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Can Rosberg and Ricciardo be considered tier one drivers now?


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#151 LimerockandtheGlen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 23:08

" How Michael drove that car I'll never know, it really impressed me. I was afraid to turn the steering wheel because you didnt know if it would turn immediately, half a second or in a second. you had no idea what it would do. He drove it on every millimeter of the road. i couldn't stand getting into it. He won three races, which is one of the greatest achievements in motor racing history. he had four pole positions with it and I stood there in awe of his performance that year" lol Eddie Irvine on 1996


Edited by LimerockandtheGlen, 09 June 2014 - 23:08.


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#152 George Costanza

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 23:10

" How Michael drove that car I'll never know, it really impressed me. I was afraid to turn the steering wheel because you didnt know if it would turn immediately, half a second or in a second. you had no idea what it would do. He drove it on every millimeter of the road. i couldn't stand getting into it. He won three races, which is one of the greatest achievements in motor racing history. he had four pole positions with it and I stood there in awe of his performance that year" lol Eddie Irvine on 1996

 

That's what I was getting at before. Good job on the quote.

 

The '96 Ferrari was the worse Ferrari made in the last 20 years, save the F14T of current one, which is clearly a bad seed. 1996 F310 and F2012 are probably in the same category. If we consider speed and realabilty... 96 is by far the worse. Eddie had 8 retirements in a row.


Edited by George Costanza, 09 June 2014 - 23:16.


#153 LimerockandtheGlen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 23:17

That's what I was getting at before. Good job on the quote.

 

The '96 Ferrari was the worse Ferrari made in the last 20 years, save the F14T of current one, which is clearly a bad seed. 1996 F310 and F2012 are probably in the same category.

I've always been a fan of F1 not any driver. The thing about Schumi and Senna to an extent is that people throw around basic negative facts and judge entire careers on them. Many are true but in the big picture Schumachers career was amazing. Just like all the greats.



#154 LimerockandtheGlen

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 23:18

My father was not a fan of Senna but at the same time my father realized the unreal sheer speed the man had. F1 careers are not as simple as peoples personal bias.



#155 Jimisgod

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:32

The Ferrari of this year and of 2011 are/were slower than 1996. It was unreliable and inconsistent, but ultimately capable of winning several times; more like the 2009 Mclaren.

#156 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:40

It's like the "aliens" concept from MotoGP, and there we can see that Dani Pedrosa can hardly be one considering he is not even close to a match for his young teammate. Yet a few short years ago he was clearly thought to be so.

 

A simple conclusion is that Honda didn't win anything because Pedrosa is not a tier one rider...  Stoner and Marquez are hence all of a sudden their extra ability is enough to push Honda to the top...  (meanwhile Pedrosa is still not dominating the championship with a championship-calibre bike...)



#157 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:43

Ricciardp? :D

 

iPad  :blush:



#158 v@sh

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:49

Both drivers, not at this stage.

 

Rosberg - you always know that Hamilton on ultimate pace is one or two tenths quicker (much like the same it was when Lewis was vs. Button). Right now, even if he is leading Hamilton, I would think it standings would be quite different had Hamilton finished both his races. He is solid everywhere else. Also I have never seen Rosberg really charge through the field before like the other tier 1 drivers.

 

Ricciardo - it's too early to tell, however, it looks like he has the ingredients to do so. If he beats Seb over the course of this season I would put him definitely up there or close to tier one regardless of where the car stands right now. Problem is that we haven't seen him prove it over a long period of time purely because he hasn't had the opportunities until now to be in a car capable of challenging for podiums on a regular basis.

 

What's definite is both drivers are definitely at least at the very minimum are in the category below the big three (Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel).


Edited by v@sh, 10 June 2014 - 01:52.


#159 Atreiu

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:54

Schumacher was greatly favoured by the sprint racing format between 94 and 2006, but he is definitely tier 1. He was immediately competitive in 1991 and instrumental in making Benetton a top team. The he repeated it at Ferrari, whose choice of teammates reflected how much faith they had in him.

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#160 George Costanza

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:16

The Ferrari of this year and of 2011 are/were slower than 1996. It was unreliable and inconsistent, but ultimately capable of winning several times; more like the 2009 Mclaren.

