or equal of all his teammates, but this is his 9th season in F1 and he hasn't set the universe on fire like FA, SV or LH did when they started.

 

True although he didn't get into a top car as early as those other guys (rightly or wrongly)

[TomNokoe]

Hamilton has been comfortably faster than Rosberg this year barring complete bullshit.

Note: hairline fracture on a sparkplug
the controversy and timing of Monaco
The first brake failure of his career

7 races does not make a driver. Ricciardo cannot be elevated to be with Vettel.

They are in a group of their own at the moment. Greatness expected.

[Britophile]

Kicked out? Raikkonen and Button? If they are still considered T1.

 

People live a lot in the moment. We could have a different answer about Ricciardo after 3 years. If he has one lean year (e.g like Kimi on 2008), opinions would change quickly. But at the moment he is driving like a top driver.

 

About Rosberg it is a matter of definition. Is he smart or just lucky (with lack of some speed). Was Prost lucky or cunning to win in 1989 despite being slower than Senna? Depending on how you answer this question.

 

Prost was fast, tactical and the complete package, beating the heavily favoured Senna with less support from the team and the engine supplier alike. Just look at the times from the qualifying at Monza that year. Senna 1.8 sec faster on a track that is driven over 70% flat out? That was as blatant an example for Prost being the underdog number two as you could get.

[Knot]

True although he didn't get into a top car as early as those other guys (rightly or wrongly)

 

FA and SV did a pretty fantastic job proving themselves in rather uncompetitive hardware. LH got fast bits right from the start.

[ensign14]

No.  The only tier 1 drivers are Hamilton and Alonso.  Rosberg has to match Hamilton on a fair basis before we can elevate him; Ricciardo is putting Vettel's four titles against Webber into their proper perspective.

[Jon83]

No.  The only tier 1 drivers are Hamilton and Alonso.  Rosberg has to match Hamilton on a fair basis before we can elevate him; Ricciardo is putting Vettel's four titles against Webber into their proper perspective.

 

No he isn't.

 

We surely aren't going to use DR's excellent start to this season to devalue Vettel's championships, are we?

[ensign14]

No he isn't.

 

We surely aren't going to use DR's excellent start to this season to devalue Vettel's championships, are we?

 

The championship was already devalued when Stirling Moss lost it because Colotti had a duff batch of metal.  As a tool for determining drivers' abilities it's as useless as a castrato's.  The Americans say "don't tell me what you won, tell me who you beat."  Vettel beat Webber.  OK, he did it a lot, but it was still Webber.

 

We have not seen what Ricciardo can do properly yet.

[topical]

I've been very surprised and impressed by Ricciardo. But is he a T1 driver? I don't think so. More than anything, his performances just show how overrated Vettel has been, vastly flattered by an appalling teammate and a car miles quicker than the rest. This year we see him for what he really is - a solid driver, but nothing special.

 

Rosberg? He definitely isn't in Hamilton's class in terms of speed or racecraft, but he's obviously more intelligent than Hamilton and with a little luck on his side is proving that he can match him over a longer period. It's a bit like Button and Hamilton all over again.

[Nigol]

I've been very surprised and impressed by Ricciardo. But is he a T1 driver? I don't think so. More than anything, his performances just show how overrated Vettel has been, vastly flattered by an appalling teammate and a car miles quicker than the rest. This year we see him for what he really is - a solid driver, but nothing special.

 

Rosberg? He definitely isn't in Hamilton's class in terms of speed or racecraft, but he's obviously more intelligent than Hamilton and with a little luck on his side is proving that he can match him over a longer period. It's a bit like Button and Hamilton all over again.

 

Hardly an achievment, is it? A little swing on the luck pendulum and standings could've been 161 HAM, 97 ROS, 97 RIC. Just think about it.

Edited by Nigol, 09 June 2014 - 10:18.

[Radion]

No.

Top tier is draging a car to victory/podium when it shouldn't. It's being mentally focused until the end no matter what. Neither have been in that position so far. We can talk about that after this season.

[doc83]

Hardly an achievment, is it? A little swing on the luck pendulum and standings could've been 161 HAM, 97 ROS, 97 RIC. Just think about it.

 

It seems pretty obvious to me that when comparing two drivers we should only count the races without car failures.  So far in those Hamilton has a clear advantage so there is no basis to call Rosberg great.

