86 replies to this topic

[Maustinsj]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/27830986

 

Interesting that they were considering Hamilton for 2013, too.

[Tapz63]

He was the villian to me for the last few years, now I just feel a bit sorry for him. Come on Vettel you can beat him.

[grichka]

He is not their priority anymore. They know Daniel is their future and they are 100% behind him, not Sebastian. He will leave at some point, no doubt about that.

[pdac]

They published this:

 

Race Vettel Australia Retired Malaysia 3rd Bahrain 6th China 5th Spain 4th Monaco Retired Canada 3rd

 

But they should have shown this (which explains the problem IMHO):

 

Race Vettel Ricciardo Australia Retired Disqualified Malaysia 3rd Retired Bahrain 6th 4th China 5th 4th Spain 4th 3rd Monaco Retired 3rd Canada 3rd 1st

 

Edit: Should have previewed the post ...

 

Race         Vettel        Ricciardo
Australia    Retired    Disqualified
Malaysia         3rd         Retired
Bahrain          6th             4th
China            5th             4th
Spain            4th             3rd
Monaco       Retired             3rd
Canada           3rd             1st
 

Edited by pdac, 13 June 2014 - 21:23.

[lbennie]

"Furthermore, he thinks the way F1 is going is not the right one - the cars should be monsters, not relatively easy to drive."

 

 

i thought these cars are meant to be harder to drive this year   

[ollebompa]

"Furthermore, he thinks the way F1 is going is not the right one - the cars should be monsters, not relatively easy to drive."


i thought these cars are meant to be harder to drive this year

From what i've heard they are easier then ever.

[Kenstate]

From what i've heard they are easier then ever.

 

tell that to kimi

[ch103]

I would write this off as PR hype pre Austrian GP. 

[bourbon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/27830986

 

Interesting that they were considering Hamilton for 2013, too.

 

The actual article states that Marko said this after the Chinese GP - 3 races ago - and that since then, Seb has regained his speed (for all of the last 3 races, that is true).  Actually Newey was reported to have said this back in April and Marko seems to be trying to get the credit for Sebastian's improvement.

 

 

He is not their priority anymore. They know Daniel is their future and they are 100% behind him, not Sebastian. He will leave at some point, no doubt about that.

 

Why should Sebastian be the priority?  The only priority Seb needed was when his car was slow arse backward and they gave it to him.  If RBR were ever to give Sebastian the shaft, I'm sure he'd take care of it.

 

Now that he has regained his speed, they (including Seb) can help Daniel in the new environment when he needs it while focusing on catching and beating the Mercs. 

 

As for being on the backfoot, Seb is fine - this situation is nothing new; he was behind Mark Webber for the entire year in 2010 and the start of 2012.  Daniel isn't a rookie and with 3.5 years in F1 under his belt, there is no reason why he should not be ahead with his driver/car combo having less issues and up to speed earlier on. 

Edited by bourbon, 14 June 2014 - 00:01.

[Knot]

Helmut Marko's F1 results: 0 points.

 

Sebastian Vettel's F1 results: 1511 points, 4 WDCs. Further:

Most championship points earned in a season^[134] 397 2013 Most podium finishes in a season 17 2011^{[N 1]} Most starts from front row in a season 18 2011 Most wins in a season 13 2013^{[N 2]} Most pole positions in a season 15 2011 Most laps led in a season 739 2011 Most consecutive wins 9 2013 Belgian Grand Prix – 2013 Brazilian Grand Prix Most consecutive Grand Slams 2 2013 Singapore Grand Prix & 2013 Korean Grand Prix^{[N 3]} Most wins from pole position in a season 9 2011^{[N 4]} Youngest driver to drive at a Grand Prix meeting^[135] 19 years, 53 days 2006 Turkish Grand Prix (25 August 2006) Youngest race leader in Formula One, for at least one lap^[136] 20 years, 89 days 2007 Japanese Grand Prix (30 September 2007) Youngest Grand Prix pole position winner^[137] 21 years, 72 days 2008 Italian Grand Prix (13 September 2008) Youngest driver to score a podium position in Formula One^[138] 21 years, 73 days 2008 Italian Grand Prix (14 September 2008) Youngest Grand Prix winner^[137] Youngest driver to score a double (pole position and race win) Youngest driver to score a triple (pole position, race win, and fastest lap) 21 years, 353 days 2009 British Grand Prix (21 June 2009) Youngest driver to score a grand slam (pole position, win, fastest lap, and led every lap) 24 years, 119 days 2011 Indian Grand Prix (30 October 2011) Youngest Formula One World Drivers' Champion^[137] 23 years, 135 days 2010 season (14 November 2010) Youngest World Drivers' Championship runner-up^[136] 22 years, 121 days 2009 season (1 November 2009) Shortest time elapsed before gaining a penalty 6 seconds^[139] 2006 Turkish Grand Prix (25 August 2006) (6 seconds into his career, for speeding in the pit lane)

[Knot]

Oops, formatting died somehow. Anyway, my point is that Marko knows nothing, NOTHING, about stepping up one's game in F1.