 

Only in the right hands. I doubt any driver except for Fernando Alonso, would be able to what Michael did in 1996.

 

I agree, 2014 is much slower than 1996.

 

2011 is a bit of a toss up. 2012 was like 1996 for sure, I think Fred certainly drove better in 2012 when compared with Schu's 1996.


Edited by George Costanza, 10 June 2014 - 03:17.


#161 pokerkid

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:19

The 1996 Ferrari was easily the worst Ferrari in the last 20 years.... Eddie said it was just garbage.... And we know Eddie doesn't wince at words. Except for the current 2014 car.

 

Fred's 2012 was his finest yet and there is no doubt. But he doesn't same "magic" as Michael did in 1996 or the 1998 seasons where it was all push, push, push and speed. Fred's magic comes from his sheer will and intelligence to win. He's probably a smarter driver than Michael is, but faster? I don't think so.

 

The 96 Ferrari scored 4 poles, and in the first race of the season Irvine quaified 3rd on the grid. Speed wise it was close to second best, probably close behind Benetton. Alonso has not scored 4 dry poles in almost 5 years at Ferrari, and all his ferrari's have been worse than the 96 one apart from 2010. How on earth do you think he has squeezed the amazing results at Ferrari in such slow cars if not pushing pushing pushing. Its an identical situation apart from Alonso having much more competiton. As usual Alonso's achievments get diminished.


Edited by pokerkid, 10 June 2014 - 03:22.


#162 George Costanza

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:27

The 96 Ferrari scored 4 poles, and in the first race of the season Irvine quaified 3rd on the grid. Speed wise it was close to second best, probably close behind Benetton. Alonso has not scored 4 dry poles in almost 5 years at Ferrari, and all his ferrari's have been worse than the 96 one apart from 2010. How on earth do you think he has squeezed the amazing results at Ferrari in such slow cars if not pushing pushing pushing. Its an identical situation apart from Alonso having much more competiton. As usual Alonso's achievments get diminished.

 

Yeah, and 2012, Fred had 3 poles in a car that is like the 1996 Ferrari, actually might be a little bit better due to realabity...  Eddie couldn't do a thing in it, sure he beat Michael, and so did Felipe when he raced vs Fred from time to time.

 

Benetton was way quicker than Ferrari. The drivers sure didn't help, they were past their prime, except for Jean Alesi, but even Alesi's talent was no Michael.  Michael in the '96 and '97 Benetton is a another WDC or two for him. Even in '97, McLaren was gaining speed with Williams and Benetton.

 

Fred's achievements in 2012, 2013 for Ferrari are very well known and we know what he can do.

 

Like I said, the only driver comparable to Michael himself would be Fred.

You talk about competition? If there had been no Michael, the 1990s would have been one heck of a decade for F1 champions as well as the 2000s. He made the field look "average".

 

 

Fred's problem is that there is no one at Ferrari like Ross Brawn management.


Edited by George Costanza, 10 June 2014 - 03:38.


#163 Mercedestorque1

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:51

He said his tactics yesterday contributed to his brake failure. Ignore that if you want and live in your little fantasy world where only luck prevents Hamilton running away with the WDC.

determination is what will win Lewis the championship not  this year, he overhauled Rosberg once and he will do it again



#164 Mercedestorque1

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:55

Riccardo definitely has alot of potential! i always liked his racing skills even from the Torro Rosso days!



#165 Nemo1965

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:27

The 96 Ferrari scored 4 poles, and in the first race of the season Irvine quaified 3rd on the grid. Speed wise it was close to second best, probably close behind Benetton. Alonso has not scored 4 dry poles in almost 5 years at Ferrari, and all his ferrari's have been worse than the 96 one apart from 2010. How on earth do you think he has squeezed the amazing results at Ferrari in such slow cars if not pushing pushing pushing. Its an identical situation apart from Alonso having much more competiton. As usual Alonso's achievments get diminished.

 

Good post. Actually I am rather sure the 1977 Ferrari was the worst Ferrari to win Grand Prix, if you look at facts like startingpositions.