[OneAndOnly]

For me Rosberg was always tier one driver. 

Ricciardo was always fast driver, and prove this year he can handle the pressure driving with 4 times WDC as his team mate. He's awesome, but let's wait till the season end before we declare him tier one driver.

 

Someone mentioned that we should kick out someone out of tier one. Why?

As for kicking Button out of it, I understand this forum population is mostly from GB, but Jenson Button is way overrated here (and in general, as many English sportsmen) and for me never was tier one driver. The only British driver that's tier one in last 20 years is Lewis Hamilton. 

[paulogman]

no not yet for either. for different reasons.
Ricciardo because we have to see the whole season unfold and wonder if vettel really is not getting the best out of the car.
if he suddenly switches on and starts to clean up then ricciardo will fall in stature much the same as webber is considered a good driver but not from the top shelf.
say there is another incident like what happened in malaysia last season and vettel tries to barge through and take the win any way.
if ricciardo handles him and keeps him behind then yes. he will be among the top drivers then based on win at all costs attitude.

rosberg still seems to be slower than lewis, if he streaks off and leaves lewis for dead a couple times I will change my mind.
seems to me that getting stuck behind rosberg is the only reason nico has won that race in monaco.

[Clatter]

It always amuses me to see people trying to diminish a drivers performances just because the driver they support got beaten.

[Ricciardo2014]

Ha ha, what a claim......incredible

"The only British driver that's tier one in last 20 years is Lewis Hamilton."

I'm astounded !

[2014wdc]

Rosberg maybe...we have to see him in the second part of the championship(where the wdc will be decided)

 

Ricciardo No, for my personal opinion

Edited by 2014wdc, 09 June 2014 - 10:42.

[mzvztag]

Ha ha, what a claim......incredible

"The only British driver that's tier one in last 20 years is Lewis Hamilton."

I'm astounded !

Incredible but true. Damon Hill and Jenson Button came close, though.

[topical]

Hardly an achievment, is it? A little swing on the luck pendulum and standings could've been 161 HAM, 97 ROS, 97 RIC. Just think about it.

Sometimes you gotta ask yourself why luck swings one way and not the other. Hamilton has already said that him sticking so close to Rosberg yesterday was one of the contributing factors to his brake failure. Someone like Rosberg might have hung back, played it more cautious and accepted the loss of 7 points. Hamilton has an all or nothing attitude, which I admire in one way, but sometimes he pays the price for it. So it's not pure luck, it's a mixture of mental approach and factors that are partly within, partly outside his control.

[doc83]

Sometimes you gotta ask yourself why luck swings one way and not the other. Hamilton has already said that him sticking so close to Rosberg yesterday was one of the contributing factors to his brake failure. Someone like Rosberg might have hung back, played it more cautious and accepted the loss of 7 points. Hamilton has an all or nothing attitude, which I admire in one way, but sometimes he pays the price for it. So it's not pure luck, it's a mixture of mental approach and factors that are partly within, partly outside his control.

 

Of course. Spark plugs are also within his mental approach. This is becoming more and more ridiculous.

[Zava]

Hamilton has been comfortably faster than Rosberg this year barring complete bullshit.

Note: hairline fracture on a sparkplug
the controversy and timing of Monaco
The first brake failure of his career

7 races does not make a driver. Ricciardo cannot be elevated to be with Vettel.

They are in a group of their own at the moment. Greatness expected.

so bahrain q3 was a mistake, after all.

[Ricciardo2014]

Incredible but true. Damon Hill and Jenson Button came close, though.

So Damon winning a WDC against Schumacher, doesn't put him in the top tier ?

[ensign14]

Ha ha, what a claim......incredible

"The only British driver that's tier one in last 20 years is Lewis Hamilton."

I'm astounded !

 

I would go further and say there has not been a British tier one driver since 1973.  Mansell was tier 1.5.  Then again, I would say the only tier 1 drivers since 1973 are Senna, Prost, Alonso and Hamilton.  I am still not convinced by Schumacher.  Narrow talent window.  Short sprints between pitstops then only Hakkinen was close.  Neutral regulations and tyre management skills being required and he was midfield. 

