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Can Rosberg and Ricciardo be considered tier one drivers now?


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#101 danmills

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:09

Any driver who has the potential to win the championship in the right car can be considered top tier in my book - Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg, Riccardo and Button are those. Not sure Kimi has it anymore however.

 

EXACTLY THIS!

Give a man the top tools to do the job. If he does it on the day, he's top tier. Button. Kimi. Hamilton. Vettel. Villeneuve. Heck, so was Ralf Schumacher on his day.

 

Give a man inferior tools and he still does the job consistently, he's a legend. Senna. Schumacher. Alonso. Flashes of Hamilton. A certain Vettel win.

Give a man top tools, and he still fluffs it!? Well... there goes his credibility. Vettel; Kimi and Button have shown that when it is bad, it's really bad. And that is what separates a true top class driver from legend.

 

Vettel without his tools of a superior car this season is being shown up a bit by Ricciardo. Doesn't take his top tier ability and results away, but dents 'legend' status somewhat. We've yet to see if this means Ricciardo is the real bee's knees; and Vettel's success is tainted.

Hamilton, considered superior but now on equal par with allegedly second tier Nico, is being shown up in much the same way. Does it mean Hamilton isn't as legendary as believed; or does it mean Nico is actually underrated!? Different argument altogether.

Kimi is a shadow of 2012 right now. His car is rubbish, and his skill overshadowed. Given the tools, he's a rocket. Take the tools, he's forgettable.

Alonso has consistently shone in crap cars. That's why, for me at least, gets the legendary boot in.
 

In the best car right now, Nico is top tier. If he had done a Rubens and been a P4 driver when the sister car was winning everything, then he is not a T1 driver.

 

I can't help but feel those anti-Nico bashers are just a little sore that he is doing a lot better against Lewis than the previously believed 'pants down floor wiping' that was predicted.

 

I guess I have detracted from the T1 definition, sorry! It's a whole can of worms this discussion. I do agree with those saying Hamilton is the better driver and whatnot. Nico has indeed been VERY lucky, and luck has been the swinger in why he is leading the title right now. But this is Formula 1, and those who have watched it long enough can appreciate that there are MILLIONS of factors, and that LUCK is just one part.

To consistently win races; points; titles and be top class, you need many things and not just a few.

That's why there are many different race winners; but only a handful of top class champions.


Edited by danmills, 09 June 2014 - 14:21.


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#102 tghik

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:09

No he isn't.

 

We surely aren't going to use DR's excellent start to this season to devalue Vettel's championships, are we?

why not ? you get more information as you go along and you get better picture



#103 topical

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:16

Of course. Spark plugs are also within his mental approach. This is becoming more and more ridiculous.

He said his tactics yesterday contributed to his brake failure. Ignore that if you want and live in your little fantasy world where only luck prevents Hamilton running away with the WDC.



#104 doc83

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:17

EXACTLY THIS!

Give a man the top tools to do the job. If he does it on the day, he's top tier. Button. Kimi. Hamilton. Vettel. Villeneuve. Heck, so was Ralf Schumacher on his day.

 

Give a man inferior tools and he still does the job consistently, he's a legend. Senna. Schumacher. Alonso. Flashes of Hamilton. A certain Vettel win.

Give a man top tools, and he still fluffs it!? Well... there goes his credibility. Vettel; Kimi and Button have shown that when it is bad, it's really bad. And that is what separates a true top class driver from legend.

 

Vettel without his tools of a superior car this season is being shown up a bit by Ricciardo. Doesn't take his top tier ability and results away, but dents 'legend' status somewhat. We've yet to see if this means Ricciardo is the real bee's knees; and Vettel's success is tainted.

Hamilton, considered superior but now on equal par with allegedly second tier Nico, is being shown up in much the same way. Does it mean Hamilton isn't as legendary as believed; or does it mean Nico is actually underrated!? Different argument altogether.

Kimi is a shadow of 2012 right now. His car is rubbish, and his skill overshadowed. Given the tools, he's a rocket. Take the tools, he's forgettable.

Alonso has consistently shone in crap cars. That's why, for me at least, gets the legendary boot in.
 

In the best car right now, Nico is top tier.

If he had done a Rubens and been a P4 driver when the sister car was winning everything, then he is not a T1 driver.