 

(Sorry to add an argumentem authoritatem furthermore: Gilles Villeneuve, the man who could haul a brick to a victory if he was on one of his days, said the Ferrari 312 T2 was the worst car he had ever driven and that he could not imagine how Lauda could win anything in it. I will take Villeneuve's opinion over Irvine's any day)



#166 Rinehart

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:41

That would almost half an F1 grid. Top tier means the type of drivers that come along once a decade. Please don't cheapen the phrase.

The authority on what phrases must mean has spoken.  :rolleyes:

 

In my book, top tier means top drivers of the current generation. A Great means drivers that go on to be considered amongst the very best of all time (these perhaps come along per decade, but I'm not counting). The idea (lazy logic) that half the grid can win a title in the Merc "cheapens" (to borrow your phrase) the WDC. The top 6 would beat all the others on a head to head, I'm pretty sure. Some people forget that in a WDC challenging car, your going to have a pretty handy teammate...


Edited by Rinehart, 10 June 2014 - 08:42.


#167 Rinehart

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:44

A side thought - how intense will the opinions be should Nico take the title with far fewer wins than Lewis; but more consistent scoring!?

A pair of single world champions on paper.

 

Comparisons to his dad's title are going to go in circles.

The object is to score the most points. How they get there is irrelevant. 



#168 ensign14

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:52

Some people forget that in a WDC challenging car, your going to have a pretty handy teammate...

 

I refute that statement via the media of Dave Walker and Ricardo Zunino.



#169 E.B.

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:59

Thanks to a mischievous dad, I grew up believing that the reason Dave Walker struggled so much is that he was having trouble juggling his Lotus F1 commitments with his duties as lead singer of Fleetwood Mac.

#170 MSC98

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:17

I am still not convinced by Schumacher.  Narrow talent window.  Short sprints between pitstops then only Hakkinen was close.  Neutral regulations and tyre management skills being required and he was midfield. 

 

Lets get this straight. Schumacher has narrow talent window because he managed to be competitive driving cars like 191 (age 22), B192, B195, F300, F2002, F1-248, W03 (age 43)? Compare each off these cars and tell me their similarities and differences. Furthermore, compare regulations of 1991 with 1998 and 2012. Also, guy who drove F1 car for the first time in his life and was immediately few tenths of a second from the best lap has a narrow talent window? And yeah, I bet it was piece of cake driving cars in that short sprints close to their qualifying pace for entire race.

What are those neutral regulations that are specific for years between 2010-2012 that required skills? And please don't talk about tire management skills in Pirelli era. They only made complete mockery out of F1 in past few years.

 

Here are some examples of narrow talent window.

Spa 1992, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2002, 2011, 2012, Barcelona 1994, 1996, Suzuka 1998, 2000, Estoril 1993, Indianapolis 2000, Hungary 1998, Monaco 1993, 1997, Imola 2003, 2005, 2006, Magny-Cours 2004, Montreal 1998, 2003, 2005, 2011, China 2006, Interlagos 2006, Nurburgring 1995, Monza 1991, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2011.

And there are plenty more examples. Look at least some of those races. Completely ignore all the numbers around Schumacher, ignore all of his titles, all of his victories, all of his podiums, fastest laps, poles. Just look at those races. It weren't the numbers that made him one of the best, it was his driving.

 

Schumacher is not perfect, like any human being he has his flaws, but no one, and I repeat, no one can question his racing ability and his position as one of, if not the best of all time.
 
J. M. Fangio, Alberto Ascari, Jack Brabham, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher. I consider these nine men as the top drivers of Formula 1 because of theirs driving abilities, achievements and overall impact they had on this sport.
So to get back on topic, no, Rosberg and Ricciardo are not tier 1 and they probably won't be. From current generation only Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso have that capability. Only time will tell will they reach it.


#171 bub

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:25

IMO if Hamilton raced along side Alsono at Ferrari he would not shine so bright.

 

IMO if Alonso had Hamilton or Rosberg or even Ricciardo or Hulkenberg Alongside him at Ferrari, Alonso would not shine so bright.



#172 tkulla

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:58

IMO if Alonso had Hamilton or Rosberg or even Ricciardo or Hulkenberg Alongside him at Ferrari, Alonso would not shine so bright.

 

I don't know if that's fair. That's what a lot of people thought about Kimi going there this year.