 

He needs to STFU.

[shonguiz]

He should take some of his own medicine and stop putting the Renault name into the dust.

[Myrvold]

Oops, formatting died somehow. Anyway, my point is that Marko knows nothing, NOTHING, about stepping up one's game in F1.

 

He needs to STFU.

While I'm not a fan of Helmut Marko at all. I think he is a total *insert word here*!
You need to know at what age he went into F1, what kind of backing and car he had - and why he never got more than 10 entries (9 starts).

Oh, and then, he, together with Gijs Van Lennep still holds the record for most laps completed in the Le Mans 24hrs (together with the Audi #9 of Timo Bernhard, Romain Dumas and Mike Rockenfeller from 2010).

While he might never had the biggest success in F1, he racing career was stopped 10 races in his F1-career, but he did have time to pick up a healthy Le Mans record on the way.

[Juan Kerr]

Oops, formatting died somehow. Anyway, my point is that Marko knows nothing, NOTHING, about stepping up one's game in F1.

 

He needs to STFU.

I suspect that he is not saying this from the point of view of an F1 driver he is saying this from the point of view of a Red Bull racing executive. For example he is probably a lot better than me at spotting handling characteristics of an F1 car whilst watching out on track....even though he's only got one eye and I have two.

[f1RacingForever]

Doubt Vettel really cares. He knows he needs to improve. meh..

[seahawk]

RBR could save a lot of money running Vergne + Ric instead of Vettel. They should do it.

[ensign14]

 

Helmut Marko's F1 results: 0 points.

 

Bit unfair, he was on his way to points when he was half-blinded. 

 

But if we're playing that game, Marko has won Le Mans more than Vettel.  So ner.

[SPBHM]

attempting to compare Marko to Vettel as drivers makes no sense, since Marko is no longer a driver, he is doing his work at something else, maybe you could compare them in the sense of who is doing a better job, Vettel as a driver or Marko as a team member doing whatever he is doing, like bringing Ricciardo to the team or something?

also Marko never had cars as good as Vettel had during his time.

[Cyanide]

Well, I'd say Ricciardo is good enough already to build the team around him. 

 

Vettel's days are numbered if he doesn't step up. He can't just let a newcomer mop the floor with him in his own house. 

[F1matt]

If helmut Marko isn't qualified to discuss Seb Vettel who is? Journalism, message boards, and pundits would be redundant!

Vettel does need to raise his game, his performances and his comments regarding the car and engine haven't been helpful and his team mate has so far convincingly beat him, it shows RB were very loyal to Mark Webber as Vettel had his own way in the team with a vastly superior car to the opposition, he has many doubters despite his four titles and this only fuels their fire.

[Anderis]

RBR could save a lot of money running Vergne + Ric instead of Vettel. They should do it.

They don't need to save money at all.

[sanjiro]

Well, I'd say Ricciardo is good enough already to build the team around him. 

 

Vettel's days are numbered if he doesn't step up. He can't just let a newcomer mop the floor with him in his own house. 

 

 

KR has been slapped around more than this and has less silver in the trophy case... yet people still think he is top tier 

SVs rep is fine

The only people saying this is a problem for SV are the people who never rated him anyway

 

Mostly people who are just pissed it was not their fave driver in the RBR over the last 4 years

[BobbyRicky]

Well, I'd say Ricciardo is good enough already to build the team around him. 

 

Vettel's days are numbered if he doesn't step up. He can't just let a newcomer mop the floor with him in his own house. 

 

What? He is still the only driver on the grid with four titles, i doubt he'll be gone before he decides to retire.

[maverick69]

Marko makes a fair point...... although I'm a little suprised that he's come out and said it.

 

So me thinks that Seb may well be chucking his toys out of the pram behind the scenes...... or took up the option with Ferrari. I'll ask my mate.

 

Anyways. I also agree that this does fuel the fire that Seb is a one-trick pony. He argues that the cars should be "beasts" and the like...... which is odd considering he spent the past 4 years driving a slot-car....... A car that produced so much downforce they had to drive at 80% a lot of the time because it would make its tyers go pop if they didn't........ 

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

KR has been slapped around more than this and has less silver in the trophy case... yet people still think he is top tier

Nobody can imagine how the Vettel is almost winning a WDC with a bullsh*t car as Raikkonen did in 2003.

Furthermore, Raikkonen managed to beat a proven speedbeast like Montoya. I don't think that compared to him someone like Webber (who was as convincingly beaten by Vettel) is considered higher than Montoya.