 

 

If Rosberg was on equal par with Hamilton he should be 43 points ahead after an even amount of races. Races when both finish 50/50 +   (25 + 18 for Hamilton's dnfs). Basic math.



#105 mclara

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:18

I am sorry, but are you watching the same F1 2014 as the rest of us!?
Pos Driver Nationality Team Points 1 Nico Rosberg German Mercedes 140 2 Lewis Hamilton British Mercedes 118


The only person burying their head in the sand is you! :rotfl:

Yes, Hamilton is probably the faster and more aggressive driver on any given Sunday in a head to head battle. But what does that count for if he is so quick and so aggressive that his car doesn't cross the line!?

I was also the greatest looking man in the world for three seconds before the wind blew my hair and ruined it this morning.

Do they consider that factor when the votes come in!? Heck, did I even get a nomination? I don't think so.

What about Kimi's bad luck in McLaren. Do we talk about excuses and mistakes; or do we let the results do the talking and refer to Alonso as a 2x and Schummi as a 7x world champion!? You tell me...

For just one second, sit back from the excuses of bad weekends; qualifying battles; best haircut; cutest dog awards and whatever other category you want to factor into this seasons title and cherry pick only the things you like.

For one second LOOK at the actual title.

LOOK AT IT!

And come again that 'Lewis is doing a better job' at the moment.

Really!? I mean REALLY!?

RIght now, he isn't doing the better job.

Tell me he is, and you really are a fool!

Nico right now IS a T1 driver.

And so is Ricciardo.


you have no knowledge of formula 1 it seems.
Don't come and tell me that Rosberg is outperformig Hamilton this year just because he some 20 points ahead and Hamilton lost 25 points in Australia.

This is the sport where, by far, one have to rely on the equipment and you come here and tells people that Hamiton is beeing beaten by his team mate because the team could not attach his sparkplug in Australia.

Come back when you have some more knowledge of formula 1.

#106 danmills

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:23

A side thought - how intense will the opinions be should Nico take the title with far fewer wins than Lewis; but more consistent scoring!?

A pair of single world champions on paper.

 

Comparisons to his dad's title are going to go in circles.



#107 sennafan24

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:26

A side thought - how intense will the opinions be should Nico take the title with far fewer wins than Lewis; but more consistent scoring!?

Depends on whether Lewis's inconsistent scoring is on his own head

 

Which so far in 2014, it has not been



#108 Kingshark

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:28

Hamilton and Alonso are high 1 drivers. Rosberg is a low 1 driver. Vettel is a middle 1 driver. If that makes any sense.



#109 danmills

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:34

If you stuck Nico in the sister Ferrari with Alonso, I think he would fade into oblivion. Not to discredit Nico, but that would just show a TRUE top driver in Fernando.

 

Top tier with the tools on the day. Forgettable and average at best without.

 

Much like Jaques Villeneuve when he left Williams. Or Jenson when the conditions aren't wild. Both equally excellent drivers, but extremely temperamental.


Edited by danmills, 09 June 2014 - 14:37.


#110 charly0418

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:41

DR is beating the crap out of a 4 time world champion. I don't know what else he needs to do



#111 Cadence

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:42

The Americans say "don't tell me what you won, tell me who you beat."  Vettel beat Webber.  OK, he did it a lot, but it was still Webber.

 

I'd say beating a 7-times world champion in the same car ranks Rosberg very well indeed.

 

Edit:

 

Just read you analysis on why Schumacher and would say I agree on the following points:

1. Ferrari exercised undue influence with the FIA during his reign as champion

2. Benetton cheated with illegal software

2. Schumacher never had a competent challenger in the #2 car

3. By his own admission he cheated

4. the game had changed upon his return to the sport and he couldn't cope

 

 

That being said, I still think Nico rates very well.  Reminds me a lot of Heidfeld in his consistency.  Winning championships and winning races are two different things and I'm not convinced Hamilton recognizes this. 

 

IMO if Hamilton raced along side Alsono at Ferrari he would not shine so bright.


Edited by Cadence, 09 June 2014 - 15:02.


#112 Astro

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:52

My definition is on an all-time basis.  Post-WW2, Clark and Fangio are in a class of their own, beyond any tiers, then you have Moss, Stewart, Senna, Prost, Alonso and Hamilton.  Yes, I am going there. 