 

That said, I do believe that Alonso is overrated, but only because he is rated so incredibly highly.



#173 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 13:08

I think the verdict is in on Rosberg.  He's good enough to eek out a championship this year if the circumstances fall his way, but he's not the kind of drivers struggling teams would be falling over themselves to snap up to better their fortunes.  He beat Hamilton three times this season, but every one of those times has an asterisk next to it.

 

The jury is still out on Ricciardo.  He could be very good indeed, or it could be that Vettel's slump is making him look better than he is.  In this day and age, with the cars as close as they are, even the best drivers have off seasons.  We'll need a couple of years to make an informed judgment here.



#174 mardmarium

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 13:36

IMO if Alonso had Hamilton or Rosberg or even Ricciardo or Hulkenberg Alongside him at Ferrari, Alonso would not shine so bright.

 

I have doubts about what Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Rosberg could do against Alonso, driving the F14 T. Raikkonen was the third best driver in the grid last year (not 10 years ago) according to those who truly know about it. He has been considered a consistent driver and now he is spinning? Alonso saying that he tries to pass Hulkenberg in very strange places to try to get the overtaking done?…Really, how hard is this Ferrari car to drive? 
 
Opinions about drivers are usually influenced by the car they drive; this is the reference we have after all. I am quite impressed with Ricciardo, quick, consistent, adaptable, fast learner… driving the RB10. There´s probably something special here but tire one driver? I don´t know, I would need more time and information (knowing what he could do driving the F14 T would help, for example).
 
Rosberg is fast and consistent, really good driver, tire one driver?, I don´t know, even if he beats Hamilton this year (Button beat Hamilton and he isn´t usually considered a tire one driver), but maybe he really impress me during this year and I change my mind, even if he lose against Hamilton. 
 
With Hulkenberg I am not as objective as I should be; I really like this driver. Trying to be objective, I really don´t know, not enough information.


#175 bub

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 14:21

 

I have doubts about what Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Rosberg could do against Alonso, driving the F14 T. Raikkonen was the third best driver in the grid last year (not 10 years ago) according to those who truly know about it. He has been considered a consistent driver and now he is spinning? Alonso saying that he tries to pass Hulkenberg in very strange places to try to get the overtaking done?…Really, how hard is this Ferrari car to drive? 
 
Opinions about drivers are usually influenced by the car they drive; this is the reference we have after all. I am quite impressed with Ricciardo, quick, consistent, adaptable, fast learner… driving the RB10. There´s probably something special here but tire one driver? I don´t know, I would need more time and information (knowing what he could do driving the F14 T would help, for example).
 
Rosberg is fast and consistent, really good driver, tire one driver?, I don´t know, even if he beats Hamilton this year (Button beat Hamilton and he isn´t usually considered a tire one driver), but maybe he really impress me during this year and I change my mind, even if he lose against Hamilton. 
 
With Hulkenberg I am not as objective as I should be; I really like this driver. Trying to be objective, I really don´t know, not enough information.

 

 

I'm not saying Alonso is not a great driver or is not doing a great job, I think he is the joint best driver on the grid. 

 

Kimi is quite sensitive and can struggle more than others when the the car is not to his liking. I think Alonso might not shine so bright if Ricciardo, Rosberg etc were his teammate simply because they might be able to push him closer than his recent teammates due to being really good in qualifying, not as sensitive to the car as Kimi, more consistent than Massa etc. They are not WDC's and prior to this year they were not as highly rated as Kimi so if they matched or beat Alonso, he would not be shining quite so bright even though he would still be considered a top driver.

 

I simply think Alonso would look less impressive if he was being matched or beaten by a teammate in the same way Vettel hasn't looked quite so impressive against Ricciardo so far, Kimi against Massa, Hamilton against Rosberg last year, Alonso himself against Hamilton etc. I would not be surprised if Rosberg, Ricciardo were competitive with Alonso in a similar way to how they have been with their current teammates. I also would not be surprised if Hulk was similarly competitive or if Hamilton did as well against him as he did last time or even better. That's my personal take on things.


Edited by bub, 10 June 2014 - 14:22.