If all that happened too much in the past for your taste:

And then, Raikkonen became third in the championship after two years of non-F1 activities in the probably third or fourth-best car.

It is really not hard to imagine why Raikkonen still is considered top tier...

[kosmos]

Drivers are expendable for RB, they know what kind of cars they produce and how good are the drivers they have, the fact that this kind of stuff is out there, tells you a lot of Vettel and RB.

Edited by kosmos, 14 June 2014 - 10:53.

[Cyanide]

KR has been slapped around more than this and has less silver in the trophy case... yet people still think he is top tier 

SVs rep is fine

The only people saying this is a problem for SV are the people who never rated him anyway

 

Mostly people who are just pissed it was not their fave driver in the RBR over the last 4 years

 

The difference between Vettel and Kimi is that the latter is being beaten by supposedly the best driver on the grid with 2 WDC to his name, while the former is being hammered by basically a nobody. 

 

Let's not compared two completely different scenarios. 

[Thomas99]

The difference between Vettel and Kimi is that the latter is being beaten by supposedly the best driver on the grid with 2 WDC to his name, while the former is being hammered by basically a nobody. 

 

Let's not compared two completely different scenarios. 

 

Vettel was also a nobody too until he spent 5 years in Newey Red Bulls and now he's a somebody.

 

Ricciardo showed plenty of potential in the midfiel and now he's one of the highest rated drivers in the paddock after some time in a front running car. Everyone starts as a nobody.

[Cyanide]

Vettel was also a nobody too until he spent 5 years in Newey Red Bulls and now he's a somebody.

 

Ricciardo showed plenty of potential in the midfiel and now he's one of the highest rated drivers in the paddock after some time in a front running car. Everyone starts as a nobody.

 

Makes no difference to what I wrote 15 minutes ago. 

 

Ricciardo doesn't have the experience and caliber of Alonso. Being beaten by a beginner vs. being beaten by a veteran - which do you think is more shameful?

[mattt]

Let Seb feel what Mark have felt all this years.

[Thomas99]

Makes no difference to what I wrote 15 minutes ago. 

 

Ricciardo doesn't have the experience and caliber of Alonso. Being beaten by a beginner vs. being beaten by a veteran - which do you think is more shameful?

 

Of course, but Kimi isn't a top driver anymore. The top drivers are the Red Bull pair, Merc pair and Alonso.

[Cyanide]

Of course, but Kimi isn't a top driver anymore. The top drivers are the Red Bull pair, Merc pair and Alonso.

 

Oh? Didn't realize there's an official FIA tier book where it states he isn't one anymore. 

[AlmightyGod]

They published this:

 

Race Vettel Australia Retired Malaysia 3rd Bahrain 6th China 5th Spain 4th Monaco Retired Canada 3rd

 

But they should have shown this (which explains the problem IMHO):

 

Race Vettel Ricciardo Australia Retired Disqualified Malaysia 3rd Retired Bahrain 6th 4th China 5th 4th Spain 4th 3rd Monaco Retired 3rd Canada 3rd 1st

 

Edit: Should have previewed the post ...

 

Race         Vettel        Ricciardo
Australia    Retired    Disqualified
Malaysia         3rd         Retired
Bahrain          6th             4th
China            5th             4th
Spain            4th             3rd
Monaco       Retired             3rd
Canada           3rd             1st
 

I used to give Vettel some benefit of doubt but looking at this side-by-side illustration, neither of them has had more non-score than the other. So Seb needs to get his act together. I know there were races where he had problems but in the end the result is what will go in the history books.

[WitnessX]

I used to give Vettel some benefit of doubt but looking at this side-by-side illustration, neither of them has had more non-score than the other. So Seb needs to get his act together. I know there were races where he had problems but in the end the result is what will go in the history books.

Indeed, he looks a bit sad without the "funny noises" coming out the car and without his rear end blowing.

 

Perhaps he would do better on a diat based on brussel sprouts, raw onions and beans.  

[sennafan24]

There is a line in a song by Enya that sums up this situation perfectly

 

"Who knows, only time"

 

1. D.R could become a top driver, he is showing the signs. Much like I now consider Alonso's 2007 campaign to be impressive relative to Hamilton, I may determine in 5 years time that Seb did very well against D.R relatively speaking. 

 

2. This is a 7 race sample. Webber had a certain amount of success in early 2012 over Seb, which turned to dust once Seb became dialed in. The same situation could occur here, and Seb's recent performances could be forgiven.

 

One thing we have learned is that Seb can still be beat. In 2013 at times he looked immortal in the R.B. I think myself and others were guilty of slightly overstating his talent during last year (fans are naturally fickle). Do not get me wrong, 2013 is as dominant/flawless a campaign as you will find (driver of the year in my book), but it only highlighted Seb's talent to a limited degree.