 

Pre-WW2, you have Caracciola and Nuvolari clear of the rest, then in Tier 1 I'd include Rosemeyer, Antonio Ascari and Varzi.  Pre-WW1 the sport is too different to post-, but if you forced me to name one, I'd throw in Leon Thery.

 

Personally, I cannot give an informed opinion about anyone before the mid 1980s no matter how good their reputation is because that is as far back as I can go with the videos of the full races that I have been able to get from the internet. In any case, I don't know how anyone can make tiers between drivers of different eras. I have an opinion of what I consider to be the best drivers from the mid 80s until now, but I can't place them in any particular order. For me they were the best in their own times.



#113 bourbon

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 14:54

Tiers are as about as reliable as teammate battles.  Everyone has a different opinion of who goes where, when and the criteria for putting them there. 

 

On the basis of such an exact science (where Schumacher and Lauda can be considered bottom tier?) I snootily refuse to play.  :p



#114 ensign14

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:04

The sam Hamilton that was beat fair and square by button and cannot shake Rosberg?? Hes a tremendous wheel to wheel driver but if anyone has a question mark over his status its him. His immaturity, lack of patience and siege mentality makes it hars to put him up there with the greats over a 20 round cchip.

 

Things like that can happen for whatever reason.  Jackie Stewart had a poor 1972 for example, the equivalent of Hamilton's mind going away and allowing Button to beat him in one of their many seasons together.  But in an era in which the cars within a team are equalised as much as possible, Hamilton has had a consistent edge. 

 

If Hamilton could sort his head out he would be way, way clear.  But that might go hand-in-hand with his freakish car control.  It's one or the other.  Fangio for one could do both - see how he won Monaco 1950 for instance.  I could say the same with Button; if he could tiger in a rubbish car as well as he handles a brilliant one, like Prost could, then he would be of legendary status.  Maybe there's something in his make-up that helps him be smooth that prevents the ragged edge.



#115 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 15:06

I considered Rosberg a match for anyone long ago. It took ages the spotlight to finally be on him but he´s been performing all this time. Ricciardo, not yet, too soon, hasn´t done enough. But it´s nice to see young talents comming replacing the old ones.  



#116 Alfisti

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:03

 

If Hamilton could sort his head out he would be way, way clear.  

 

But that is my entire point, he is by far away the weakest mentally of the top drivers today, forget tiers, Alonso, Rosberg, Vettel, Kimi or even Ricciardo ..... Lewis is a mental midget in comparison from his silly quotes, wannabe gangsta gibberish, social media fails and the way he mopes around unless she's blitzing everyone. 



#117 HeadFirst

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:09

Personally I don't think Britney and Dan are quite top tier yet. I may have to change that opinion .... soon.



#118 Jackmancer

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:28

Outperforming a car that can challenge the RBR with 160BHP less than it should have... I'm not sure if Rosberg is doing that. Hamilton has been faster than him last two weekends.



#119 goingthedistance

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:39

But that is my entire point, he is by far away the weakest mentally of the top drivers today, forget tiers, Alonso, Rosberg, Vettel, Kimi or even Ricciardo ..... Lewis is a mental midget in comparison from his silly quotes, wannabe gangsta gibberish, social media fails and the way he mopes around unless she's blitzing everyone. 

 

Freudian slip?  :rotfl:



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#120 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 16:43

rosberg has been at points slower than lewis but getting more points...luck, patience, different attitude, probably a mix of those.

rosberg has also been faster than lewis and unable to pass him. This "lewis is faster" argument doesn't really hold any grounds. There are times when one is faster but there's not a lot in it.

 

rosberg is leading by quite some margin lewis now and proving to be a top driver. He's beaten MS also..and that puts an interesting spin on how fast/slow a 43year old ms still was.

 

ricciardo has impressed and is on his way to prove himself as a top driver also. he is consistent, smart, gets the job done and pretty fast. If he proves this with changing car characteristics then he's also a top driver



#121 xmoonrakerx

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:07

i think this thread is going circles :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned:



#122 muramasa

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:15

Ricciardp? :D



#123 ensign14

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:26

But that is my entire point, he is by far away the weakest mentally of the top drivers today, forget tiers, Alonso, Rosberg, Vettel, Kimi or even Ricciardo ..... Lewis is a mental midget in comparison from his silly quotes, wannabe gangsta gibberish, social media fails and the way he mopes around unless she's blitzing everyone. 