#176 mardmarium

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:06

I'm not saying Alonso is not a great driver or is not doing a great job, I think he is the joint best driver on the grid. 

 

Kimi is quite sensitive and can struggle more than others when the the car is not to his liking. I think Alonso might not shine so bright if Ricciardo, Rosberg etc were his teammate simply because they might be able to push him closer than his recent teammates due to being really good in qualifying, not as sensitive to the car as Kimi, more consistent than Massa etc. They are not WDC's and prior to this year they were not as highly rated as Kimi so if they matched or beat Alonso, he would not be shining quite so bright even though he would still be considered a top driver.

 

I simply think Alonso would look less impressive if he was being matched or beaten by a teammate in the same way Vettel hasn't looked quite so impressive against Ricciardo so far, Kimi against Massa, Hamilton against Rosberg last year, Alonso himself against Hamilton etc. I would not be surprised if Rosberg, Ricciardo were competitive with Alonso in a similar way to how they have been with their current teammates. I also would not be surprised if Hulk was similarly competitive or if Hamilton did as well against him as he did last time or even better. That's my personal take on things.

 

I understand you, what you say is a possibility, but I really don´t know, I have doubts. Of course, Raikkonen adaptability issues haven´t helped him and Ricciardo for example seems to be quite adaptable, but Alonso is adaptable, I would say really adaptable. Alonso has lots of problems with this car, he isn´t comfortable at all, so I think, if someone as good, experienced and adaptable as Alonso is, fights this car constantly, what could Ricciardo do, for example? Even if he outqualifies Alonso (and I don´t know how often he could outqualify Alonso, this is an unknown field, at least basing my opinion on evidence). What evidence do I have in order to know how good Ricciardo could be under those circumstances? I cannot extrapolate from his current situation at Red Bull, different car, different team, different teammate... This is the problem I have to consider him as tier one driver, I don´t have evidence. Hamilton for example has beaten strong teammates, he has gone to a new team and has beaten his really good teammate, he has outqualified different teammates (highly rated teammates). Alonso has beaten different teammates, has adapted extremely fast to different teams, cars, teammates, rules... I dare say Alonso and Hamilton are tier one drivers, I don´t dare say Ricciardo and Rosberg are tier one drivers.

 

Anyway, I respect your opinion, you can be right (if not beating Alonso they could be closer than Raikkonen is), it´s just that I have doubts, I cannot avoid this feeling (and I often think of Ferrari situation, so I often have this kind of doubts)



#177 Thomas99

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:17

Rosberg has still been generally slower than Hamilton and beaten only beaten him in 1 race when Hamilton's car actually finishes.

 

Ricciardo if anything looks faster than Vettel so far.



#178 chipmcdonald

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:27

I think Vettel was flattered by absolutely trusting the double diffuser.  Maybe not so much Ricciardo being "better", or Webber being "worse". 


Edited by chipmcdonald, 10 June 2014 - 15:28.


#179 AnR

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:27

Ricciardo is such a caracter, you could hear the crowd cheering on him, I hope he becomes a WDC in the future.

Nico has proven just as fast as Lewis and has now outqualified him 2 in a row and Lewis has not been able to overtake Nico, so he will grow with this.

 

And both are up against drivers who has had the fastest car many times.



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#180 pokerkid

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:29

I'm not saying Alonso is not a great driver or is not doing a great job, I think he is the joint best driver on the grid. 

 

Kimi is quite sensitive and can struggle more than others when the the car is not to his liking. I think Alonso might not shine so bright if Ricciardo, Rosberg etc were his teammate simply because they might be able to push him closer than his recent teammates due to being really good in qualifying, not as sensitive to the car as Kimi, more consistent than Massa etc. They are not WDC's and prior to this year they were not as highly rated as Kimi so if they matched or beat Alonso, he would not be shining quite so bright even though he would still be considered a top driver.

 

I simply think Alonso would look less impressive if he was being matched or beaten by a teammate in the same way Vettel hasn't looked quite so impressive against Ricciardo so far, Kimi against Massa, Hamilton against Rosberg last year, Alonso himself against Hamilton etc. I would not be surprised if Rosberg, Ricciardo were competitive with Alonso in a similar way to how they have been with their current teammates. I also would not be surprised if Hulk was similarly competitive or if Hamilton did as well against him as he did last time or even better. That's my personal take on things.

