68 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

http://www.speedweek...am-am-Ende.html

Hope this doesn't turn out to be true... :/

[Seanspeed]

This is going to be their last year anyways. They made mention before the season that they were going all-in this year, but needed results.

With Marussia's 2 points almost certainly dooming them to be last, I think the writing is on the wall for them. Cant imagine this makes sense for Fernandez anymore. Might just be better to cut the cord now?

[SophieB]

http://www.speedweek...am-am-Ende.html

Hope this doesn't turn out to be true... :/

From translate:
 

The Caterham F1 Team has brought no points since 2010 in the World Cup. Now is even speculated participation of Caterham on Austria-GP is at risk.

In recent days, always sloshed new rumors from Malaysia to Europe. Today is even leaked that the appearance of the Caterham F1 racing team with the pilots Kamui Kobayashi and Marcus Ericsson was not previously guaranteed next weekend at the Red Bull Ring. From budget problems is the question.

Caterham has so far not delivered an opinion on these rumors.

The nested Empire of the two million dollar AirAsia founder Tony Fernandes and Dato Kamarudin Meranun has caused in recent weeks repeatedly hit the headlines.

On May 26, 2014, the newspaper "The Edge Malaysia", Tony Fernandes reported was looking for a buyer who was willing him 350 million pounds (about 430 million euros) for the Caterham Group, including the Formula 1 teams to pay. Fernandes had already brought a document in circulation, in which he listed detailed information about the Formula 1 team to Caterham and Caterham Automotive Technology, has been reported.

Fernandes denied the day after these messages. But it was true that they were looking for investors to finance growth, confirmed the Malaysians.

In Canada GP transpired that there had probably but given the sales negotiations. That being planned Forza Rossa team had shown interest in Caterham, was heard.

[Lights]

If there is speaking of 'missing Austria' then just pull the plug, it's not like it's going to go better after missing a race. But of course it would be better if they can sell the team to new investors. 

[Kristian]

Oh Caterham thought they were playing in the World Cup? No wonder they aren't very good at this F1 thing... 

 

Hopefully they will get bought by someone like Forza Rossa; it would make sesne for Fernandes to lower the asking price to safeguard all his employees. 

Edited by Kristian, 12 June 2014 - 09:36.

[dau]

"Only a rumour...it is speculated...new rumours...talk of...said to...has been rumoured..."

 

Someone's pretty cautious there. Or doesn't really know anything, but still has some pages to fill. Add in some completely irrelevant numbers (Wow, 4.25bn USD. How much is that in Red Bull seasons? Oh wait, that's over a span of twenty years? Calculated by googling the list price of an A320 and multiplying it with 25 and 20?), rehash the old rumour about Caterham Group being for sale, top it off with a Betteridge headline and there you go, another few thousands clicks on the Speedweek site based on nothing but 'rumours' without any sources and with no risk of ever being proven wrong. Because after all, it was just stuff they heard in the paddock, eh?

Edited by dau, 12 June 2014 - 09:43.

[SealTheDiffuser]

"Only a rumour...it is speculated...new rumours...talk of...said to...has been rumoured..."

 

Someone's pretty cautious there. Or doesn't really know anything, but still has some pages to fill. Add in some completely irrelevant numbers (Wow, 4.25bn USD. How much is that in Red Bull seasons? Oh wait, that's over a span of twenty years? Calculated by googling the list price of an A320 and multiplying it with 25 and 20?), rehash the old rumour about Caterham Group being for sale, top it off with a Betteridge headline and there you go, another few thousands clicks on the Speedweek site based on nothing but 'rumours' without any sources and with no risk of ever being proven wrong. Because after all, it was just stuff they heard in the paddock, eh?

 

oh c'mon

[Petroltorque]

Difficult to know what is going on at Leafield. Since they sacked Smith it does not look as though they have brought significant upgrades for the car. Any potential investors will want to see that the team is capable of improving before sinking money in the effort.

[ensign14]

With Marussia's 2 points almost certainly dooming them to be last, I think the writing is on the wall for them. Cant imagine this makes sense for Fernandez anymore. Might just be better to cut the cord now?

 

One point might be enough to beat Sauber...

[wj_gibson]

Speaking of Sauber, I wonder how far behind Caterham they would really be in the "withdrawing from F1" stakes.

[fisssssi]

If Caterham does quit, would that mean that Bianchi's pass on Kobayashi at Monaco turns out to be the difference between a team succeeding and failing?

If so I can't think of many passing moves with such critical consequences.