 

I still rate Seb very highly, despite this sight blip (I never considered Lewis to be a tier 2 driver after his dismal run of form in the 2nd half of 2011, so I have to be consistent). Only time will reveal how good he is overall.

 

Enya is a genius 

Edited by sennafan24, 14 June 2014 - 13:25.

[Maustinsj]

Enya is a genius

This is certainly something I didn't think I'd see in this forum!

[RonnyRonny]

Part of the problem is that his team mate has stepped up massively, last time he had these kind of issues was in 2010.

Edited by RonnyRonny, 14 June 2014 - 13:50.

[911]

I would expect Marko to provide some type of feedback like this to Vettel, so I'm not sure if this comment really surprises anyone.

[ollebompa]

This is not uncommon, he got the same last year from Marko.

[apoka]

Wasn't this quote made quite some weeks ago? In the past 3 races (I believe the comment was made before that) Ric and Vettel were pretty much equal on performance, so he has raised his game already and we'll see whether he can raise it further. Ric is driving on a very high level with basically no error all season so far, which sets the bar very high for Vettel and that's also a reason why Vettel cannot just compensate for some of the car/engine issues he had. (You could argue that generally in 2014 all the drivers seem very close if you look at the gaps between team mates - I didn't analyse all those things in detail but a few posters did so after some races/qualies.)

 

[tghik]

Enya is a genius 

ha ha good one

 

I think the comment was recent, for monaco race, when Vettel got out of the car in practice it was evident by body langauge the is an ice wall between them now. Also during Canadian weekend, Marko was in the hiding mode.

Edited by tghik, 14 June 2014 - 17:07.

[2014wdc]

the problem is what if this is the max Seb can...

[Briz]

the problem is what if this is the max Seb can...

 

I doubt it's his max but anyway it doesn't even matter - even if he raises his game through the season and does some magic later on like almost every year so far, we now know for sure that he can often have big issues adapting to a new car. That means every 1-2 years he will have a suboptimal start of the season which in turn means he isn't quite the championship monster I personally believed he is. Yes he will be concentrated and almost mistake free every single race, his racecraft is imho one of the best in the field now, but when he doesn't have the pace in 3-4 of the first 7 races of the season that just can't be erased by later success. Even if he wins the title (2012) it means he didn't perform well that season. I still like him, he's a real fighter and I want to see him do well, but can't really let this slide and not reevaluate him.

[Briz]

Oh and actually 2014wdc is right in a way, this is most probably the max Seb can do at the moment

[Jon83]

He is not their priority anymore. They know Daniel is their future and they are 100% behind him, not Sebastian. He will leave at some point, no doubt about that.

 

I'd love to know how you've worked out that they aren't 100% behind Vettel. 

[Masteroftheuniverse]

He is not their priority anymore. They know Daniel is their future and they are 100% behind him, not Sebastian. He will leave at some point, no doubt about that.

 

I would hope this is a joke post. Nobody in their right mind would give up on a guy who's just won 4 consecutive titles, form is temporary, class is permanent. Ricciardo just happens to have adapted to the new cars quicker than Vettel has, because the Toro Rosso never had the grip that the Red Bull had, so it's less of a drastic change.

[Thomas99]

I would hope this is a joke post. Nobody in their right mind would give up on a guy who's just won 4 consecutive titles, form is temporary, class is permanent. Ricciardo just happens to have adapted to the new cars quicker than Vettel has, because the Toro Rosso never had the grip that the Red Bull had, so it's less of a drastic change.

 

You speak like you know for certain this is a temporary thing and will revert.

[Masteroftheuniverse]

You speak like you know for certain this is a temporary thing and will revert.

 

It probably will, no way is Ricciardo a better driver than a 4 time world champion. He's better than Webber was, but Vettel will surely adapt soon.

[Thomas99]

It probably will, no way is Ricciardo a better driver than a 4 time world champion. He's better than Webber was, but Vettel will surely adapt soon.

Vettel is a 4x champion because he spent time in Newey's dominant Red Bull's, had that been Ricciardo and not Vettel parnered with Webber he would probably be a 4x champion too.

[Masteroftheuniverse]

Vettel is a 4x champion because he spent time in Newey's dominant Red Bull's, had that been Ricciardo and not Vettel parnered with Webber he would probably be a 4x champion too.

 

It's all well and good having the machinery, you still have to use it, and he did with devastating consequences. You can't honestly believe that Ricciardo is a better driver than Vettel, based on 7-8 races, and with Vettel being plagued with reliability issues this season. 

 

On that logic, i can claim that Rosberg is a better driver than Hamilton (I loathe Hamilton, but anyone can see he's better than Rosberg)...

 

I see that defending Vettel seems to be a big no-no on this forum...

Edited by Masteroftheuniverse, 15 June 2014 - 14:28.