 

According to most people and pundits, Alonso was supposed to look less impressive against Kimi, and look what's happened? Now its the same old excuses, and calls for driver x who will apparently make Alonso look less impressive. It just won't happen unless they hire Lewis and some people need to accept he really is this impressive. Rosberg and Ricciardo look good in fast balanced cars but stick them in that Ferrari and they will be all over the place. Massa was supposed to be one of the worst drivers on the grid according to everyone and damaged from his accident, yet he goes to a new team, is matching his young rated team mate and had racing winning pace last weekend for the first time in 4 years. What does that tell you?



#181 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:53

Rosberg is a tier-one driver (and not only since 2013 or 2014). He is on a similar level like Hamilton and Hamilton is f.a.s.t. Before that, Rosberg had beaten Schumacher. Yeah yeah, Schumacher was probably not as good as 10 years ago but, on the other hand, people should stop assuming that it was such an easy task and that almost everybody would've achieved the same against post-2006 Schumacher.

Ricciardo wasn't clearly better than Vergne in the races (and who is Vergne, btw?). Now, some good results in qualifying and races but Vettel had some car issues in two or three qualifyings and was it really Vettel's fault that he didn't win in Canada or had it more strategical reasons and Ricciardo was schooled by Vettel on race day in Monaco (and it's not a Vettel fan who's writing this).

I guess, if both of their teammates didn't have issues with the car, then Rosberg could either beat or put Hamilton under pressure more often than Ricciardo regarding Vettel.

#182 bub

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:55

According to most people and pundits, Alonso was supposed to look less impressive against Kimi, and look what's happened? Now its the same old excuses, and calls for driver x who will apparently make Alonso look less impressive. It just won't happen unless they hire Lewis and some people need to accept he really is this impressive. Rosberg and Ricciardo look good in fast balanced cars but stick them in that Ferrari and they will be all over the place. Massa was supposed to be one of the worst drivers on the grid according to everyone and damaged from his accident, yet he goes to a new team, is matching his young rated team mate and had racing winning pace last weekend for the first time in 4 years. What does that tell you?

 

It tells me these cars and tyres are different to the previous recent cars and tyres and that Bottas is obviously not yet as good as Alonso. Some drivers are struggling more than others with the new cars and tyres, different cars and tyres suit different drivers to different degrees. Kimi and Ferrari have said that he is not comfortable in the car and Kimi is known to sometimes struggle mre than others when this is the case. 

 

Ricciardo and Rosberg have had cars as bad or worse than the Ferrari for most of their careers so I'm not so sure they would struggle too much in the Ferrari.

 

I already said I think Alonso is the best on the grid, I just think some others could be more competitive with him than Kimi or Massa because of certain attributes they possess/weaknesses they don't possess. Ricciardo and Rosberg (also Hulk, Hamilton and Vettel) are drivers I think could do a better job than Kimi has done so far at Ferrari. It is still early days though, Kimi could improve or maybe not.



#183 Thomas99

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:59

Outperforming a car that can challenge the RBR with 160BHP less than it should have... I'm not sure if Rosberg is doing that. Hamilton has been faster than him last two weekends.

 

The second Ricciardo wasn't stuck behind Perez he was over a second per lap faster.



#184 Thomas99

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 15:59

I think Vettel was flattered by absolutely trusting the double diffuser.  Maybe not so much Ricciardo being "better", or Webber being "worse". 

 

Webber wouldn't be doing what Ricciardo is doing.



#185 pokerkid

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:06

It tells me these cars and tyres are different to the previous recent cars and tyres and that Bottas is obviously not yet as good as Alonso. Some drivers are struggling more than others with the new cars and tyres, different cars and tyres suit different drivers to different degrees. Kimi and Ferrari have said that he is not comfortable in the car and Kimi is known to sometimes struggle mre than others when this is the case. 

 

 

Tyres and cars change every year, yet Kimi was strong the last two years, so I guess Alonso is just lucky that as soon as Kimi joins Ferrari the tyres and cars just happened to suit Kimi so badly?