[muramasa]

I dont know Speedweek's credibility and track record, but I just have to point out that recently they fabricated "rumor in Japan" in the article about Honda buying Mclaren stake (see Honda thread).

Wouldnt surprise me if Caterham fold or Honda acquire Mclaren stake eventually, but even so that hardly makes speedweek right.

[FredF1]

If Caterham does quit, would that mean that Bianchi's pass on Kobayashi at Monaco turns out to be the difference between a team succeeding and failing?

If so I can't think of many passing moves with such critical consequences.

 

 

I recall Lotus - as in the original team not today's broke pretenders complaining bitterly at Monza 1994 about Irvine taking out Johnny Herbert. Lotus had put all their eggs in the one car, err, basket with lots of go faster bits in order to drum up sponsorship with a good result only for The Swerve to put the mockers on it.

[dau]

oh c'mon

C'mon what? There's zero information in that article. Only stuff the author claims to have heard. Somewhere. From someone. Stuff that can be summed up as "Maybe they're going bust? Or maybe not?" Even the The Edge Malaysia article was more solid, mentioning an information memorandum circulating in the middle east and an (unnamed) source pointing to the price sought by Fernandes.

 

But this article alleges:

- Caterham could miss Austria ("it is speculated")

- budget problems, whatever that means ("there is talk of")

- there have been sale negotiations in Canada ("it leaked")

- or maybe it was just Forza Rossa 'being interested' ("it was heard")

 

And that's basically it. Plus some more about Fernandes' empire lacking management and being deep in the reds, about how Caterham's Moto2 team would, sorry, 'could' close down in the near future and an irrelevant and, frankly, questionable calculation concerning AirAsia's order volume which is only there to underline how desperately they need money. I find it hard to trust the economic knowledge of someone who thinks that the world's largest A320 customer pays anything even close to the list price found on Google. 

 

That's not to say he couldn't be right of course. After all, it's obvious Caterham is facing difficult times at the moment. But this article looks a lot more like tabloid clickbait than a reliable source of information. I think i'll applaud as soon we start the Austrian GP with 10 teams.

Edited by dau, 12 June 2014 - 12:01.

[mechadaniel]

Well, the Moto 2 team has turned up in Barca ready to race:)

 

https://twitter.com/...032890367475712

 

And with Josh despite the rumours

[Jon83]

If Caterham does quit, would that mean that Bianchi's pass on Kobayashi at Monaco turns out to be the difference between a team succeeding and failing?

If so I can't think of many passing moves with such critical consequences.

 

Desperate stuff.

[Rinehart]

The article is coming from "a rumour from Malaysia" but where is that rumour, other than in that article itself. 

 

Tony maybe wanting to sell the team, is as far as I know Tony deciding he can't compete in F1, not because he's running out of money.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think they're definitely running out of money.

[FullThrottleF1]

...and talent.

[Fastcake]

I'm not sure Caterham are going to fail to turn up at Austria, but I have no doubt they're in trouble. There have been too many reports about financial problems at the team now to assume they're all wrong.

[Disgrace]

If this report was accurate, surely it puts the Mark Smith dismissal in a different light. A technical reshuffle is usually a long term move, but perhaps either or both parties realised there was no such long term.

[redreni]

If you miss a race, that's it, isn't it? I thought F1 had provisions in place for massive fines for non-attendance at World Championship events. Presumably if you go bust, they can't make you pay those, but if you don't pay them, you can't come back.

 

I'm afriad I'm bored with that lot now, anyway. They're just not good enough. Never have been. Who'd miss them?

[SenorSjon]

They seemed to be the first ones to challenge the midfield, but 2013 was bad and 2014 till now even worse.

[Seanspeed]

One point might be enough to beat Sauber...

Haha. Good point.

[Petroltorque]

Yes but getting that point could prove elusive as the Sauber has more intrinsic pace than the Caterham. Watching the Caterham in Canada the car was going from oversteer to understeer from corner to corner. Classic shopping trolley behaviour. As for Mark Smith, every car he has been lead design on has been a dog going back 10 years. The RS24 and RB2 being cases in point. Illustrates that Fernandes had to rely to heavily on the advice of others. IIRC Smith was Gascoigne's man.

[Mercedestorque1]

IMO i always had the feeling that Fernande's was too occupied with the premier league,his Airline etc he didn't strike me as a guy that had passion for this sport.

[wj_gibson]

They seemed to be the first ones to challenge the midfield, but 2013 was bad and 2014 till now even worse.

 

They've been consistently behind Marussia since Singapore 2012 and only lucked into 10th place in the 2012 WCC at Brazil.