 

That's not the point, the toys were barely ever in the Senna pram for instance, and when the pressure is on Hamilton can handle it (q.v. Bahrain when Rosberg was half-a-second quicker yet still couldn't pass).  It's that he can't react to changing circumstances in a race the same way as Alonso or Prost could - he relies on the team to tell him what to do too much.  As we saw at Monaco, sometimes that's not the right thing.  Alonso in the same situation would have been yelling "box" and would have been in before anyone could object.



#124 bub

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:28

Rosberg - I feel he pretty much matched Hamilton last year but he did have the advantage of being with the team much longer. This year he has not matched Hamilton so far in terms of performance and it is too early in the season anyway. I still put Rosberg a tier down from the top tier of Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso right now. If he matches Lewis in performance again this year, he will be tier one in my view.

 

Ricciardo - I have a feeling he is tier one and have suspected so for a while but I will not put him there until he has proven it over the course of a season. Beating Vergne in a midfield car isn't enough proof for me and neither is the less than half a season so far he has had at RBR. Also tier two at the moment, if he matches or beats Vettel in terms of performance this year, he will be tier one in my view.


Edited by bub, 09 June 2014 - 20:44.


#125 Alfisti

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:39

That's not the point, the toys were barely ever in the Senna pram for instance, and when the pressure is on Hamilton can handle it (q.v. Bahrain when Rosberg was half-a-second quicker yet still couldn't pass).  It's that he can't react to changing circumstances in a race the same way as Alonso or Prost could - he relies on the team to tell him what to do too much.  As we saw at Monaco, sometimes that's not the right thing.  Alonso in the same situation would have been yelling "box" and would have been in before anyone could object.

 

Agree re. Senna but he fed on it, Hamilton doesn't, he clearly doesn't. He makes mistakes and gets sulky. He doesn't have a lot of luck i'll grant him that but you can't have Hamilton in your post war top 5 and not rate Rosberg or Button as one of the better drivers of their generation (I don't think they are TBH, just solid drivers). 

 

If Hamilton is that good, he doesn't qualify P2 on his favourite track to a career mid fielder. This whole shamozzle in Montreal would have been avoided if he just qualified as fast as he thinks he is so he gets to T1 1st and doesn't destroy his car following a hot Mercedes all arvo. 



#126 FastnLoud

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:42

Rosberg's drive was up there with Schumacher's at Spain '94. 

 

Which drive was that? You talking about the one in Canada where he constantly locked up and nearly binned it into the wall

 

It was not his greatest driver but he did well to finish second, the Mercedes is just so quick in S1 and S2 which is why he managed to keep the lead for as long as he did against Perez who had no drs



#127 bub

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:53

But that is my entire point, he is by far away the weakest mentally of the top drivers today, forget tiers, Alonso, Rosberg, Vettel, Kimi or even Ricciardo ..... Lewis is a mental midget in comparison from his silly quotes, wannabe gangsta gibberish, social media fails and the way he mopes around unless she's blitzing everyone. 

 

None of those things necessarily mean he not a top driver or is mentally weaker than the other top drivers. Button who raced alongside Hamilton said (and the results and performances back him up) Lewis usually bounces back well from disappointment. That is a sign of strength. He also performed very well in 2012 in difficult circumstances.


Edited by bub, 09 June 2014 - 17:54.


#128 E.B.

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 17:59

I initially thought the answer was a resounding and obvious "no", but having read the thread and learnt that there can be a tier zero, as well as upper, middle and lower subcategories of tier one, I'm just all confused. Bit like when Division One became the second tier of English football.

Edited by E.B., 09 June 2014 - 17:59.


#129 Nemo1965

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 18:02

 

If Hamilton could sort his head out he would be way, way clear.  

 

First of all: I don't believe that Hamiltons achievements are so much influenced by his head, his dog, his mistress or his tattoo's. To me he looks to have learned a lot from 2011, he has not put a wheel wrong in 2014 (not really). I think his relentless pursuit of Nico in Montreal was perhaps his first 'mistake' of 2014 (though he followed the directions of his engineer). 

 

And second of all: if Hamilton is a little bit wilder, a bit more tempestuous than Button or Rosberg, that is also what sometimes makes him special. Lewis will sometimes just take a risk and reach a speed or time where Rosberg or Button could also arrive but with much more forethought. That is fantastic, but sometimes ofcourse the risk will not pay off. Button will sometimes dilly-dally at the start. Rosberg sometimes 'sits' too much during the race. Hamilton will go for the place... which sometimes is not there.