 

 

 

Ricciardo and Rosberg have had cars as bad or worse than the Ferrari for most of their careers so I'm not so sure they would struggle too much in the Ferrari.

 

 

And in those bad cars they had mediocre team mates who could not test them. Massa and Kimi were experienced proven race winners, much much more established than Ricciardo and Rosberg who have really done little in comparison, and look how much they struggled in these Ferrari's so there is no reason to think they would struggle less. It is very easy to assume they would be better, just as it was with Kimi, but everything changes when you have to sit and drive a pig car like the Ferrari's.



#186 Spillage

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:21

Everybody has their own interpretations of 'tier one', so it isn't really a question anyone can answer with any degree of objectivity. What does 'tier one' mean anyway? I'd say both are better than more than half of the grid, but neither is as good as Fernando Alonso. So where does that put them? Last year I wouldn't have rated Hamilton as highly as Vettel; this year Vettel has been struggling. So where does that put Ricciardo's achievements? We just do not know.

 

What the Canadian Grand Prix did convince me, however, is that Rosberg can be World Champion this year. He's going to need a bit of luck, but here and in Monaco he demonstrates the steel that he will need to beat Hamilton. I liked what he did at the start to Hamilton, I liked the fact that he pushed his luck skipping over the chicane and I liked that he managed that car to the end. If Hamilton's head is in a good place he will beat Rosberg every week. If Rosberg can make him feel uncomfortable, angry or even cheated then he is eminently beatable. So far Nico's doing a good job managing that, and pushing his luck wherever he can. If he wins the title this year, that'll be how he achieves it.



#187 Afterburner

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:21

Rosberg is a tier-one driver (and not only since 2013 or 2014). He is on a similar level like Hamilton and Hamilton is f.a.s.t. Before that, Rosberg had beaten Schumacher. Yeah yeah, Schumacher was probably not as good as 10 years ago but, on the other hand, people should stop assuming that it was such an easy task and that almost everybody would've achieved the same against post-2006 Schumacher.

Ricciardo wasn't clearly better than Vergne in the races (and who is Vergne, btw?). Now, some good results in qualifying and races but Vettel had some car issues in two or three qualifyings and was it really Vettel's fault that he didn't win in Canada or had it more strategical reasons and Ricciardo was schooled by Vettel on race day in Monaco (and it's not a Vettel fan who's writing this).

I guess, if both of their teammates didn't have issues with the car, then Rosberg could either beat or put Hamilton under pressure more often than Ricciardo regarding Vettel.

No joke--I suppose I'll just check outside and see if the world has ended. :lol:

#188 bub

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:24

Tyres and cars change every year, yet Kimi was strong the last two years, so I guess Alonso is just lucky that as soon as Kimi joins Ferrari the tyres and cars just happened to suit Kimi so badly?

 

 

It clearly seems to be the case. If you think the 2014 Ferrari and Pirelli's suit Kimi as much as the 2012/2013 Lotus and Pirelli's then I disagree. I think Kimi is not quite as good at qualifying and struggles with needing a car to be more to his liking compared to Ricciado, Rosberg and the others I mentioned.

 

 

And in those bad cars they had mediocre team mates who could not test them. Massa and Kimi were experienced proven race winners, much much more established than Ricciardo and Rosberg who have really done little in comparison, and look how much they struggled in these Ferrari's so there is no reason to think they would struggle less. It is very easy to assume they would be better, just as it was with Kimi, but everything changes when you have to sit and drive a pig car like the Ferrari's.

 

I have the opposite view. I don't think there is any reason to think they would struggle as much. Massa simply doesn't seem that good and Kimi has some history of struggling more than some when the car is not how he likes it. This doesn't seem to apply to Ricciardo, Rosberg and the others mentioned.

It is equally easy to assume Ricciardo and Rosberg would do no better than Kimi and Massa just because Kimi and Massa have had better cars over the years and more opportunities to win more races and prove more.


Edited by bub, 10 June 2014 - 17:21.


#189 Thomas99

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:24

 Last year I wouldn't have rated Hamilton as highly as Vettel; this year Vettel has been struggling. So where does that put Ricciardo's achievements? We just do not know.