[Nemo1965]

It is really strange that if you look at the technical structure of Caterham - the money, the people that work there, the facilities - they should beat Marussia, Like the poster above said: they lucked into 10th place in 2012.

 

I don't know the organisation, I don't know any people who work there, I don't know people who dealt with them... it is a complete mystery how they have managed to manage themselves so badly...

[MikeV1987]

Is the road car company up for sale too? i'll pitch in

Edited by MikeV1987, 12 June 2014 - 15:56.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Silly question and I'll probably get put in my place for asking but why not merge with someone like Renault-Lotus? They have the facilites but are lacking budget. 

 

Some sort of soultion like an A team/B team could be worked out? Shared technology, resources etc? Caterham could get the final iteration of the 2014 chassis to use in 2015 etc?

[MikeV1987]

Last season their were rumors of Caterham in talks with Lotus over merging, same with Sauber and Marussia. Could have been BS though.

[Disgrace]

It is really strange that if you look at the technical structure of Caterham - the money, the people that work there, the facilities - they should beat Marussia, Like the poster above said: they lucked into 10th place in 2012.

 

I don't know the organisation, I don't know any people who work there, I don't know people who dealt with them... it is a complete mystery how they have managed to manage themselves so badly...

 

Just replace Caterham with QPR, Marussia with "the drop" and 10th place in 2012 with "promotion" and a familiar pattern emerges.

[dau]

They've been consistently behind Marussia since Singapore 2012 and only lucked into 10th place in the 2012 WCC at Brazil.

They did not luck into 10th place in 2012, it was Marussia which almost lucked into it thanks to that SC in Singapore. Caterham was consistently ahead in 2012. I'd say they were still pretty equal in 2013, but had to deal with that great decision to run two paydrivers while Marussia at least had Bianchi. 

[SonJR]

I think Tony is pulling the plug after this year. Would make sense for Forza Rossa to buy it, saves a lot of shopping elsewhere.

[Nemo1965]

Just replace Caterham with QPR, Marussia with "the drop" and 10th place in 2012 with "promotion" and a familiar pattern emerges.

 

Sorry Disgrace, I am not from the UK. I know QPR is Queens Park Rangers, but the rest evades me. Please explain, otherwise I can't sleep!

[Kingshark]

Blame Bernie's greed and non-existing financial support for smaller teams; no other sport is quite this corrupt.

[loki]

If you miss a race, that's it, isn't it? I thought F1 had provisions in place for massive fines for non-attendance at World Championship events. Presumably if you go bust, they can't make you pay those, but if you don't pay them, you can't come back.

 

I'm afriad I'm bored with that lot now, anyway. They're just not good enough. Never have been. Who'd miss them?

As a team you are obligated to contest an entire season.  If they miss the race they are likely done.  I doubt Fernandez will walk away that easily, he's got too much invested.  A more plausible option would be to wait out this season with minimal outlay and sell to the Romainians

[Disgrace]

Sorry Disgrace, I am not from the UK. I know QPR is Queens Park Rangers, but the rest evades me. Please explain, otherwise I can't sleep!

 

What you said about Caterham easily applies to Tony Fernandes' other sporting baby in that despite the money, the people and the facilities, they are a story of underperformance and their latest achievement required considerable good fortune. The parallels are remarkable.

[Petroltorque]

It never ceases to amaze me how certain people choose to interpret the differing performances of Marussia and Caterham over their previous seasons. If you plot the absolute performance of their respective cars relative to the fastest car ( usually qualifying performances). Marussia's performance differential has been decreasing while Caterham's has been increasing.

 The nexus of any argument is that any perceived performance advantage Caterham might have had in 2012/ 2013 were not STATISCALLY significant. That is; the differences in speed between the teams is not so big that it won't be affected by the vagaries of a race, namely wet conditions or better race strategy.

 IIRC from an Interview Pat Symonds gave in 2012; they had targeted South Korea for their big performance step and better strategy allowed them to achieve that 12th spot in the race. It should be remembered that in the final race in 2012 Glock was bossing 11th place in the race until his car was crippled when Vergne rear ended him under the safety car. So I agree that Caterham eventuaaly Lucked into tenth spot that year but ironically it was a "victory" from which they never recovered. Had they failed to achieve it it might have forced them to address the failings in their design structure rather than papering over them.

[SenorSjon]

Blame Bernie's greed and non-existing financial support for smaller teams; no other sport is quite this corrupt.

 

What other sport gives free millions to contenders then? Premier League soccer? That is rotten to the core as well.