 

Hamilton is no Button, Rosberg and vice-versa. It will only drive one crazy to think: 'Oh if only Hamilton would have the mentality of Button.' If he would, he would not be Hamilton. 


Edited by Nemo1965, 09 June 2014 - 18:03.


#130 ATM

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 18:59

This season, I suppose we can say that ROS-HAM and RIC-VET are indeed tiers. Not necessarily through the standings current points, but by what they have showed on track, whether they finished the race or not. Just hope that the teams will not impose multi-21 orders any time soon. 



#131 sennafan24

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 19:11

i think this thread is going circles :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned: :stoned:

Much like F1 cars are stereotyped to do   ;)



#132 sopa

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 19:50

I would go further and say there has not been a British tier one driver since 1973.  Mansell was tier 1.5.  Then again, I would say the only tier 1 drivers since 1973 are Senna, Prost, Alonso and Hamilton.  I am still not convinced by Schumacher.  Narrow talent window.  Short sprints between pitstops then only Hakkinen was close.  Neutral regulations and tyre management skills being required and he was midfield. 

 

I respect that you are an experienced F1 fan, but putting Schumacher below someone like Hamilton doesn't make sense at all, in fact any sense at all. Sorry, impossible to agree with that view. Regardless of how much you try to argue about "Schumacher's favoritism" and the "pure talent" of the other blokes. I feel you are viewing all this only from one angle, while leaving others aside. Same thing with Vettel. Some people indeed like "pure racers" like Senna and Hamilton, so they naturally lean towards those drivers and feel they are "superior", because they "leave an impression of being fast(est)". But that's only part of the game.

 

The thing is based on circumstances there are quite a few drivers, who can be absolutely top notch. And that's why we ask these genuine questions whether they are top-notch, because in some periods they are top tiers. Raikkonen was in McLaren. Even if he isn't now. Ricciardo right now is top-notch, let's see how long it lasts. Vettel was top-notch in 2010-2013. And he is going well too right now, just been a bit unlucky in Monaco and Canada. Just like people like to talk about the unluckiness of Hamilton.


Edited by sopa, 09 June 2014 - 19:53.


#133 sopa

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:05

The concept of tiers is silly, unless the definition is that in F1 all the drivers are literally in the top tier of open wheel racing.

 

 

That's true that "in nature" there are no tiers. Because everything is flexible. One day you win by 0.5 secs, the next you lose by 0.3, then again you win by 0.2s. If some guys are Tier 1, it sounds like they would clock equal times. Difference of 0.0 seconds. The next Tier would be exactly 0.5 secs slower, always.:p But as we know, it never works like that.

 

So any kind of classification is temporary. Because in any given moment or even periods where there is a number top-notch drivers (loose term), because they are at peak form and really delivering results (whatever they are based on car). The question is how long it lasts. Even after half a year there could be another "group of top drivers".

 

Despite tiers not existing, people want to classify drivers somehow to understand, how they perform in relation to each other. And we are trying to be flexible and create "mid-tiers" like 1.5. But even that doesn't give a full picture. And you also can't fix that, say, Alonso is 1.0, Hamilton 1.2, etc. Because that is not set in stone either. Give it half a year and you'll have a different situation.

 

For the first seven races of 2014 Ricciardo has been "top tier". I hope that whenever he has a bad streak of performances people won't come out of woodworks and say "I always thought he was overrated and rubbish and only made good by Vettel having problems all the time."  But unfortunately whenever Dani has a bad period, people will come out and say exactly that.



#134 FenderJaguar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:08

my own opinion, no, they are not there yet, but one can win races and a championship with other qualities and a good car and circumstances, they might get there although I think drivers like Vettel and Alonso will more often than not be ahead.



#135 sopa

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:09

Any driver who has the potential to win the championship in the right car can be considered top tier in my book - Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg, Riccardo and Button are those. Not sure Kimi has it anymore however.

 

Raikkonen however fits perfectly into the group of "potential of winning the championship in the right car". The thing is currently he doesn't have the right car, for himself. Look at his Lotus seasons, and they were as recently as last year and before that.