[sennafan24]

Prost was fast, tactical and the complete package, beating the heavily favoured Senna with less support from the team and the engine supplier alike. Just look at the times from the qualifying at Monza that year. Senna 1.8 sec faster on a track that is driven over 70% flat out? That was as blatant an example for Prost being the underdog number two as you could get.

Remind me my good man, what happened in the race at Monza that year? Senna did not benefit when it seemed that Honda favored him with engines. But we have been through this before 

 

No.  The only tier 1 drivers are Hamilton and Alonso.  Rosberg has to match Hamilton on a fair basis before we can elevate him; Ricciardo is putting Vettel's four titles against Webber into their proper perspective.

Alonso is the juice, no question he is a tier 1 driver. 

 

Is he in a league of his own though? That is the question I am pondering right now? 

Edited by sennafan24, 09 June 2014 - 10:59.

[Ricciardo2014]

I would go further and say there has not been a British tier one driver since 1973. Mansell was tier 1.5. Then again, I would say the only tier 1 drivers since 1973 are Senna, Prost, Alonso and Hamilton. I am still not convinced by Schumacher. Narrow talent window. Short sprints between pitstops then only Hakkinen was close. Neutral regulations and tyre management skills being required and he was midfield.

Comments like this just show how futile it is to have a decent discussion with some some people.

You honestly have doubts about Schumacher being tier one, that's bizzare.

[danmills]

Do you have to romp every win in style to be T1 material!?

 

Or can you still be just consistent and blitz the odd win?

 

At the end of the day, he who has the most points is world champion.

 

Is doesn't matter what route or path, if you are at the top of the board, you are champion material as you've both been better and handled situations better than anyone else. Luck, skill, chance, ability. It is ALWAYS a varying combination of everything at once.

 

The best person makes the best result out of juggling all of these.

 

Simple.

 

Is Rosberg T1 material!? Right now, it seems so. Yes.

Edited by danmills, 09 June 2014 - 11:01.

[sennafan24]

Comments like this just show how futile it is to have a decent discussion with some some people.

You honestly have doubts about Schumacher being tier one, that's bizzare.

To be fair to Edesign, he did outline a perfectly valid reasons.

 

Not saying I outright agree. What about Lauda? Surely he deserves to be tier 1?

[ensign14]

Comments like this just show how futile it is to have a decent discussion with some some people.

You honestly have doubts about Schumacher being tier one, that's bizzare.

 

Yes I do. 

 

Firstly, consider his opposition; his closest challenger for a while was Coulthard. 

 

Secondly, consider his team-mates; Herbert with smashed ankles, Barrichello who was beaten nearly as convincingly by Button, Massa and Irvine, nuff said. 

 

Thirdly, consider the legislative background in which he raced; Ferrari vetoing all opposition, Benetton running illegal software. 

 

Fourthly, consider Schumacher's own self-analysis.  He was sufficiently insecure to cheat to win titles.  Got away with it once. 

 

And fifthly, look behind the stats and look at the state of GP racing.  Identikit tracks, and in the Schumacher era identikit races.  Go harry flatters for a quarter of the race, stop, repeat, stop, repeat.  Car management was down to a minimum.  The sport had changed for his second coming and he was nowhere.  Can't use the lay-off as an excuse - Lauda left the Cosworth era, came back to the turbo, and kept Prost honest.

 

One of the reasons why we can be sure that Fangio, Clark et al were great was because they raced on the original flat-outs of Spa and Monza, the herky-jerk of Silverstone and Aintree, the funambulism of Monaco and Pau, the sheer insanity of the old Ring and Solitude.  And won on them all. The Tilkedromes might as well be the same track over and over again.  They also won in other things as well (Fangio in rallies, Clark in Indycar and touring cars).  And if you wanted to challenge Fangio in his 250F, you could go out and buy a 250F.  No excuses. 

[ensign14]

 

Not saying I outright agree. What about Lauda? Surely he deserves to be tier 1?

 

Lauda is difficult because in his seventies pomp the driving pool was shallow.  Hunt is under-rated as a driver but lost a lot after 1977.  Other than him, Scheckter, Reutemann et al were not top drawer.  We lost Brise in particular who could have been tier 1.  On his comeback Lauda was no better than Watson, and Prost comfortably out-paced him, but Lauda had more nous.