[Nemo1965]

Blame Bernie's greed and non-existing financial support for smaller teams; no other sport is quite this corrupt.

 

I have been very critical of Bernie's handling of the moneything, but Caterham just don't have this excuse to use. As far as I can see, they had the resources to beat at least Marussia and perhaps even Sauber in 2012. But the progress of the team has been very, very meagre.

 

I have a sneaky suspicion - totally unfounded but still - that exactly because that had just that little more money to spend than Marussia and just that little extra glamour, Caterham attracted staff that was either in it for the money and lacked talent, or saw Caterham as a chance to step up to a bigger team. On a much larger scale, this happened at BAR back then too. Marussia perhaps attracted less experienced, less reknowned people but who have talent and real heart for F1.

[taran]

With all this hatred of Fernandez, I just don't see what he did that was so terribly wrong?

 

He hired a technical director who was highly rated if a bit controversial yet certainly the biggest name he could hire at the time. He hired two grand prix winners initially to drive his cars until pay drivers were necessary. And those pay drivers were usually pretty decent with good feeder results, not Chiltonesque slow. He ensured the team had good facilities and the budget should have been enough to put on a decent show.

 

Yet it never gelled. Who can blame him for losing patience and/or interest?

[Knot]

Blame Bernie's greed and non-existing financial support for smaller teams; no other sport is quite this corrupt.

 

Bernie used to be a huge supporter of the minnows, at least in the Minardi days.

 

I wonder what happened...or perhaps he realizes that some things cannot be helped.

[SenorSjon]

Bernie once said it is a bit odd to help fund desperate teams with owners that own companies, multiple estates, private jets, 20+ cars, millions in the bank, etc.

[MikeV1987]

Fernandez knew what he was getting into, Bernie should not be obligated to help fund any team on the grid. 

[taran]

Fernandez knew what he was getting into, Bernie should not be obligated to help fund any team on the grid. 

Then why is he funding Ferrari, Mclaren, Red Bull, Williams and Enstone?

 

The problem remains that funds are distributed unequally and non-transparantly and in a way to favour certain teams. We fans think some teams do a bad job (like Caterham). Maybe they are in fact doing a great job with the actual resources at hand while other well funded teams are doing a poor job with the resources they have. That is why teams like Ferrari are so against a level field....it would take away their ability to spend their way out of trouble.

[MikeV1987]

How does he fund those teams?

 

Well, considering they qualified a second behind Marussia in the last race, i'd wouldn't say they are doing a good job atm.

Edited by MikeV1987, 13 June 2014 - 09:08.

[wj_gibson]

Bernie used to be a huge supporter of the minnows, at least in the Minardi days.

 

I wonder what happened...or perhaps he realizes that some things cannot be helped.

 

Bernie supported Minardi so that he had Paul Stoddart in his pocket. I don't think he shuffled any cash their way pre-2000.

[LuckyStrike1]

How does he fund those teams?

 

Well, considering they qualified a second behind Marussia in the last race, i'd wouldn't say they are doing a good job atm.

 

 

Bernie has through the years helped out a number of F1 teams financially. Some with cash injections and even being part owners for a while and others with prepaid FOM money, extra allocation of FOM money, loans to be paid back through FOM money etc so there's been a number of ways Bernie has helped out teams, even major teams or teams that are big today but has cash flow problems in the past. So that's how he has funded teams. 

 

I'm sure there is some help today as well to some teams in trouble but sooner or later a team will face bankruptcy. 

[Nemo1965]

With all this hatred of Fernandez, I just don't see what he did that was so terribly wrong?

 

He hired a technical director who was highly rated if a bit controversial yet certainly the biggest name he could hire at the time. He hired two grand prix winners initially to drive his cars until pay drivers were necessary. And those pay drivers were usually pretty decent with good feeder results, not Chiltonesque slow. He ensured the team had good facilities and the budget should have been enough to put on a decent show.

 

Yet it never gelled. Who can blame him for losing patience and/or interest?

 

Hatred of Fernandez? Where did you get that from? I did not read it here, on this thread. I think I am - and some other posters too - disappointed that the most promising team of six years ago just failed to perform better. I did not expect Caterham to win Grand Prix by now, but at least to have crept towards the midfield.

 

Like you wrote: 'He ensured the team had good facilities and the budget should have been enough to put on a decent show.' And it did not happen. That does not bode well for future teams. I would like to understand what happened, and in the process of analysing it could happen that people are critical of Fernandez.

Edited by Nemo1965, 13 June 2014 - 10:04.