#136 Atreiu

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:15

That honestly depends on how low or high the cut to the tier 1 club is placed. If someone thinks results within the last 7 races are enough, so be it. Of course, it 7 races are enough to have someone join, it surely would be enough to have others drop out...


Edited by Atreiu, 09 June 2014 - 20:16.


#137 sopa

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:22

I initially thought the answer was a resounding and obvious "no", but having read the thread and learnt that there can be a tier zero, as well as upper, middle and lower subcategories of tier one, I'm just all confused. Bit like when Division One became the second tier of English football.

 

Confused? Well, that's the flexible nature of rating F1 drivers. :p Can't get around subcategories, unless we make "upper tier 1" as tier 1, "mid tier 1" as tier 2 and "lower tier 1" as tier 3.:p

 

Depends, what T1 is for you to answer this question. If you are looking for a selected group of all-time legends, then Rosberg isn't there. Even if he has great cars for many years to come, racks up lots of wins and maybe a championship or two, it doesn't look like he would ever be compared to Fangio and Schumacher. Ricciardo has a bit more chance, but for that he'd need to keep up this performance basically for the rest of his career.



#138 f1RacingForever

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:30

I would say no. I know he has been impressive this year but for me he just lacks that special something. Don't know what to call it but we see it with Hamilton and Alonso and i don't see it with Rosberg.



#139 taran

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 20:33

I think this whole discussion is about comparing apples with oranges. Different drivers use different skills to achieve success. Outright speed counts for nothing if another driver outhinks you to victory. And different skills work with different formats which can see formerly great drivers appear ordinary. But does that mean they were always ordinary? And what if age diminishes their skills? If Rosberg is denied star status because Hamilton is faster, why is Alonso lauded? After all, he is not the outright fastest but known for his consistency and determination....

 

In the end, the only people who really know who the real stars/tier 1 are the insiders, the team managers hiring the drivers. Back in 1982, when I first started following F1, Piquet, Prost, Villeneuve and Lauda were propably the ultimate stars. The drivers which every team wanted to sign.

 

Over the years, that changed with Senna, Rosberg, Alesi, Mansell et all joining the club and others fading. Some drivers never gained this status, like Damon Hill. Despite his many wins, few teams would have broken the bank to sign him. While Schumacher could sign his own cheque....

 

So currently, who are the drivers any team would love to have? Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. The others are (currently) nice to have but not the stars whose signing show a different alignment in F1.

That will change over time but this is the current tier 1 IMO.



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#140 LimerockandtheGlen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:13

First time throwing a post out but in regard to Schumi...........never a big fan of though I must say the thought process on him tends to be blinded by personal feelings or lack of sportsmanship on his part. I am guilty of both but as I get older and I read every f1 book I can get my hands on regarding all aspects of the sport and drivers I remember back watching and talking about the "tiers" with friends and family. I think of estoril, fighting with Prost threw the last win in China in 06. An f1 career that spans that amount of time and the results threw 16 years are quite mind blowing and I never see that discussed here. 1991-2006, the amount of luck and cheating needed to sustain podiums and wins against many champions for that long just lacks, its not real. Rosberg and Daniel have many years ahead of them its to early to judge but think without emotion on Schumachers career and it is quite amazing and deserves a more in depth look than Ferrari"fia", cheating and teamates as a description of his f1 accomplishments. 2010-2012, another story


Edited by LimerockandtheGlen, 09 June 2014 - 22:15.


#141 George Costanza

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:32

I would go further and say there has not been a British tier one driver since 1973.  Mansell was tier 1.5.  Then again, I would say the only tier 1 drivers since 1973 are Senna, Prost, Alonso and Hamilton.  I am still not convinced by Schumacher.  Narrow talent window.  Short sprints between pitstops then only Hakkinen was close.  Neutral regulations and tyre management skills being required and he was midfield. 

 

Seriously about Schumacher? I hope not.

Midfield? Even before refuelling he was beating Ayrton in 1992 and giving Prost and Ayrton a run for their money in 1993.

And a narrow talent window? The man raced everything, 6 speed manual gearbox, to semi-automatic to fully automatic gearboxes and was able to quite win a lot.

 

And when he was at Ferrari, he was under pressure that we can't even dream of and even drivers today cannot compare, not even Fernando Alonso himself. His 2000 season was one for the ages and because of that extreme pressure, he got it right for Ferrari.