 

 

 

If you took Vettel's team mate out of the equasion people would say the car is just bad. If he had Kimi next to him he'd probably be beating Kimi and everyone would be saying how good he is.



#190 Alfisti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:56

Webber wouldn't be doing what Ricciardo is doing.

Well except he did, twice. In 2010 and 2012 he led Vettel at this time of year, no coincidence these were the years that the DD was less effective. No doubt Vettel was the better driver but Mark just could not hit the gas to get the car settled, he found it so odd (cos it is) and to a degree I think Vettel is struggling with the opposite right now. 



#191 Alfisti

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:57

Ricciardo wasn't clearly better than Vergne in the races (and who is Vergne, btw?). 

 

Yes, yes he was. By Mid 2013 he was pounding Vergne, basically after Canada. 



#192 lbennie

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:15

Ricciardo wasn't clearly better than Vergne in the races (and who is Vergne, btw?). 

 

This is just not true. It was probably one of the biggest gaps between team mates on the grid raw speed wise.

 

Vergne is a fantastic talent btw.



#193 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:19

No joke--I suppose I'll just check outside and see if the world has ended. :lol:


Why your surprised reaction? I've always been objective. If, for example, he has an exceptional qualifying, I'll mention it (Hungary 2011).

If Vettel will also have a great list of results against champion or future champion teammates like Hamilton or Alonso did or if Vettel will also almost win the title with a highly inferior car like Alonso, then I will be one of the first who will acknowledge that.

#194 MetallurgicalHedonist

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:30

This is just not true. It was probably one of the biggest gaps between team mates on the grid raw speed wise.

Vergne is a fantastic talent btw.


Vergne and Ricciardo did nothing much more sensational in 2012-2013 than what Alguersuari and Buemi did in 2010-2011 (pointswise or a few top10 qualifying results wise). Are Alguersuari and Buemi considered "fantastic talents"?

#195 Thomas99

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:34

Vergne and Ricciardo did nothing much more sensational in 2012-2013 than what Alguersuari and Buemi did in 2010-2011 (pointswise or a few top10 qualifying results wise). Are Alguersuari and Buemi considered "fantastic talents"?

 

Depends if you think the 2012-2013 Toro Rosso was as good as the 2009-2011 Toro Rosso.



#196 Rinehart

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:44

I refute that statement via the media of Dave Walker and Ricardo Zunino.

Exceptions prove rules! 



#197 sennafan24

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:05

Vergne and Ricciardo did nothing much more sensational in 2012-2013 than what Alguersuari and Buemi did in 2010-2011 (pointswise or a few top10 qualifying results wise). Are Alguersuari and Buemi considered "fantastic talents"?

Is the crux of your point basically that Red Bull and Toro Rosso are overpowered cars that flatter average/weaker drivers? 

 

Vergne is a fantastic talent btw.

Honest question

 

Were you saying this 6 months ago, or are you just saying it now to make Seb/D.R look better.

 

 

Yes, yes he was. By Mid 2013 he was pounding Vergne, basically after Canada. 

This



#198 lbennie

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 13:56

I've been saying it for ages. He looked mega in FR & F3


Edited by lbennie, 11 June 2014 - 13:59.


#199 sennafan24

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 14:08

I've been saying it for ages. He looked mega in FR & F3

Hmmmm

 

I ask because in 2012 both D.R and JEV were lightly regarded from what I recall. Neither really impressed that much at Toro Rosso initially. I speak for what I generally read in the usual places (forums and media)

 

It was only towards the end of 2012 and throughout the 2013 season that D,R's reputation grew. I will be honest, I always maintained that D,R might be a stiffer challenge than Kimi, and could trouble Seb in qualifying, but I never predicted he would being doing this well.


Edited by sennafan24, 11 June 2014 - 14:09.


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#200 Kingshark

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 03:54

IMO if Alonso had Hamilton or Rosberg or even Ricciardo or Hulkenberg Alongside him at Ferrari, Alonso would not shine so bright.

 

Back in late 2009:

"Alonso will not shine so bright now a real top driver like Massa is alongside him"

 

In late 2013:

"Alonso will not shine so bright now a real top driver like Raikkonen is alongside him"

 

 

Some people just don't learn just how good Fernando really is, do they?