 

I find it hard to believe that Lewis is"better" than Schumacher in your view, yet  he quite fall short of Michael's consistency. Skills and Talent wise, they are equal, only Ayrton was better in that regard. Prost perhaps same as the three.

 

But the hardest working driver is no doubt, Michael Schumacher.


Edited by George Costanza, 09 June 2014 - 22:57.


#142 LimerockandtheGlen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:43

Seriously about Schumacher? I hope not.

Midfield? Even before refuelling he was beating Ayrton in 1992 and giving Prost and Ayrton a run for their money in 1993.

And a narrow talent window? The man raced everything, 6 speed manual gearbox, to semi-automatic to fully automatic gearboxes and was able to quite win a lot.

 

And when he was at Ferrari, he was under pressure that we can't even dream of and even drivers today cannot compare, not even Fernando Alonso himself. His 2000 season was one for the ages and because of that extreme pressure, he got it right for Ferrari.I just browsed threw the Christopher Hilton book which describes his race by race career in detail and the consistent pace shown for sixteen years makes one rethink. From the first to last race was amazing. I never liked the man but what he accomplished over that time period...............mindblowing.



#143 LimerockandtheGlen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:44

Sorry George I posted on top of you.



#144 George Costanza

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:46

Ferrari now is not Ferrari then.  Ferrari then could have had the Brawn diffuser thrown out.  Ferrari then could have had the Red Bull wings thrown out.  As we know Ferrari then had the McLaren double brake thrown out; they had the Ilmor engine thrown out; they had the Michelin tyres thrown out. 

 

Alonso is doing something Schumacher never did at Ferrari.  He is beating a driver of world champion calibre.

 

Yeah, I suppose Schu would have never beaten Fred if they had been team-mates. Take this: a 37 year old Schumacher nearly beats a vintage 2006 prime Fred until the last race in roughly equal cars.

 

And we know that 2006 season was Schu's weakest for Ferrari.....



#145 turssi

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:46

I think we have to wait until the end of the season, things can change very fast. But they are very good drivers for sure.


This.

#146 George Costanza

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:47

Sorry George I posted on top of you.

 

It's ok, sir.



#147 Mauseri

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:51

DR is beating the crap out of a 4 time world champion. I don't know what else he needs to do

Rosberg did the same with a 7 times champion.

 

People said Schumi was past of his prime, but suddendly Vettel kind of looks past of his prime as well.

 

Rosberg has done well keepin up with Hamilton, maybe even better than Button, who happened to win a championship when suddendly finding himself in the best car. Having said that I think Button scores better in the midfield than Rosberg, but the situation of a dominant car suits Rosberg well to challenge Hamilton on almost equal basis.


Edited by Mauseri, 09 June 2014 - 22:55.


#148 George Costanza

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:53

Never had the magic? How do describe the last 4 years of acheiving more than his cars should be capable of? That is easily as good as Michaels best years and actually surpasses them because of the higher level of competition. Where was his spain 1996? How about Malaysia 2012 when he won with a car that qualified 10th of the grid, compared to Michaels 3rd of the grid in the second best car at spain 96?

 

Alonso is easily tier 1. Hamilton has tier 1 talent but lacks the head. Rosberg is a good driver but really appears better than he is because of circumstances. Ricciardo its its too early to tell.

 

The 1996 Ferrari was easily the worst Ferrari in the last 20 years.... Eddie said it was just garbage.... And we know Eddie doesn't wince at words. Except for the current 2014 car.

 

Fred's 2012 was his finest yet and there is no doubt. But he doesn't same "magic" as Michael did in 1996 or the 1998 seasons where it was all push, push, push and speed. Fred's magic comes from his sheer will and intelligence to win. He's probably a smarter driver than Michael is, but faster? I don't think so.


Edited by George Costanza, 09 June 2014 - 22:54.


#149 George Costanza

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:56

Yeah Sepang 2012, that's all people can say, you can count his races remember for eternity on one hand. Schumacher produced races like that every year. Consistency wise I think Alonso ist better than Michael 

 

I would agree to extent. Pure pace I think Michael wins; Ayrton would beat them all on pure speed.



#150 Farhannn15

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:59

At the end of the day I'd place these guys in Tier A which consists of Seb, Nico H, Romain, Kimi and Jenson who I feel is underrated. His one lap pace isn't as good as these guys perhaps but his race craft makes up for it.